Author Topic: Fuse selection issue  (Read 18539 times)

Offline Dennyb123

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Fuse selection issue
« on: January 04, 2010, 03:33:38 AM »
I recently purchased a Magic Pie motor. I'm going to be using a 36 volt lead acid 14ah battery setup. I want to install a 30 amp fuse. All I can get locally is a fuse with a 32 volt rating. Will this work ok with my setup?

Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 03:59:23 AM »
No it wont.

Look at finding a 50 amp car audio amplifier fuse.

They come in Gold plating :P

Here check out these.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GOLD-PLATED-50-AMP-AGU-FUSES---4-PACK-INLINE-AGU-FUSE_W0QQitemZ190358348448QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091216?IMSfp=TL091216193002r637
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 04:03:22 AM by 317537 »

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Offline e-lmer

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 04:21:07 AM »
You may also look at this breaker:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350275488127

I actually looked for 20Amp, since that is where the power cord started
to heat up.  (Technically those computer style cords are rated at 12A, isn't that funny?)

Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 04:30:01 AM »
I found 30 amp to be a little lacking however I do have a high loads at times.  I even did a 40 amp fuse in a trailer roll incident, but hey the 40 amp fuse was prolly doing the job as intended. But not having a spare fuse had me pushing my SLA Beast home looking for something on the side of the road to bypass.

Breaker are good as you just reset the buggers.

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Offline Dennyb123

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 02:17:36 PM »
No it wont.

Look at finding a 50 amp car audio amplifier fuse.

They come in Gold plating :P

Here check out these.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GOLD-PLATED-50-AMP-AGU-FUSES---4-PACK-INLINE-AGU-FUSE_W0QQitemZ190358348448QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091216?IMSfp=TL091216193002r637

I was thinking of going with those fuses. I actually have a couple 60 amp ones. The only problem is that the fuse holders seem to only except larger wire diameters. I should be able to make it work though. Do you think a 60 amp fuse is acceptable or is that overkill?

By the way, thanks for the input. This is my first e-bike.

Offline e-lmer

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 06:59:58 PM »
IMHO, if you are planning on a 60A fuse, you might just as well not use any.
The wires won't run 60A, so if you got a short they
would most likely burn out before the fuse anyway.

The rule of thumb is that you take your max continuous and call that
80% of the protected current.

Call  1000W/36V about 30A just to be generous.  Then 30/.8 is  37.5A
40A is just over that, but 60A is nearly twice the allowable current.


BTW, my 20A is based on it being a 500W@36V setup.  I don't know if you are
safe running 1000W@36 in a Magic Pie or not.

Anyone know the answer to this?

Offline Dennyb123

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 07:31:12 PM »
I was thinking the same thing about the 60 amp fuse. I'm starting to lean towards the circuit breaker. What is everyones thoughts on these? I like the idea of just pressing a button to reset it.

Offline e-lmer

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 08:52:33 PM »
I am quite happy with the circuit breaker I installed in my battery box.

Be sure that the breaker is thermal and rated for the DC voltage you use.
(many are rated for higher AC Voltage, but you need to be DC.)

Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 01:47:23 AM »
As long as your happy this is important.

And yes, ratings are important too.

Here is what I think.


Aussie standards with the 240v mains stuff is better for DC EV's IMO.

Self resetting thermal Breakers use two different expansive spring materials on top of each other formed into a reed and fashioned to be closed contact, when heated one expands more than another creating a bow in the reed and breaks the contact, Click! When it cools the breaker re-contacts.





Manual reset method uses electro magnetism "EM" and a piston that breaks the contact when high current is passed through the coil.  IMO would work faster than heat.  Is this necessary for our needs?




Maybe your temp rated manual reset breaker is based on both types.  Without looking right into this I assume this type of breaker is well available.

For a dead short battery protection on a LIPO, I think I would rather the EM type or fast blow fuse, for a wheel lock up, a heat triggered breaker or slow blow fuse would suffice. And the EM type would serve for both short circuit and wheel lock events, as long as it isn't too sensitive and annoying.

I read a "if" breaker has tripped a few times it becomes more unreliable due to the contacts gaining more resistance. To what degree I don't know.  But a few resets is better then only one when considering a standard fuse. It may be advisable to replace a breaker if it has tripped a dozen times or so.

The main reason I went to a 50 amp fuse is because I was using a $20 controller when the power supply to that controller was cut REGEN tooK out the fets, otherwise I used no fuse at all.


Over time, nothing electrically we do on our bikes is really continuous, anything before the controller may look smooth but I'm certain caps don't smooth current draw from a battery perfectly, anything after the controller is almost AC, or better labelled as pulsed DC. Even a DC motor straight onto the terminals draws power in pulses, its just PWM can take efficient advantage of a magnetic moments that inductive EM coils like to resonate.  Residue magnetism is left over on the low and still active within the coil former.  IMO its not just the FET bridge that enjoys the advantages of PWM, more so with motors at low RPM. PWM duty cycle, when short converts to lower voltages in the motor coil as it would with switch mode regulation.

I once had a theory voltage boosting via an inductor to a motor would yield better speed performances, but this was flawed on the grounds that the inductance of the motor and a high originating voltage served the exact same purpose more efficiently based more upon current consumption and torque modelling instead.

I stray off topic a little here.

The linkage between the battery and controller caps is all interesting to me.  

My switch for instance is rated at 240v AC, 30 amps continuous and possibly 50 amps peak. My bike is lucky to draw 14 amps most of the time so Id rate my switch at 100v 50v 30 amps.

I was always lead to believe AC transmission was better than DC but, upon reading, DC seems to be better but only on the bases that the DC endpoint is converted by an inverted AC load, DC transmission lines is just a link for the inverters to milk power from.  Interestingly this is similar to the supply a controller is given and takes. Advances in EV tech would inevitably take advantage of these inventions if it needs to.  

Filtering only seems to take out ripples to supply a device for practical operating specifics.  Instead of current ripples between 0 and 30 amps cap filtering transforms ripples that more approximate from 20 amps to 10 amps respective of duty cycle, load and voltages.  I'm sure my ball park figure are a bit off the mark, however you already know what I mean.

Unless its a simple battery and constant current load like a heating element; maximum, minimum, averages, time, and frequency works its way into the math when considering current demand.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 03:55:23 AM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 02:56:43 AM »
I was thinking the same thing about the 60 amp fuse. I'm starting to lean towards the circuit breaker. What is everyones thoughts on these? I like the idea of just pressing a button to reset it.

Depends on your battery, motor and controller.

Current draw is limited by your BMS, controller and to a smaller degree your motor.

Many BMS's have current limited to less than 60 amps and controllers can be limited to a lower 20~30 amps.

This means current peaks may reach your pack at most 30 amps on a 20 amp controller and 40+ amps on a 30 amp controller.  Especially when you connect the controller to a battery.  The controller has a device called a capacitor before all current limitation so that the motor demand on the capacitor doesn't out source the supply.  The shunt in a controller limits the motors draw from this cap not the power supply.

Put it simple, a hair trigger fuse will blow too easy when you just connect a controller to a battery.

60A is too big and wont blow or break. 50A is too big.

30A IMO would have to rely on slow blow technique to survive peaks and could create a small amount of heat over the connections during normal operations.


Slow blow for high demands may get a little warm to achieve a good blow balance as current demands for EV application can vary so widely on the throttle and heat dissipates slowly.  When choosing a fuse, you want to overshoot peak current demand during normal operating usage and cut it as fast as possible when this is surpassed.

Lithium batteries can certainly give up a huge amount of power very quickly and in a short circuit event you want the fuse to blow as fast as possible.

I've read large lithium packs can disintegrate whole wrenches and cause serious burns in dead short events.  


With my trailer accident where the trailer rolled and managed to slow the GM HBS motor on a 20A controller to a dead stop in an ultra fast way, the 40A fast blow fuse worked a charm.  The HBS motor only draws around 20 amps continuous at max in high demands.  The beauty of this larger 40A fuse was the fuse gave out in the way I wanted it to. The wheel had to be halted suddenly so no REGEN was apparent to hurt my fets.


The MP draws approx 24A continuous on high demand as per data sheet, so add another 20A onto that.

You don't want to have to replace a fuse unnecessarily during small events.

45A fast blow fuse is what I would get for an MP.

Breakers are more reliable as you can reset them.

A 40 fast breaker.  Not thermal.

A 35 amp thermal breaker.


Edit:

You could opt for a 35amp slow blow and a 45 amp fast blow in series.  This is a perfect solution for most events.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 03:37:00 AM by 317537 »

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Offline Dennyb123

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 03:31:09 AM »
Thanks for all the help. I'm going to order both a 30 amp and 40 amp breaker. They're only around $10.00 each. I'll start with the 30 amp. If it keeps popping I will try upgrading to the 40 amp. My bike most likely won't be done for a while. I'm slowly working on it bit by bit. So far I've finished fabricating the battery box. I still need to weld up the custom rear rack. I also have most of the wiring done. I have a battery disconnect switch located conviently on the battery box. I also wired the lights button to turn the power on via 3 automotive relays. The triggers wired in a series to allow them to be switched at 36 volts. I'm very anxious to finish the build.

Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2010, 03:44:30 AM »
Thanks for all the help. I'm going to order both a 30 amp and 40 amp breaker. They're only around $10.00 each. I'll start with the 30 amp. If it keeps popping I will try upgrading to the 40 amp. My bike most likely won't be done for a while. I'm slowly working on it bit by bit. So far I've finished fabricating the battery box. I still need to weld up the custom rear rack. I also have most of the wiring done. I have a battery disconnect switch located conviently on the battery box. I also wired the lights button to turn the power on via 3 automotive relays. The triggers wired in a series to allow them to be switched at 36 volts. I'm very anxious to finish the build.

Remember!

I think E-lmer is using the same type of motor as me (HBS) and it doesn't draw as much power as the MP.

30 amps is leaving 5 amps head room on the MP and this is a little close IMO. Make absolutely sure the breaker is thermal or just use the 40 AMP breaker.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2010, 03:49:43 AM »
Actually!

Please inform all of us here as to what type of breakers you buy and how they perform with the MP under your specific usage. EG. Bike weight and hills your breaker has to withstand.


Your information is all important.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 03:54:12 AM by 317537 »

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Offline muzza.au

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2010, 08:54:29 AM »
G'day all,

As well as having an electric bike, I also have an electric mower. It has a 1000w brushed dc motor, but normally runs on 24v at 30a max. It used to keep blowing fuses when the blades got stuck in long or thick grass, so I replaced the fuse altogether with a circuit breaker. I chose a 20a one, which may seem less than the 30a fuse it had but the specs are as follows:
20 Amp Circuit Breaker

These circuit breakers are rated at 250VAC
- SAA approved.

Specifications:
- Maximum voltage 250VAC or 50VDC
- Will hold 100% of rated current indefinitely at 25°C
- Will trip within one hour at 125% of load at 25°C
- Will trip within 4 seconds at 150% of rated load
- Mounting hole diameter 12mm
- Size 35(H) x 30(D) x 14(W)mm
- 20 AMP

So what that means is it can run on 20a easily, is supposed to hold 25a for an hour, but when it reaches 30a it will trip within 4 seconds. In practice its not that simple. When mowing the load on the motor is going up and down all the time and if I've let the grass grow too long, the blades will bog down more often and will trip the breaker as a result. But I would rather that then blow the motor, which I somehow did at one stage when I still had the fuse, but fortunately it was when it was still under warranty and so I got a new one. When it does trip a button pops up and you have to press it in to reset it. But you have to wait a minute or so for it to cool down because if you press it straight away it will just trip again straight away.

Following is a picture of it.

Muzza.au

Offline Leslie

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Re: Fuse selection issue
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2010, 12:15:48 PM »
24v X 30 amps = 720 watts.

The 1000 watt rating is prolly motor maximum. Which can draw 40 amps.




Magic Pie.

48v X 24 amps = 1152 watts. Max continuous.



HBS48 @ 84v @ 20 amps = 1680 watts.  :o saturation plus.


Its not just about blowing your motor, as you can do this with the best circuit breaker in the world.  Battery protection, short circuit protection. controller protection should be considered too especially with LiFePo4 packs.

I think your mower would be enjoy using a thermal sensor too, the circuit breaker saves a lot of heat every time its tripped.  



http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15093

Quote
PS: Here is a video of this poor 15Ah cell taking some abuse. :) I've kept one 15Ah cell freshly cycled, and not abused, and this other poor guy has been my little test dummy. He has been dead shorted a few times by mistake, he vaporized a wrench for me, he has been stepped on and folded a bit (oops!), and has taken 500amp continous discharge from 3.7v to 2.0v about 10 times. Amazingly, his capacity has actually increased just a whisker, and he still performs great, though I think I've managed to increase his Ri a little (I got him too hot a few times). This idea was to determine of these things were delicate cells or not, because sh*t happens in EV applications, and it's important to know your pack isn't going to be killed if a controller shorts inside or something. I think we can rest assured these cells, and the tabs on the cells are very much up to the task handling the full 30C. I've hit this 15Ah cell with 700amps (47C) and the tabs stayed fine, voltage dropped quite a bit though. Here is a quick little video to see the sort of abuse I'm putting the cells through, and they take it like champs. This is my whipping-boy abused/damaged/overheated cell, and he still performs. Note that voltage gauge is a 0-200vdc gauge that has crap accuracy at these voltage ranges. The current gauge is a 0-800amp shunt type, and I calibrated it to match my fluke, I wouldn't trust it right down to the amp, but I would definately trust it to be +-10amps. I use a scope when I do Ri measurements of course, but it doesn't show up on video worth a damn unless you're focused on on it, so the meters are just to be visible in the video and give an idea of the current these things can pump.

Read the Bold.  I am confused a little, was this a 3.2 volt cell vaporising a wrench?

 :o :o :o :o

Honestly Id rather use fast cut off and overshoot the max.

Or as I suggested use a slow breaker like yours and something snappy to take out circuit really fast when a short occurs.

Two fuses for two different things.

Question.

Would a 40A fast blow fuse blow faster than a 30A slow blow on a 50 amp load?

I will have to do some testing here.  :D

I like a good fast blow and slow blow together.

Any offers.   8)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:26:59 PM by 317537 »

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