Recommended setup for long term traveling with fairly heavy trailer

[Scrivenerfinecrafts]

Hello, I hope I am following the instructions properly on creating a new post via a reply

I am planning on attempting something I believe to be fairly unique, I intended to travel the United States, and possibly neighboring countries, on a KMX Cobra recumbent trike, which isn’t unusual. What makes it unusual is that I plan to take part of my woodworking business with me, specifically pen and lichtenberg figure making. I plan on camping most of the time, as well as doing a little backpacking.
I thought I had it all figured out, and have just ordered my trike, but as I was doing some last minute double checking before ordering a motor, I suddenly found that what I knew was but a tidal pool next to the ocean of information.
I plan to start traveling in May, which means I’m running a little short of time I can spend going down rabbit holes. So I figured, why not ask the people that know best for their thoughts?

The nitty gritty is this:
I estimate a weight of about 500 pounds (225 KG) with myself and the trailer combined. The trailer I currently have envisioned will be four wheeled so as not to overload the axle on the motor wheel. I intend to mostly use the electric motor for pedal assist during the beginning of my trip and on longer days, as well as use the motor to completely powering the trike on days I feel unwell.
I plan to ultimately average 50-100 miles (80-160 Km) a day with break days fairly regularly to make more pens and to sell them.
I have no interest in high speeds but I want range, I plan to enjoy the scenery as I travel, however I will need plenty of torque, which I'll take over extreme range, as I do not look forward to pedaling up the Rocky Mountains wholly on my own power, and it’d be nice to get some regen from a motor going down the other side.

So my question is this, with the provided information, what all is recommended, in relationship to the motor, to get me started, a motor kit, battery, and what else?
I do have some financial restrictions, but I’m hopeful that I can afford what I need. I can skip extra features I don’t need, and I’ve got a whole bucket full of skills that can help me, electronics, metalworking, woodworking, designing, etc.

A preemptive THANK YOU! for helping me out
 

[Bikemad]

Hi David andto the forum.

An all up weight of 500 lbs will certainly need a lot of torque on steep inclines, even with a 24" drive wheel.

I would therefore suggest a 20" cast Magic Pie for improved torque:



Fitted with a 2½-16  motorcycle tyre like the middle tyre shown here:



This would produce a larger overall diameter than a standard 20" bike tyre, but smaller overall diameter than the standard KMX 24" rear tyre. This slight reduction in diameter would provide a lower gearing effect for both pedal and motor power to ease hill climbing, and the cast wheel combined with a motorcycle tyre should be a lot more robust!

I personally would choose a single or twin wheel trailer in preference to a four wheel trailer, as this avoids complicated steering and suspension mechanisms (and should roll easier on uneven surfaces), and it should also help to keep the weight of the trailer down.





The additional nose weight acting upon the trike's rear wheel is a good thing, as it would help to prevent the wheel from locking under heavy braking.
Much safer to have more weight on the driven/braked wheel and less in the trailer than the other way around.

Are you going to be able to recharge the batteries while you are making pens, or are you expecting 100 mile range from a single charge?

I don't have any practical experience of hauling heavy loads around, hopefully Gary (GM Canada) will be able to give you some idea of what battery capacity you might actually need, but bigger batteries inevitably means more weight (and more expense).


If you hadn't already ordered your trike (and also had plenty of time for a "ground up" custom build) this might be another practical alternative, and it only uses three wheels in total:



Hopefully this will have given you something to think about.

Alan
 

[Scrivenerfinecrafts]

Wow, Thank you Alan!

That is a lot to think about.
I plan on recharging fairly regularly, I expect I'll spend many nights at a KOA, when I charge I hope to be able to do a bit of turning as well, two birds with one stone
I know I cannot afford the amount of batteries I would need to get 100 miles from a single charge, so I plan on traveling mostly under my own power, but I want the motor so I can still make stuff at the end of the day.
 
I had originally planed on building my trike from the ground up, I even bought a welder, well, I bought it for a job that then paid for the welder. However, I got distracted with the really cool, but very intense, job, and didn't watch the calendar closely enough. I was even going to build my own battery packs, but I know from experience how long it will take to get stuff from China.

In regards to braking, that is a very large concern of mine, I believe I have figured a way of rigging brakes on the trailer, with a dual pull lever, I should have the trailer built in the next couple of weeks and I'll be able to test it vigorously before my trip. with a more solid rear wheel (and forks) I believe I will do a quick redesign of my trailer to be two wheeled, I prefer the handling of two wheels better than four anywhat.

I am curious, can I use that motor in a pedal assist mode? the listing doesn't mention that, and I assume I would probably need a Cycle Analyst and a torque sensor? I can figure out batteries, though I'd love to get peoples opinions, what I am a little stumped on is which voltage I should use, will I get more range from a similar Amp Hour rated batter in 24V vs 48V? can I get more torque out of one or the other, or does it balance out and really only come down to speed?

I am having some  difficulty locating a 2½-16  motorcycle tyre online, could you provide some more details? is it a 16" diameter tire? I seem to be finding those, haha, I suppose my ignorance is showing.

Again thank you Alan!

[Bikemad]

I am curious, can I use that motor in a pedal assist mode? the listing doesn't mention that, and I assume I would probably need a Cycle Analyst and a torque sensor?

The pedelec option on the Magic Pie uses a very basic Pedelec sensor to read the pedal rpm (cadence), and there is even a Smart display unit (BAC-601) that allows you to select different levels of assistance, but the Cycle Analyst combined with a THUN torque sensor would provide a much better pedelec experience.

I can figure out batteries, though I'd love to get people's opinions, what I am a little stumped on is which voltage I should use, will I get more range from a similar Amp Hour rated battery in 24V vs 48V? can I get more torque out of one or the other, or does it balance out and really only come down to speed?

A 48V 10Ah battery has twice the energy of a 24V 10Ah battery (480Wh compared to 240Wh) therefore is should theoretically have twice the range when travelling at the same speed.

The maximum torque is usually related to the current, and maximum speed is governed by voltage, but as a higher voltage battery delivers more power (Volts x Amps) at the same current, a 48V battery will produce more torque at higher rpm than a 24V battery.

I am having some  difficulty locating a 2½-16  motorcycle tyre online, could you provide some more details? is it a 16" diameter tire? I seem to be finding those, haha, I suppose my ignorance is showing.

It is a 16" diameter tyre, but motorcyle tyres are measured using the internal (rim) diameter, not the external (overall) diameter.
I have had a quick look on eBay and found these (click pictures for more info):





A 70/90-16 is equivalent to a 2.50-16 tyre:





All of these should (hopefully) fit nicely on the 20" cast Magic Pie.



Now you have even more to think about. 

Alan
 

[Scrivenerfinecrafts]

I've watched a number of videos, read articles I could find on things I was unclear on, I believe I know what I intend to do.

-20" Magic Pie 5 (Vector) 20" rear conversion, it appears as though it'll be able to handle the 8 sprockets on my trike.
- 8 speed free wheel, I haven't researched yet what exactly I'll need, but I'm confidant on finding that.
a 36V 12AH LiFePo4 battery, with charger, and plans on adding another battery by the time I hit the Rockies, by then I should know how the sales of pens are going.
-Thun sensor, after watching videos I realized where it went and also that I currently cannot seem to find the specs of which one I need, when my trike comes in Monday I'll be able to measure the crank, I think the measurements are what I need.
A 16" moped tire, I haven't settled on one yet, but like the free wheel I'm not too concerned about finding what I need, especially with all the recommendations given me
-cycle Analyst v2.3 with shunt, for some reason the .ca and .bike websites seem to list a different version for what appears to be the same listing, I'll be contacting Gary before I place my order just to make sure of everything.

I am currently left with two questions
first, am I correct in my assumption that the cycle analyst will usurp the need for a smart display unit?
and, from the videos and pictures it looks like the KMX Cobra has some really robust rear forks, do I need torque arms on it? and if so will merely welding a piece of square tube to the top of the fork arms provide all the support I need?

[Bikemad]

With the exception of the PAS mode display (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) the Cycle Analyst should display all of the information that the BAC-601 Smart Display does, plus a lot more.

Torque arms are used to prevent the axle from spinning within the dropouts, not to prevent the forks from bending.
Check out Justin's excellent article on torque arms for further information.

The high carbon steel box section rear forks on the KMX are more than capable of coping with the torque, but I am not sure about the dropouts:



Looking at the above photo, the dropouts only have a very shallow slot, which is unlikely to be able to withstand the axle torque on its own.
The angled cutaway section at the front of the slot would increase the chance of the axle spinning out under load  , so I would strongly recommend that a pair of torque arms should be fitted.

Check out Ypedal's write up on his KMX Cobra assembly for more useful information.

Regarding the "8 sprockets", the Magic Pie only accepts the older style thread on freewheel (not the newer style splined cassettes) and I would recommend a DNP Epoch 11-34T 8 speed freewheel instead of the 11-32T as it will reduce your lowest gear by almost another 6% without reducing your highest gear (provided the derailleur can accommodate the slightly larger diameter 34T sprocket.) 

With a 42T chainwheel and an 11T freewheel you would have to pedal at ~90 rpm to achieve 20mph (33km/h) with a standard 20" tyre. The same cadence in the lowest gear (22T:34T) would achieve 3.5mph (5.5km/h).
To maintain a steady speed of 15mph (24km/h) would require a cadence of ~66 rpm.

Alan