Author Topic: Questions from a new member  (Read 6412 times)

Offline Domenico

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Questions from a new member
« on: April 21, 2013, 09:00:28 AM »
Hi to all,

I'm new to post on this forum even if I'm reading it since a while as I was deciding which ebike solution to choose.
My name is Domenico, I write from Italy and I apologize if my english is not so correct.
You all gave me a big help in making  up my mind clearly and now I received from GM China my brand new Smart Pie wheel with two GM 24V 20Ah batteries, throttle, lights and what else.

Now I have some doubt about how to put all the things in order to work:

1 - the rear and front lights I received have both a small "36v" label on them. Will they work as well with my 24V batteries?

2 -  could anybody confirm that I can connect the two batteries in parallel in order to double the range of autonomy without making any damage.  I honestly says that I already had this clue from the seller but I'm so scared to do some damage that I would like to know if someone actually tried to. Do I have to switch on both the keys or only one at the time?

3 - as far as I understood from this forum reading, the internal controller seems to be the most fragile part of the system. Do you have some advice to preserve it?

4 - which are the maximum Ampere continous and peak values accepted by the Smart Pie?

I know are a lot of questions and I'm afraid some answer already was in some place I've been not able to find but I really hope to find help.

Thank you very much for your great work!

Domenico

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 02:42:29 PM »
Hi Domenico andto the forum.

1 - Your LED lights will work fine with your 24V batteries, but they will not be quite as bright as they would be with a 36V battery.

2 - You should not have a problem connecting the two 24V batteries in parallel as long as they are both at the same state of charge (similar voltage readings) before you connect them together.
They should ideally both be charged together, and always used with both batteries turned on to ensure they remain properly balanced.
If the batteries become out of balance during a run (because you forgot to turn one of them on when you started off) you must not allow them to both be turned on at the same time until their voltages have been equalised.
You can turn off the lowest voltage battery and then turn on the higher voltage battery and continue to use your bike until they are both at similar voltages.
Switching on both batteries when they are at substantially different voltages can put a very heavy load on the battery cells and the Battery Management Systems.

3 - Try not to allow any water near the controller cable outlet or around the cooling fan area while washing your bike off, and keep your bike in the dry as much as possible.

4 - The maximum current settings on my Smart Pie's controller are 30 Amps Continuous and 70 Amps Peak, but the maximum readings I have measured whilst riding seem to vary between 32-35 Amps. ;)

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:07:31 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 06:05:37 PM »
Hi Domenico,

Regarding your question about parallel usage of your batteries, I have a couple of thoughts.

First, if you want to use them both at the same time, it is good engineering practice to use isolation diodes, so a failure in one package will not affect the other. 

Second, and this is just my personal preference, I would only use one battery at a time.  (I'd still use the isolation diodes, tho.)  Using both batteries will not improve performance, only extend the range. If you are commuting, I would use one battery in direction, and the other to get home.  As I understand it, battery life is extended by not discharging them to the lower limit.  (Alan please help me here) 

Have fun with your bike,

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Domenico

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 08:53:01 PM »
Thank you all, your kind answers are the gratest welcome one could hope.
To Morgen 3Eman: do you have any link to suggest about installing insulation diodes for this batteries?
Bye.

Domenico

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Parallel batteries
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 12:49:08 AM »
Second, and this is just my personal preference, I would only use one battery at a time.  (I'd still use the isolation diodes, tho.)  Using both batteries will not improve performance, only extend the range. If you are commuting, I would use one battery in direction, and the other to get home.  As I understand it, battery life is extended by not discharging them to the lower limit.  (Alan please help me here)

I would definitely recommend running both batteries together in preference to one at a time. Combining the two batteries should produce a slight increase in the total available capacity (and therefore total range) compared to using both batteries, one battery at a time.
Each cell's available capacity will vary according to the rate at which it is discharged, so by running the two packs in parallel you are effectively halving the load being applied to each pack, discharging them more efficiently, which will also output a greater capacity:



As each pack only needs to supply half the current, the voltage sag (drop in voltage under load) on both packs will also be reduced, therefore the motor should produce slightly more power while drawing 30 Amps from two batteries than it would if it were drawing 30 Amps from just one, due to the slight variation in the voltage being delivered.

The above graph shows the voltage level per cell at different loads (0.5C, 1C and 2.25C) I would not be surprised to see a voltage drop across an eight cell pack of at least 1V.
Even if the difference in voltage sag was only 0.5 volt, it would still provide an extra 15 watts of power for the motor, giving an increase of approximately 2%.
  • 2x batteries supplying 30A @ 25V = 750W
  • 1x battery supplying 30A @ 24.5V = 735W

So from my point of view, combining two batteries in parallel will produce a lower discharge rate on both batteries, which will effectively produce more power and allow a higher capacity to be extracted from the batteries, which allows a greater range too.

I personally would not bother with the added expense and hassle of installing a couple of 50A diodes, as I would not want to reduce the available battery voltage by an additional 0.6V because I always want as much power as I can get.  ;D

If the two batteries were connected in series, then I may well consider connecting a suitable diode across each of the battery's output terminals, just so the motor could still run at half voltage if one of the battery switches or BMS was to fail. 

Regarding the suggestion to use one battery on the outgoing trip and the other to return home, it is highly unlikely that both trips will include identical inclines and headwinds etc., so it is inevitable that one battery is going to be discharged more than the other, which could greatly reduce the life expectancy of the most used pack in comparison to the other.

If the morning route to work was mainly downhill, the afternoon return trip would obviously be mainly uphill, this (combined with a tired set of legs at the end of a working day) would produce a huge difference in the discharge state of the two batteries by the end of the day.
Lithium cells will generally provide a longer service life if you only consume less than 80% of their total capacity, so I think you'll agree that it would be a lot better to discharge both batteries evenly by 70% instead of one being discharged by only 50% and the other by as much as 90%. ::)

If two identical batteries are being used simultaneously, it should not be possible for any imbalance to occur and their life expectancy should also be fairly similar.

I hope the above information helps to throw a little bit more light on the subject.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 12:59:48 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 01:11:19 AM »
And now you know why I asked Alan for help on the subject. :)

The dude just knows so much specific stuff!  Do what he says.

TTFN 
Dennis

Offline Domenico

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »
You all are simply great for your way to share the knowledge :) :) :) :)

I'll keep you informed after have tried both solutions.

Domenico

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 06:35:29 PM »
Hi Folks,

After some more thought on the subject, I would still use the isolation diodes.  Granted there will be a small power reduction by using them, I see them as a tremendous protection against human error.  We all know that Alan and Dom and Dennis will never have the problem, but I suspect my neighbor "Wanda", would somehow manage to fully charge one pack and not charge the other.  The charge/discharge current upon closing the second switch would be tremendous.  I have seen the results of a similar Lead Acid battery pairing, and there were battery parts and acid all over the place.     Would it happen with a Li battery? probably not, but it still wouldn't be a good thing for the life of any of the components.

But then, I'm just an old worry wart...One of my favorite sayings used to be " Genius has limits, but stupidity knows no bounds" :)

TTFN,
Dennis




Offline Bikemad

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Re: Isolation Diodes
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 11:40:36 PM »

Dennis, if you equip both packs with a diode to prevent reverse current flow, how will the regen current reach the batteries? ::)

What if the diodes cause a high voltage build up, resulting in the controller being zapped when the regen is applied at high speed with nowhere for the voltage/current to go? ???

As I said before, I would not bother with the diodes if I was using two batteries in parallel. ;)

Dom, the next time you visit Dennis, make sure you don't let Wanda loose on your bike without checking that both switches are turned on first. ;D

Alan
 

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Questions from a new member
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 12:03:28 AM »
Hello again, Alan

I don't like the varying effect of regen on braking,don't use it, and so I didn't even think about it!  You are absolutely right about the diodes blocking the regen charging current.  DUH! 
So, nevermind........

With your smarts and my good looks, we could make a formidable pair:)   

TTFN,
Dennis


Offline GM Canada

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Re: Parallel batteries
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 12:19:00 AM »

So from my point of view, combining two batteries in parallel will produce a lower discharge rate on both batteries, which will effectively produce more power and allow a higher capacity to be extracted from the batteries, which allows a greater range too.

Alan

As a person with a large tucas, a trailer and a 10 mile climb to work I have most of my ebike experience with multiple batteries and in some cases multiple motors. I definitely agree with Alan's logic here. I have found all of his conclusions here are in line with my real world experiences. Parallel is where it's at!

I am now experimenting on my latest build at switching my two 24v20 batteries in series going to work at 48v20 to running in parallel at 24v40 on the way home. Basically I plan on running parallel most of the time for distance but when needed switching to series for the power. But I'll continue that in my build thread soon.

http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4849.msg28253#msg28253

Gary