Black Pie 5 Vector - Throttle/controller issue...

[RayH]

I got a black pie 5 Vector, Throttle lights up, battery (48v) fully charged ~54.6v but wheel wont turn when throttle pushed.
I've got 5 rides and less then maybe 15 miles on the wheel, no falls, no drops and no jumps.

The problem started when I was test riding it after installing the brake levers and after maybe a mile or less I pulled the brakes and the regen brakes kicked in and then suddenly stopped that's when the throttle no longer worked. I had used the brakes before and felt the regen braking and it still worked I think what the difference is I had held the brakes possibly longer to slow down more then just a little. I had test rode the bike 2 other times before installing the brake levers and it worked with no problems, up hills, down hills  it ran like it should.

I contacted Golden Motors they where nice enough to send another controller after some basic testing like pulling the controller out and counting the LED blinks, on the first controller the led didn't light up at all.
I got the 2nd controller yesterday and after installing and testing the wheel today it finally worked again, on the first ride maybe a mile I went to brake and turn around so I pulled the brakes and regen brakes kicked in and then suddenly stopped again and no response from throttle... I havent taken off the second controller to test if the LED lights up or not but im assuming its the same as the first...

Sorry for the long post, just want to be thorough so I can get my GoldenMotors-BlackPie5 e-Bike working again as soon as possible.
I don't own the Bluetooth dongle, or a screen, or a USB cable. I had plans on purchasing a USB cable and Screen but the ebike no longer works so I held off on getting them.

I was advised to write on the forum so here I am.
I do own 2 other cheap ebay electric wheels the battery works on my other 48v ebike so its not the battery or the BMS.

Thanks
Ray H.

[Bikemad]

Hi Ray andto the forum.

What size wheels do you have, and how fast were you travelling when you braked to turn around?

I do own 2 other cheap ebay electric wheels the battery works on my other 48v ebike so its not the battery or the BMS.

What battery do you have, and is it a Golden Motor battery?

If it is not a GM battery, what are its maximum charge and continuous discharge current ratings?

I am wondering whether the battery's BMS may be abruptly disconnecting the battery (electronically) from the controller during high regen current at high rpm, resulting in a big voltage spike within the controller that the battery is no longer able to absorb, which could explain the failure. 

If your other bikes produce a similar level of regen current and voltage, then perhaps their controllers are just a bit more tolerant of voltage spikes than the Magic Pie's controller? Although, I would expect the Magic Pie to produce a higher voltage at the same rpm (compared to your other motors)which, because of its much larger diameter, is likely to have more magnets moving much faster past a higher number of stator coils.

It seems too coincidental for two different controllers to fail quite so quickly in very similar circumstances, therefore I think it is more likely that something other than the controller that is responsible for the failure in this instance.

It might be the battery's BMS, or it could even be a poor (intermittent) physical or soldered connection somewhere on the battery supply, including the main power switch contacts, (assuming one is fitted) that is failing (momentarily going open circuit) while high current is being passed through it.

Alan
 

[RayH]

29 Inch wheel, speed umm maybe 20mph.
It's not a GM Battery, I'm not sure of exact specs on my battery at this moment but I've wondered about that being a possibility, but the only way to disable the Regen braking is unplugging the brakes, which also disables the motor cut off safety feature.
My other hub motors don't have Regen braking at all there the cheap $160 26inch hub motors.

If that's the cause how can I fix this issue?!? and Is there a way to disable Regen braking and keep the
motor cut off safety feature in the future?

Oh and thank you for the super fast response.

UPDATE:  Brand: SUN-EBIKE Battery (18650)
Battery capacity: 20AH
Charging cut-off voltage: 54.6V
Discharge cut-off voltage:38V
Nominal discharge current: >=30A
Instantaneous maximum discharge current: ?45A
Rated charging current: 3A
Maximum charge current: >10A

[Tommycat]

Hi Ray,

What's your status now? Throttle LEDs on, but no action twisting the throttle? Have you tried it with the brake cables disconnected? Or how about with the battery at say 52 volts or less...?

The regeneration feature can be disabled thru controller programming which will require the purchase of a programming cable. It leaves the motor cut-off function intact.

Your battery seems robust enough to me, Although I could argue about the greater-than symbols...     And the speed and actuation don't seem severe enough that it couldn't handle...   

Also a reminder to secure the unused dead ended wires in the upper and lower harnesses. Just a few thoughts.


Regards,
T.C.

[RayH]

Thanks for the Response anything helpful or anything at all is much appreciated.

STATUS: STILL THE SAME... $$$ Paper weight  with 3 LEDS

I did try disconnecting the brakes. as for the unused dead ended wires I taped and hot glued them at different lengths, the original (hot glue?) was coming off.
I'll have to try a slightly discharged battery.
I'll also purchase a USB programming cable, and find out if I can read anything from the controller. crossing fingers here!

Thanks for pointing this out, just realized those are greater then and not LESS THEN, Opps. LOL

Try this again, when I copied and pasted and they turned into (?) and I wasn't paying attention and put (>)
Brand: SUN-EBIKE Battery (18650 cells)
Battery capacity: 20AH
Charging cut-off voltage: 54.6V
Discharge cut-off voltage: 38V
Nominal discharge current: <=30A
Instantaneous maximum discharge current: <45A
Rated charging current: 3A
Maximum charge current: <10A

[Tommycat]

After you try a discharged battery, I think I'd check to see if you have the 5 volt regulated power for the electronics next...  Use this pin-out map to locate and test...

[Bikemad]

Rated charging current: 3A
Maximum charge current: <10A

These figures may have something to do with it.
My 26" MP4 produced over 26 Amps of regen current at ~20mph:

I also did some testing using a pair of wattmeters to measure the regen current and here are the result:

Maximum wattage was 892.8W under power and 567.4W generated during regen @ 21.87mph with ~31V battery voltage.
Maximum current was 29.98A under power and 17.92A produced during regen.

I tried the same test later when the battery voltage had dropped and the regen result was much higher:

Maximum wattage was 798.2W under power and 805.2W generated during regen @ 20.00mph with ~30V battery voltage.
Maximum current was 27.46A under power and 26.12A produced during regen (shown on the lower wattmeter):

If the BMS is suddenly disconnecting the battery because the current is too high, the voltage spike could cause the controller to fail.

The current was probably higher because I was using a much lower voltage battery, therefore I would guestimate at least 16 Amps would still be produced with a 48V battery at the same speed (805 Watts divided by 48 Volts = 16.77 Amps).

Is there a way to disable Regen braking and keep the motor cut off safety feature in the future?

If the software option to disable regen actually works then it should be very simple to do. But if you are unable to completely deactivate the regen via the programming software, it should also be possible to alter the existing wiring (with the addition of a 330 Ohm resistor and a couple of diodes) to provide the same safety cutoff feature, but without activating the regen, as shown here:



Unfortunately, this would not be very straightforward to implement as it would involve cutting into the main control harness to access and identify the three wires you would need to modify (Cruise Signal, Brake Signal and Throttle Signal).

However, if a pair of GM compatible 10 pin connectors can be sourced, it should be possible to make an in-line adapter that could simply plug in between the motor harness and the main control harness. 

Alan
 
EDIT: Updated circuit diagram added

[RayH]

Checked the +5v line and nothing...

haven't had enough time to drain my battery yet, been raining here on and off that and work.

[Bikemad]

If you don't have a +5V output from the controller (with the main control harness disconnected) I am pretty sure that the controller has failed. 
However, if you checked the +5V at the Black and Red pedelec wires with the control harness, brake levers and throttle all connected, then I suggest that you check it again with the control harness unplugged to make sure that there is not a short on the +5V supply somewhere within the harness, throttle, or brake levers!

If it is just the 5V regulator within the controller that has failed, you may be able to make the controller work by placing an external 5V supply across the Black and Red pedelec wires (3 x AA cells in series, or an old 5V phone charger, should work for test purposes).

If the controller still does not run with an external 5V supply, it is probably time to give up trying to revive that controller.

If it does run with an external 5V supply, you can get a cheap 60V to 5V dc:dc converter and power it from your main battery via the lighting switch on the throttle. 

I don't think there is any point in draining the battery, if the controller was still working, it should run on a fully charged pack, just like it did to start with. 

If your existing controller cannot be brought back to life, then a replacement controller (and disabling the regen) will hopefully get you back on the road again.



Alan
 

[Tommycat]

I'd probably pull the controller. Do your light check. And at the controller check for battery power on VB+ and VB-. And 5vdc at VSP5V to battery ground. With everything but the battery disconnected... last ditch effort. If no 5vdc, cut the white wire going to the terminal and re-test at the terminal after allowing time to reset    ... last, last ditch effort. 




Oh, and the programming regen disable works in the software as I tried it before posting...   But I'm still concerned as to what damaged your 2 controllers.

[RayH]

Thank you guys for all the help, your awesome! 

I went ahead and just purchased a new controller.
I have a USB programming cable.

Maybe I didnt see one, but are there any graphs or data on how much regen braking can produce, for now im going to play it safe and just disable it I don't think My battery's BMS can handle the high amps, I havent opened the pack and checked the battery's and what there capable of, I could just swap out the BMS for a better one depending on the cells.
I liked the idea of having a little extra braking power and putting power back into the battery.

[Tommycat]

But I'm still concerned as to what damaged your 2 controllers.

What ever is taking out the 5 volt regulator...?   

Couple older quotes from GM.

The MagicPie/SmartPie controller check regen braking voltage every milisecond, if the voltage exceeds 60V, it will switch off regen braking feature automatically to protect controller from damage.  So it is safe whether you install the battery or battery is full.

Recommended maximum downhill and coasting speed is not exceed 150% rated ebike speed. For example, rated ebike (motor) speed is 40km/h, then maximum downhill speed should not exceed 60km/h. Otherwise, the regen braking voltage may go higher than 80Vdc which can damage the MOSFETs inside controller. That is out of control.

I too like the slow down effect of regeneration. Had to turn mine down to 35% as settings higher were too aggressive. It's a somewhat a moving target as it seems to depend a bit on battery charge, and your speed. Totally off under 6 MPH for instance.

[RayH]

Alright finally got everything hooked back up and disabled Regen breaking, went for the first ride on new controller and IT WAS GREAT!
Works like a charm!

I'll just have to get or build a battery that can handle more current in the future before I even think about turning regen back on.

Im currently building 2 18650 battery cells for my other bikes to replace horrible SLA batterys...