Author Topic: any idea to build a throttle control that limit battery voltage drop to 41V ?  (Read 36684 times)

Offline Lanchon

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hi Mitch,

any news?

Offline mitch_781

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Hi Lanchon,
I have done the circuit 2 week ago but I did not tested it yet because my bike is in my parent's house.
So I will not test it before end of March when I'll visit them.(a long time to wait)

I hope I'll find some equipment before to test it with a power supply.

Thanks for your help again, I'll keep you informed if everything works well.


48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline mitch_781

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Hello Lanchon,

I 've just test the circuit last week end.

The circtui was working but time of the controller for the response is smaller than expected.
So every time the circuit was putting the throttle at 0V, I had a cut of power, than full power than cut of power...

Nearly 3 times or more per second. So it is not possible to use it like this, it is always on-off-on....

I tried to change the tension level of the circuit but it is always the same, the response of the controller is to short and the power is cut.

What do you think of adding a small capacitor at the output of the comparator ?
But I really don't know what size I should use.

If you have any other idea don't hesitate.


48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline muzza.au

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G'day,

you could save youselves all the trouble and just get the "Cycle Analyst". It has the ability to program a low voltage cutoff. From the manual:
Quote
6.4 Volts Limit
Program the low voltage rollback point for your battery pack. The
Cycle Analyst will reduce power drawn from the controller in order to
keep the battery voltage from dropping below this limit.
However this may be for the direct connect version, I'm not sure about the stand alone model.

Muzza.au

Offline Lanchon

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sorry to hear you have problems. I need you to answer a couple of questions more precisely:

> So every time the circuit was putting the throttle at 0V, I had a cut of power, than full power than cut of power...
1) you mean that the power oscillates between zero and whatever happens to be the throttle position, while you keep the throttle steady. is this correct?

2) if you don't push the throttle too hard, the bike works fine as it did before. correct?

3) are you sure the low voltage cutoff of the controller IS NOT triggering when the oscillations occur?

4) what value did you use for R7?

5) are you sure you made no mistakes building the circuit?

assuming nothing strange is happening (low voltage cutoff, mistakes, etc) it seems that the loop is unstable because the controller introduces too much delay or nonlinearity in the signal path. (or both; such would be the case if it implemented a ramp-up in software, which I guess it probably does.)

in both cases, the loop can be stabilized by adding a low-pass filter, which can be implemented with just a resistor and a capacitor, so don't worry too much.

> Nearly 3 times or more per second.
6) would 3 Hz be a good estimate of the frequency of the power oscillation?

cheers!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 02:56:49 AM by Lanchon »

Offline mitch_781

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Hello,

I will try to answer as well as I can :

1) you mean that the power oscillates between zero and whatever happens to be the throttle position, while you keep the throttle steady. is this correct?
At low throttle it was working as usual with no problem
but with full or hight throttle the circuit was cuting the power on-off-on all the time.

2) if you don't push the throttle too hard, the bike works fine as it did before. correct?
Yes true , with small throttle it is working well as without the circuit.

3) are you sure the low voltage cutoff of the controller IS NOT triggering when the oscillations occur?
Yes I am sure I tried to modifie the tension cut off of the circuit and I found the controller cut off like it was before, the controller cut off take a long time 2 to 3 sec.

4) what value did you use for R7?
100ohms like proposed

5) are you sure you made no mistakes building the circuit?
Yes I think it is working well it seems to be just a problem of response time of the controller that is very short.

Maybe with a capacitor and a variable resistor I could try to make it works better, but I really don't know what size I should use.

I think if capacitor is too big the power will continue a bit when I will release the throttle.
If it is too small it will be same problem as I have now.

Thank you if you can help me
See you
48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline Lanchon

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ok, thanks for your answers.

I imagine that the controller limits the throttle rising slope (but not the falling slope) in software, implementing a ramp-up.

whenever the low voltage comparator triggers the throttle is zeroed, and from there it must slowly ramp up till it cuts again, which takes about 1/3 of a second. if a filter is applied at the output, only a small amount of throttle will be reduced per throttle sample period, and once the low voltage condition subsides the throttle will ramp up from there, not from zero.

so this means two things:

1) the filter must block from frequencies in the neighborhood of the sampling period (thousands of Hz?), not frequencies near the current oscillation period (3Hz), so you shouldn't be concerned with this:

> I think if capacitor is too big the power will continue a bit when I will release the throttle.

the delay should be in the order of hundreds of a second, completely negligible. (otherwise, a transistor could be added to discharge the cap when the throttle is lowered.)

2) the oscillations will get smaller in amplitude (and thus higher in frequency, since it's a ramp) the more you filter, and can be as small as you want.

so, do this....

-replace R7with a 1K resistor (or add it after R7 (in series), whichever is easier, since it makes no difference whether the resistor is 1K or 1.1K).

-add a capacitor from the motor controller side of R7 (the "Tout" signal) to ground.

a 1.5uF (microfarad) capacitor with the 2K resistance (R6 + R7) will result in a 53Hz cutoff (but I don't know the source impedance of the throttle sensor, which should be added to the 2K!). this should keep the response time of the throttle below 100ms, which seems fine. a 1uF cap would result in a bit less filtering and faster response. I would go with a 1uF cap and raise it to 1.5uF if I still find any oscillations, which is unlikely.

you can get standard aluminum electrolytic caps (and resistors too) from any old radio, cordless phone, music playing equipment, etc. they look like little cans with two legs. just be sure the cap is visually in good shape and that you don't overheat or mechanically stress it while desoldering it.

the electrolytic caps have polarity. the negative lead must be connected to ground in this case.

WARNING: be sure you have the break cutoff connected before testing this mod. should there be a problem, you can pull the break and avoid disaster.

this mod will probably get you going.

good luck!

Offline mitch_781

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Hello Lanchon,

I tried with a capacitor as proposed with 1µ 3µ 10µF but it seems to have no influence or bad influence, I have less power on the throttle and the frequency of cutting power is more important.

When I tried with 10µF I think I have damaged the throttle sensor because when I tried without the circuit I had no power at all and the bike was not working.

I think I will continue the testings without the throttle sensor and just put a on-off button or if it works replace the sensor by a potentiometer for the throttle.


If you have any idea to help me don't hesitate.

See you





 
48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline mitch_781

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I think I will try this next time.

What do you thank about it ?
Do you think the diode would be necessary to find the best position ?

Thank you
48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline Lanchon

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> I tried with a capacitor as proposed ... the frequency of cutting power is more important.
I find it hard to believe that the oscillations continue with the cap

> the frequency of cutting power is more important.
this sentence doesn't make any sense; please rephrase it.

> When I tried with 10µF I think I have damaged the throttle sensor
this is IMHO impossible

I'm left with the idea that you probably didn't build the circuit as I gave it to you.

please draw the final circuit as you implemented it, with the capacitor and all component values, and post it. also, please describe the behavior of the circuit with the capacitor to the best of your abilities. thanks!

> I think I will try this next time. What do you thank about it ?
I don't understand the problem at this point (the circuit should be working), so this answer is just a guess: your circuit won't solve anything, plus it'll add other issues.

> Do you think the diode would be necessary to find the best position ?
absolutely not. the comparator output is open collector (or open drain), it already "has a diode", it'll never source any current, only sink it.

c ya!

Offline mitch_781

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Hello
To continue on this topic, I confirm my throttle does not work now, I will try to replace it by a trimpot for a moment. I hope it works.

Also I have to check if the circuit is still working or if I burned it during the tests.

For next tests I will try to do something easier (I think) that is :

putting the 2 24V batteries in parallel to get more amps and change the low voltage cut in the controller by modifying

the resistors as it is described in this post :

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4282&start=0#p63469

I hope the controller will work with 24V (if not I'll keep 48v but I would not have low voltage cut)

I'll let you know.

48v 1000W rear motor / 2*24v 4,2Ah NiMH

Offline GoldenMotor

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our 24V magic controller will work with voltage from 18V to 60Vdc without low voltage protection.