Author Topic: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim  (Read 19129 times)

Offline Velonaut

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« on: September 15, 2010, 08:03:00 PM »
I ordered a 26 inch 500W-36V rear wheel, however due to production/shipping problems the order will be delivered 3 weeks late. This is too late for my project. The dealer offers a MagicPie and a 26 inch  rim which they have on stock, but they have no spokes and no capacity to install the spokes. I decide to do it my selve but need to know the size (length and thickness) for the spokes. Can anybody tell me the size of the spokes which are standard on a 26 inch wheel for the Magic Pie ?

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:30:34 PM by Velonaut »

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Early or later hub?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 01:01:30 AM »
You will need to find out if it is the early or later type of Magic Pie, as the spoke lengths are different!

On the early Magic Pies, the spokes crossed over each other as in this wheel:


The later version of the Pie has spokes which do not cross over:

(The Later 26" wheels are spoked using the same pattern as the above 24" wheel).

If it's a standard GM rim, Gary (GM Canada) might be able to tell you what size spokes you require, provided you can tell him if they are for an early or later hub:

GarySalo@GoldenMotor.CA

Alan
 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 08:25:42 PM by Bikemad »

Offline GM Canada

  • Super Gary
  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,544
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 02:30:18 AM »
If its an original Pie the spokes are 128 mm from the inside of the elbow to the end of the spoke and they are 3mm thick. If its the later style I would have to measure and its late. If no one replies by morning I will measure one for you.

Gary

Offline Velonaut

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 06:15:27 AM »
Thanks. Would appreciate a lot if you take measurements. I will ask the Dutch dealer for type of MP.
Regards, Theodore

Offline Velonaut

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 08:57:27 PM »
I got a used (defect) MPwheel in addition to my new MP motor. So I could use the old spokes. I discovered that the motor is not centered on the shaft to get space for the sprocket wheels. I had to spoke the rim to the maximum "out of the center" of the motor in order to prevent he tyre to wear against the fender.

Offline GM Canada

  • Super Gary
  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,544
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2010, 03:18:47 AM »
On the new spoke design, the 26 inch wheel has 110mm spokes measured from the inside of the elbow to the end of the spoke.

Gary


Offline Velonaut

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2010, 04:24:54 AM »
Thanks Gary.
Always good to know when one has to change a spoke.
On the 26in wheel:
128mm long, 3mm thick for the old design
110mm long, 2.5 mm thick for the new design (corrected)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:39:28 AM by Velonaut »

Offline GM Canada

  • Super Gary
  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,544
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 04:34:07 AM »
Thanks Gary.
Always good to know when one has to change a spoke.
On the 26in wheel:
128mm long, 3mm thick for the old design
110mm long, 3 mm thick for the new design.

110mm long, 2.5 mm thick for the new design.

Also I'm not even sure im measuring them from the right spot. If you do use these measurments make sure you specify it is from the inside of the elbow to the tip.

Gary


« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:35:55 AM by GM Canada »

Offline StadsImker

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
    • City Apiary in The Netherlands "Stads Imkerij"
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 01:58:03 PM »
In my opinion the spokes of the "new" MP5 are too thin... I wish.. I could buy thicker 3mm spokes.

With my tricycle transport bike, I break spokes almost daily.  :o Today I received 37 new spokes, but they don't last too long. I brake them. Also often nipples fall into the rim. Because the aluminum rim flexes too much. Golden Motor could make a steel rim optional. For tricycles... :D

Of course I know it's because my MP5 wheel always stands straight on the road and gets a lot of force when road is not 100% flat and of course in corners and road bends. But I think that many more tricycles more or less problems have with spokes and rim provided by GM.

Now I am looking for a spoke tread rolling machine. Hope to find someone who has a Cyclo or Hozan spoke tread roller. Ofcourse with the correct size roller... Otherwise I have to buy one, but they are quite expensive.

Greetings,
Philip
Love to ride my 60 year old Dutch Transport Bike, with MP5 and 24 volt 30 A LiFePO4 Headway battery-pack. Dec 2016 upgraded with two solar panels mono of 190 WP each and an extra 24V-30A (40152 8S2P) to get 48volts for the Magic Pie 5.

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 05:16:28 PM »
In my opinion the spokes of the "new" MP5 are too thin... I wish.. I could buy thicker 3mm spokes.

This is where our opinions vary, as in my opinion, the spokes of the "new" MP5 are still too thick for conventional bike use.
I would much rather have standard 14g 2mm thick spokes on my wheels, but the holes in the flanges are too large to allow them to be used, so the only valid alternative is to used butted spokes:



Philip, what diameter spokes were fitted to the original rear wheel (and front wheels), and did/do those regularly break too?

Thinner spokes will often enable a greater amount of road shock forces (bumps and pot holes etc.) to be absorbed by the "more elastic" tensile properties of the thinner spokes.

If the spokes are too thick, the stretch available within the spoke is greatly reduced, and this can produce a very hard and unforgiving ride on a "hardtail" bike or trike.

Today I received 37 new spokes, but they don't last too long. I brake them. Also often nipples fall into the rim. Because the aluminum rim flexes too much. Golden Motor could make a steel rim optional. For tricycles... :D

Of course I know it's because my MP5 wheel always stands straight on the road and gets a lot of force when road is not 100% flat and of course in corners and road bends.

I fully appreciate that your particular trike places a lot more load on the wheels than most conventional bikes:
Quote from: StadsImker
But my bike is extremely heavy... It weighs with me..... empty 330 KG. The cargo can weigh as much as 350 kilogram!

Although 680kg is a tremendous amount of weight, the majority of this weight will typically be placed directly over the front axle (and front wheels), not the rear wheel. I would expect less weight to be acting upon your rear wheel than is usually acting upon the rear wheel of most heavy duty adult tandems.

If you place a set of bathroom scales under the rear wheel and then sit on the trike, you will be able to see exactly how much load the rear wheel has to withstand, and I would expect the standard Magic Pie spokes to be able to cope with this load if they are correctly fitted and sufficiently tensioned;)

If your spokes are breaking at the elbow:

Cracks like the ones visible in the above photo are typically caused by metal fatigue, as the elbows will constantly flex with each revolution of the wheel, basically caused by a lack of support between the inner elbow radius and the rounded/countersunk edge of the flange holes:


I strongly recommend that you consider refitting the spokes on the outside of the hub flanges so that all their heads are on the inside as shown here:



This enables the spoke "elbows" to be better supported against the flanges, thereby reducing the likelihood of spoke failure due to fatigue, and it will also allow the wheel to be able to withstand higher lateral forces, which are typically much greater on a non-leaning trikes like yours. ;)

Spoke nipples should not undo themselves and start rolling around inside the rim if the spokes are initially tightened sufficiently, and are also correctly re-tightened as necessary as the new spokes settle in, inevitably reducing their initial tension.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:51:53 PM by Bikemad »

Offline StadsImker

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
    • City Apiary in The Netherlands "Stads Imkerij"
Re: spoke size for MagicPie in 26 in rim
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2017, 11:16:47 AM »
Hello Alan and Bikemad,

I have found a way to get more miles out of my spokes.

I use transparant nailpolis to lock the nipples on the spokes. And that helps a lot! Because it prevents nipples to turn lose when the rim flexes. Since my last post in this topic I broke only one spoke! Need to replace them today.

My original spoke size on the back wheel is G12. And the two front wheels have spoke G10!
If someone can provide or make bigger size spokes for 26" GM rim I would buy them immediately!

Greetngs,
Philip

Love to ride my 60 year old Dutch Transport Bike, with MP5 and 24 volt 30 A LiFePO4 Headway battery-pack. Dec 2016 upgraded with two solar panels mono of 190 WP each and an extra 24V-30A (40152 8S2P) to get 48volts for the Magic Pie 5.