Braking of HBS-48V1000W Solid 16" wheel

[leo1]

100 kms.  Not even close.  25kms nahh not enough range.   38 kms  Hmmm a little closer.

Maintaining a constant 60km/h would require around 1500 watts. If the motor was 70% efficient, you would need to supply 2150 watts to the in order to achieve the required output.

2150 watts / 96 Volts = 22.4 Amps.

12Ah at 22.4Amps = 32 minutes.

Now you also need to take into account the fact that most 12Ah lead acid batteries are not able to supply 12 Amps continuous for 1 Hour.
They are rated 12.0Ah @ 20hr-rate to 1.75V per cell @ 25°C (77°F), meaning it should supply 1/20 of its rating (0.6Amp) for 20 hours continuous if you're very lucky!

One battery that does not perform well at a 1C discharge rate is the portable sealed lead-acid. To obtain a reasonably good capacity reading, manufacturers commonly rate these batteries at 0.05C or 20 hour discharge. Even at this slow discharge rate, a 100% capacity is hard to attain. To compensate for different readings at various discharge currents, manufacturers offer a capacity offset. Applying the offset to correct the capacity readout does not improve battery performance; it merely adjusts the capacity calculation if discharged at a higher or lower C-rate than specified.

If it was discharged at a steady 12Amps, it would reach the Low Voltage Cutoff point (10.5V/battery) in less than 35 minutes (see attached graph), never mind 60 minutes!

If it was discharged at a steady 22.4Amps, I would anticipate it lasting 20-25 minutes maximum if you were lucky, which is why I estimated 20-25km range.

A 12Ah lithium battery with a continuous 2C rating (24Amp) should be able to supply 22.4Amps for just over 32 minutes (32km range @ 60km/h).

Upon reflection, I think my estimated 20-25km range for a 96V 12Ah lead acid battery pack, is probably far too generous.
                     
Alan  

48 VOLT 12 AH / 4 LARGE BATTERIES SLA GELLED BATTERIES WITH STOCK 350/500 WATT MOTOR. 40 TO 60 KM RIDING RANGE DEPENDS ON RIDER WEIGHT, AND HOW MANY HILLS, ALL DAY LONG OFF AND ON, ON A SINGLE CHARGE. 32 KM PER HOUR MAX. SPEED. THATS A FACT! I RIDE IT EVERY DAY! ALL YOU PEOPLE FIRST JUST CHECK OUT THE GIO SCOOTER SPECS.

SORRY ALAN, YOUR FACTS ARE IN ERROR. GIOS ARE FAR BETTER, MORE ADVANCED ELECTRIC SCOOTERS. GIOVANNI SCOOTERS ARE FASTER, BETTER, STRONGER, THAN ANYTHING ELSE ON THE MARKET. NOT TO MENTION THE COOLEST LOOKING. GIO SCOOTERS ARE SIMPLY THE BEST! COMPLETE FOR LESS THAN $500.00 BUCKS.

[Sundsvall]

Please Peter,

Why are you still shouting?
Why do you have to use such an aggressive tone?
Why do you post if you can’t take advices and criticisms?

I think your project is very interesting and looking forward to hear how it’s going, but please inform us in a quieter way?

Peace
Peter

[MonkeyMagic]

48 VOLT 12 AH / 4 LARGE BATTERIES SLA GELLED BATTERIES WITH STOCK 350/500 WATT MOTOR. 40 TO 60 KM RIDING RANGE ALL DAY LONG ON A SINGLE CHARGE. 32 KM PER HOUR MAX. SPEED. THATS A FACT! I RIDE IT EVERY DAY! ALL YOU PEOPLE FIRST JUST CHECK OUT THE GIO SCOOTER SPECS. BEFORE YOU PUT YOUR FEET IN YOUR MOUTHS.

Whoah dude you really love that thing?

Anyway no need to be a nasty pasty. I checked out the scooter specs and its just a china moped. Not bagging them I think they look tops however, they do come with a pretty chunky 12Ah SLA battery and also sorry to correct you but if I rode for 32Km/h then I would last 1.8Hrs by your above quote. So really riding all day I would need to go 2.5Km/h so then I would probably prefer to walk.

Anywho we are currently testing some of these models (different body, same insides) and the biggest you can fit in them is a 20Ah SLA or 30Ah Lithium battery that has to be custom cased to fit under the seat. Putting batteries in that 4mm thick abs plastic boot on the back will break on the first corner it took, that's if you can balance the bike with all of the weight in the back and lean forward so you have two wheels on the ground.

They go 32Km/h, its 350W continuous with a speed limiter switch that reduces the output power of the motor to comply with euro standard. Limited at 25km/h.

Weight is 65Kg and recommended rider weight is 70Kg - Max safe rider/gross weight is 100Kg
Headlight draws 6Amps. I asked my supplier if they also come in mens.

When I was a kid I could chew my big toe lol sounds gross but it was fun then.

Anyways peace man geez

[Leslie]

Maintaining a constant 60km/h would require around 1500 watts. If the motor was 70% efficient, you would need to supply 2150 watts to the in order to achieve the required output.

And where did you pull these figures out from?


Alan do you agree that a brushed motor is less efficient than a brushless?

I I show you a video of me doing 28 kms at 28kph on a 36v 12ah SLA brushed bike. Would you believe that a a 96v 12ah brushless could do 60 kph and make 38kms down the road. Cummon!

My HBS with 6 mth old near dead 60v 36 kg SLAs and ecrazy sensorless controller hard shunted to 20 amps could do 58 kph in a heart beat.  I have no Idea where you got 25 kms from. I honestly thought I was being harsh but your figures are like off this planet,  Sorry but that was very harsh estimation on the poor SLA users,

You really underestimate the old SLA. My New 24ah SLA would own Lipos lol.  They could put out 200 amps with no BMS to cry like a little baby if I wanted.  They big freaking hunks of lead and when freshly cycled could get me 32 kms 50% dod.

Anyway.  Who cares.  as far as I can see you both got it wrong.

[Leslie]

Leo settle down man.  Keep the Shouting and language down.

That scooter has fairings makes a huge difference on economy.  Something most of here wouldnt understand.

I saw one moron go at a recumbent owner in another forum stating it was the most unaerodynamic design hed seen.m  Its was low and sleek.


One recumbent owner here reports 7.7wh/km  This eems a little small to me.  But hey How woukld I know I don't own a recumbent so I STFU.


In fact pedal riders can get up to 89mph using wind fairings, wow I bet hes pushing 200kw into his pedals for like 5 kms to get to speed.

[Leslie]

Actually our GM AU dealer, hello where ever you are. does fairing for motor bikes.  I really am hoping I can get a nose cone and some side bits to hide my knees behind from him soon for my ebike..  All our ebikes could do with some wind fairing IMO.  The two arts electric bikes and wind fairing tech should be holding hands like Hansel and Gretel. 

The electric motor king of efficiency and the iron-less axial flux motor made by us Aussies can do up to 98% efficiency has silver windings with the lowest resistance and maximum inductance for an iron-less motor. Pair that with some good aerodynamics and you have a recipe for one decent EV.  Beat that cruel world.

I read stuff about those scooter owners changing to Lithium batts and their owners are like OMG My scooter is awesome like never before.  They are big and clunky but weight really doesnt matter over the whole ride.  As long as the batts can handle the added load any energy is stored in kinetics.

Kinetics is very efficient means of storing energy, better than Regen by miles.

My father a jockey had to be light for the poor horse to carry him, but when he gained the lbs he had to do horse cart trotts.  As the finish line doesn't care about the drivers weight on the buggy...  All the energy is stored very nicely.  And don't go on about hills, What goes up must come down Newtons best law.  GPE gravitational potential energy is another means of efficient storage energy too.  From home (A) to destination (B) back home to A again you have to travel the same KMS up hills as you do down hills.  The only room we have to gain for efficiency is wind fairing and or low rider recumbents, and iron-less stator is the last stage, I believe there is no where to go after this..

Congratulation world, We have done it.  We just need to put it in a box and make it available to the general public..

[MonkeyMagic]

well that dude who said recumbent bikes are not aerodynamic is a tool

How is that possible? When you are leaning back the wind would be going mostly around you and less resistance because you are leaning back. It would be like leaning forward full road bicycle style that I think makes you look like a total nerdburger

I like recumbent bikes but not sure if they are allowed on aussie roads are they? I never see them on the road... Only ever seen 1 tricycle too in my whole area

[Bikemad]

With 4 batteries, now when I add 4 more batteries plus a 1000 watt motor upgrade. Why should I not expect my speed and range come close to double? /peter

Because of the increase in wind resistance (drag) at speed, you would need to provide 8 times as much power in order to double your speed:

A car cruising on a highway at 50 mph (80 km/h) may require only 10 horsepower (7.5 kW) to overcome air drag, but that same car at 100 mph (160 km/h) requires 80 hp (60 kW). With a doubling of speed the drag (force) quadruples per the formula. Exerting four times the force over a fixed distance produces four times as much work. At twice the speed the work (resulting in displacement over a fixed distance) is done twice as fast. Since power is the rate of doing work, four times the work done in half the time requires eight times the power.

Simply doubling the available power will not double your speed.

If doubling the speed requires 8 times the power (as stated above) your run time will be reduced by a factor of 8 at the higher speed.
Doubling the batteries will double this run time to 1/4 of the original

So, if you can currently do 60km @ 30km/h (120mins run time) you should only expect to go 30km @ 60km/h (30mins run time)

If you double the capacity of the batteries and don't exceed 30km/h, you should be able to get almost double the range on the level.
The uphill range would be reduced due to the additional weight of the extra batteries.

Unfortunately (like most things in life) this is not as straightforward as it may first appear.

I look forward to seeing the actual results when you have finished.

Alan
 

[Bikemad]

Maintaining a constant 60km/h would require around 1500 watts. If the motor was 70% efficient, you would need to supply 2150 watts to the in order to achieve the required output.

And where did you pull these figures out from?


Alan do you agree that a brushed motor is less efficient than a brushless?

Leslie,

These figures were approximated with the help of www.bikecalculator.com (See attachment below.), and the 70% efficiency was estimated from one of the GM power curves.

Although I do agree that brushed motors are usually less efficient than brushless, a brushed motor running at its most efficient speed could still be more efficient than an overloaded brushless motor!

Alan
 

[leo1]

A 96v @ 60 kph if he had the amps flowing he should get faster than this.  Try 70 kph.

Say his motor is shunted at 20 amps due to internal resistance, 70/60 ratio depicts he is only drawing say 17 amps.  12ah at 17 amps = 42 mins running time.

42 mins at 60kph = 42kms.  This is just the quick math as we would need the true watts per km to define the true range.

See the SLA series battery can work as a shunt limiting the amount of current at the expense of a small loss of energy but past the battery divider it more open..  Still entire circuit resistance will be much higher and less efficient with SLA's but E is larger than R always until the batteries are flat.

Much more involved than trying to work it out with guesstimations.

100 kms.  Not even close.  25kms nahh not enough range.   38 kms  Hmmm a little closer.

Hmmm, I get over 40 km distance now with only 4 sla batteries and the stock 500 watt motor. thats a fact! you do not know what your talking about. /peter

[leo1]

100 kms.  Not even close.  25kms nahh not enough range.   38 kms  Hmmm a little closer.

Maintaining a constant 60km/h would require around 1500 watts. If the motor was 70% efficient, you would need to supply 2150 watts to the in order to achieve the required output.

2150 watts / 96 Volts = 22.4 Amps.

12Ah at 22.4Amps = 32 minutes.

Now you also need to take into account the fact that most 12Ah lead acid batteries are not able to supply 12 Amps continuous for 1 Hour.
They are rated 12.0Ah @ 20hr-rate to 1.75V per cell @ 25°C (77°F), meaning it should supply 1/20 of its rating (0.6Amp) for 20 hours continuous if you're very lucky!

One battery that does not perform well at a 1C discharge rate is the portable sealed lead-acid. To obtain a reasonably good capacity reading, manufacturers commonly rate these batteries at 0.05C or 20 hour discharge. Even at this slow discharge rate, a 100% capacity is hard to attain. To compensate for different readings at various discharge currents, manufacturers offer a capacity offset. Applying the offset to correct the capacity readout does not improve battery performance; it merely adjusts the capacity calculation if discharged at a higher or lower C-rate than specified.

If it was discharged at a steady 12Amps, it would reach the Low Voltage Cutoff point (10.5V/battery) in less than 35 minutes (see attached graph), never mind 60 minutes!

If it was discharged at a steady 22.4Amps, I would anticipate it lasting 20-25 minutes maximum if you were lucky, which is why I estimated 20-25km range.

A 12Ah lithium battery with a continuous 2C rating (24Amp) should be able to supply 22.4Amps for just over 32 minutes (32km range @ 60km/h).

Upon reflection, I think my estimated 20-25km range for a 96V 12Ah lead acid battery pack, is probably far too generous.
                     
Alan

YOUR DEAD WRONG ALAN! I GET DOUBLE THAT RANGE NOW AS WE SPEAK. WITH ONLY 4 BATTERIES AND 500 WATT MOTOR. THATS A FACT! SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR STUPID IN ERROR GUESSTAMATES TO YOURSELF. TOMORROW ARE YOU GOING TO COME UP WITH SOME OTHER NEW MATH? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT ALAN. /peter

[Dummy Dave]

YOUR DEAD WRONG ALAN! I GET DOUBLE THAT RANGE NOW AS WE SPEAK. WITH ONLY 4 BATTERIES AND 500 WATT MOTOR. THATS A FACT! SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR STUPID IN ERROR GUESSTAMATES TO YOURSELF. TOMORROW ARE YOU GOING TO COME UP WITH SOME OTHER NEW MATH? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT ALAN. /peter

Since I don't know what you're talking about, even after reading it all, does this have anything to do with Golden Motor?

[leo1]

48 VOLT 12 AH / 4 LARGE BATTERIES SLA GELLED BATTERIES WITH STOCK 350/500 WATT MOTOR. 40 TO 60 KM RIDING RANGE ALL DAY LONG ON A SINGLE CHARGE. 32 KM PER HOUR MAX. SPEED. THATS A FACT! I RIDE IT EVERY DAY! ALL YOU PEOPLE FIRST JUST CHECK OUT THE GIO SCOOTER SPECS. BEFORE YOU PUT YOUR FEET IN YOUR MOUTHS.

Whoah dude you really love that thing?

Anyway no need to be a nasty pasty. I checked out the scooter specs and its just a china moped. Not bagging them I think they look tops however, they do come with a pretty chunky 12Ah SLA battery and also sorry to correct you but if I rode for 32Km/h then I would last 1.8Hrs by your above quote. So really riding all day I would need to go 2.5Km/h so then I would probably prefer to walk.

Anywho we are currently testing some of these models (different body, same insides) and the biggest you can fit in them is a 20Ah SLA or 30Ah Lithium battery that has to be custom cased to fit under the seat. Putting batteries in that 4mm thick abs plastic boot on the back will break on the first corner it took, that's if you can balance the bike with all of the weight in the back and lean forward so you have two wheels on the ground.

They go 32Km/h, its 350W continuous with a speed limiter switch that reduces the output power of the motor to comply with euro standard. Limited at 25km/h.

Weight is 65Kg and recommended rider weight is 70Kg - Max safe rider/gross weight is 100Kg
Headlight draws 6Amps. I asked my supplier if they also come in mens.

When I was a kid I could chew my big toe lol sounds gross but it was fun then.

Anyways peace man geez

do not even think about putting batteries in the trunk. I said under the seat. 4 - 12ah batteries fit perfect under the seat. first wire them together, then duck tape them all together, then wrap them in 3/8" dense foam, then duck tape all around the foam, then get a peice of 1/16"x 5"x 12"inches aluminum sheet metal, then drill 2 holes where the lower seat pan bolts are located, then bend the aluminum to contour to the bottom of the seat pan and line up with the mud guard bracket mounting hole, then drill 1 hole to conect to that bracket. then tape or glue on 3/8 foam to the new renforcing aluminum plate, this will soften any impact, stuff extra foam around the compartment to keep it from any movement, now you are all set, NO WELDING, NO TAPPING. AND, FOR LESS THAN A COUPLE OF BUCKS. its now super supported, super strong, its the perfect solution for adding 4 more batteries under your seat on the GIO SCOOTER. I should apply for a patend.

[Leslie]

Your smart, tell me more. /peter

Im as stupid as I am smart.  I make as many mistakes as the rest of us here if not more.  Maybe the correct term is I am obsessed with ebike tech and I learn by my mistakes, I learn so much.   So much mistakes.

I casn only give my experience with SLA as Ive used them for too long.

Ive found that most SLA's on a direct drive high power hub fail within a month.  I had to go to a 24ah EV series battery.


Try looking at Ritar as they use a combination of AGM and Mulriple Gel in all their EV type batteries, they use the GEL to fill the air spaces inside.

Or I think Fullriver batteries do the Mulriple thing too.  But they must be EV type batteries.  For daily use this is still inadequate but for the weekend rides the SLA is quite acceptable..

Other than that most SLA wont do you much good on GM hubs.

Want more.?

[leo1]

Just so you know you have the CapsLock key pressed

Who cares?