Please explain how the PAS works on the MP Edge

[Ronrrm]

Does anyone know how the PAS is supposed to behave on GM Edge motor?

I only have a few rides in on mine, but I cant tell if the PAS really works or how to  set it or even tell if its working.

Ideally, I'd like it to just kick in and multiply my peddling effectively increasing speed.  Can it do this without additional sensors?

I don't have a pedelec sensor or torque sensor, just the controller, throttle and the BAC-601 display or the Bluetooth dongle(for programming).

What I noticed was that if I set the cruise at say 8mph, PAS at 5 on the 601 display, I only saw values in the wattage display when I dropped down below 8mph.

My average speed was about 10mph so didn't see many wattage values other than zero.  To me that's not PAS, that's the cruise kicking in.  Maybe it was working above 8mph but it so subtile that its not noticeable...dunno.

If it does work without additional sensors, what controller settings would demonstrate the most extreme effect of the PAS...If I could experience that, I think I could adjust it to my riding style.

Ron.

[MrFred]

I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe you will get any PAS effect without at least a cadence sensor. It's the only way to know you are pedaling.
See https://www.goldenmotor.ca/FAQ/questions.php?questionid=167

plus I believe there are other entries on the blogs on this topic

[Ronrrm]

So, you are surmizing that without a sensor, PAS does exactly nothing. 

I don't doubt it, just want to be clear, because as you pointed out there are numerous posts on PAS but none of them actually say that (or maybe I didn't read them all carefully enough).

Little background on the confusion...

I originally ordered the pedelec sensor from GM, it didn't come with the delivery.  I called and talked to Gary, he told me that there were less than desirable results withe the sensor and I'd be better off without it.  He graciously refunded the pedelec.

I guess another question is...is the GM pedelec sensor just junk or is it that the controller PAS function is not so hot.  If the sensor is junk, then is there a better sensor that works well with the controllers PAS functionality?

Please 'UN'-confuse me.

ron

[MrFred]

I am reluctant to try to answer all your questions as I am not an expert on this topic. I do have an MP Edge on one of my bikes, but only use it with throttle (and sometimes the "cruise control" button - which should more accurately be called "current control"). And it works well for me.

However, I do believe that without either the pedelec ring (cadence sensor) or the THUN sensor (torque sensor), you have no PAS.
The pedelec ring is just some magnets that detect you are pedaling and that tells the controller. The controller then decides what to do. As I understand it, depending on which PAS level you are in, it will deliver that level's amount of current, no matter how hard/how fast, etc you are pedaling.
From the GM web site:
Product Description
Golden Motor Pedelec. Please note this item does not perform as expected. A real pedelec will sence the pressure on your pedals and adjust the throttle to increase the harder you push and decrease if you push less. The GM pedelec only sences if you are pedaling. If you pedel it goes full throttle, if you don't pedal it applies no throttle. This pedelec works well with the small mini motors that freewheel. With the larger Black Magic and Magic Pie direct drive motors its not that good. But it may help with the authorities if you are regulated to require a pedelec. In that case you could use this pedelec with a Cycle Analyst to controll of the power when pedelling.

UPDATE - This pedelec can now successfully be used with MAGIC PIE 5 OR SMART PIE 5 CONTROLLERS as long as you use a SMART DISPLAY or BLUETOOTH DEVICE to change the pedelec power settings to match you riding speed and conditions.

The THUN (torque sensor) on the other hand can detect how hard you are pedaling and sends that signal (variable voltage) off. However, I am out of my depth here, but I don't believe the MP controllers can support that properly. This is why the suggestion is to put a CA V3 in the loop which will accept that torque sensor signal and control the current accordingly (Note that a CA V3 is north of $200 itself).

Again, perhaps someone at GM can probably answer this more clearly.

[Ronrrm]

Yep, MrFred...exactly what I read, that's why I'm a bit confused, but I tend to agree it seems that without either add (magnetic sensor or torque sensor+CA) on devices there is no PAS.

I'm with you, I use the cruise set around 8-10mph and pedal 'over the cruise' at around 12mph.  When my speed drops down below the cruise speed the motor kicks in.  I have the acceleration set to 60, so its a slower to get back to speed (makes me pedal and get the exercise).  I'm totally fine with that operation, seems to be conservative on the battery and forces me to pedal...but I'd like to understand my options.

I'm one of those that needs all the information before I make a decision.  I have zero experience at this point, so need to rely on others that have done it.  I read that the torque sensor+CA route is a bit touchy, not clear that it was a setup issue or just the way it is; this isn't much different than the discussions that involve the pedelec sensor.

What I'm wondering is why they say 'if you pedal it goes full throttle', then what do the 1-5 levels do with that setup?  Does it apply full throttle (current) until the wheel rpms at at a multiple of the pedal rpm...at level 1 and X pedal rpm you get X times 1, at level 2 you get X times 2...etc, or is to be taken literally if you are pedaling and it spikes to full throttle and stays there?

Agreed, it would be nice if someone from GM or someone who has tried this stuff describe the options and setup for either technology, kinda like...put these parts on, set this like this and you get this effect, otherwise buy these parts and set this to that and you get this effect.  I find the posts are interesting but some are really old, so don't know if they are germane to the current tech.

ron.

[JJ]

Ron, I put the GM pedelec sensor on my Smart Pie equipped bike. I also bought the USB cable and the bluetooth dongle at the same time. I do not have the Smart Display. Without changing the parameters with the USB or Bluetooth, the PAS reads the fact that the pedals are spinning and gives full throttle, right up to the max speed (on my SP/700c rim it was about 28mph/45kph). Like Gary Salo, I found it to be completely unacceptable.

Using the USB cable, I changed the parameters as follows:

Maximum Forward Speed: 20mph/32kph [My state requires 0 assistance above 20mph -- otherwise it needs lights, horn, and registration as a motorcycle].
Acceleration: 50 [Also called ramp-up rate]

This gave a usable, although not perfect, PAS/Smart Pie combination. Then I connected the Bluetooth dongle, and tried to figure that out. Unlike some others here on the forum, I was immediately able to change and save parameters using Bluetooth, so I went for a test ride. Changing the PAS level didn't seem to change anything, until the highest level, when all at once it seemed to accelerate the same as it did before changing the parameters (top speed was still limited to 20mph, tho'). I was able to pedal up to a comfortable speed on the lower PAS levels, but pressing the CC button didn't do anything. To use the CC, I pressed the thumb throttle until I could just feel it kicking in, press the CC button, and then it would act just as if there was no PAS connected at all. In other words I was using the PAS to get up to speed, then using cruise to maintain that speed.

It all worked after a fashion, but unfortunately, while going for a 47 mile ride, 18 miles from home the BT disconnected and wouldn't reconnect (I suspect there were other BT devices near). I was able to ride home accelerating at full blast and using the throttle and CC to maintain my speed (as if it wasn't programmed, or was at the highest PAS level), but I stopped to try BT a number of times and it just wouldn't reconnect. At home, after shutting it down & charging the battery, it did reconnect to BT, so I suppose it would have, if I rebooted after I got far enough away from the interference. It cut out on me as I was approaching that same place on a later ride, which is why I suppose it was BT interference that caused the glitch.

[JJ]

An added note to my previous post:

I re-read the original question and all the posts. No, the GM PAS sensor is NOT junk. I see you have the BAC601 Smart Display. The Golden Motor PAS sensor from Gary will work perfectly with that display. You will need to have either the USB cable and a computer or the Bluetooth dongle and an Android phone (>Android 4.4) (and the appropriate software Gary provides on his website), to make sure PAS is enabled (should be enabled by default), Max Forward speed is set (if you need that), and control the acceleration (ramp-up), which I found very important. I found a setting of 50% works well for my front Smart Pie on a hybrid road bike with 700c rims.

The biggest problem with the PAS sensor is that the wiring from the motor controller does not include a connector. You have to buy a separate connector plug and connect the wires from the motor to it (so you can unplug it when you have a flat tire, for instance), or figure out some other way to get it connected. I cut off the original end that came on the PAS and used bullet connectors and shrink wrapped the female connectors, then shrink wrapped the whole mess to waterproof it. If I have a flat, I have to cut off the outer shrink wrap, but flats on the front wheel are about 10% as likely as on the rear, and I can use the bullet connectors to get back home.

About my setting of 50% on Acceleration: If I am moving slowly (say 5-8 mph) in a crowded, congested area, I don't want the motor to provide LOTS of acceleration when I start pedaling. I found 1/2 of a turn on the pedals would add about 3 mph at Gary's suggested (for his bike) 80%, so I reduced it to 50% and there it has stayed. IIRC, it takes about 12 seconds to reach 20 mph at that setting, and, with CC on, I can pedal at that speed for over 40 miles with my battery. Since acceleration uses up a lot of power, I am using more of my own power to get up to speed than if set at a higher value.

[Ronrrm]

Thanks for the explanation JJ, I get it.

Now that I've had a month or so on the ride, I definitely am satisfied with the CC/pedal method I started using.  I get fantastic battery life, just over 10% per hour.  I can enjoy the ride as the hills are no longer an issue, get great exercise and every now and again hit the throttle for a little bit.  Now and again I wish had the 52v battery so it would go faster, but 20mph on my Catrike is fine with me.

If I did anything to improve the ride, it might be to add the torque sensing BB; right now don't see it being worth the additional pile of $$.

Ron