Author Topic: Battery Management System  (Read 13637 times)

Offline Just

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Battery Management System
« on: January 19, 2013, 08:39:03 PM »
Hi All,

Should BMS balance the cells ever they was previously discharged to the different levels?

Actually I have two chargers - one for a whole (48V) battery and the second one for a single LiFePo4 cell. So, when my 48V finished to charge the 48V battery (which has BMS), I tried to charge the individual cell with my second charger (for a single cell). I was too surprised when figured out that I'm able to charge some of the cells with additional 2-4Ah! Actually capacitance of the cells is 10Ah.

So, what's wrong? Doesn't the BMS do its job (doesn't balance the cells during the charge)? Please help.

Thank you!

Offline Lollandster

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
I can't speak for all BMS systems here, but the one I have charges the whole pack then goes ahead with balancing. The balancing takes a lot of time so it is recommended to leave the battery in the charger for several hours after the green light appears (I can see the light periodically dimming as the balancing draws current). Last I checked my pack it was perfectly balanced within 0.01v.

The light on the charger is controlled by the current flow and since the balancing uses a very low current the charger will have a green light while balancing. You usually don't need to balance so this is a perfectly good solution.

But again I have no idea how your particular BMS works, try reading the manual.
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Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 10:36:08 PM »
Thanks Lollandster for your VERY USEFUL comment!

Actually it was probably my mistake so that I disconnected the charger from the battery once its red light was changed to green one... I thought that the BMS should balance the cells during the charge.

I actually purchased my BMS from Headway (famous battery cells provider), but they did not supply any manual with it.

My charger actually provide a constant output current of about 5Amps. At the end of the charge it works in on/off mode for a several minutes and then changes its light from RED to GREEN. I guess at this point the BMS cuts off the charger's input to the battery...

Let's say the BMS does its work and try to balance the cells... But might it be done with the 5Amps charger or it should be an intelligent enough and vary its output according to the state of the charged cells (let's say change its output current from 5A to 0.5A)?

Thank you!

Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 11:15:27 PM »
From GM site:

Alike lead-acid battery, a number of LiFePO4 cells in a battery pack in series connection would balance each other during charging process, due to large overcharge tolerance. This self balance character can allow 10% difference between cells for both voltage and capacity inconsistency.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 11:16:58 PM by just »

Offline Lollandster

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 12:05:43 AM »
For your benefit I hooked up my amp meter and checked the output. The fan stopped and the light turned green at 160mA. It continued to drop until it reached 20mA from there it slowed down and dropped very slowly. After 45 minutes I stopped it (I didn't want to drain the battery on my multimeter too much) at that point it was still at 15mA. I didn't get the changing currents I have experienced earlier, but that is probably because the battery hasn't been used for a long time and is very well balanced.

Some easy reading that may help you understand the charging process: http://liionbms.com/php/wp_cccv_charging.php
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Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 12:58:49 AM »
Thanks! I'll indeed read this article and do the experiment, which you did. Hopefully my ampere-meter will be enough precised in order to measure such small currents.

BTW, had you look at the graph, which I posted in the thread? GM say that LiFePo4 batteries might be charged with a constant current and a constant voltage to up to 95% of their capacity with just a single run. In this case, a mismatch in a final capacity and voltage of the charged cells might be up to 10%. This is due so-called self-balanced feature of LiFePo4 cell...

But, in my 10Ah battery a difference in the capacity of different cells might be up to 4Ah!...


Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 02:08:34 AM »
I have another thought...  :)

If the battery is composed of the cells with the different capacity, will each cell be charged to its maximum capacity or all of them will be charged to the capacity of the cell with the least capacity?

Will the BMS continue balancing the cells after the charger is disconnected? Why not? The cells are still connected to each other and to the BMS as well.

Offline Lollandster

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 08:22:18 AM »
I did look at the graph you posted and I believe those 10% are the CV (constant voltage) part of the charging proses, but I didn't understand the text well enough to comment on it.

The reason why the pack doesn't balance when not charging (the ones in series that is) has to do with the way the balancing is done. When a cell reaches its final voltage of 3.65v and the rest is lower the BMS solves this by discharging the highest cell over a resistor down to a level where is can safely be charged again, then it continues charging the whole pack. This is a proses that is looping until all the cells are fully charged. If you would try to balance without a power supply you could only do the first part and discharge the high cells and all you would end up with is to discharge the whole pack down to the lowest cell. If you needed to ride somewhere that day you'd be out of luck.

Some more expensive charger can charge individual cells instead of draining the highest cell and charging the whole pack. But to do this you need a regulating circuit that can regulate the voltage down to 3.65v before feeding it to the low cell. Absolutely possible, but more expensive and since balancing is only needed occasionally (about every 10th charge) I for one wouldn't pay the premium.

The alternative method I guess you where thinking about would be to steal the current from the highest cell and give to the lowest cell. You could build a BMS that does this, but you would have to disconnect those cells from serial connection and then parallel connect them (if you try to parallel connect them while in series you'll end up with a short circuit). To do this you'd need transistors for every cell capable of delivering the full discharge capability of the pack (30A for a MPIII) when using the pack, and not only would this be a very expensive BMS, you would also have a problem with heat from the internal resistance of the transistors. If you connect a small resistor in parallel with the highest cell instead you only need a transistor that can take the discharge current over that resistor as it will be in the off position when using the battery (plus it is a closed circuit so the transistors would only be subjected to the current over the balancing resistor even if it was in the on position when using the pack)

As for the question about the higher capacity cell in a pack. As long as this cell is only in serial with lower capacity cells and not it parallel I believe it would be charged to its full capacity given enough time. If you have a pack where all cells are 5ah except for one cell that is 10ah and they all where charged to 5ah capacity you would, in a perfect balancer, need additional 5ah delivered in CV mode. This is because all the 5ah cells would need to be discharged 5ah while the whole pack is charged again. As I showed in my last post the charger is very slow in CV mode and I would expect it to take about 10 days to balance it not including the time it takes to discharge. For a BMS that can only discharge one cell at the time it would probably take several times longer. A smarter BMS would discharge the cells so low that you could use CC (constant current) to bring it up again, but no battery packs are build like this, so no BMS is going to be designed to deal with it effectively. After the initial balancing though you would probably never get that high capacity cell too much out of balance with the others (that is it will still have 5ah capacity left when the LVC kicks in and therefore only needing the same 5ah of charging as the rest of the pack)

If your pack had cells that where 4ah out of balance in your pack it would have taken a very long time to get it balanced with the BMS.

This post got a little long and I'm not en expert in this field, so I expect there to be some errors.
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Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 02:57:31 PM »
Lollandster, thank you for your post! Now it's clear how a BMS should work.
Honestly, it seems that nowadays BMS just protect the cells from over-charging. As for the real balancing of the cells (or getting them to their maximum capacity), each cell should be charged individually using a single-cell charger or an expensive intelligent charger, which has a balancing port.
Again, thanks for your post - it cleared up most of my doubts!

Offline MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 04:11:07 PM »
My RC charger balanced the cells during charging.
You can see in the menu when charging.

My ebike charger is just a dumb psu.
So I don't know if the BMS balanced the cell during charging.
But I think it does, because every cell has it own shunt for current and voltage monitoring.
I am using 60-100A BMS.

Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 05:22:12 PM »
Quote
every cell has it own shunt for current and voltage monitoring
Could you elaborate? What exactly shunt do you use?

Quote
I am using 60-100A BMS
Can you let me know where you purchased it? What's model number?

Offline MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 06:23:33 PM »
Well when you look at the bms you will see 16 shunt resistors.

O I see I made a mistake it's 50-100A ;D
I have bought here:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/bmspcm/323-17s26s-24a-max-discharge-current-bms.html

I don't know the model number, I have to look.
I have still one broken laying around somewhere.

Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 07:12:21 PM »
What for 6 FET/CMOS switches present in the BMS? What's their functionality?

As for the shunts, should they bypass the current from the cells, which are already reached their maximum voltage level during charging? If they should then all the cells should be fully charged in the end of the charging process. If they are activated just for balancing the cells then all the cells may not reach their full capacity (or they do but after a loooooooooooooooong time of the cells balancing since it's usually done with just 300mA or even less current).

Offline MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 07:21:12 PM »
I really don't now, because when the battery is fully charged (green light) I always disconnect the charger,
Maybe I have to look after fully charge what happens then...

Offline Just

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Re: Battery Management System
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 07:25:05 PM »
yeap, if you have a single cell charger then try to charge each cell separately just after you disconnect the charger... and you will find that some cells are not fully charged and are able to receive additional 1-2-3-4Ah (my guess). Just try and let us know :-)