Author Topic: Controller fault finding  (Read 17627 times)

Offline redbike

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Controller fault finding
« on: September 06, 2008, 11:59:49 PM »
The saga continues. I built a load bank to test my 36Y 10aH GM batteries only to find they seem OK. The one I thought had a fault holds up under approx 350W resistive load so I seem to have a problem with the GM controller. The motor initially ran fine with the second battery but on my first long ride the motor started cutting out when I was ascending a long steep hill not far from home. Thinking it was either over heating or cutting out on the high amp overload I nursed it home and let it cool down, although it was barely warm to touch. The problem was still there an hour later. The next day I took it down the drive and it was cutting out continuously just like the previous battery. I apply load, the motor cuts out, I remove the load and then reapply and it works but cuts out straight away again. I have checked all the connections and they are well seated and tight, the battery has an output of 39.9V.

I pulled controller board out of the case to check for burnt connections or components but cannot see any. The tracks all look intact with the main bus and other tracks nice and bright and shiny whick generally means a good joint.

This is a problem a number of people seem to be experiencing so Lanchon suggested I start a new thread.

Has anyone got a circuit diagram or fault finding suggestions as it is pretty hard to know were to start. I am assuming it is a three phase controller with three banks of four FET's. Is it safe to connect the battery and power it up on the bench without the motor connected? I saw a controller tester on one site - would this be worth getting?

Offline biohazardman

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 02:01:28 AM »
There are a couple of guys with the GM battery packs that have found the connection inside the three prong battery plug fails under load.  You may want to jumper around it first.  Another check might be each individual battery as they are new to the site and several have had problems with them failing under various loads also.  I have the stock 36v controller minus a plug that I have never used.  I can send it to you if it will help in troubleshooting. I would expect you to do the same with it when you are done.  Let me know and good luck.

Offline redbike

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 02:43:36 AM »
Ta Bio. I have already replaced both the 36V socket and lead so I think they are OK - thanks for the offer though. I have measured the voltages on the board using the photo Lanchon posted (they are are noted on the photos 15 & 5V) and they are correct.

I found a fault finding page on ebike.ca http://ebike.ca/troubleshooting.shtml so I tested the throttle as per the instructions. It looked OK with the following readings
red/black - 4.35V
green/black - 0.85-3.65V
red/black - 3.5-0.7V With the last two readings varying with throttle position but inversely

I am assuming that the battery is OK if I am still reading 39V and the load bank tests OK.

Offline redbike

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2008, 03:04:37 AM »
I just measured the voltages across the hall sensor which are 0-4.3V at each point when you turn the wheel.

Offline biohazardman

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 04:18:18 AM »
OK another test then.  Have you tested the batteries voltage under the load you actually use.  Just hook up the leads and take it for a ride.  Keep the multi-meter in view at failure time. That will rule out the batts for sure.  Sorry I'm stuck on them but that's the most prevalent problem I see in the reading I do, next to wiring troubles.  After that you could hook it up to the motor feed from the controller and do the same test. Just having voltage is not enough things can look good but fail under normal load.  You should be tearing your hair out about now.  I work on ancient computers and other old electrical /mechanical stuff all day and it can get frustrating at times for sure. 

Offline Lanchon

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 07:41:04 AM »
> I built a load bank to test my 36Y 10aH GM batteries
totally off-topic: if you have a little time, could you describe it or post a pic?

> Thinking it was either over heating
no temp sensor in this controller. it'll happily fry to death, so it's not that.

> I am assuming it is a three phase controller with three banks of four FET's.
yes, there are two parallel FETs on each half-H leg, totaling 12.

> Is it safe to connect the battery and power it up on the bench without the motor connected?
absolutely.

> I saw a controller tester on one site - would this be worth getting?
IMHO, no.

> so I tested the throttle
seems fine.

> hook up the leads and take it for a ride.  Keep the multi-meter in view at failure time.
that's a good suggestion.

> After that you could hook it up to the motor feed from the controller and do the same test.
I doubt that measuring this with a tester would be of any help.

1) are you using the break switches? if so disconnect them from the controller and retest. (don't reconnect them until after the failure is identified and fixed).

2) how do you recover from the cutoff? do you have to cycle the power or just wait? for how long?

I'd check the batt during failure, then...

first thing to diagnose is knowing what's causing the cutoff. either the microcontroller hangs up, or it decides to cut, or some other part of the circuit fails.

the green led is driven by the uC and sort of reports status; I believe it blinks repeatedly a number of times to signal different conditions. maybe you can test with the case open. (or you might want to add an external LED for debugging. if you add it in parallel to the one there, I suggest you use a red led which typically has a lower voltage drop and thus should light up instead of the green one.)

if the led dies on failure, maybe the uC is just locking up. but note the the uC might be using a watchdog, so it might reset milliseconds after the hang-up. so try to see what the led does after power-up (which is a kind of reset) and see if it does the same thing upon failure. this would hint that the controller is being reset.

coming up next...

if the uC is deciding to cut, find out why. there are three possible stimuli: analog battery voltage sense signal (for over/undervoltage detection), digital overcurrent detect signal, and analog current sense signal (that may or may not be used by the software). we could disable each one of them to find the culprit, but keep in mind that an unhandled overcurrent could zap the FETs.

my guess is that (over)current sensing is probably used as negative feedback to limit (regulate) current so it's probably not to blame in your case. we'll see.

EDIT: a hall malfunction will make the uC cut drive to the FETs, but the drive will recover *instantly* after the problem goes away. note that no sequence analysis seems to be done: the current combined state causes the current drive signals. thus, the only malfunction detected on halls is illegal state: all zeros or all ones.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 07:53:34 AM by Lanchon »

Offline Lanchon

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 02:52:19 AM »
hi redbike,

given up?

Offline redbike

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 05:48:14 AM »
Lanchon
Thanks for the info but I have been interstate at a conference for the past week. I intend getting back to the fault finding but need to get some clamp on probes for my multimeter. By the way I did not fit the brake levers with the switches. The motor cuts out and comes on almost immediately and does not require peddling to get going aka still has good torque. The funny thing is that the motor cuts out immediately with the replacement battery but with the first battery I rewired it only cut out at the end of a long ride (my first one mind you). It now cuts out almost immediately I apply the throttle. Once I check the voltage under actual load I will start testing the other things you listed.

Offline Leslie

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 11:17:02 AM »
Lanchon
  It now cuts out almost immediately I apply the throttle.

is that still with the old battery or the new.

Explaining stuff in font is awefully hard.  We understand...

If the old bat works why the change? you moved from SLA to lifepo4?  Sorry I'm just a lil confused.

Bring it on

Offline redbike

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 01:12:43 AM »
Hi Smee

Both batteries are GM LiFePO4. The first fused in a big puff of smoke first time I turned it on. Phil replaced it but the replacement did not work at all. I am thinking the controller took a hit when the original battery burnt out and may now be the problem. If the output of the replacement is higher than the original that I rewired and got going (it may have a faulty cell that collapses under load) then a fault in the controller may be more apparent
See - clear as mud!

Offline Leslie

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 02:18:02 AM »
Does any one here get the feeling there are 2 Philips selling stuff online?

I do!

Bring it on

Offline redbike

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 12:54:43 AM »
Here we go again.

I measured the voltage under load which is not an easy task as it is difficult to attach crocodile clip to the PCB. I ended up attaching one to the main 36V rail running along the short edge and the other through a hole in the board. Battery No 1 (the first battery I received that burnt out and I rewired) measured 39V but dropped to 31.5V under heavy load then the motor cut out. I assume that the low voltage protection cut in. Battery No 2 measured 40V and dropped to about 33V under heavy load and held up. The strange thing is this is the battery that would not work at all. I stripped the heat shrink and tape off it and laid it flat on the bench and checked all the connection witch seemed fine. I reassembled it only to test the controller???? What is going on. I am still unsure if all the cells are ok but all cells in both batteries measure above 3.3V.

Can anyone tell me what the correct fully charged voltage for a cell?

On the controller one LED flashes constantly and the other remains lit and these don't change when it cuts out.

Later today I will reassemble the controller and take the bike for ride.

Offline biohazardman

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 05:43:51 AM »
Blink codes on the controller give you a direction to look for problems if you can get hold of the written key.  Saw one somewhere on the ES forum.  If I run into it again I'll give you the info.

Offline Lanchon

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 07:48:30 AM »

Offline Lanchon

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Re: Controller fault finding
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 08:07:36 AM »
> I measured the voltage under load which is not an easy task as it is difficult to attach crocodile clip to the PCB.

you can slide in two wires into the controller's power connector entering from the side just like the existent wires going into the controller; they'll make contact with the back of the metal pins.

> Battery No 2 measured 40V and dropped to about 33V under heavy load and held up. The strange thing is this is the battery that would not work at all.

you'll have to express yourself more clearly. what heavy load? isn't this the batt that won't work at all? what exactly "not work at all" means?

> On the controller one LED flashes constantly and the other remains lit and these don't change when it cuts out.

my experience with these controllers is that when the motor is being driven the led is off. either your controller is behaving strangely or you're not paying enough attention. if you want to troubleshoot this controller you'll have to observe and report in detail; if we have no eyes we can't do a thing.