GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Jop Amsterdam on April 27, 2018, 09:08:17 AM
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Hi al,
thank you for having me,
I'm jop from the loverly city of Amsterdam and due to the environmental zone we now have here in town (and because its just cool as heck) I'm converting my vintage 2-stroke 50cc Gazelle Apollo motor-carrier (3 wheeled transport motorcycle, google "bakbrommer" for pictures) into an all electric vehicle.
I am nearly done, I chose the 72v 5kw GM with sinwave controller and 6 105Ah AGM batteries. But now I obviously need to program my controller.
I already calculated my allowed 45km/h top speed back to RPM but I was wondering if you people can advise me on ball park estimates of the other settings I should program in so that I can get from the starting line at a decent speed but not so fast I blow up my back wheel or chain.
My estimate is that my vehicle all done inc batteries will be about 300kg excluding my 90kg as a driver.
Also any other tips and tricks are very welcome, I have my MOD check upcoming Friday.
thank you in advance and obviously I will post an extensive topic with all my build and result pictures as soon as i'm allowed too.
cheers,
jop
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Hi and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to the forum.
You didn't mention which sinewave controller you have, so I'm guessing it's the VEC-200 or VEC-300?
There have been a couple of posts recently on the forum regarding poor torque on initial take off, but you will just have to try your particular setup and see how it performs.
You will probably need to set the current settings quite high to get that amount of weight moving from a standstill and may even need as much as 10:1 gear ratio between the motor and the rear wheel to multiply the available torque from the motor.
Let us know how it performs when you are able to test it, and it might be helpful if you can post some screenshots of your existing settings, along with some further details (Outer tyre diameter and the overall gear ratio that you are currently using etc.).
Fortunately, you don't need to worry about climbing steep hills in Amsterdam. ;)
Alan
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thanx for the welcome and reply,
VEC 300 indeed, (if my "chain vs bridge" will let me) my gears wil be 11 X 70, otherwise it will be 13 X 70.
My rear wheel has a 195.6 cm circumference
Sadly my new gears are not in yet so its going to be tight finishing everything it in time for my MOD check this Friday, but maybe my old gasoline gears set up of 15 X 47 will be enough if needed to make it road legal without frying my fuse, the MOD station is just around the corner from my workshop so if needed I can even walk until the gate.
Hooked up the last cables this afternoon, going to have a crack at programming my controller tomorrow.
But already saw that it now gives a "HALL Protection" error, so yeah, i'm sure i'll be back here with questions.
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Here some pics from when I finished restoring my frame, my old gasoline 50cc 2-stroke set up and my heavy as hell battery pack (if I ever win the lottery I will def switch to LiPo but for now that's is sadly not really feasible if I want to keep a decent range)
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I think your gearing is going to be too high:
1) 11x70 = 6.36:1 ratio with a theoretical speed of 83km/h @ 4500rpm.
The motor would need to be limited to 2440rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.
2) 13x70 = 5.385:1 ratio theoretical speed of 98km/h @ 4500rpm.
The motor would need to be limited to 2066rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.
3) 15x47 = 3.13:1 ratio theoretical speed of 168km/h @ 4500rpm.
The motor would need to be limited to 1250rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.
My previously mentioned 10:1 gear ratio would still have a theoretical speed of 53km/h @ 4500rpm.
The motor would need to be limited to 3820rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.
I think you may have problems trying to pull away with all 3 of the options you have listed. :-\
I think a much larger rear sprocket and/or a smaller rear wheel may be required. ;)
Alan
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i was afraid of that, not sure if I will be able to find a larger rear sprocket than 70t without having it made to order.
and a smaller rear wheel would be a rather annoying self-defeat as I decided to go for a more expensive mid motor instead of a hub motor out of mostly aesthetic choices.
that said, when I move out of town next year i'm probably not going to keep it limited at 45 km/h
i guess I could try fitting in a 1/3 gear box in there somewhere at some point but damn, I have already gone so far over budget and available time for this project... :-\
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decided to move my MOD appointment with a month, feels like a bit of a defeat but will get there in the end, found a really nice gear reductor, will be another heavy hit on my bank account but I think it will be worth it; https://www.apexdyna.nl/nl/producten/ae-serie-rvs-aseptische-tandwielkast/
the laptop that I borrowed and my controller really didnt agree with each other, hopefully the newer notebook I got will be better and sort me out tomorrow.
i'll be doubtless back with more questions though,
thank you again.
j
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Update;
Still need to get a laptop that decides it wants to communicate with my controller (curse you bill gates!! ;) ) but any pointers already considering the “abnormal hall input” that my LED is blinking?
Seems my chain wont allow me to use a 11 front sprocket anyway so I guess I better start saving for that planetary reductor.
Quite a runaway project financially but its still going to be worth it if I get it to run like I hope it will.
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If you are getting 5 regular flashes, check that the Hall sensors and the Phase wires are all connected properly to the correct terminals.
Alan
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Okay, this is getting weird, I keep having the 5 “hall input abnormal” flashes, unless I switch the red and black of the hall sensor cable, then it runs, but only backwards and if I don't touch the throttle.
The good news is that it does something I guess and that I got the controller programmer successfully hooked up.
Anything I need to do there in the settings except put it on 72v, enable manual cruise control and limit my top RPM?
Thanks in advance again!
J.
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Something doesn't sound quite right there, and reversing the polarity of the +5V supply to the Hall sensors does not seem like a good idea to me. :o
Make sure everything is wired as it should be and then check the voltages on the Hall sensors to ensure the red is 4.5~5V and the black is 0V in relation the the battery - (negative) terminal.
Then check the signal voltages on the yellow, green and blue hall sensor wires. The voltage on each of these wires should switch between 0V and 4~5V as the motor is rotated slowly.
I would also check the voltage on the three wires for the throttle, red is +5V and the black is 0V and the signal wire should be 0.8~1V with the throttle released, and over 3.25V at full throttle.
Also, check that you have the correct throttle type selected in the software (Hall or Potentiometer) to match your throttle.
Alan
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There is def something weird going on, I assume the controller does not have its own battery so why the heck do I have 24.2 volts on the B+ even with my battery pack physically disconnected (inc the ground not touching anything?!?!!) ?
(And no its also not plugged into my laptop)
Completely out of my depth here...
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I expect it is just a bit of residual voltage stored in the controller's capacitors. They will gradually self discharge over time, but if the battery supply has recently been disconnected, they may still contain some of the original voltage, which is probably what you are seeing on the voltmeter. ;)
If you place a resistance (e.g. an incandescent light bulb) across the controller's battery cables (while they are disconnected), it should discharge the capacitors completely.
Alan
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thanx, though I was going crazy now, i'm beginning to suspect there is something wired wrong in my BAC-0111 Twist Throttle, I will measure the wires through tomorrow, do you know by any chance the color coding for that one already?
the shop I bought it from will be closed from tomorrow till next monday because of ascension day, otherwise I would start bothering them.
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Most throttles use the black for ground (0V) and red for the +5V supply, but the wire used for the throttle signal wire is usually green or white.
Having said that, I have also seen some GM thumb throttles using green, black and white wires for the Hall sensor connections. :-\
Alan
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thanx, think I have the red and black right but there is a good chance I switched the e-lock and throttle wire, white and green indeed.
luckily i'm reasonably sure I haven't fried it yet since I have a completely separate 72v battery indicator elsewhere, so even if I wired everything in my throttle wrong there is little chance I put more voltage through it than it can handle.
fingers crossed this is indeed where I went wrong
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Seems my throttle was wired fine (though indeed wrongly set in the controller software) but I messed up in the hall wires afterall.
The 5 blink now switched to a 15 blink. Not much else happening
Measurement results:
Black - red 4.94 so good
Black - green/white throttle 0.84 to 3.5
Hall sensors while turning shaft by hand:
Yellow 0.1. - 3.1
Green 0.1. - 3.2
Blue 0.1 - 3.03
White 0.17 - 0.18 and sometimes the engine starts to want to start spinning spontanues
So it seems my problem (now) is on white, any thoughts?
Sorry to bother you this much, you are a livesaver.
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Black - green/white throttle 0.84 to 3.5
Now I'm confused, is your throttle signal wire green, white, or green and white?
At least your Hall sensors appear to be working OK. :D
I think the white wire in the motor's Hall sensor harness is the signal wire from the internal temperature sensor within the motor (it also shares the same black common ground connection as the Hall sensors)
Is the spontaneous spinning related to testing the voltage on the white wire?
Unfortunately, I'm not sure what error the 15 flashes relate to, as the highest I have seen documented is 14.
I suggest you email Andy at GoldenMotor in China (andyzhang@goldenmotor.com) and see if he can help.
Alan
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Now I'm confused, is your throttle signal wire green, white, or green and white?
green&white on the controller harness which connects to white on the throttle wiring (green is the LED batery status i'm not using). Delightfully confusing isn't?
At least your Hall sensors appear to be working OK. :D
whoop! babysteps
I think the white wire in the motor's Hall sensor harness is the signal wire from the internal temperature sensor within the motor (it also shares the same black common ground connection as the Hall sensors)
ah, that at least explains the different reading
Is the spontaneous spinning related to testing the voltage on the white wire?
yes, if I test it it seems the axle spins a bit more freely and if I then give it a hard swing the engine seems to want to start running.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure what error the 15 flashes relate to, as the highest I have seen documented is 14.
I suggest you email Andy at GoldenMotor in China (andyzhang@goldenmotor.com) and see if he can help.
will do, thank you!
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No reply out of China yet but after putting the software back to the default settings (safe the throttle being hall) and dis- and reconecting all my plugs the 15 flashes thing is mostly gone, it sometimes returns when I push in my brakes.
But now I have mostly a 4 flash stall time warning, when I use my throttle I hear it wants to do something, if I give it a hand swing it starts to run, but the second time I twist the throttle it starts to run backwards and runsaway while twisting the throttle suddenly works as a break?
Is this because its at this moment not connected to the chain/rearwheel or is it still doing stuff its not supposed too?
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Ok, that last problem of my throttle acting like a break has suddenly been resolved, now it runs seemingly like it supposed too except only it runs backwards (unless I switch it in reverse but then my brake doesnt work?!?)
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Perhaps the 15 regular flashes indicate that the brake is applied (or brake switch/wiring fault)?
Are you sure your brake was not applied (or the brake lever not fully released) before?
As your Hall sensors are definitely working, it sounds to me like either the Phase wires or Hall sensor signal wires are not connected in the correct positions/sequence, and this could explain why the motor is simply stalling instead of trying to turn.
If the controller thinks that the motor's shaft is in a different position due to incorrect wiring, it could be applying a reverse voltage to the phase wires which would cause the stator coils to magnetically attract the closest magnets causing the stall protection to cut in (hence the four flashes) instead of repelling the magnets, which would force the motor to turn.
The only problem you will encounter with trying to run the motor with no load is that it might rev up to maximum rpm as soon as the throttle starts to work.
This is because the throttle controls the motor's torque (not its rpm) so until the controller registers some load on the motor's shaft (by using current sensing to determine the torque) it cannot control the torque.
When load is detected, it should then be able to regulate the motor's rpm by adjusting the amount of torque being produced.
Ok, that last problem of my throttle acting like a break has suddenly been resolved, now it runs seemingly like it supposed too except only it runs backwards (unless I switch it in reverse but then my brake doesnt work?!?)
To reverse the motor's default direction of rotation, the Blue and Yellow Phase wires must be swapped over on the controller terminals, and the Green and Yellow Hall sensor wires must be swapped on the Hall sensor connector.
The regenerative braking (and the cruise function) will only work in the forward direction, which is why your brake doesn't work in reverse (but it should still cut the power to the motor). ;)
Alan
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Went to the shop and then ran it for a bit and now it seems to run fine, so maybe there was just some metal dust in there somewhere.
And yes im an idiot, it runs obviously backwards for me because its not designed for a motorcycle conversion, the standard is clockwise and I need it counterclockwise im going to try swapping what you have said, thank you!
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Yes, the phase and hall switcharoo worked, this weekend I should be able to put my chain on and take it for a test drive.
Probably still have to increase my gear ratio but it should at least be enough to make it through the DMV check.
Thanx a thousand again and I will report back with how it rides.
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so new day new problems to ask advise about.
in the end I got a 4:1 planetary gearbox, obviously the 13t:70t gear ratio was now way too high so now I run it with 15t:42t. while still a bit slow from the spot without a push that seem to run o.k. enough.
i had to take the motor off for some changes to the gearbox connection though and now after putting it back today I had a new problem.
using the throttle seems to give only really short bursts of power and then cut out, is this likely caused by;
- my programming of the vec300? I have everything back to factory settings except increasing the "accelerate" and "decelerate" rmp's, was that a bad idea? I also tried both the "linear" and the "hyperbolic" throttle setting (that didn't seem to make much difference, but what is the correct one?)
- low battery? the battery was pretty low but no way near too low I would think, I left it to charge overnight to be sure.
- I repositioned the motor 90 degrees too better come out with my wiring, did this mess with my motor hall sensors vs those of the throttle?
hope you have some suggestions, if not I will just keep fiddling but I try to understand what i'm doing instead of happening into a working conversion by accident with no idea how I got there.
thanx in advance again!
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Hi Jop,
Simply rotating the motor 90 degrees should not have affected its operation, therefore I suspect it is more likely to be a problem with one or more of the program settings, but without knowing what the default (and maximum acceptable) values are, it is difficult to say which values need to be entered to cure the problem.
If you are using a twist or thumb throttle, the "Throttle mode selection" should be set to 0:Linear and "Speed Throttle Type" would typically be set to 0: Hall Effect.
"Hyperbolic" is only used when you have a Forward/Reverse boat style throttle with Neutral in the mid position.
Alan
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Seem it was just low voltage on the batteries.
It runs and it runs well, needs a small toe push to start from a deadstop but after that it goes to 45k/h comfortably.
16 juli I need to show it at the “make it road legal” place.
Hopefully I get an all clear (still a bit worried about my new weight together with my antique brakes) and then I can really test it longer distance and hopefully get an idea of my range.
Thanx again for all the help! Ill ad some photos from the set up now with the planetary gearbox. (Which is an Apex dynamics 4:1 with straight teeth)
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Pictures of the gearbox set up