Connecting a Ping Battery to the Magic Pie

[Magzy]

Hi there.

New user here with a quick question.
After hours of research and digging around the internets I have decided to join the Magic pie club.
I'll be buying one in the next few days.
However, I've already bought a Ping battery 48v 10AH
My question is, how easy is it to connect a Ping battery to the battery connection of the Magic Pie kit.

Ideally, I'd like to get the correct female connection for the battery side so I can solder it on and then connect/ disconnect the battery easily.

Has anyone done this previously who can tell me any tips and pitfalls to avoid?
Thanks,
M

[Leslie]

Hi there.

New user here with a quick question.
After hours of research and digging around the internets I have decided to join the Magic pie club.
I'll be buying one in the next few days.
However, I've already bought a Ping battery 48v 10AH
My question is, how easy is it to connect a Ping battery to the battery connection of the Magic Pie kit.

Ideally, I'd like to get the correct female connection for the battery side so I can solder it on and then connect/ disconnect the battery easily.

Has anyone done this previously who can tell me any tips and pitfalls to avoid?
Thanks,
M

Hi Magzy

Welcome to the GM forums.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

But

The ping 10 ah battery isn't enough for an MP IMO.  Ping states you best suit his packs to 1C usage.

The MP can draw 20 to 25 amps at best.

Explaining 1C

If you have a 10 ah pack and you draw 20 amps from it when you take off and go up big hills you are drawing 2c

If you only draw 10 amps from a 10 ah pack its called 1C

If you draw 20 amps out of a 20ah pack its called 1C.

The bigger the amp hour AH pack, the bigger motor you can run. The C cell rating still doesn't change just the size motor you can run/ah..



What you plan to do is draw 2C from a 10ah pack.  There is no reason you cant buy another matching pack and run two together.

Ping does rate his packs modestly and if those who use them stick closer to9 his ratings enjoy a long Ping pack life,

Contact Ping and tell him your plans he will agree with me and advise another 10ah pack.

I will go as low as a 15ah pack with a very light Magpie bike just used for a runner.  

For heavy use either get the A123 cells, lipo, 20 ah ping or the GM pack.  The only main stream lifepo4s that can do better than 2C are headway and A123 cells and maybe a few that don't come to mind.

Sorry to put a downer on your project but its better to find out now then run into some expensive problems later.

[Magzy]

Thanks for your quick response and advice.

This does indeed cast a shadow of doubt over my project now.

I specifically chose ping because of his reputation and quality (and 10AH is perfect for me as I only have 14kms to ride each day)

Ok, so looking at pings website for the 48v 10AH: http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-13/48V-10AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

States the following:
Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 30 Amps

So yes, it's rated at 1c as you say but Ping states it will go up to 30 before it cuts out.

I only plan to travel 15km including up a couple of short (200m) moderate hills.

I'm fairly new at this but, according to my calculations, Producing 1000w (ish)  (before losses) from the MP at 48v will draw approx  21Amps current from the battery?
(48v * 21A = 1008W)

If I somehow manage to up the amps to 29A (just before ping BMS cut off) then I'll produce 1392W out of the MP (1113W onto the road) after losses which would never be reached because you said that "The MP can draw 20 to 25 amps at best." in your post above.

Surely this is enough for getting 120kg's (me+bike and stuff) over 14km with 2 moderate hills in 200m ish length (picture the steepness and length of the museum steps that rocky runs up in Rocky with half the city's kids chasing him - that's how steep the hills I have to climb) - 20 to 30 second burst of amperage.

I know it's not great for the pack in the long term but I'm prepared to make this sacrifice for having a smaller battery and the cheaper cost. (which means getting mobile quicker)
If, for example, it only lasts 3 years instead of 4 then this is fine by me.

I just don't want to get the MP with the Ping 48v 10AH and on day1 find myself traveling at 10kmh with old people in wheelchairs overtaking me.

Having wrote all this I feel moderately better than when I started it -  but please, tell me if my n00b-ness is still showing signs of n00b and I've missed something that I should be aware of ?

Cheers,
Magz

[Magzy]

Now you got me thinking about batteries and why I chose ping over GM here goes.

GM 12AH Battery
No cut off protection given
Max Discharge Current: 35A
Max Continuous Discharge Current: 20A
No rating given

Charging Cycles: >800 times

Cost inc postage = $511
est cost without case $ 495
Cost per AH =$41

Ping 10AH battery
Cut off protection at 30A
Max Discharge Current: 40A
Max Continuous Discharge Current: 20A
Rated discharge current 1C

Lifecycle of the whole pack:
>85% capacity after 1000 cycles.
Lifecycle of single cell:
>85% capacity after 1500 cycles,
>70% capacity after 3000 cycles.
(when used at <1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

Cost inc postage = $428
Cost per AH = $42

As you can see the cost per AH is practically the same. I've included postage because we all know these postage numbers are always massaged to make the product appear more or less expensive.

Not enough info regarding the GM batteries in order to make an informed choice.
A bit more technical info will set the expectation for the end user.
if it performs better than expected then the user is happy and the manufacturers reputation goes up.
if it performs worse then the user is unhappy and manufacturer reputation goes down.

However, here, the expectation of a GM battery can't be established except that it will last > 800 cycles

If I run my ping 48v 10AH into the ground and really hammer it and only get 800 cycles then I'd be happy with this.  800 cycles = 3.33 years (based on 240 working days and a charge each day)

Cheers,
Magz

[Leslie]

Rated discharge current 1C

Thats 10 amps.

There is more than cycle life you need to worry about, early failure could occur running a ping pack at 2.5C constant.  Its a gamble youre willing to take, so thats ok.  

You may be easily lucky and it could do 1000 cycles, I really hope you do, cause I just bought a 20 ah and a 15 ah ping pack.

The GM packs for the quantity they sell I think seem to be fine.  Many peeps are rocking around with them them.  A few have come up a bit short.  Some of the riders may have their maintenance skills upgraded. Or an odd failure.


I was shocked to hear GM sells 9000 kits a year.  I wonder how many batts went out with them.  We got 6 or so failures here and IMHO early failure rate is under the 1%.

The quality is picking up across the board for the companies that stay true to the cause..  Man it would be so easy to get screwed as a business buying Li cells.

I did some research

The BMS has to be pretty picky to protect the cells and can shut down if not balanced properly, the fix for this is leave the pack on the charger for a few days and she will come good.  Interesting because I had to do the same form my SLA's every now and then.      

I so wanted a GM pack with the battery box, but  I and my other half between us can ride three 12 ah cycles a day every day.  Even though I want to have two bikes I want each pack to last me a couple of years or more.

Man I got sick of SLA's two years of swapping out lead every 6 mths or so.

Yea maybe set your amps setting low on the Pie for the first 20~40 rides or so and bump it up slowly,  Cycle them up a little, get them well balanced and jumpin before you hammer them,,



Hey good luck with the MP and ping pack.

I cant wait for mine.

Sincerely.

LESLIE
317537

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi Magzy,


Leslie is right, Start off gentle with your ping and don't completely drain it. Don't hammer it either. Try keep to the 1c rating for the first 5-10 cycles. 

My ping has not had a single balance issue yet. All the lights come on at the same time after charging! and I must say, I didn't break it in too gently either! No one knows the longevity issues with these batteries, they could go for a lot more cycles than we think!

Going up hills I can pull 40 amps with my 20 amp ping, but most of the time on level ground it pulls 15-20 max! I have not run the battery empty yet. They are excellent batteries those pings. 

I would say you will be fine if your round trip is only around 15 kms or so. I have managed to peddle for 15 Kms or so and only use 2 amps. Then use the motor for hills and when I get tird. If you use it like that you will be fine.

Did you buy the Internal controller pie? if so then It will probably not consume more than 15-18 amps MAX. around 750 watts @48-52 volts. So I don't think you will have to worry about that in the end, Pings batteries are more than capable of 1.5-2C, and again that's only peak, going up hills etc.

Regarding your battery connections. I just got 2x 50 amp Anderson connectors. But you could get away with 30 amp. I don't know what comes with the pie, It looked like an Anderson, but I chopped it off as I had 2 spares lying around! the 30 amp connectors look like this

http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/30-amp-red-black-anderson-powerpole-sets.html

GM's 12 amp battery would have more than suited your needs. And not that much more expensive when you include shipping. However I think the longer lasting chemistry would be the ping!

Max Discharge Current: 35A(12AH)/60A(16AH)
Max Continuous Discharge Current: 20A(12AH)/30A(16AH)

They also have a BMS!

Anyway Magzy enjoy your ebiking it's fun, especially when you ride one for the first time! 

[Spacey]

The Magic Pie kit does not use more than 15amps anyway, the ping should be ok if you pedal on standing starts first.

I built a 48v 12ah battery that can put out 100 amps continuos and 160 amps peak based on lifepo4.

I really think that with an un-modded ping battery you would be fine if you don't mod the Magic Pie. To be on the safe side get a 15ah battery from one of the cheaper eBay battery pack sellers....works out about the same as the 10ah from ping.

[o00scorpion00o]

I really wouldn't buy a battery from any eBay seller, unless I knew their reputation. There are a lot of dodgy batteries out there, and eBay is where a lot of them are being sold.

Just use your ping  and if you do need an extra battery, then buy another ping.

From reading other forums, there have been lots of problems with batteries not providing full capacity, and are having balancing issues.

Ping has a good reputation!

[e-lmer]

I noticed for a while there were several ebay sellers
with pingping and ping123 like names, all purporting
to be "The only 'real' ping battery dealer."

You just can't tell.   It's like those guys selling
gm products as their own.

[Leslie]

I almost got caught in that.  There been a new wave of Ping Shady's on the net.

Will the Real Ping Shady please stand up.

[Magzy]

Thanks guys this really helps me out a lot.

Having never rode an e-bike it's difficult to tell exactly what you will need until you get it and then test it out.

Did you buy the Internal controller pie?

I haven't decided yet. However, looking at the 15-18 amps for an internal controller seems a bit low for me.
Although 18A * 48v = 864W into the motor and 691W onto the road continuously (after 20% losses in the motor)

Now, to put this into some sort of perspective, Lance Armstrong can ride up the french alps generating about 500w of power onto the road for 20 minutes, something a typical 25-year-old could do for maybe 30 seconds.

Soooo, my question is, what is the amperage of the GM external controller out of the box? (nothing on the GM website indicating this)
Also, can the amps limit of the internal and external controllers be increased by the programmable interface?
if so, to how much? (I know there's caveats on the limits over blowing the controller, overheating etc but has anyone done this and lived to tell the tale of still having a workable controller?)

Cheers,
Magz

[Leslie]

Edited.

[Magzy]

So I just want to know the limit in Amps the external controller that comes with the MP will allow out of the box.

And, can the amp limit on the controller be amended up and down using the USB cable? if so, to what is the range it will allow the user to program it?

Thanks,
Magz

[Leslie]

Damn!
 


I am so sorry Magzy.  I didnt get any sleep last night and I cross posted.. Frustration.  

Most report 20 amps cont and 25 amps max.

Yes the USB cable can limit the max and cont amps but not allow any more amps above the shunt or any bad connections.


The shunt should be 20 amps 25 amps max too.

Email GM and you wont get a real answer either if any answer at all.  So these figures are just the general consensus here..


Sorry for the confusion.

Thank you.

Oh dear I just realized what I have done.  I was interacting in one tab with some members and read your question in this tab and it didnt make sense.

Oh never mind please forgive me.

[Spacey]

317537 you are right about the Ping copies and cheaper brands, but I do find Ping batteries very expensive for what they are. VPower do a cheaper one that is 15ah but I do not know how reputable they are?

I think you would be lucky getting 20 to 25 amps out of the GM controller, I could not coax more than 15 amps no matter what setting I did with the USB port. Had to bridge the shunt on mine, although I went over the top with over a hundred amps on take off.... but man did it take off he he.

I had a Cyclone 900W kit before this pie and used it with a 36V 15ah Ping battery that seemed to cope really well until I realised that I was using 30 to 40 amps on it average, no way the Ping could take that strain. The Magic Pie is so much more economical with the battery. Even with my over the top mod now on my Pie I still only use 0.5 amps a mile, and once it gets to 25mph the amps drop right down to 15amps again?

You will be happy with the Magic Pie wheel just get a good battery source for it. I still think the Ping will be ok for a while if you don't accelerate from stop using just the motor....peddal then motor and save up for another Ping.