Author Topic: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade  (Read 7939 times)

Offline Velocyraptor

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Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« on: February 24, 2011, 11:59:44 AM »
Hello,
It's been a while since I have posted here.
I have returned to the forum because I've had a little problem with the trike I made previously (see my earlier post).
It turns out that there was a short circuit between the black (small) and big blue wire feed from motor (see photo below) with the +36 V lamps (controller output) because the axis of the motor Spent iron sheaths son who came into contact with the fork iron and handlebars on which was fixed before lighting the lamp (the + wire was heated and melted the sheath, but that's all).
Apparently, the controller still functions since all the functions working properly, the front light so even if I had to change the wire, horn, everything! (Beefy controller) Except that the engine will turn over, it hangs and when heated I put gazs but he gets well regenerative breaking when I do not touch the throttle.
I dismantled the motor to see if there was a poor connection inside, but apparently not.
I have however observed that 2 of the 3 transistors (hall sensors) are broken and I think that is why the engine does not sync and it hangs.
I think they have broken due to over-voltage that they have directly taken.
I want to replace them, but the salesman at the electronics store told me that there was not enough information on transistors, so I come here to ask whether you could send them to me.
Transistors details:
41f B21 but it does not seem sufficient to find the right transistor.

My motor is a 36V 500W is the controller is an old regenerative Braking Controller 36V 500W bought in October 2009.

Thank you for your help and I hope to solve this problem without having to buy another motor.

Cordially
Gregory Catto :)

Facebook links removed and photos attached
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 01:51:23 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Hall sensors
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 02:21:26 PM »
Hi Greg,

Those are not transistors, they are Hall Effect Sensors.

Try searching for "Honeywell SS41 hall sensor" which is commonly used as a suitable replacement for the GM item.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 02:00:57 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Cornelius

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 05:28:28 PM »
... and please do not link to Facebook; several here does not have an account there, and I for one will NEVER sign up... ;) (because I won't let other control/own me... :( )

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 08:59:44 AM »
Hi Alan !

So, I will see your link.

I know to publish on facebook is not a good idea , I will look for an image server  host
Thanx you for replies once more time, it's great useful !!!

See you soon

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 09:20:41 AM »
Re Hi :)
I thank you to publish my photos by your own.
The reply you give to me  is great useful, It's better when I know now ;) what is this componment and I just now to order an hall effect sensor SS41 whose manage in 36V.
I know there is other posts about hall sensor effect so I resume my problem is solved the time I install and test the new hall effect sensor SS 41 36V ? if exist.

Great thanks Bikemad.

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 09:26:42 AM »
... and measure current in hall effect wire because it's maybe not 36v

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Hall sensor operating voltage
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 01:46:00 PM »
... and measure current in hall effect wire because it's maybe not 36v

Greg, with the GM motors, the hall sensors operate on just 5 Volts.
They receive this 5V supply from the controller, through the thin red wire.

Alan
 

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 07:51:31 PM »
Hi all!
I've bad news.
So I've receive the all effect sensor and replace by the default sensor of motor and exactely the same problem appear; the motor block, or turn bad if I help it (jerky).
So I don't now if it come from controller or motor.
I Will investigate the table circuit where the sensor are braze (there is a lot of stick :s ) if it isn't burn, but an other day.
Coud you say me how I Do to measure with voltmeter the wires (+ and - colours ?)
It's maybe the controller failed????
 Bye Soon

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Hall sensor and controller testing
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 10:51:15 PM »
Could you say me how I do  to measure with voltmeter the wires (+ and - colours ?)

Greg, I am disappointed to hear that you still have the same problem.  Take a look at this post and this video for more details on testing the operation of the hall sensors.

I would suggest you do the tests at the controller connections, as this could help to confirm if the wires and the hall sensors are working correctly.
If all three hall sensors are working correctly, you will be able to see the readings consistently alternating between 0 and 5V on all three hall sensor contacts as the wheel is rotated very slowly by hand.

If the hall sensors are working correctly, disconnect the three thick phase wires and measure the voltage between each of the phase contacts on the controller and battery - (Black). If my theory is correct, the readings should alternate between 0 and battery voltage when the wheel is turned slowly with the throttle fully open.
Repeat this test again, but this time measure the voltage between each of the phase lead contacts and and battery + (Red). These readings should also alternate between 0 and battery voltage whilst turning the wheel slowly at full throttle.

The results should give a good indication as to whether or not all of the FETs are operating correctly inside the controller.

I look forward to seeing the results of these tests.

Alan
 

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 02:19:20 PM »
Hello.
Test results are as follows.
Hall effect sensors seem to work properly.
I get:
red + black: 4.33 V
yellow + black: 0 to 4.65 V to 0V turning
Black + blue: 0 to 4.68 V to 0 turning
black + green: 0 to 4.70 V to OV etc. ... turning

Then I disconnected the 3 wires from the controller to supply the engine and took the measure to the black wire controller battery (-) with the big yellow, blue, green wires from the joystick controller always locked up, I turn the engine slowly.
The results seem bad but I'll let you interpret them:

controller black wires (-) ---------------- yellow: up to about 1 V or 7V?? not more
                                   ---------------- Blue: up to 35V peak
                                   ----------------- green: up to 35V peak
The voltage increase not like 2,1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 to 35V but like 7V 12V 3V 20V 35V 6V 20V 16V etc....


Then I tested with reverse enabled:

controller black wires (-) ---------------- yellow: up to 20V
                                   ---------------- Blue: Up to 18V (maybe due to the time of response of the multimeter each: 4 seconds)
                                   ----------------- green: up to approximately 1V
(The motor has Always Been slower in reverse)

I point out that if I did not turn the wheel just after having blocked the throttle up, the voltage on the 3 wires to 0V DECREASE automatically and I am forced to manipulate the joystick from maximum to minimum to maximum, to continue action (Is this normal?)


Then I measure these 3 large wires with the Red (+) wires of controller and I get 39.7 V for each connection even if the handle is at a minimum, and I do  not spin the wheel, as if I directly connect the black and red them (+ yrs -)
I do not quite understand the connection of the last test phase: s
Do I reconnect the motor and the controller's wires?

Thanks
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 02:58:06 PM by Velocyraptor »

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2011, 02:24:26 PM »
Re
I want to say than the motor is purring (slight hiss ) and I feel he want to turn but it doesn't when I put gaz. It heated at 3 large motor wires and the intern bobbin motor too

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Test results
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2011, 04:46:27 PM »
I point out that if I did not turn the wheel just after having blocked the throttle up, the voltage on the 3 wires to 0V DECREASE automatically and I am forced to manipulate the joystick from maximum to minimum to maximum, to continue action (Is this normal?)

Greg, I would say it's probably quite normal for the power to cut when the wheel does not move soon after the throttle applied, this would prevent damage to the motor windings, and also stop the controller from being overloaded if the torque required to turn the wheel is too much.

Your hall sensors do seem to be working fine, so it looks as if the controller itself may have been damaged, probably by too much voltage.

I haven't seen inside the regen controller, but I'm guessing it has six FETs (but it could be more) which switch the power to the phase leads inside the controller.

Each of the phase leads is either switched high (battery +) or low (battery -) dependant upon the signal from the hall sensor.
Your first test (and reverse enabled test) on the phase leads would seem to indicate that the "High" switching FETs appear to be working as expected.
What I was hoping to have seen with the last test was a similar result to the first test, proving that the "Low" switching FETs were operating correctly as well.
It may not necessarily mean that the "Low" switching FETs are faulty, as a different result may have been obtained if a resistive load was placed between battery + and the phase output being tested.

Unfortunately Greg, it would appear that your controller has failed, and I'm guessing that it probably won't be feasible to repair it.
A replacement controller is going to be the most straightforward solution.

Alan
 

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 06:31:23 PM »
RE Hi Alan !
http://dl.free.fr/d3zdCz5yF
I ve turned the wheel with the phase autodetection switch (purple and black) but it's seem it make a lot a vibration and noise.
It seem it's the controller fail but I'm not sure it's not the hub motor. I ve launch the motor by hand then the controler make the other
What do you think ?
I've make e video here http://dl.free.fr/d3zdCz5yF
maybe you confirm it come from controller to change ? (it has an exessive current protection ?)

Bye

ps: I have order a new cruise controler,i will see.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 01:10:06 PM by Velocyraptor »

Offline Velocyraptor

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Re: Desynchronization and short circuit and motor blockade
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 05:35:11 PM »
It was the controller, iit's ok now Thanks Golden motor forum !!