How Respecting European Legislation

[Towi]

Having a look to the Golden web site and again this user forum, it seems to me that the actual standard is a 36V motor configuration.
The cut-off is at around 36kph (about 22mph) on 26" wheels. This is a nice to have, but seems for me not to correspond to the european laws for e-bikes, which say:
- max. assisted speed 25kph (about 15mph)
- nominal motor power 250W
- pedelec system.

Ok, pedelec system is available.
Motor power should not be a big problem. The legislation is at that point not very clear. It don't speaks about maximum power. And the motor will never work contiously at maximum power, important is the rated power.
So the real problem is cut-off speed for motor assistance.

Are there controller versions existing for different states ? Because I saw in another thread, that California seems to have even a higher speed limit (30mph) ? Happy californians, should get Schwarzenegger back to Europe 

Does there exist an european controller version, cutting off when exceeding 25kph ?

The other possibillity would be to reduce voltage. Going back to 24V should reduce speed limit to about 25kph.

Should I opt for a 24V version kit ?
Or is it possible to use the 36V kit, but with a 24V battery for on-road and a 36V for off-road ?

A lot of questions.
Thomas

[mustangman]

 Us Happy Californians have alot of ground to cover and limited public transportation, unilike most european contries whcih have a vast well developed mass transit systems.(Californians LOVE their automobiles and even Arnold drives a big HUMMER!) My best advice is to buy a good speedometer to keep under the kph limit, and do not open the throttle to full speed. Enjoy the full benefit of having the extra power for going up hills and better range on flat land with the 36 volt system.(It is like having a BMW that can go 300kph but the speed limit is only 110 kph, you still have to obey the law but the extra power is their if you need it.) 

[Dalecv]

Use the 20 inch or 508mm wheel version of the kits and your top speed with 36 volts will be 15 to 16 mph which should be close enough to the 25 kmh speed. As long as the EU hasn't converted its batteries to metric with different voltages this would work.

[mustangman]

....and like I said get a good speedometer and keep your hand out of the throttle, beside with all the other crime, do the police actually have time to hand out speeding tickets to bicyclist?? If they do, they need to take a vacation!!! 

[Towi]

Thank you already for your interest.

Initially I had the same reflex of thinking: ok, the kit goes higher speed, so I just need to control speed and stay under the limit.
But legislation for bikes is different than for cars. Cars may go higher speed, but you have to respect speed limits and catch perhaps a ticket if you exceed them 
Bikes may exceed the assistance speed limit of 25kph, but the assistance must stop going higher speed. And normally when I’m going downhill or even on flat I go much higher than 25kph.
So there is no speed limit but a speed limitation for motor assistance.
The difference is that a bike not respecting the legislation for pedelecs changes the category and must pass an official approval. Then you need to put a helmet, you need an assurance, you pay vehicle taxes.
It’s not a question of getting or not a ticket, but in case of not respecting the bike risks to be confiscated and I don’t like to imagine what would happen in case of an accident and assurance would draw back because of non-conformity of the bike (pedelec) …

That’s why I’m looking for staying as closest as possible to the legislation, even accepting some compromise exceeding a little the legislation limits.

The idea of using a 20” wheel is good, I’m wondering of the experience that even with this small diameter the achieved max. speed was much higher than expected. That’s strange because looking on the motors characteristics, the no load speed is given with 308rpm, so the max speed should never exceed 29kph. Are you sure you were on flat ? There must be a parameter which was overseen.
At that point I’m already decided, because I’d like to put the kit on a 26” mountain bike. So this solution falls.

My intention is for the moment using a 36V kit with a 24V battery.
Did someone already this experience ?
Or would it be better to buy directly a 24V kit ? (But I wanted to be free to use a 36V battery off-road also)

[myelectricbike]

Cutoff voltage for the 36 volt controller is 31.5 volts so unless you reprogram the circuit with the right resistor, the cutoff is much too high for 24 volts. However, in regard to the law seeming to be inconsistent from country to country.

This may be due to the fact that the strength of bike frames, brakes, etc. differer widely from country to country. While 36 volts at 20 amps may not exceed the strength of bike frames, brakes, etc. in one country, 48 volts at 20 amps may exceed the power range a bike typical of another country might handle.

[OneEye]

I think it has more to do with the way different countries interperet the purpose and safety of an electric assist vehicle.  Here in the States they set the power limits high, pretty much saying if Lance Armstrong or velodrome sprinters can go this fast it should be OK for anyone.  Some countries have looked at the long-term power output of a typical rider and chose power outputs and speeds such that an electric assist bike can't go much faster than a typical rider.

Of course, nobody has ever accused legislatures of being rational, so it may have just as much to do with where the darts landed on the power chart when they were drafting the legislation.

[mustangman]

  If you think the law is unfair or outdated, contact your member of parliment to propose changes that would benefit the E-Bicycle community such as a slightly higher kph. Alot of these laws were made when bicycles(with or without motors) could only go 25kph, but now with technology such as 24 speed carbon fiber ultralight bikes or efficient affordable electric hub motors, anyone can go twice as fast just as easy. I am sure there are people just like you who do not want to break the law, get them together to change the law to make it more attractive to leave the auto at home and take a bicycle to work instead.(If they could go faster, it would take about the same time as driving a car!)  Best Wishes

[Towi]

Today most bikes are produced in Far East (China etc.), so I don’t think there are great differences in frame strength. For sure there are differences between different bike types depending on the expected usage.
So I think as well that the differences in the legislations are more due to different perception of safety in different countries, but also must match with the existing directions. It would be illogical to suddenly allow ebikes to exceed largely the lowest category of motor cycles or approach already the scooter category. Maybe with the increasing number of ebike legislation will be adapted once. But I’m not so optimistic, when really the number of automobilists would decrease and the number of ebikers greatly increases the bureaucrats will be very inventive to introduce new restrictions and for sure new taxes. State needs money and finds always a way to get it.

Getting back to techniques:
For adapting the controller cutoff voltage I saw the other thread and it would not be to difficult to adapt that, perhaps by putting a switch allowing using different batteries and voltages. Perhaps a voltmeter could already sufficient to survey the battery discharge.

Are there other points to respect ? E.g. current limitation should not change when changing battery voltage.

Using the regen controller, would it be harder to ride higher speeds by pedaling with a 24V battery because of regeneration starting earlier ? Or is there a way to disable regeneration when needed ?

[myelectricbike]

Since regeneration is controlled by microcode it may be possible sometime in the future to offer a standard operation mode as well as to adjust for various supply voltages thru a variable regulator. Not in this version.

Bottom line: regardless of where a bike frame and components are designed or manufactured it is the level of strength intended. Alloy frames can not handle the torque of a 36 volt motor, much less the torque of a 48 volt motor. However, an alloy frame with 20mm hangers might be able to do the job. While 2mm spokes might suffice 2.3mm might be required.

Regardless of country the issue of safety is one of personal scrutiny at this go-round and will perhaps be given the attention in later go-rounds of the government regulatory agency.

[OneEye]

Sorry, Towi, I don't think we intended to thread hijack and move off to left field. 

Adapting the low voltage cutoff of a 36V controller to 24 volts >should< work, but I can't guarantee success.  In the cutoff voltage thread, pdonahue traces the power supply to the microcontroller, and it looks as though a 24v system will still provide enough voltage to run the microcontroller.  I can't say for sure what the effects on the motor would be.  If there were a direct relationship between voltage and power you would still technically be over the limits (~300W for 24V), so that may not help you negotiate with the constabulary/gendarme/polzei any more than keeping an eye on your speed and taking it easy on the throttle.  You could always get some tool stamps or an engraver and stamp "250 Watts @ 24V" on the motor case .

I'm just glad the restrictions here in California are much more forgiving.  Write letters to campaign to change the law!  I don't have a speedometer, but I'm pretty sure I averaged almost 15mph for 7 miles in to work this morning under pedal power alone.  That included starts, stops and a 1-mile stretch of gravel road where I crawl along in one of my mid-gears.  I am no Lance Armstrong (or a Floyd Landis, either), so the European e-bike power assist speed limit seems low to me.  It might be helpful to point to the test laws in Canadian provinces rather than to the US law as an example when you write to your parliamentarian.  My impression of dealing with Europeans while I lived in England was they are actually prone to resist an idea that is promoted by "that's how they do it in America", but there is a much closer kinship with Canada.  (Unless you're in the Netherlands.  They seemed to be very friendly to Americans.)

-Mike

[Towi]

Thanks for your answers.
@myelectricbike : would be great getting some more flexibility. Changing parameters of a controller is not so difficult, if you have a look to brushless controllers for RC.
Do you think there will be once a version update for the actual regen controller ?

@oneeye: Seems that the controller would work on lower voltage, perhaps there needs to be done a little adaptation in the controller supply (I think should be 5V).
The 300W will be ok; must be in the tolerance. Most of ebikes I saw (on paper) sold here are exceeding the 250W limit, but important is that power decreases when approaching 25kph. I doubt even if one police man would know the legislation. Great idea with the 250W stamp!

Changing laws is a long way, but I think referencing to other experiences (if positive) does always help. For resistance to ideas coming from America you might be right, but if these ideas help energy saving or reduce pollution they will for sure be welcome

[myelectricbike]

Frankly, I have little hope of speedy upgrade for the regen controller. My solution now is to take two controllers with me.

As for 24 volts I can hardly imagine the assistance at 24 volts being worth the effort. Seriously at near 31.5 cutoff voltage the level of assistance is almost embarrasing. (Try not to notice or wave at friends.  )

Also while low voltage will definitely burn out an AC motor, I do not think this is a problem for 3 phase BLDC motors, although I may be wrong.

[gilgeg]

pedelec system is available?

Bought a ebike conversion kit from golden motor (24v 250w and a battery Nimh 13Ah) , but didn't get the PAS system (Product code: PED-0001 ) When I tried to buy it separately the didn't respond and I couldn't get a PAS system fitting for the kit anywhere, so now I have a full working ebike which I can't use in Europe, does anybody know where to get it ?

[mustangman]

 Email myelectricbike at ebike@verizon.net or Raul at Perfecteam(listed on the golden motor site as idstributor) for the pedaltec .