GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Dachawave on December 26, 2015, 08:10:01 PM
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Hello everyone :)
I'm a owner of Magic Pie 3 motor and I was driving about 12000 km in a past 8 months. Everything was perfect without any error until today and I got serious problem with MP3. Last night regulary I was left bike in my room, sleep nicely and wake up. Then I was take my bike for ride and first notice the led diodes on regular 48V trotlle not working. I try to put some gas, but nothing in response.
Then I notice some smell from throtlle like a burned electronics. First I was open the throtlle and find that hall element linear sensor is melted and defective. I don't know what was the reason and how it's possible to happened this. In a picture that I upload, you can see that sensor is damaged and I'm not able to read mark on sensor to see for replacment. If you have this throtlle for 48V od MP3, can someone provide me a correct mark on your sensor ? I will be thankful to you :)
Second thing, I disconnect a battery and try to drive a bike without a help of MP3. Then I was notice something strange...When I try to driving bike with just pedaling more then 10km/h, suddenly motor activate regerative breaking and very hard continue to break until reach 3km/h and in this moment something release this forse of breaking. I repeat, everything is hapening without a conected battery. And anytime if I try to go more then 10km/h, regnerative brake activate it every time and don't allow me to drive more then 10km/h :) I can drive 8 and 9km/h, but when speedometer show 10km/h, regenerative breaking is somehow activate.
Third thing I was also notice...Now, rear wheel where is a MP3 motor, spinning a little harder then before this problem (bike slowing faster then before) and I don't notice any strange sound in motor...
Also I notice one more thing...When I connect a battery, in my analyzer, I see now after this problem that something pull the power when bike is inactive (when it's stopped) and draw me about 7W in 54V
Does you guys know what would be a problem with MP3 ?
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Hi and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to the forum.
You should be able to use a Honeywell SS49E hall sensor as a replacement, but a failed hall sensor should not have affected the operation of the throttle LEDs.
Regarding the automatic regen, try unplugging the main control harness from the motor harness and see if it is still the same. If the fault disappears, there must be a fault in the main control harness or one of the brake switches.
If you don't have the lighting feed or horn feed connected, it is possible that some of the unused wires may have accidentally touched against each other, which can cause the thin wires to get very hot, melt through the insulation and short out other wires inside the harness if the throttle switch or horn switch has been pressed while the unused wires were touching each other.
Alan
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Alan, thanks you for a interest about my situation :)
And I have some updates about this case from last night...I was try to measure a voltage in throtlle +5V and -5V and first, when the battery is unplugged, I always have 0.28V and when plug a battery, voltage goes to 1,15V on a half sencond and after 1 second, voltage qickly drops below 1V (from 0.60V and continue slowly to drop) so it seems that signal for the throtlle to work from 5V I don't get it from a controller.
I think that because of that, I don't have a LED lights in throtlle, other words, I don't get a enough power from controller to power a throtlle. In a mean time, I was also unplged all cables that came with MP3 and still without any devices connected on MP3, the renerative brake is again active if I spin a wheel more then 10km/h...Like I see, I try also to measure a voltage when spin a wheel with hands and see that I spin in about 10km/h, MP3 produce about 10V and moment when voltage does more then 10V, somehow regenerative braking is turn on and see that voltage jump to 18V and start fast to drop. Like I understand, 10V is some kind of voltage to acitvate electonic in controller to switch on a regenerative braking without battery, offcourse...
My personal think is that my controller have some damage inside because of this behavior and even if I try to replace hall sensor with Honeywell SS49E, I will affrad that I will again fry this sensor...Or maybe I'm wrong ? :-\
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If it were my problem, I would disconnect all the connectors ( throttle, lights, brake cables) from the front "Y" connector and measure the +5 VDC from the controller. (Battery must be connected). If the +5VDC is good, the controller is probably good. Under no condition would I ever reconnect the throttle that you already know is damaged. I would not just repalce the Hall sensor, I would spend the extra money and replace the entire assembly. You have no idea what other damage has been done by the burnt Hall sensor. My guess from your description is that the 5VDC supply is sensing an overcurrent condition and folding back the output voltage. But data is always better than guesses.
Regarding the regen condition, the motor is acting as a generator, and it seems to be self powering the system, with the controller sensing a brake being pressed. Follow Alan's advice. He knows what he is talking about better than anyone else on this board.
TTFN,
Dennis
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If the +5V supply has been shorted out within one of the harnesses it may have permanently damaged the regulator chip in the controller itself or if you're lucky, it could begin working correctly again once the short has been located and rectified.
Remove the controller from the motor and carefully check the voltage at the +5V terminal (+5) on the controller in relation to battery negative cable. If it does not read ~5V with the battery connected try unsoldering the White wire and recheck the voltage again. (On the MPIII controller I checked it was a White wire, but don't just assume that yours is the same). If it still doesn't read at least 4.5V with the wire disconnected then the controller is definitely faulty.
If the +5v supply is OK but the automatic braking still occurs with the main harness disconnected from the motor harness there will be a problem either somewhere inside the motor harness or with the controller itself.
Remove the controller from the motor and carefully inspect the coloured wires soldered onto the controller from the motor harness and then unsolder the thin wire from the brake terminal (br) on the controller (On the MPIII controller I checked it was a Blue wire, but don't just assume that yours is the same).
With the brake wire disconnected and safely insulated, refit the controller to the wheel and then spin the wheel to see if the braking still occurs above 10km/h. If it still occurs, the controller will need to be replaced, but if it no longer occurs, the problem is likely to be a short circuit somewhere inside the motor harness which might be repairable if it can be easily located.
Alan
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Ok, I just do some inspection about all cables and Y cable too. I testing all connections and every wire is ok, there is no any break or shorts. Also, I remove Y cable and direct from motor cable test +5V signal and measurement showing the same...0.28V I get on +5V so definitely there is some short in controller and I think that this part need to be replaced...Also, throtlle was also suffer from this short...
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Ok, guys...Magic Pie III kit was fixed and it's "working", but not 100% correct. Motor and throtlle is working ok, but when I try to move from stop point, when I put some gas, motor start to somekind to block motor and spin and rewind in small steps first and hear strange sound from them and after that regulary accelerated. If I moving about 5km/h and put some gas, the motor is start regulary to spin. No problem when I moving. So, problem is when I try to start from stopping point. I need always to manualy start the bike with pedaling until I reach about 5km/h and after that, put a gas and everything is working after that...The wheel I was recorded and this behavior is only visible at stop and low speeds...Other words, sound that came from motor is like someone is hitting the same motor, some kind of knocking or similar. Here is a video to see this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr4-E5pj-Sg
And one more thing is intresting about this...When I programing mp3 kit, I notice that when I put option for the motor type: FWD and REV, the spining of wheel is the opposite direction...For example: when I put motor type in option to FWD, wheel is spinning in the opposite direction REV and when I put to REV, the wheel spinning in FWD direction :) So, I need to put REV option to motor spin forward...Little strange, right ?
Does anyone can figure what is the problem ?
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It sounds as if you have the phase wires connected in the wrong order.
Have you removed the controller and disconnected the wires? If so you will have to remove it again and check that the three thick phase wires (Green, Blue and Yellow) are connected to the correct terminals.
I suspect you may need to put them right and then set the motor type to FWD again. ;)
Alan
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Mp3 kit was at authorized service and they are fixing all problems with throtlle and burned controller. I notice that service has replace all cables with wires because I see that they are new one and they are shining bright ;) I also thinking what could cause this behavior that everything is in opposite direction in this situation. So, first thing I was also suspect that phrase wires didn't connected like it should be, but does anywhere I can find a complete wiring manual from mainboard on controller to the wiring everything else ?
Alan, by the way, are you notice a sound in video that is posted ? Did you notice strange interrupted sound that came from contoller ? You can also see on video that wheel start to spinning in one direction for a 1/10 second and then go into opposite direction...And this behavior somehow "confuse" a motor and produce this strange crunchy sounds...I think that I will be able to fix this alone, just need, like I said, complete manual of this wirings from controller to all other peripherals...
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Unfortunately, these are the only wiring diagrams for the MPIII:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/LatestMP3wiring.JPG)
(http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/MP3%20SmartPie%20Wiring%20Layout.jpg)
Getting the phase wires connected in the correct order should cure the uneven running and strange noises.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4879.msg28493#msg28493) for more details on the phase wire connections.
Alan
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Alan, I follow your advice on second post about phase wire connections and connect wires in your option number 5
Option 5 Y G B instead od option 1 B G Y where it was phase wires on beggining
And after that, motor is start to buzzing. Then I connect USB cable and click a factory reset button on program and then motor start to spinning in opposite direction even if I put option in program to run forward. After that, again connect a cable and set 120 phase to 60 and then motor start to spin in forward direction normal like it is in a program. So, only different in option 5 is the motor start to "listen" a direction and now working ok, but working only in 60 phase mode, witch is strange that can work in this settings...But, again with strange noise and kicking when start, like it was on video that I posted, behavior of the motor is the same...I really don't have idea what to do if I experiments with other options...
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I suggest that you first check that the Hall sensor wires are all connected correctly to the connector plug:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hallsensorplug.JPG)
Make sure that all of the metal terminals are fully inserted into the holder as shown above.
If the connector seems fine, I would check the output of the three Hall sensors (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4935.msg28743#msg28743) to make sure they are all working correctly.
While the controller is removed, it would be worth checking the windings by simply shorting (touching together) the three different pairs of phase wires in turn (Green->Blue, Blue->Yellow and Yellow->Green) and then trying to turn the motor by hand (in relation to the axle) to see if the turning force required to overcome the electromagnetic dynamic braking force is the same for each of the three shorted pairs.
With all three phase wires separated from each other the wheel should spin relatively easily, but with all three held together it should be very difficult to spin.
If the windings and the Hall sensors are all good and working correctly, I would then try different combinations of the phase wires until you find the correct sequence that will hopefully make the motor run correctly.
Alan
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The connector wires is ok, I check it first. And after few hours, I finnaly found that option no.6 is working. I don't know why option 5 is not working, but ok :)
Option 6 Y B G
So, next things I notice when I connecting option no.6, first one the behavior of motor is perfect...No more kicking at low speeds. Second thing is a sound of motor. It sounds little louder and it has more vibrations when I give some throttle (gas)...Third thing is throttle...When I connect 24V battery, the throttle is working ok, from 0-100%, so there is no problem. When I put a 48V battery, when I set a throttle to 50%, the motor is like I see, spnning at 100% RPM in that position. If I try to set throttle to 100%, I notice that RPM start to drop for about 5-10% RPM from maximum speed because I hear sound of the motor. Fourth thing is measurments...
When I put throttle on 50%, the voltage of battery with no load on start is 48,6V and in 50% of throttle (100% speed RPM) is about 47,3V, witch is good.
When I continue to push a throttle from 50-100%, voltage of same battery start to significantly drop from 47,3V to 43V, even the is no more load, but motor losse for about (5-10%) of maximum RPM. So, in this section when I put throttle from 50-100%, something is overload something...I don't know what...
The last behavior I notice on this option 6 is the spinnig of whell. In software, I must put a reverse direction of wheel to start to spinnig in forward direction. So, parameter in sofware show opposite direction, but it work in this way.
So, I little thinking and decide to change value of maximum speed in software to 50%. And guess what ? Throttle in this setting work perfect and RPM will not drop. Everything work 100% correct in this way and also I don't have any drop in voltage when pushing a throttle from 50-100%. So, my question is simple...Why this is happening ? Does this setting will be ok for the motor in the future ?
TODAY'S UPDATE:
After a first test drive, I notice that even if wheel spinnig ok, motor don't have enough power, I mean force to push a bike, because I see that motor take 30A, but it is weak and can get maximum speed only 27-28km/h :( Acceleration is also weak. It need eternity to speed up even if draw 30A constantly...After these 10 minutes of test ride, I left bike for a half hours, after that try again to test, but when I put some gas, I notice that wheel start to buzzing, it can not spinning forward or backward...So, only option that is working, number 6 again is useless. So, I don't have any oher option because all 6 now is not working...In a mean time, this half hours, didn't touch my bike...So, what is happening with this mp3 kit ??? :(
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I don't think the phase wire sequence is correct if the motor is drawing high current and causing the battery voltage to drop so much without any actual load on it.
I do not recommend using the motor with this configuration as it is unlikely to be good for either the controller or the battery.
If you cannot find the correct sequence of the phase wires, you may need to return it to the service agent and ask them to sort it out properly.
Alan
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Ok, I have final results what was been a problem with my mp3 kit. Alan, phase wire sequence is correct and I use it with option 5, but today I was testing hall sensors. I follow your links and posts how to do this. I use separate 5V source and start to testing hall sensors. And guess what...All 3 hall sensors are DEAD :) There is no voltage at all. Multimeter showing on all 3 wires 0.00V, the only change is when I turn wheel slowly, then multimeter show -0.00V and when it stop to spinning, the multimeter show again just 0,00V (without minus) :)
So, again I need to back this mp3 kit to autorized service agent to replace all these defect hall sensors... :-\
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I'm now very puzzled, because I wouldn't expect the motor to run at all with three dead Hall sensors.
Does the motor still run or has it now stopped working altogether?
Did you connect the 5V source correctly (Red to positive, Black to negative) and did you measure the actual voltage of the "separate 5V source" with the voltmeter?
I would strongly recommend checking the Hall sensors using the motor's controller to power them rather than an external power source and I also recommend connecting the meter's Black probe direct to the battery negative connection, as this makes it a lot easier to check the voltages on each of the hall connector pins as you only have one probe contact to concentrate on.
Using the controller's 5V supply prevents the possibility of incorrect or reversed polarity connections (which may damage the Hall sensors if the polarity was reversed and the external supply's current is greater than the Hall sensor's 15 mA max. supply current rating) and also enables you to check the 5V output from the controller to see if it is correct, before proceeding to check the individual outputs from the three Hall sensors.
A constant reading of between 4.5V and 5V should be expected on the Red wire with the battery plugged in and turned on.
If you get a reading of 0V, it would be worth measuring the voltage of a 1.5V AA battery just to check your voltmeter is working correctly, as the rotary selector dials on some multimeters can sometimes suffer from poor/dirty contacts (especially if they have not been used for a while).
If the meter reads the AA battery voltage correctly but still shows 0V on the Red wire, unplug the hall sensor connector and measure the voltage on the controller pin supplying the Red wire. If the voltage now reads 4.5~5V, it could be a Hall sensor failed in a short circuit state or a short between the Red and Black wires.
If the 5V output from the controller is definitely not working, then the controller is faulty and will need to be replaced.
If you definitely have 4.5~5V on the Red wire but still have 0V on the Yellow, Green and Blue Hall sensor output wires, it would indicate that the Hall sensors are probably faulty and will need to be replaced.
Alan
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Yes Alan, I figure it what to do and how...I make a stable source power with step down CC module and set up correctly with multimeter 5.01V and 0.12A current, so power is stable. Offcourse that I will be carefull about polarity and poor connections and my voltmeter is 100% working. I use voltmeter from 24h, constant use is about 2 hous every single day, so don't worry I have expirience about everything to not send wrong voltage, current or to not have poor connections ;) I was check voltmeter with battery's many kkinds when I see reading 0.00V just to be sure that he gave me correct readings :)
The motor is running like I describe before...I need to speed up for about 5km/h and then push the throttle to not get kicking in motor in start (from stop point). So, all symtoms is that motor work without hall sensors in sensorless mode, because I think that motor somehow when notice that something wrong with hall sensors, controller is start first in sensor mode and if he find that something is wrong, then he switch to sensorless mode...
Also I was try to test hall sensors when the separeted power supply connected with 5.01V and 0.12A stable and use like you said, power from controller. I got same results...0.00V got readings from all 3 hall sensors on 6pin molex...When I check voltage on red and black wire, I get regulary 5.01V like I setup up...The same I was get when I was check voltage with battery turned on from controller to see does it produce any voltage and on controller I get stable 5.02V. Offcourse I was be carefull about polarity...
So I think after all measurments, that all 3 hall sensors are dead, like I describe you...And mp3 kit was send today to autorized service again to fix this...Because for me it's too much complicated to replace this...Other words, I didnt see any detailed pictures here on forum and on google search (verry inportant to me) and manual how to do this...Nevermind, I will wait one or two weeks and will let you know how the story was finnished :)
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Ok, it's time to tell you all that I got (again) my mp3 kit from authorized service and now everything is work 100% correct :D They are obviously forget to check hall sensors and like they told me that all 3 hall sensors was dead (burned) and because of that I was have a problem from start point. In a mean time, I was made a li-on battery 14S 58.8V with 45AH and BMS and it's work like a charm ;)
Thank you all for your help and support about this issue that I have with mp3 kit :)