GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Sulanino on April 18, 2013, 12:28:19 PM
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Hello!
I fitted an 48/12 VDC converter on my wifes cargobike. First time I pressed the light switch the controller stopped working.
No response to throttle, wheel very hard to rotate by hand or foot (did not try any other bodyparts).
Disconnected the converter and bought a new controller from GM Canada and fitted it into the wheel (rear).
All LEDs lights up. Battery at 51 VDC. All wires and connections seems OK when measuring ohm (had to make cables longer to fit an cargobike). I have connected pins (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4599.msg26581#msg26581) to determin if the throttle is defect. But the wheel wont rotate unless I do it manually. And it then rotates nice and easy.
When braking after being rotated manually it takes a second or so before the wheel reacts to the braking handle being activated.
Any help much appreciated! THANKS!
-Lasse
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Hi Lasse and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to the forum.
Try measuring the voltage between the battery negative connection and the lower socket in the picture below where the paper clip (shown in blue) is inserted:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Throttletest.JPG)
A reading of ~5V would at least indicate that the 5V output from the controller is not shorted to ground somewhere within the extended cable connections.
Check to see if the voltage still reads ~5v while the paper clip is touching both sockets.
It is also worth checking that the brake signal wire has not been accidentally shorted to the ground connection within the extended cable connections.
I'm not sure what else to suggest at this stage other than re-checking every joint where the cable has been extended. ???
Alan
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Thank you!
Did what you suggested. Please see attached file or link.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxrZtr09lolEa3RTN3NYdU1SWGs/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxrZtr09lolEa3RTN3NYdU1SWGs/edit?usp=sharing)
Extension cable and connectors (6-pin DIN) OK.
-Lasse
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I have just studied your test results, and all of your voltage readings would appear to be correct.
My next suggestion would be to remove the controller to check that the 6 pin hall sensor connector is properly fitted and that non of the crimped sockets have been dislodged from the connector housing during the recent controller swap:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hallsensorplug.JPG)
If the DC-DC inverter had somehow allowed a high voltage pulse to damage the controller, I'm wondering whether the hall sensors may have also been damaged at the same time. ???
If you connect the battery and then check the signal voltage on each of the Yellow, Green and Blue wires on the 6 pin connector, you should have a reading which regularly alternates between 5V and 0V as the wheel is turned very slowly by hand.
If all three signal wires produce the correct 0V, 5V, 0V, 5V... when the wheel is turned, then the hall sensors are obviously working correctly.
However, if you have a continuous reading within the 0 to 5V range which does not change when the wheel is rotated, this would be a good indication that the hall sensor has failed.
If all three hall sensors are all still working properly, I would say that the replacement controller (or its wiring harness) is faulty.
You could check for continuity between the green throttle signal wire which goes from the "sb" connection on the controller's PCB to the top hole where the paper clip was inserted on the 8 pin socket.
If continuity on the throttle signal wire is OK, then the problem must be within the controller unit itself.
One more suggestion, as your battery gauge LEDs are lighting up it's easy to assume that the battery is working OK, but I have heard instances where a non running motor problem had been traced to a battery fault, even though the throttle LEDs were all lighting up correctly!
I know it seems unlikely, but could the DC-DC converter have somehow damaged the battery's BMS? ???
It might be worth trying another battery if you have access to one, or even connecting a hair dryer (or mains voltage electric fire etc.) to you battery and checking you have current flowing.
Please let us know what you find.
Alan
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Thank you.
Extension cable (CAT5 UTP LAN cable): OK The 6 colours at the wheel ends up being connected to the same colours at the other end. No cross connections on the way.
Hall sensors: OK (i think) Measuring between the RED +4,7 VDC and each of the 3 signal wires makes the reading shift between 0,65 VDC and 4,65 VDC (approximate readings).
Battery: OK. I only have one and I do not know of others in Denmark (www.denmark.dk) riding Golden Motors. I took 4 bulbs (12 V, 21 W) in series and connected them to the battery. At the time the battery had a voltage of 58,6. Judging from the light and heat coming from the bulbs I would say the battery can deliver some power.
EDIT: I did not measure I (A). The fuse in my ampere meter seems to be defect.
-Lasse
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Have you try with hall sensors conector disconnected.
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Have you try with hall sensors conector disconnected.
No, not yet! :)
-Lasse
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As all of your wiring seems to be correct and the hall sensors appear to be working correctly, I am reasonably sure that the controller itself must be at fault, but I would suggest one final check to eliminate all possible wiring problems:
Double check that the three phase wires are correctly attached to the correct screw terminals on the controller.
(The yellow wire is connected to terminal marked YELLOW etc...)
If the phase wires are correct, but the motor still does not run, then I think the controller will need to be replaced.
Alan
P.S. I forgot to mention that if the battery is supplying enough current (1~2 Amps) to light those bulbs then it should allow the motor to run.
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All three phase (AC motor?) wires are connected to the correct terminals.
Thank you.
-Lasse
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Have you try with hall sensors conector disconnected.
No, not yet! :)
-Lasse
Will not turn without hallsensors.
-Lasse
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Also settings are right for the new controller?
I mean phase angle setting.
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Also settings are right for the new controller?
I mean phase angle setting.
Angle set at 120. I believe that is correct. Right?
-Lasse
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Yup.
Have you also checked if your thumb/twist throttle is working properly?
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MP3FP, Check out the initial post in this topic and you will see that Lasse has already carried out a simple test to completely bypass the throttle, brake switches and the complete front harness and multi connector assembly, so the fault is most likely to be the controller (or motor harness wiring attached to it) and not the throttle.
Lasse, have you contacted Gary (GM Canada) regarding the suspect replacement controller?
Alan
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MP3FP, Check out the initial post in this topic and you will see that Lasse has already carried out a simple test to completely bypass the throttle, brake switches and the complete front harness and multi connector assembly, so the fault is most likely to be the controller (or motor harness wiring attached to it) and not the throttle.
Lasse, have you contacted Gary (GM Canada) regarding the suspect replacement controller?
Alan
I did so yesterday.
""You could try the trouble shooting area of my faq
www.goldenmotor.ca/FAQ
Let me know if you still have no luck.
Gary Salo
Golden Motor Canada""
-Lasse
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Yup.
Have you also checked if your thumb/twist throttle is working properly?
Yes I have! :-)
-Lasse
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Hmmm...........you should get a new controller from warranty :)
That's why I have almost everything spare, you never know when having problems.
And have to order from China/anywhere else.
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Hmmm...........you should get a new controller from warranty :)
That's why I have almost everything spare, you never know when having problems.
And have to order from China/anywhere else.
Well, a spare controller costs, in Denmark sent from Gary in Canada, around 220 USD (with Taxes and VAT)
A controller without Taxes and VAT costs around 155 USD.
So I do not have a habit of having many spareparts. Only if it is bought within the European Union. Then I do not have to pay Danish tax and VAT.
-Lasse
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Aah I have one use and one new controller and usb cable for sale.
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Support ticket created.
-Lasse
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New controller from Gary installed. Still no movement... Sorry Gary!
Next I will replace the 3 Hall-sensors in the motor. They may be defect despite they they seemed OK when I measured them.
GoldenMotor have them in their warehouse and will send them to me.
Model: GH141F
I will return with more news when the Hall-sensors have been replaced.
-Lasse
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Received 8 Hall sensors from Golden Motor (18 USD for shipment, otherwise free of charge).
Hope to get the wheel fixed this weekend.
-Lasse
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Well, new Hall-sensors was not it.
But some progress have been made. Doing the "throttle check" the wheel turned a few mm. I noticed that the wire I used somehow had become corroded (not knowing the right word for "copper rust" CuSO4).
Half an hour later I came to the conclusion that with the right resistance (Ohm) between the to pins would make the wheel turn. I havent been able to find the right ohm yet. Measured ohm through the throttle. No matter the throttle position the value was the same. It may be defect.
SO I think that maybe newer MP III controllers have a safety feature. When the throttle comes below a certain Ohm value it cuts power to avoid a runaway bike in case of a short (water, damaged cable, etc).
Can anyone confirm that the "throttle check" works as described?
When pins are shorted the motor goes to the highest speed the controller is programmed to.
Thanks,
Lasse
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Can anyone confirm that the "throttle check" works as described?
When pins are shorted the motor goes to the highest speed the controller is programmed to.
Hi Lasse, the throttle on the controller is controlled by the voltage output from the throttle hall sensor, not a variable resistor, so to check the throttle operation you would really need to measure the voltage on the throttle signal wire while it is connected and powered up, which is not easy to do on the MPIIIs without removing the controller.
(Motor starts at ~1.25V and Maximum power is reached at ~3.25V)
The GM controllers usually incorporate a safety feature which prevents the motor from running if the battery power is accidentally turned on while the throttle is operated.
This is why testing the motor with a piece of wire bridging the two pins requires the controller to be powered up before the wire is inserted, otherwise the motor is prevented from running due to the controller's built in safety feature.
Alan
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Thanks Alan!
What happens when the controller gets more than 3,25 VDC?
Using a wire the controller gets approximately 5 VDC.
-Lasse
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If the controller gets more than 3.25 volts (i.e. 5V) it should make the motor run at full speed.
The motor's speed/power only varies while the signal voltage is between 1.25V and 3.25V. Below 1.25V it will not run at all, and above 3.25V it will simply remain on full throttle.
This is why there is a "dead spot" at both ends of the throttle movement, the throttle has to be twisted several degrees before the motor will start, and when riding with full throttle it also needs to be backed off by a similar amount before it has any noticeable effect on the speed.
Alan
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Thanks Alan , I always wondered why there was a dead spot on both ends of the twist throttle .Rod
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Problem solved. :)
It was the throttle! New throttle and now it works! Had I just known that a long time ago. But, I dit the "Throttle check" so I thought the throttle was OK.
So, I can confirm that doing the "Throttle check" bridging the two pins does not help.
Has anyone actually tried the "Throttle check" with succes?
-Lasse
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You cant bridge the pins before the motor is switched on. If you don't get a kick from the throttle, sometimes I try a 1k resistor. Ive had controllers that wont work unless there is a drop to the signal through the connected to the hall. First Ive heard this with the GM controllers. Maybe my old MP2 needed a resistor to test it. Its been that long.
I have one 20" MP3 waiting in Sydney to be cleared and sent to me in Queensland. I can test a few things to see if anything has changed.
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Les, it would be nice if You could test it on Your MP3 and see how it behaves.
I have bridged the pins both before and after power has been supplied. No reaction.
Only reaction was when the connection was bad (drop in voltage).
-Lasse
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It would be helpful for Alan also to know if something has recently changed so his testing procedures the forum uses is effective. Sorting these problems out is hard enough, when GM change the goal posts, we could go around in circles all day and get nowhere.
I had quiet a few hick up getting up an running, and keeping running. I started maybe 6 years ago, I first came here with a throttle the broke off when the bike fell over with these 4x huge 24ah lead acid batteries I was using, crazy heavy bike it was.
Anyway, Its good your bike is going now, how do you like it. Pretty cool huh. I even charge mine in the garage using solar power, it feels great, the sun pushing you along and to be totally emissions free..