Author Topic: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff  (Read 8460 times)

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« on: June 30, 2012, 12:58:45 AM »
I will admit that I have been somewhat skeptical about some of the posts that read "I didn't do anything wrong, and now the Pie is toast".  I figured somebody did something stupid, and killed their Pie.   I have been very careful to ensure everything I have been done is in accordance with commonly accepted standards, to avoid a similar fate.

So.....

This morning I went for a drive in my Morgen, and ran the battery down pretty low. ( There were lots of smiles involved.)  So I plugged it in for a few hours, till it showed a full charge.   I disconnected the charger, jumped in and turned the key switch on.  There was an arcing sound from somewhere, the voltmeter showed zero, and I started cursing.  I checked the fuse, and it is fine.  I checked the disconnected battery, and it is at 58 VDC.  I  reconnected the battery, disconnected the Anderson connector at the Pie, and when I switched on the battery, the voltmeter showed 58 VDC.  So, I suspect I have either a bad connection somewhere in the battery module, or less likely a bad controller. 

For reference, I have an MP3, a 48Volt LiFePo4 battery, with GM thumb throttle. 
 
I want to be calm and thoughtful before I even look at the damn thing any more.  I also want to be advised about what others have done to get around GM quality failures.   What did you use to replace the keyswitch, battery output connector, controller, etc.   Anything to get the reliability up to a realistic level.   

And I apologize to all the nice people who I doubted....


TTFN,
Dennis
 

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 12:56:16 PM »
First I should say that I almost always remove my battery for charging. Just my setup. I disconnect/reconnect via the Anderson plug - I have no keyswitch. (I have the battery fused of course.)

I have a third party controller, which allows the controller board to be powered up separately (via single positive lead) from the main battery power. Initially, I wired it up so that the controller was always on with battery power, but after reconnecting a few times I opted to interrupt the controller board power with a small toggle switch. Every time I reconnected, with the controller board powering up simultaneously, I would get tremendous arcing at the connector. With the board powered down, I barely hear any arcing at all.

I don't know where the initial power is going. Perhaps capacitors charging or some of the FETs may be on, due to residual gate voltage perhaps, until the board fully powers up. No idea why.

The reason I go through this long winded explanation is by way of saying that when you power up through your keyswitch, you're likely severely burning the switch contacts. This assumes that your controller board is powering up simultaneously and may be the source of the arcing sound you heard. I suspect it doesn't take too many of those arcs to fry the contacts and break continuity.

Fingers crossed it's not your controller...
8)
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 02:59:41 PM »
Hi Dennis,

Sorry to hear of your issue. It could be several things that make it "not go"

First the key switch. It could have arched enough to blow it. There may still be enough of it working to display voltage at the battery or your volt memter. but when powering up the controller it could cause enough resistance to kick out the BMS

Second it could be a bad cell or failed BMS. This is unlikely but possible. It would be nice if you could test your battery on another ebike.

Third and most likely it is a failed controller.

What to do?

- I would contact who you bought it from immediately
- I would then try bypassing the key switch
- If this doesn't work then I would arrange to have the controller replaced.

If you purchased from a dealer this should be quite simple. If you purchased from GM China good luck with that.

My policy on failed controllers is "send it to me I'll test it and send a replacement if its failed. If its fine then we at least know its not the controller."

The policy of others I am unsure.

Good Luck and I hope its and easy fix.
Gary


Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 05:27:48 PM »
Hi Truly,

After reading your post, it occurred to me that maybe I could back feed the 5V line to the controller with a small switcher, so the controller module had power before sending full power to the FET switches.  Your description makes me think that GM selected FETs that are on without signal, so when DC power is supplied to the module all the H-switches are on, which would allow current to flow from supply to ground until the control signals are generated to turn off the FETs.  Thus the huge current pulse. 

The caps that I have seen in photos, etc are too small to draw enough charging current to generate arc damage.  (IMO) They could be contributing to the time it takes to turn off the FETs, however.

Gary, I have to do some more thinking before I reply to your comment. 



TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 08:29:00 PM »
I hooked up my wires waffle iron in place of the Pie, and the battery puts 56 Volts at 3-4 amps into it with no drama.  When I reconnected the Pie, I heard an arc at the switch, volts and amps showed zero.  So, at least the switch is demonstrating arc damage.  Now I have to figure out if the Pie is also dead.


Any comments about feeding the controller from a remote 5VDC supply? 

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Bikemad

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Re: DIY Arc furnace -Don't try this at home!
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 01:15:20 AM »
Dennis, the arcing at the switch contacts is usually caused by the initial current surge as the capacitors are instantly charged up to equal the battery voltage when the battery is initially connected. Disconnect it for at least 5 seconds and the same big spark occurs each time you reconnect.

As an experiment, I tried connecting an old controller which has the FETs disconnected and the spark was just the same as it is on my current controller on the bike, so I would definitely say that the capacitor charging is responsible for the initial spark.

The spark is also a lot bigger on 48V than it is on 24V.

Anyway, I decided I would try and capture the spark on video to show exactly what happens each time you throw the switch, but it was very difficult to see using a male and female pair of Deans type connectors.
I thought it would be easier to see the spark if it wasn't happening inside the connector, so I connected a home made gender changer to the female socket so I could simply touch the two male terminals together leaving the spark nice and visible. ;)

Even though I was steadying the two connectors very carefully with both hands, I still managed to somehow touch them together in the wrong position and must have shorted out the battery side connector for just a split second, which resulted in a nice big loud spark causing an enormous amount of heat which instantly vaporised the copper contacts!

The battery side connector was not too badly damaged and is still usable, but the following picture shows what remains of the male connector coming from the controller:


And this is what happened to my hands that were holding the connectors nice and steady:


The molten blob of copper decide to embed itself into my watt meter:


And this is all that remains of the missing bits of the copper connectors:


Unfortunately this was just the trial run, so the video was not running. ::)

In previous experiments, I found that connecting a 360ohm 1/4 watt resistor for a couple of seconds was enough to charge the capacitors in the controller and eliminate any sparking when the main connection was made.

This worked fine as long as you connected the main connection before you tried using the throttle, as failing to do so would result in the poor little resistor being fried. :o

A simple solution for batteries with a keyswitch would be to have a momentary push button and resistor connected across the switch contacts so that you could simply press and hold the button for a second or two to pre-charge the capacitors in the controller before turning on the keyswitch.

The ideal solution would be an automatic pre-charge system incorporated into the controller itself to eliminate the possibility of user error or abuse.

Regarding the 5V external supply, I don't honestly think this would make any difference, as I'm pretty sure the controller uses a 12V supply for switching the FETs gate connections.
When I've played with these FETs in the past, I found that they would only allow current flow between the source and drain connections when the gate voltage was reasonably high.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:38:06 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 05:54:30 AM »
Good Lord, Alan!   That is a serious amount of energy you dissipated!  Do you still have fingerprints?  I think my wire feed welder only puts out 20 some volts into the arc at a low amperage.  You must have been pushing hundreds of amps!


Thanks for your input about back feeding the 5v supply.  Your charging resistor scheme is like a variation on soft start for AC motors, and would be easy to implement.   One way would be to use a relay that would bypass your resistor as soon as the 5VDC came up to energize the relay coil. 

Do you think the zero battery output in my little problem is a consequence of the BMS low voltage cutout reacting to a huge current surge causing the output voltage to sag?  Do you happen to know if the cutout is performed by using a FET in the output string of the cells? 


TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Jemen

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 09:39:56 AM »
It is because of that I use XT60 in my RC models and now in my e bike.
Deans could be attached in wrong way. It happens me with a old rc car, much lower power but melt soldering.
My key switch has get burned coz of bad built. One of the solder was cold solder also.
 I have change it to a +160 amps boat switch. After the change I got more amps out of battery.
To big to fit well but it works good.
Jemen out and bi...

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 05:06:44 PM »
It just occurred to me that Alan's charging resistor could be used to test the Pie for shorts.  If the Pie is undamaged, the voltage should build on the input pins to the pie.  I'll have to find a resistor tomorrow and try it.

Any thoughts?

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 11:42:48 PM »
Which inputs are you referring to? Do you mean the controller power supply inputs? Are you thinking of putting a resistor in series with the positive lead, or am I way off here?

If so, it had better be a pretty high wattage resistor. If there is a short, you're gonna be dropping 48V and a wad of amps across it.
48V / 5R = 9.6A
48V x 9.6A = 461W

Wear safety glasses... Or welders goggles. Ha!
8)
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 05:38:56 AM »
Yeah, I meant a resistor in the power lead to the Pie.  I actually used my wife's 15 ohm 1000 watt resistor (her waffle iron) to find out that with a 54 volt battery  output or roughly 4 amps of current,  the voltage drop across the Pie was .286 volts.......... the other 53+ volts were dropped across the waffle iron.   I think maybe the controller is shorted.  :)  Or maybe really, really shorted.   

So, what do I have to do to replace the internal controller (that has failed twice already in less than 40 hours of total operation) with another controller?   Any brand names or models to recommend?

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 09:24:48 AM »
http://lyen.com/

When I started my electric bike project, I didn't know what voltage I was going to have to run. I'd read about this guy, Edward Lyen, and his controllers over at the endless-sphere forum. He seemed well regarded and his controllers were being used by some (maybe most) of the power phreaks over there. (Apparently, to earn your stripes over at ES, the best method is to turn at least one motor into a flaming ball of over-amped plasma :) )

When asked, Edward offered a modification which would allow me to run battery packs anywhere from 36V on up to 88V (actual FET burnout is at 110V). I went for that, and a couple other options, to one of his 18 FET versions which is rated at 65A. He has lower amp versions too, but you never know when you might want to impress the neighbors with a flaming ball of plasma. Actually, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to buy equipment that is overrated, and I've set the controller amp limit to 35.

I think his controllers are either modified Infideon models, or derived from the same line. There's some correlation there anyway. The interface software looks almost identical.

I don't worry about my controller. After a hard run, it barely gets warm to the touch. The price is obviously higher, but not out of line. Actually, I thought it a pretty good bang for the buck. Delivery was quick and he answered all my questions promptly.
8)

P.S. Make sure to get your motor flame-out on video. Always a crowd pleaser...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:41:50 AM by truly_bent »
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline Rodmiami

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 01:55:39 PM »
Dennis , I to have had all of the problems associated with my MP2 and I know that you have a MP3 . My first battery died a painful death first by having the key switch arc out , that I replaced with a large red boat battery switch mounted to the front of the battery , PS I forgot to mention that my first battery the Anderson connectors completely fell apart into 8 pieces . Then one day I was riding my bike and hit a tree branch which bounced the battery pretty bad and shut off the BMS . I turned the switch off and on and I was underway . BUT from then on the bike got weaker . A couple of weeks later the bike would not move even though the proper voltage was shown on my volt meter I opened up the rear of the battery only to find that the BMS had partially disconnected from the board therefore killing some cells .                                                                                                           Then I ordered a new battery from Gary , That one lasted about 9 months until the BMS went out on it . It would only charge thru the Anderson connector and since GM quit making those batteries and parts Gary offered me a 36v 10a lipo4 at a discount so I took it .  I thought that the MP3 was going to be more reliable since my MP2 did not work out of the box and I had to replace the controller which was defective from GM . Thanks to Gary and Alan for helping with dealing with GM where I ordered it from . I only order GM things from Gary . He has a real care for customers . I think GM has good products , but the quality needs to be improved . Rod           

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 05:05:15 PM »
Hi Rod,

To say GM has quality problems is being quite kind.  Their design staff has done marvelous work with the packaging of the motors and batteries; they are gorgeous to look at. The controller for my MP3 is a brilliant bit of packaging: neat, thermally effective, mechanically rugged.  But mine was assembled with solder joints with wires just laying on circuit board traces showing clear signs of overheating in some places and not enough solder in others!  After looking at photos posted here of just plain awful assembly work, I just can't bring myself to consider buying another replacement electronic module from them.  Apparently some modules were even shipped with the red and black wires interchanged, and instead of correcting the assembly error GM China put on little labels to mark pos and neg!   I cannot understand how management approved such an obviously poor fix for such an easily corrected assembly error.   

The hell of it is that high assembly quality is easy to attain with training.  And high quality has such a huge positive influence on profitability.  I used to be in the semiconductor manufacturing business, and I'm just stunned to find that what should be the most reliable portion of the MP3 (the electronic module) is actually the weakest link because of how it is assembled!   

I do not know Gary from GM Canada, but I would not hesitate to buy stuff from him.  He clearly is in a challenging position, as being a reseller for GM products doesn't seem like a wonderful position.  I wish him the best of luck in getting GM China to start building stuff as reliable as it is pretty to look at.  These guys could take over the Ebike world if they started building reliable products. 

Rant=off.

TTFN,
Dennis



Offline GM Canada

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Re: Please recommend something to replace GM stuff
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 02:54:30 AM »

I do not know Gary from GM Canada, but I would not hesitate to buy stuff from him.  He clearly is in a challenging position, as being a reseller for GM products doesn't seem like a wonderful position.  I wish him the best of luck in getting GM China to start building stuff as reliable as it is pretty to look at.  These guys could take over the Ebike world if they started building reliable products. 

Rant=off.

TTFN,
Dennis

I appreciate your positive comments and I understand your frustration.

When I first got into this game it was about 6 months before I realized GM's past record at quality and even worse warranty support. I  have told this story a few times before so I'll keep it breif. After having a rather large investment in product and hearing of this reputation I wondered what shall I do? Do I want my name out there representing this? Do I take a loss and just dump my stock? My heart was sunk. Meanwhile I am riding my new pro901 to work everyday and loving it. I decided to take on the challenge. I decided I can not explain or improve any quality issues with the product, I am not the manufacturer, but I can stand behind my customers and warranty any failed items. I decided to make it simple. If you buy it from me there will be no issue with support. If you buy it elsewhere your on your own. AT first even for me getting warranty support from GM was difficult. I remember the first issue. It was a controller or course and they swore there is no way it could have failed "we test everything" the customer must have hooked it up wrong. It took about 2 weeks to get them to aggree to replace it. The uphill battle began from there.

Now I can say I have had 1000's of sales and their really is no valid complaint about me. Believe me thats not easy. I have taken shots from all directions and come out squeky clean everytme. I can confidently say everyone is still riding, I have left no one behind. It takes alot of work and expence to keep my customer base 100 percent satisfied but I really do put in the effort. I'll help anyone who has bought from me to any point unless I feel I am being taken advantage of. Believe me people try everything. Once I feel the someone is being unreasonable I end things pretty quick. It is discouraging however the amount of email I get about how no other person in the company will answer their email or their phone. I don't get it but I guess thats my advantage over the rest.

Since I have been with GM we had the 901 and 902. They are both quite hardy and reliable motors. Then came MP1, a good idea but several design flaws. Then MP2 better, but still not a good internal controller. Thats when I convinced GM to have External MP2 and I've sold a ton of those. Now MP3, more design improvments, a better controller and more power. It all seems good but still there are controller failures. No where near the failures of the internal MP1 and MP2 but still some controller issues. All I can say to my customers is if it fails Im there for you.

I have seen quality in the kits improve and have also seen great improvments in batteries as well. Its not perfect but getting better. You must always remember most people don't come to a forum to say there having a good time. They come if they need help. That does makes thing look worse then they really are  but its really not as bad as it seems. If everything I sold failed it would be impossible to stay in business.

Anyway I said I would be brief, but thats impossible when I get started on this stuff. I wish you the best, did you contact your supplier for help yet?