Author Topic: Controller output values ?  (Read 8143 times)

Offline TheKing

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Controller output values ?
« on: January 29, 2020, 08:25:37 AM »
I want to make conversion vehicle on Daewoo Matiz with BLDC 10KW Motor , Controller VAC 500, GM throtlle ...
I can't start to spin motor, I don't know why, conection is OK ....
When I connect all (similar like picture), controller blink 14 times and sometimes 5 times

I check the hall sensor conection from motor (with disconnected controller) and
gave me abnormal voltage (when I input 5v and spin motor output is between 0 -1.5V)
My plan is to open Motor and change sensors (if it posibile)

Other thing, those somebody know if I put 48 V on input on controller
what should expect output on hall sensor (S2), on tkrotlle (S3) or anywhere (U,V,W and B-)
If I know fabric value I'll easy compare ...
Repeat, not connected BLDC Motor , only 48 V connect controller ....
Regards,
image.png
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 08:38:17 AM by TheKing »

Offline TheKing

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 07:20:12 AM »
I expected that at least someone would write from Golden Motor to help with advice and knowledge for people who have problems with something they bought from GM, because on the other hand, the meaning of the forum is lost if there is no discussion of the problems we have when buying GM articles ....

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2020, 12:21:22 PM »
I expected that at least someone would write from Golden Motor to help with advice and knowledge for people who have problems with something they bought from GM, because on the other hand, the meaning of the forum is lost if there is no discussion of the problems we have when buying GM articles ....

If you examine what I said in the last message that I sent to you:

The reading on each of the Yellow, Green and Blue Hall sensor wires (relative to the Black ground wire) should alternate between ~0V and 3.25~5V (every 45 degrees of rotation) as the motor is turned slowly by hand.

Answer ... I do that and voltage is between 0 - 1.5V when I spin motor (5V on red and black)

Does it noticeably switch between 0V and 1.5V etc. every 45 degrees of rotation?

1.5V seems to be a bit too low, I would expect to see at least 3.0V when the Hall sensor is switched high, and 0V when it is switched low.
If this is the same on both sets of Hall sensors, I would double check the accuracy of your voltmeter using some AA cells in series to see if the voltage reading is within the expected range (1 cell=~1.5V, 2 cells=~3.0V, 3 cells =~4.5V etc.).

I check disconnected  throttle  ... connect on 5v and measure output ... throttle work and I get analog output between 0-4.95V on green and black

I suggest you check the throttle voltage on the green throttle wire when it is plugged into the controller and see if the readings are the same.

Please note: The controller usually expects a throttle signal voltage of ~1V when the throttle is released. 0V is probably going to cause problems if you have the Throttle voltage range protection enabled.

What throttle are you using?

Measure on throttle connection
GND and Green =    - 4.18 V
GND and Red =         0.88 V

Measure on throttle connection with disconnected  hall connection
GND and Green =      0 V
GND and Red =         5.18 V

Something is definitely wrong here, as I don't see how you could have a negative voltage (-4.18V) in relation to ground.

Try measuring this again with your black meter probe on the battery - connection and see what readings you have on the Red, Green and Black throttle wires, as it looks like you may have a faulty throttle ground connection.

I measure output  voltage value on hall connector from controller ...
with disconnected hall sensor and throttle
with connected voltage, e-lock and result is:

Between red and black =9.42V
Between blue and black =2.8V
Between green and black =2.8V
Between yellow and black =2.8V

9.42V does seem a bit too high for a "+5V supply", but another forum member with a VEC200 controller was initially concerned about a reading of 10V on the +5V Hall sensor supply, but as far as I am aware, his motor and controller are still working fine.  ;)

The 2.8V on the Yellow, Green and Blue wires is probably normal, they should pull down to 0V when the Hall sensors are switched low.  :)

Unfortunately, I have no first hand experience with this particular controller, whereas others on the forum probably have, therefore I suggest that you start a new thread on the forum (with the full details of your problem) so that other forum members can hopefully provide assistance and/or advice.

Regards,

Alan

You will notice that I suggested that you posted on the forum so that other forum members could hopefully provide assistance and/or advice, as we rarely get replies from GM China on this forum.

If you want to involve GM China, you can try emailing them (sales@goldenmotor.com) and see if they respond.
However, if you purchased your motor and controller from another GM dealer, it might be worth contacting them instead to see if they can help.

Incidentally, I spend a great deal of my own spare time trying to help individual forum members who contact me via PM when they experience problems (or just want advice), but I would much prefer to reply to posts on the forum so that others who have experienced similar problems can either offer advice, or benefit from the advice given by those who reply to the original post.

The more people you have trying to solve a specific problem, the quicker it will usually be solved.

Alan
 

Offline Tommycat

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2020, 03:15:08 PM »
Hi TheKing,

From your OP it's sounds like your testing the motor's hall sensors disconnected from the controller. (bench test)
As the controller provides a pull-up resistance for operation, I'm double checking to see if you are adding this resistance whilst doing this in your testing.
For more precise instructions on how to do this, see this thread...

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/knowledge-base/general-aa/39891-hall-sensor-testing-without-using-a-motor-controller

If they check out OK, I'd encourage you to double check the motor's hall sensor connector pins and connections/wiring.

From your bench tested throttle voltage output values, I would say your using a potentiometer type throttle. (NOT what is shown in the picture) This would require that the controller parameter for throttle type be set to potentiometer. And perhaps protections disabled or setpoints adjusted. But if is truly a hall sensor type, it indeed has serious issues. See this thread for checking out a hall sensor throttle and the differences between the two types...

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification
Note: maximum input voltage on a typical hall sensor throttle is 8vdc.



Regards,
T.C.
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.

Offline TheKing

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2020, 10:57:55 PM »
For Bikemad
Case 1       I repeat measure more slowly and get same values , from 0 - 1.5V. I know its not ok but .... what can I do ... only to open mootor and check hall sensor .... probably  will find on internet how can can check
Next days I will do that with battery (now with mobile charger 5V) but not expect too much ...

Case 2     I have weird values from controller to throtlle and hall sensor ? .... and somebody can tell me what fabric values may I expect on output from controller .... mean that is key for solution
Mean throtlle is good ... connect 5 v ... get approximately from  0 to 5 v on output ....

I try to involve some people from China  but till now without solution .... I still hope will be everything ok .... thanks for advice and I'll write soon ....
Regards,

Offline TheKing

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2020, 11:32:01 PM »
For info ... Throtlle  from Golden Motor China

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2020, 01:01:46 AM »
Re. Case 1:
Check the Hall sensor voltages while they are plugged into the controller rather than a separate 5V power supply.
If you cannot access the metal pins of the connector when connected you may have to use a steel needle or pin to pierce the insulation of the wires to check the voltages.
I suspect they will then switch between 0 and 2.8V, which  is probably sufficient to allow the controller to operate correctly even though it is still slightly lower than I would have expected.

I have just tested a similar Hall sensor on a 5V supply and the maximum signal voltage output was only ~3V without a pull up resistor in the circuit, and that was with a neodymium magnet physically touching against the side of the Hall sensor.
Out of curiosity, I increased the supply voltage right up to 10V to see if it affected the signal voltage output, but it stayed exactly the same (~3V max.)

I am not convinced that the Hall sensors are faulty.  If they are regularly switching high and low 4 times per revolution of the motor (even if it is just 0V, 1.5V, 0V, 1.5V, 0V, 1.5V, 0V, 1.5V when not connected to the controller) I would say that they are probably working correctly.

However, if the voltage of any Hall sensor does not switch high and low, this could indicate a faulty Hall sensor, but the chances of two different sets of Hall sensors both having one or more [/i]faulty sensors on a new motor is highly unlikely.

Re. Case 2:
Quote from: Bikemad
Measure on throttle connection
GND and Green =    - 4.18 V
GND and Red =         0.88 V

Measure on throttle connection with disconnected  hall connection
GND and Green =      0 V
GND and Red =         5.18 V

Something is definitely wrong here, as I don't see how you could have a negative voltage (-4.18V) in relation to ground.

Try measuring this again with your black meter probe on the battery - connection and see what readings you have on the Red, Green and Black throttle wires, as it looks like you may have a faulty throttle ground connection.

I would expect to see 0V between battery - and both the the black throttle wire and the black Hall sensor wire.

I would concentrate your efforts on finding out why the voltage readings are so different on the throttle wires when the Hall sensors are plugged in, as I would not expect the Hall sensors being connected or disconnected to noticeably affect the throttle voltages.  ;)

If the voltages are rechecked with everything connected correctly and they are still as above (GND and Green = -4.18V and GND and Red = 0.88V) then I would suspect a problem with either the wiring connections between the throttle and the controller, or the controller itself.

You need to eliminate the obvious things first, and that negative voltage reading on the throttle signal wire does not seem right to me.

Alan

Offline TheKing

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2020, 08:30:20 AM »
Need time to check  .... its logical that you say
Thanks

Offline Tommycat

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2020, 02:46:02 PM »
I would be suspicious of a shorting motor hall sensor supply in the motors hall sensor wiring. 9.42vdc on red and black unplugged. ???vdc when plugged in.
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.

Offline TheKing

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2020, 02:23:15 PM »
Excuse me for being so late, I had to go on a trip ... today I again made measurements in more cases without a controller connected:
Case 1: I repeated the case at 5 volts but the output was 0 - 1.5 v
Case 2: With 3 AA batteries = 4.5 v ... also output from 0 - 1.5 v
Case 3: With a 7.5 k resistor connected to the u, v, w wires and +5 volts source .... and result as from the books ... the reading ranges from 0 to approximately 5 volts every 45 degrees.( 0 5 0 5 0 ..... )

Now i'm happy .... I know (I hope) that it means the motor is OK  .... thank you both for your unselfish help ....
Now in the next few days, I need to find a 48 volt power source to see how much voltage and resistance the controller outputs because I'm already sure the problem is in the controller .... and I hope you will be close with your advice ...
Regards,

Offline TheKing

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Controller output values ?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2020, 12:29:16 PM »
Just inform you guys (Bikemad,Tommycat) ,  I have some wear output values from controller and officialy ask golden motor if can to give regular values , which should be for controller who is in good working condition to make comparation .
Their opinion is that the controller is not repairing and that I should buy a new one.
I also told them that the controller is just a tested, it's almost new. They do not want to go into the details of the problem, but they immediately tell you to buy a new one which is so unprofessional and irresponsible. (same was with throtlle)

I wanted to ask you if you have any experience anyone has a repaired controller ..... you know, an electrician ... because I think there are transistors, capacitors and resistors inside and those parts are replaceable. Thanks in advance

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2020, 03:37:53 PM »
Thanks for the update.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone with the electrical expertise to repair a failed VEC-500 controller, but it might be worth asking on the Endless-Sphere forum.

Alan
 


Offline Tommycat

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Re: Controller output values ?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »
Thanks for the update.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone with the electrical expertise to repair a failed VEC-500 controller, but it might be worth asking on the Endless-Sphere forum.

Alan

Same with me...

Were you able to determine WHY you lost throttle 5vdc input power when connecting your motors hall connection? Or did you find other definitive proof that the controller is bad?
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.

Offline TheKing

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Controller output values ?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 07:40:06 AM »
I found no evidence that the controller was faulty, only that it had illogical values ..... the controller was declared faulty by Golden Motor engineers immediately, without exploring other possibilities ...
I'm planning to hire an expert to open it and see if there is any damage to the contacts from moisture or corrosion becouse the controller has not been used last 3-4 years (only 10-15 minutes worked )
I'm disappointed with GM, they don't do their best to help us customers ...
When I have news, I'll report ...
Greeting,