Magic Pie delta wye

[Gapy]

dirtyginge:

multimeter lessons no.1  

It is easiest if you have a diode sign on your multimeter-in my case it beeps when I connect the probes. So when it beeps you found it!

If you don't have diode sign, put the multimeter in ohm measuring mode-lets say range of 20ohms, and when you measure the phase it will give you a reading of about 10ohms (dont really know how much ohms I got) but when you are not on the right phase you should not get a reading!!

Now about the colors:

In my case from left to right there are green, blue, yellow.

lets say green is 1, blue is 2 and yellow is 3

now you have three wires called 1,2,3 and on the other you have 1a,2a,3a

connect in this order :

                                         1a -  2
                                         2a -  3
                                         3a -  1


Hope this helps....



And there is no changes to hall sensors required!

[Gapy]

So I measured the top speed - free spin it goes 75k/h , but I assume that controller kicks out too soon!
Went for a short ride cause the roads are all wet and when driving up to 25 km/h it all works fine and I noticed that I don't need to turn off the pie to reset - just need to wait about 5 sec and it reset itself!

Also I noticed that the torque gains with the speed so I think you can hit the 65km/h when driving!

[DirtyGinge]

Hi Gapy...many thanks for your help......All around the world now, there are guys looking at their wheels with a should I shouldnt I line of thought....

Now, I havent done this yet, but I think I may have done this by accident yesterday when changing to the infineon.

Is there a significant noise level, and a lot lot of vibration ?, if so then I did this yesterday, and revved the wheel well past 40MPH, but the noise was really really loud, and sounded as if someone had dropped bolts inside..

The bike was hopping all over the stand .....

[Gapy]

I doubt you did this just by changing to infineon, as you did not dissconnect the three wires and solder them to controller!?
If you have time try this, so that we know what happens with infineon, othervise I will do it in a week....

I do not get any vibration, but sound definetly is boosted!

by the way-did you have any problems getting the wires throu for infineon?

[LOLO]

Hi Gapy, really interesting.. 
I have just two questions: you'r shure don't lost more torque in permanent delta ?
and what volts you use 48 ?
Ah and thank for the lesson...

[DirtyGinge]

Hi Gapy

the infineon colours on the three phase wires are different to the GM external controller, lots of experimentation had to be done to get them right

And as for getting new wiring into the hub, yes it was a nightmare
I got 5 rolls of thin cable for the halls, and the alphawire..getting them in was fine, but I found that the circlips kept cutting into the insulation...in the end I put a couple of layers of heatshrink on the part of the circlip that holds the wires, hopefully this should suffice....all in all, with the internal controller to external controller job, I think everything that could go wrong did lol

[Gapy]

lolo:

the torque is definetly decreased!! probably by factor 1.8... I was just saying that the motor gives more power in highier speed...
And yes I use 48V 20Ah LiFePo4

the infineon colours on the three phase wires are different to the GM external controller, lots of experimentation had to be done to get them right

dirtyginge:

you can not achive delta mode with swaping just the 3 phase wires that goes to the controller!! you must dissasemble the 3 phase wires that are connected together (not on the controller) and solder them on controller-in your case on phase wires that go to controller!
So if you can follow me.... at one time when the 3 phase wires that I am talking about are dissconected you should have a total of 6 phase wires in your Magic Pie!


Anyway... just went for a trip about 5km... Max amp 20A, min. Voltage 51.2V max speed 42.6km/h but there is realy more potential in there!!!
anyone know how can I fool the controller about phase resistance?

[DirtyGinge]

right, got it,

so the bundles of phase wiring have to be split apart....purfect, now it makes sense

hmmm, might go for a complete pie re-wire in the summer, rip all the copper out, and put in some new windings...that for sure will complete my understanding of the system fully, new windings to a different count will make the speed difference anyway...time for honey wine open university

Gapy, many thanks for your time and patience in teaching us mere mortals, its appreciated.....if I can be of help, don't hesitate to ask

regards

[Bikemad]

Anyone know how can I fool the controller about phase resistance?

Unfortunately I can't see an easy solution to it. Changing from Star to Delta effectively reduces the resistance across each pair of phase wires to a third of what it was before, which also means that the current across each pair of phase wires increases to three times that of the Star configuration for the same voltage.

It seems that the GM internal controller does not like working three times harder than it's supposed to.

Does it still cut out at high speed, or are you able to use full throttle provided you are going fast enough first?

Just went for a trip about 5km... Max amp 20A, min. Voltage 51.2V max speed 42.6km/h but there is realy more potential in there!!!

What maximum speed were you getting before the Delta conversion?

Alan
 

[Bikemad]

In my case from left to right there are green, blue, yellow.

lets say green is 1, blue is 2 and yellow is 3

now you have three wires called 1,2,3 and on the other you have 1a,2a,3a

connect in this order :

                                         1  -  2a
                                         2  -  3a
                                         3  -  1a

Now I'm confused in my original diagram, I presumed that the phase order was "Yellow - Blue - Green", because this is the order in which the magnets pass the hall sensors on my Pie when the wheel is turned in a forward direction:



That would mean that:

                              The Yellow phase lead connects to the switched end of the Blue windings
                              The Blue phase lead connects to the switched end of the Green windings
                              The Green phase lead connects to the switched end of the Yellow windings

As shown in my original diagram here:



But you say that you've connected your leads like this:

                              The Green phase lead connects to the switched end of the Blue windings
                              The Blue phase lead connects to the switched end of the Yellow windings
                              The Yellow phase lead connects to the switched end of the Green windings

As per this modified diagram:



Now I'm not sure which one of the above diagrams is actually correct for the Magic Pie.

Either I've got the phase order wrong, or your pie is different to mine, but I'm not sure how can we find out for sure which of the above diagrams is correct, unless you want to pull your hub apart again and try changing your connections and see what happens?

Alan
 

[Gapy]

Bikemad your first diagram is ok!!!


1a - 2
2a - 3
3a - 1

the a was on the wrong side my mistake, gues I was a bit too quick writhing this 

will correct on previous post!!

[Gapy]

It still cuts out when I go full throttle, I was really soft on throttle when trying to achive top speed... Even if I just for a second try to accelerate a bit quicker it cuts off!

Before delta I got a 40km/h maximum speed!! So it is a 2.6 km/h boost up!! yei!!!

[gf3]

I was hoping to do the delta wye conversion one day. But if that is all the speed gain you get I don't think I will bother. Please keep us posted on how you get on. even If it is to say you've given up. 

[LOLO]

this only delta mode is not a question of money to do... if the benefice could be really, why the golden motor staff don't chosen this solution ? I think it's a good study but not for wind of nothing...
I like the Bikemad solution it's could be a electric gear box..! and giving a really benefice...
there is a brave to try this solution ? 

[Gapy]

well, everyone would like a Bikemads solution, but it is no point of trying it if it does not work in delta at all!

I will have to try with lyens infineon controller....