Author Topic: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?  (Read 4456 times)

Offline skylinenitro

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Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« on: July 06, 2012, 04:11:12 PM »
I was thinking (thats when you say 'ut-oh').  The bike gets slow and sluggish when my lead acid batteries get to about 48v and below, and this sluggish-ness is undesirable... Speed and pickup are noticeably slow...

So I was thinking, wouldn't it be great if I had the power curve of the Lipo and better batteries?  Whereas the power stays around 80% for most of the battery load until the batts get low and need a charge.  So to get that, I was thinking of having a transformer take the battery voltage and output it to 54v or 56v, no matter what the battery voltage is.  The transformer would sit between the batts and the controller and always feed 56vdc to the controller (see pic below)

What do you think?
Live Long and Prosper

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 04:41:23 PM »
Just to be perfectly clear, you are not actually intending to insert a simple AC transformer across the output terminals of a battery, are you?

That would be a dead short, and you would likely have chunks of an exploded battery embedded in your skin, and battery acid dripping around you within milliseconds of making the connection.


So don't even think about that, if that was what you were thinking about doing.

Sincerely and seriously,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 04:48:04 PM »
OK, now that you are safe, if by "transformer"  you actually meant "some device to keep the input to my motor controller at a constant value", I can think of some ways to accomplish that.  A switching power supply that has the output characteristics you need could be used to do what you suggest.  But my guess is that you would spend more on a 54VDC @ 40Amp switcher than you would to upgrade to newer technology batteries. 

TTFN,
Dennis

And don't even think about putting a transformer across a battery!   

Offline skylinenitro

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 07:19:21 PM »
Sorry! I wasn't thinking about an actual transformer (with the coils) I know those are only for AC. 

I was short for words, what I ment was a transistor (or possibly a MOSFET) to do the voltage amplification.  Kinda similar to the transistors that are in the motor controller (except these would not output AC) (unless we wanted AC and used diodes and capacitors to make it into DC)

I would guess a few transistors would be necessary to handle the amperage. 

We could also use a DC-DC converter, like for solar applications, but that would get expensive.  I have some electronic training and would like to build my own if it is cheap enough to do without getting to the cost of getting better batteries.
Live Long and Prosper

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 04:12:06 PM »
As a long term user of SLA's batteries I can tell you that voltage sag is not only problem of this chemistry. Very big problem is that you can discharge SLA's to 50-60% state of charge and then they simply are not able to provide sufficient current and this problem would be even more perceptible with "transformer". You would have high voltage but low current:-(

That is why I sacrifice some money and swith to LiFePo4, despite the cost it is the best you can do.
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline Leslie

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 11:51:07 PM »
If you want the V curve of a Li batt you get an Li batt. 

I agree with Lu.Sochr.  I used to be an SLA user for some time and I searched far an wide for a cost effective solution.  I found the best SLA for the price was a RITAR EV series battery, these were designed for Electric vehicles.  Because I do cargo bikes that tow plenty of weight for long distances I often would drain these below 60% and be lucky to get 8 months use and that was pretty awesome compared to other brands. 

These batteries were costing me $400 a pop every 6 to 8 mths. And strapping 4*24ah 7 KG batteries to my frame became a unwanted repetitive task. However I learned a lot.

With 28kg of lead on my frame. My bike stands would break, the bike would fall over too much and wreck other equipment. My tires would get more punctures, and wear more quickly.  All this became a hole in my pocket rather than a saving and a hell of a lot of work.  At first the work was fun.  As I would find a lot of work around's, and learn to build a very strong bike, modify bike stands, and learned much about weigh distribution and braking. My bike ended up weighing over 60kgs and my cargo hauls were increasing every trip.


The v drop you get on any pack, multiplied by the current you pull equals wasted watts.  So if your voltage sags by 6v and you pull 20 amps, youre wasting 120 watts and that results in heat inside your SLA.  This is why you get slower speeds and shorter life spans at higher rate discharges..

When I moved to Li everything changed.  What I had learned using SLA's for 2 years was certainly an asset.  But it ended the changing and buying new batteries.  I prolly spent about an extra $200 on my LiFePo4 pack, delivery inclusive, shed about 24kgs off my frame, My tires would last longer, and less puncture repairs, new tubes and brake pads, spoke replacements, and with the 15ah Li pack vs the 24ah SLA I gained between over the long term between 2.5-3 * the range. 

And also, my Ebike was much safer.

The difference was so noticeable I never looked back. 

The old SLA's didnt go to waste though, they are still good for lighter use, for power drills that the pack died. For DIY torches, for solar panels, experimenting with electronics, testing controller and motors.  I still am using them old SLAS now years later and recycled a few, its just there are totally useless for EV's..
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 12:04:56 AM by Les »

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Offline skylinenitro

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 02:02:33 PM »
Sounds good! Thanks for all the info!  I do suffer from alot of weight in lead, and I want to start towing stuff, however I am on a budget and there is nooo room for batts in that budget.

On a side note, I am a computer technician and when we have bad laptop batteries I like to take them apart and get the good cells out of them.  The below pic is what I find in them.  They are 3.6v Li-Ion and there are 6-8 of them in each pack depending on laptop model.  We have prolly 40 'dead' laptop batt packs, so there might be 100-300 good cells in them.  Think I can make a batt pack out of those?  It would take 13-14 cells to make a 48v group (at 1 or 2 amp/hr per group?) , so I might be able to get 7-21 groups (at ~7-48 A/hr total?)

My only other roadblock would be a proper charging system to make sure they don't explode... And that I wouldnt have a BMS
Live Long and Prosper

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 04:41:21 PM »
It looks to me like you have a lifetime supply of free batteries!

I saw a BMS board on the web recently, don't remember where, but Google is your friend......Maybe HobbyKing?

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Power Mod for Lead Acid Users?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2012, 06:14:26 PM »
That is right, you could buy bms for desired amount of cells (or groups of parallel connected cells) in series as well as the charger.

You would be only changing bad cells and have a lifetime battery pack:-)
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4