Magic Pie III stops after rainy weather

[Ernie_13]

Hi guys 

If there is anybody who would be able to help, I will be very thankful.

I used my MP III front wheel in rainy weather (as GM proofs they are full waterproof). After few hours, suddenly it stopped to react on throttle, even lights on throttle were ON. And wheel had small resistant when I wanted to turn it by hand or by pedaling. My MP III is almost new as I ordered it directly from GM-China 2 months ago.

First what I considered was that water got into engine so I let it dry for 2 days in a bit warm garage. But nothing changed. Even fact that turning wheel is a bit hard (stucking). As GM says wheels are waterproof, I was thinking that it could be water in contacts (joints of cables) because from 3 cables to use I use only "throttle" one. But I had all the rest covered by tape. After 3 days of waiting to dry and trying to use even extra throttle I´ve got still no reaction of wheel (even lights on throttle were ON). So I decided to open wheel to see if there is water. I found out that inside it was dry and important parts were covered by silicon. Only water I found was on the wall of one of covers. (opposite side to build-in controller) But nothing on wires, axle or controller.

Inside of the wheel nothing seemed to be damaged. I could NOT get into controller because even I removed screws the cover was like glued and it seemed to be easy damaged if I would use power. Any idea how to open it??? As well I totally could not move with black screws on cover wall of the engine which are for accessing build-in controller without taking wheel apart.

As last option I decided to conect wheel to PC software from GM to reset controller. Below is picture screen what I got when I hit "GET CONFIG". In China they said they set it to 48V/750W. After I tried to set it to "factory settings" but all values remained same. This solution did not help.

Does anybody have any idea where can be the problem and how to fix it? I am not very skilled in electricity. But I have at least voltmeter and know some basics. As well I tried to contact GM-china about help and warranty possibilities, buy there was no response yet (after 2 days). Does anybody have experience with warranty in China? I even can not imagine how it works, because just sending that wheel there and back is similar price like new engine.   

Few pictures:






PS: Is there any technician who is able to fix engines from Golden Motor in Denmark? If yes please contact me. 

[Bikemad]

The controller tends to be stuck on with silicon sealant to seal the joint and will need to be gently prised away from its housing by inserting knife blade or a thin screwdriver tip etc.. Check out Gary's controller swapping video for more details.

The Allen bolt on the internal stator cover should not need to be removed as there are no accessible connections underneath it, but a good quality Allen key should undo it if you really do need to remove the cover.

Alan
 

[Ernie_13]

Thank you very much Alan for information. Do you have any idea what could happen and how can I try to repair it? 

[Bikemad]

It's difficult to say what might have caused the failure, but if the wheel is difficult to turn since the motor stopped working, but it was relatively easy to turn before, it is most likely to be the controller itself that has failed.

Usually it is a simple matter of just replacing the controller assembly to repair the problem, and as yours is only two months old, the controller should be covered by the warranty.

You will need to contact GM direct and explain the problem to them.

Alan
 

[Ernie_13]

I´m trying to speak with GM-China and they are not responding to me. Just 3 days after my 1st email, guy wrote that it may be controller and then stoped to respond at all. Has anybody experience with warranty issues in China?

CONTROLLER UPDATE: I opened it today and can not say that something looks wrong (or burned). So I measured resistance between 3 main cables (yellow-blue-green).
-----------------------------------
BLUE - GREEN = 70kOhm
BLUE - YELLOW = 70kOhm
YELLOW - GREEN = 103kOhm
-----------------------------------
Does it saying anything to anybody? 

[Bikemad]

If that is the resistance measured across the disconnected phase wires something is definitely wrong, as the resistance should be less than 0.5 ohm on each pair of wires, so 70k-103k does not make sense.

I suggest you ignore those meter readings, reassemble the motor, and then check out the lower part of this recent post.

Alan
 

[Rbarciko]

I had a similar issue after owning a MP3 for a few months, then on one day it started to rain heavily half way through my journey to work.

After riding through a few large puddles at low speed the throttle started to stutter, and eventually had no throttle at all.

So it would say they are water resistant, but not water proof from my experience.

I replaced the internal controller with the external BAC-281 controller, which has more features in terms of diagnostics and overrides  : http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/DIY-ebikekit.php

And I mounted it high up in a waterproof holder near the handlebars:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Type-Bicycle-Cycling-Bike-Frame-Pannier-Front-Tube-Black-Bag-For-Cell-Phone/310638757406

[Ernie_13]

So I got problem fixed by replacing of internal control box with new one from GM. After that I sealed everyhting with silicon but have to say that always when is rainy weather my engine still gets crazy (on/off iteself) and needs to wait 1 week until it dry out. Im very surprised why is this happening and same problem has 3 more guys in my city, but only when it is rainy.

[eazyrider]

Hi there,

since i've been there before (trouble with internal controller) I can frankly say that the internal controller is rubbish. the external controller from GM the BAC28.. is good. been using it ever since I never had any problems with it again.
good luck! 

[Bedmountain]

Hi

My 4th internal controller blew on the way home tonight. Hasn't even been near a drop of water over the last couple of months this time. Not inspected it yet but will no doubt find some corrosion there (dipped the whole thing in Corrosion X for this build but has made no difference)
Was just looking at the GM external controllers. Is there any benefit in my buying the 100A version (BAC-0501) over the 50A.
Will I see any performance benefit?

Cheers
Ben

[User1]

Having so much problems with my MPIII, it would be a shame if I missed the one described in this thread...

So, when I was riding my e-bike during rainy weather, I noticed that sometimes the motor starts even when I'm not pressing the throttle. I think that it even didn't react to regen braking, so I had to turn the battery off.

After some time I tried to ride again, but I had an opposite problem - regen braking turned on every time when I powered the battery on. So I disconnected the battery, but even then I couldn't ride faster than about 8 km/h, because above that speed the motor started to brake (apparently enough energy was created for the controller to "work"). Disconnecting the motor from everything else (including brakes) didn't help either.

So is it a broken controller or maybe there are other possibilities? I took the controller out after a few days and everything looks fine with it:


I was thinking about sealing the controller if I receive a new one. But is it OK to seal the capacitors' tops (as they seem not to be sealed intentionally)? And what about this sheet metal on which I marked colors of the wires?

As can be seen in this photo, there are 2 wires sticking out. Is it correct, and can shortening these wires cause some problems?

I'm also going to check if I can seal anything inside the motor, so I tried to open the cover, but it moved only a bit:


I even tried to use such "brute force" method:


But it didn't help (of course I was careful not to damage the motor windings inside). The cover moved a bit, but when I removed the hammer, the cover returned to it's previous position.
Am I doing something wrong, or maybe I should use more force (or a bigger hammer )?
Also, it's a bit strange that now the cover rotates freely, but I can't move the axle:





Maybe I'll try to reset the controller, but does this manual apply also to MP3?

Another possibility is to use an external controller, but I'd also have to buy new brakes, throttle etc. - or cut&solder wires from ones which I received with my kit... Are there at least some photos or videos showing how to do it properly?

So instead I'll probably make an external controller from internal controller, i. e. take it out and put in a waterproof box in a place less exposed to water. However, is it OK to put internal controller in a sealed box? Doesn't it need some cooling (though I'm going to use it at 250 W)? Does a box need to be made from metal, or a plastic one would suffice?

[Bikemad]

Having so much problems with my MPIII, it would be a shame if I missed the one described in this thread...

So, when I was riding my e-bike during rainy weather, I noticed that sometimes the motor starts even when I'm not pressing the throttle. I think that it even didn't react to regen braking, so I had to turn the battery off.

After some time I tried to ride again, but I had an opposite problem - regen braking turned on every time when I powered the battery on. So I disconnected the battery, but even then I couldn't ride faster than about 8 km/h, because above that speed the motor started to brake (apparently enough energy was created for the controller to "work"). Disconnecting the motor from everything else (including brakes) didn't help either.

So is it a broken controller or maybe there are other possibilities?

I don't know whether water in the connector can cause the braking problem you have but it can definitely cause the motor to run without touching the throttle.
Check out this post to see how water can affect the throttle operation.
If everything is bone dry and the braking problem still persists with the motor harness unplugged, it could be the controller that is causing it.

I took the controller out after a few days and everything looks fine with it:


I was thinking about sealing the controller if I receive a new one. But is it OK to seal the capacitors' tops (as they seem not to be sealed intentionally)?

It should be OK to seal over the ends of the capacitors with a thin layer of silicone sealant.
The ends of the capacitors are usually weakened to allow it to rupture in case of excessive pressure build up should the capacitors fail:



And what about this sheet metal on which I marked colors of the wires?

The aluminium heat sink plate could be painted with some black Hammerite paint to protect against corrosion if you want.

As can be seen in this photo, there are 2 wires sticking out. Is it correct, and can shortening these wires cause some problems?

The wires I'm looking at appear to be two of the three phase wires, shortening these might make it difficult to reattach them and fit the controller back in the correct position again.

I'm also going to check if I can seal anything inside the motor, so I tried to open the cover, but it moved only a bit:


I even tried to use such "brute force" method:


But it didn't help (of course I was careful not to damage the motor windings inside). The cover moved a bit, but when I removed the hammer, the cover returned to it's previous position.
Am I doing something wrong, or maybe I should use more force (or a bigger hammer )?

The cover is a tight fit on the bearing, and the bearing can sometimes be a very snug fit on the stator housing.I suspect that you simply pulled the whole stator assembly out and the strong magnets pulled it back in again!

Also, it's a bit strange that now the cover rotates freely, but I can't move the axle:





As you have dislodged the side cover the stator may no longer be held away from the magnets. If the stator is stuck against some of the magnets, it will be very difficult to turn

Maybe I'll try to reset the controller, but does this manual apply also to MP3?

Those instructions were for one of the very early external GM cruise controllers and I don't think that procedure will do anything on the MPIII controller.

Another possibility is to use an external controller, but I'd also have to buy new brakes, throttle etc. - or cut&solder wires from ones which I received with my kit... Are there at least some photos or videos showing how to do it properly?

Here are some photos showing the modifications to the wiring on the motor to allow an external controller to be used:





So instead I'll probably make an external controller from internal controller, i. e. take it out and put in a waterproof box in a place less exposed to water. However, is it OK to put internal controller in a sealed box? Doesn't it need some cooling (though I'm going to use it at 250 W)? Does a box need to be made from metal, or a plastic one would suffice?

If you used a rigid box and cut a hole the correct size for the controller you could leave the outer side of the controller exposed to cooling air and seal the joint between the controller and the box with silicone sealant before you bolt it into place.
You would also need to seal the hole in the centre where the axle fits with a suitably sized rubber blanking grommet bonded in with some more silicone sealant.
A metal box would help to dissipate the heat more efficiently

If water is getting into the controller it might be getting in through the main cable entry point, and I suspect it is also likely to find its way into the motor through the bearings which are only shielded and not equipped with rubber seals to help keep the water out:



Water in the motor will evaporate when it gets warm and is likely to condense onto the controller unit which will usually cool down quicker than the stator assembly when the bike is parked up after a long run.
Putting some petroleum jelly into each of the push connectors should help to prevent corrosion and will hopefully keep rainwater out. You can also seal the main connector between the motor and the main wiring harness by taping around the joint with insulation tape to help keep any water out, but I think water could eventually find its way into the throttle assembly if it is subjected to strong winds and heavy rain for any length of time.

It would also be worth running some thin cyanoacrylate glue around each of the cables on the rubber multi junction block unit in the middle of the motor harness to prevent water getting inside as a result of capillary action.

Alan
 

[User1]

Bikemad, thanks again for such a comprehensive reply!

I'm not sure if we were talking about the same wires, so I've marked them with a red line:

I think I didn't put it correctly (sorry for my English ), but I wanted to ask if touching (not insulated) ends of these little wires against each other can cause the controller to function not properly?

It seems almost impossible for me to waterproof the motor completely (bearings etc.), so as I planned before, when I receive a new controller, I'll put it in a sealed box outside the motor. I'll keep you posted on the results

[Bikemad]

I was looking at the two phase wires sticking out of the controller housing in the photo below, not the ones circled in red on you last post.


Touching those wires together is unlikely to make any difference whatsoever as they appear to be unused wires from the motor harness which are only utilised on the more recent vector controllers.

Alan
 

[User1]

So eventually the dealer agreed to sell me an external controller with a discount and replace the USB cable and modify the connections for free. Now the motor works again!

The only problem I have is that the PAS is not working. I've read that in order to activate it I should press the cruise control button twice and get a beep, but it doesn't happen. Do these instructions apply to BAC-028x controller too?

P. S. The dealer (from Poland) told me that because I took out my "easy replacable" controller, my warranty is void. And that the manufacturer doesn't advertise Magic Pie as waterproof. I just tell this to warn others. Fortunately, what he actually did was much better than what he said.