Bad Controller?

[zeusmorg]

I would state this all again, but it is easier just to copy my correspondence with the Golden Motor staff.
Anyone having additional ideas or how to test anything else, feel free to chime in.

Dear Sirs.

 I recently purchased a 48v 1000w rear hub motor kit. I have finally gotten it assembled on a recumbent only to find out it does not work.

 I get 3 beeps when testing, which indicates a bad throttle. As I had the twist throttle also I substituted it for testing purposes,to the same result. I have also checked out all the components external of the controller and can find no faults.
 I also added inline fuses from the battery pack for protection,which is something you should consider adding to the package.

 This has led me to the conclusion that I received a faulty controller. I do wish to get this replaced in a timely manner. My question is, how do I get this resolved?

 This project was started with the possibility of adding electric recumbents to our line of
products. However until I can verify the quality of what I sell, I will not go forward.

 My controller has the numbers MX-48C-EB-D  09030467 on the label.

From: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
To: xxx@hotmail.com
Subject: goldenmotor
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 10:19:15 +0800

Hello Sir
 
Before sending,we have test all of your products.
 
If gets 3 beeps,the problem must from throttle.Maybe there is some problem with the throttle connector from the controller.
 
The best way to test is cut off the wires (green,black,red--white,blue,red).Make these wires are connected directly,without connector.
 
Another way is to do as "item 5" 
Thanks
Tom
Goldenmotor

Dear Sirs,

 I still have the same situation.

 I bypassed the plugs from the throttle and cruise control switch and soldered them together. I ge 3 beeps on power up. I tried step 5 and I get no beep. and I also get no power to the hub motor, except a quick "jerk" and that's all, and this is not consistent.
 I also checked resistance on all other contacts and found them all good.
The battery pack I am using is fully charged,  this is a 48V ni-cad pack and fully charged gives me 51.6 V.

 The alarm and anti-theft function , however does work.
Tom: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
To: xxx@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: faulty controller
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:24:35 +0800

Hello sir
 
If it still has anti-theft function,the controller is okay.
 
The problem  is still from the wires been connected.
 
Could you take a photo or movie to me?
 
What the meaning of quick "jerk"?
Is that when you turn your throttle,quick "jerk" from motor?
 
Regards
Tom
GoldenmotorDear Sir,

 The problem is NOT from the wires connected. I have taken a multi-meter and established that there is 0 resistance across every connector to the controller.
I removed and inserted the plugs on the controller several times, inspected them visually and see nothing wrong with those connectors.  I tested every switch.
I swapped out the twist throttle to test.
I have checked my voltages to the controller.

The only thing I haven't made sure is good are the throttles themselves. I tried testing them off the bike, with a multimeter to see if I got varied resistance and I get no results on either one. Of course I am not sure what these readings should be.

 My results are consistent. I plug in my battery pack, turn on the soft switch I get 3 beeps. Then if I hit the cruse control button, one pulse is sent to the motor, that is all.it will not do this again until it is turned off and back on. If I turn off the soft switch and move the bike then the alarm sounds and the motor "locks up".

 I also tried step 5 holding the brake lever while hitting the cruise control button 5 times. It will beep once, and then upon hitting the cruise control button I will get one pulse to the motor.

 I get no response whatsoever from either throttle when connected to the controller.

 I am no amateur when it comes to electric troubleshooting. I worked several years as an import car technician, and I was relied on to find strange electrical problems.
From:         Tom (zhourenli@goldenmotor.com)
Sent:    Wed 6/03/09 9:17 PM
To:    xxx@hotmail.com)
Hello sir
 
There is something wrong with your wires.
 
The thin green wire from the throttle should  connect red wire,(+),not black wire(-).
 
Best Regards
Tom
Goldenmotor
To:     tom goldenmotor (zhourenli@goldenmotor.com)

 That black wire has a WHITE stripe. it's positive.

[stl_recum]

This might help,

With the controller powered up there should be 5 volt dc between the red wire (T1) and the black wire (Z).
The red wire should be positive.

As you turn the twist grip or press the thumb throttle the voltage between the black wire (Z) and the white wire (T2) should increase from zero to about 5 volts with the white wire (T2) being positive. You should be able to read these values at your splice and also at the controller terminals which are a little harder to get to.

If these values are all correct, I would say you have some other problem.

Other people that have had simular but different problems on the formum have missed the connection from the "g" terminal to the positive side of the battery.

good luck

[Philip Lynott]

Hi,

All I can say on the matter is that I found it usefull to use a stick connector to make all the connections, this forces you to use the wiring diagram availible on goldenmotor.com (which is correct), is neater than using the connectors supplied and should help in trouble shooting.

Good luck,

[ccbreder]

There should be a varied resistance across the throttle.

[zeusmorg]

 With the controller powered up I get .86 v across the red and black wires.  I wiggled, the connections on the controller, and also pulled it apart and reconnected it. Same results.

 I get no reading between the black and white wires on voltage.
Nor do I get a varied resistance reading,ccbreder are you sure the reading ia variable on resistance? I don't believe the throttle is a potentiometer.

 Sorry but I have no clue what a stick connector is. I've checked my wiring against the schematics and It is all wired properly. I did add inline fuses for safety.

[zeusmorg]

I really feel I am getting the runaround here.
 I have TESTED EVERYTHING. All these tests point to a faulty controller.

If you had read my e-mails, you would see the results.

My shipping address is:
(omitted for privacy)

I expect a replacement throttle to be shipped out in the next 24 hours.

If these conditions are not met. I will begin posting all this correspondence in the various forums that I am a member of.

These would include most of the bicycle forums that are on the internet.
 It would also include most of the EV forums on the internet.
 It also includes several Renewable energy forums that are on the internet.

So now my question to you is, Is continuing this runaround really worth all the bad press that will be generated?

 Up to this point, I feel I have been extremely patient in attempting to get this resolved, however that patience is at an end.

 So do you really wish to loose me as a customer over the $74 cost of a controller?
Do you really wish to loose the potential customers that will search the various forums looking for which system to buy?

 This will also be posted to your own forum now.

 
 

From: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
To: xxx@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: faulty controller
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:50:28 +0800

Hello Sir
 
Please check your voltage.
 
When you put throught your battery.
 
1.The voltage of throttle
  red and green wire:4.4V
  red and black wire:4.4V
 
2.The voltage of hall
  red and black wire:4.9V
  green and black wire:4.9V or 0V(when you turn your wheel,the voltage will change)
  yellow and black wire:4.9V or 0V(when you turn your wheel,the voltage will change)
  blue and black wire:0V or 4.9V(when you turn your wheel,the voltage will change)
 
If the voltage is normal,your motor will work.
 
Best Regards
Tom
Goldenmotor

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: xxx
    To: tom goldenmotor
    Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 5:51 AM
    Subject: RE: faulty controller

     The black wire, if you look closer has a white trace on it, It is a positive feed from the fuse and battery.

     It looks like I have found the problem. From the forum:

    " This might help,

    With the controller powered up there should be 5 volt dc between the red wire (T1) and the black wire (Z).
    The red wire should be positive.

    As you turn the twist grip or press the thumb throttle the voltage between the black wire (Z) and the white wire (T2) should increase from zero to about 5 volts with the white wire (T2) being positive. You should be able to read these values at your splice and also at the controller terminals which are a little harder to get to.

    If these values are all correct, I would say you have some other problem.

    Other people that have had simular but different problems on the formum have missed the connection from the "g" terminal to the positive side of the battery.

    good luck"

     With the controller powered up I get .86 v across the red and black wires.  I wiggled, the connections on the controller, and also pulled it apart and reconnected it. Same results.

     I get no reading between the black and white wires on voltage.

    So it still looks to me as if it's the controller. Now how do I go about getting it replaced?

     If it is not the controller then why do I not have +5v present at T1 out of the controller?

    From: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
    To: xxx@hotmail.com
    Subject: Re: faulty controller
    Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:25:18 +0800

    Hello sir
     
    There is something wrong with your wires.
     
    The thin green wire from the throttle should  connect red wire,(+),not black wire(-).
     
    Best Regards
    Tom
    Goldenmotor

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: xxx
        To: tom goldenmotor
        Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 2:26 AM
        Subject: RE: faulty controller

        Dear Sir,

         The problem is NOT from the wires connected. I have taken a multi-meter and established that there is 0 resistance across every connector to the controller.
        I removed and inserted the plugs on the controller several times, inspected them visually and see nothing wrong with those connectors.  I tested every switch.
        I swapped out the twist throttle to test.
        I have checked my voltages to the controller.

        The only thing I haven't made sure is good are the throttles themselves. I tried testing them off the bike, with a multimeter to see if I got varied resistance and I get no results on either one. Of course I am not sure what these readings should be.

         My results are consistent. I plug in my battery pack, turn on the soft switch I get 3 beeps. Then if I hit the cruse control button, one pulse is sent to the motor, that is all.it will not do this again until it is turned off and back on. If I turn off the soft switch and move the bike then the alarm sounds and the motor "locks up".

         I also tried step 5 holding the brake lever while hitting the cruise control button 5 times. It will beep once, and then upon hitting the cruise control button I will get one pulse to the motor.

         I get no response whatsoever from either throttle when connected to the controller.

         I am no amateur when it comes to electric troubleshooting. I worked several years as an import car technician, and I was relied on to find strange electrical problems.



        Tom: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
        To: xxx@hotmail.com
        Subject: Re: faulty controller
        Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:24:35 +0800

        Hello sir
         
        If it still has anti-theft function,the controller is okay.
         
        The problem  is still from the wires been connected.
         
        Could you take a photo or movie to me?
         
        What the meaning of quick "jerk"?
        Is that when you turn your throttle,quick "jerk" from motor?
         
        Regards
        Tom
        Goldenmotor

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: xxx
            To: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
            Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:07 AM
            Subject: faulty controller

            Dear Sirs,

             I still have the same situation.

             I bypassed the plugs from the throttle and cruise control switch and soldered them together. I ge 3 beeps on power up. I tried step 5 and I get no beep. and I also get no power to the hub motor, except a quick "jerk" and that's all, and this is not consistent.
             I also checked resistance on all other contacts and found them all good.
            The battery pack I am using is fully charged,  this is a 48V ni-cad pack and fully charged gives me 51.6 V.

             The alarm and anti-theft function , however does work.

           

            From: zhourenli@goldenmotor.com
            To: xxx@hotmail.com
            Subject: goldenmotor
            Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 10:19:15 +0800

            Hello Sir
             
            Before sending,we have test all of your products.
             
            If gets 3 beeps,the problem must from throttle.Maybe there is some problem with the throttle connector from the controller.
             
            The best way to test is cut off the wires (green,black,red--white,blue,red).Make these wires are connected directly,without connector.
             
            Another way is to do as "item 5"
             
             
            Thanks
            Tom
            Goldenmotor
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: xxx
            To: sales@goldenmotor.com
            Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:44 AM
            Subject: Faulty controller

            Dear Sirs.

             I recently purchased a 48v 1000w rear hub motor kit. I have finally gotten it assembled on a recumbent only to find out it does not work.

             I get 3 beeps when testing, which indicates a bad throttle. As I had the twist throttle also I substituted it for testing purposes,to the same result. I have also checked out all the components external of the controller and can find no faults.
             I also added inline fuses from the battery pack for protection,which is something you should consider adding to the package.

             This has led me to the conclusion that I received a faulty controller. I do wish to get this replaced in a timely manner. My question is, how do I get this resolved?

             This project was started with the possibility of adding electric recumbents to our line of
            products. However until I can verify the quality of what I sell, I will not go forward.

             My controller has the numbers MX-48C-EB-D  09030467 on the label.

[stl_recum]

All I hear from you is I checked it and its broke. Fix it.

All I hear from Golden Motors is that it worked when it left the factory, its wire wrong.

There is some place in between that where you are both wrong.

When you buy a kit, you take the responsibility to assemble it correctly, check it out for safety, and diagnose any problems with some help from the vendor.

You stated that you were a foreign car mechanic so you had some skills, if you were to buy a engine from a customers car and install it in his car and it didn't start; would it be the engine rebuilders fault. You would do the best of ability to diagnose the problem before you called the rebuilder.

If saying that "I have check the wiring" is the extent of you diagnostic capabilities then maybe you should buy completed bike assemblies. 

With all that said, here are some starting point to diagnose your problems:
1. Connect only the battery to the controller.
2. Power up the controllor.
3. Check the +5 and Zero Terminial on the controllor.
4. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, I no Golden Motors owes you a new controllor.
5. Power down the controller.
6. Now add the connection of the motor phase lead (the big wires)
7. Power up the controllor.
8. Check the +5 and Zero Terminial on the controllor.
9. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, I no Golden Motors owes you a hub motor.
10. Power down the controllor.
11. Now add the connection of the motor FET leads (the small wires).
12. Power up the controllor.
13. Check the +5 and Zero Terminial on the controllor.
14. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, I no Golden Motors owes you a hub motor.
15.  Power down the controllor.
16. Now add the connection of the throttle leads.
17. Power up the controllor.
18. Check the +5 and Zero Terminial on the controllor.
19. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, I no Golden Motors owes you a throttle.

Continue this process until you find a device that is dragging down your controller 5 volt supply.

Patients is the key part of any sucessful diagnostic process.

Hope this helps

[ccbreder]

Good advice.

[zeusmorg]

"1. Connect only the battery to the controller.
2. Power up the controllor.
3. Check the +5 and Zero Terminial on the controllor.
4. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, I no Golden Motors owes you a new controllor."

I did, again,, and the reading is .86v

So they owe me a new controller.

 First off, why wasn't I given all the test parameters in the first e-mail? Instead of.. one test at a time per day.. if that.. If you had gone through that many e-mails to get the information to test it, wouldn't you be frustrated?
Now they are not even answering my e-mails.Except to say this is for sales only e-mail here.



"All I hear from you is I checked it and its broke. Fix it."
No, I included my specific test results in some of those e-mails, didn't i?

No I didn't go over exactly every test and result it total 100% detail in every e-mail,

I'm sorry if you feel that I have not "gone through the proper channels" however I have tested, re-tested,, tested again, and I get the same results every time.. there SHOULD be 4.4v at pin t2 on the controller, there is not!
Everything else tests good.

 At this point, I am searching for a controller that is compatible to this system to at least recoup part of my losses, I have 450+ invested in this system and it does nothing.
To me, that is not "petty change" I can just say , oh well, my loss.

And actually you left out a few things

2.5 Connect the small red lead to + (soft switch lead)

11 should read Hall sensor leads.

 In any case, this still does not excuse their current refusal to answer any of my e-mails.

[Perbear]

Zeusmorg,

Lack of reply is always frustrating. I believe that you will get a replacement controller from GoldenMotor but unfortunately my believes does not help you, but keeping this thread warm does
 
Anyway, at least a good fault diagnostic procedure for the BAC series controllers has come out of this (with the help from you and stl_recum):

A) Controller diagnostic
1. Connect only battery to the controller. Remember to connect both main + terminal and the small red lead (soft switch lead) to + on battery
2. Power up the controller using the battery key switch.
3. Measure voltage between + battery terminal and GND on controller. Verify that you have at least nominal battery, if not go to chart B)
4. Measure voltage between + 5V terminal and GND on controller. Verify that you get about 5V. Replace controller if voltage is less than 4V.
5. Power down the controller.
6. Now connect the three motor power leads (the big wires)
7. Power up the controller.
8. Check the +5 and GND terminal on the controller.
9. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, if not replace or fix motor.
10. Power down the controller.
11. Now plug in the Hall sensor connector from the motor (the small wires).
12. Power up the controller.
13. Check the +5 and GND terminal on the controller.
14. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, if not replace or fix motor.
15.  Power down the controller.
16. Now plug in the throttle connector.
17. Power up the controller.
18. Check the +5 and GND terminal on the controller.
19. Do you get about +5 volts. If yes continue, if not replace or fix throttle.
20.  Power down the controller.
21. Now plug in the horn connector.
22. Power up the controller.
23. Listen to any beeps from the horn. If any beeps are heard, use the Controller manual to diagnose any remaining controller errors.

B) GoldenMotor battery/Power diagnostic
1. Preparation: Disconnect battery from controller. Turn on battery power key switch. Measure voltage directly on battery connector on battery. If less than nominal voltage recharge battery then continue.
2. Connect a resistive load to battery that uses more than 0,1A and less than 1A. A 50 to 100 ohm power resistor that can handle the power is nice. If you do not have a suitable power resistor, an incadescent lamp (120V & 40W / 230V 75W) is a suitable substitue.
3. Measure voltage over load. Is it nominal voltage or more the battery and connections are working.
4. Measure voltage over load. Is it less than 1V then power up the battery charger and connect it to the charger input on the battery and repeat measurement. If the voltage is much higher now, the charger supplies too low voltage (verify) or battery is defect.
5. Disconnect charger and load.
6. If there is a glass fuse acessible from the outside of the battery casing, remove it and measure its resistance. Replace fuse if it is not fully shorted (much less than 1 ohm) and go to step 2.
7. If there is a resettable fuse acessible inside a rubber diaphragm, try to push it in to reset in case it has been trigged. If this could be the case, go to step 2.
8. Check battery power cable. If it is OK open battery connector end carefully. Avoid damaging wires or making shorts - that could set your house on fire
9. Reconnect resistive load to battery.
10. Measure voltage over load. If it is different now you probably have a bad connection somewhere - look for loose connectors, loose crimps and bad soldering.
11. Measure voltage drop over key switch and fuse. Make sure the switch is turned on. If there is a real voltage drop (typically more than 100 mV) replace or fix the part.
12. Disconnect load.
13. Put on battery lid carefully, verify that no cables are caught between housing and lid and observe correct position of lid.
14. Turn on power switch.
15. Measure voltage directly on battery connector
14. Reconnect load.
15. Measure voltage over load.
16. If battery is still not supplying any power to the load replace battery.

[GoldenMotor]

We've already shipped out the controller and throttle. Please be patient.

[stl_recum]

Can we get the complete diagnostic steps added to your instruction guide.
        (maybe your technician can add some technical details, that I left out - specific voltages ...)

It would go a long way to provide information to the customers in the future.
        (saving him or her some unnecessary frustration)

And as a vendor you can ask how far through the process they have gotten to help evaluate their complaints.

Even if this maybe beyond the capabilities of some of your customers, with this information he or she may have a "geek" friend or co-worker that can help.

Knowledge is power, don't hide it, enpower your customers. They are your best advertising.

[GoldenMotor]

Yes, we are upgrading our instruction guide as we speak. The main problem here is that the guide was designed for the Magic Pie, because all the existing hub motors will not perpetuate. Magic Pie will be the new era.

[TheKid]

Are the new 12ah 36v batteries available yet? Or will they become available when the Magic Pie goes on sale?

[zeusmorg]

 I finally received my replacement controller, and yes it fixed the problem, just as I originally suspected and then found the parameters to properly test.

 I still feel that customer service is slow, and the responses vague and uninformative.