GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: dBlues on October 16, 2012, 08:05:04 PM
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Hello,
I browsed the forum but couldn't find an answer yet.
I recently washed my bike with new Smart Pie on it. Before it had been working flawlessly, it's really amazing.
But then after I put the power back on, it wouldn't move - all the battery indicator lights are showing, and when I twist the throttle, the motor only occasionally makes a 'click' sound as if releasing regen brake.
When I rotate the rear wheel with throttle on, either direction, it goes 'click - click - click -...'
I did the following tests:
- take off all the regen brake cabling and left hand buttons, leaving only throttle: "click-click-click"
- use either of the regen brakes: no sound when rotating, no brake activated
- wheel spins freely when power on and not twisting throttle
- light button has no effect (the wire end has been taped)
- it's pedelec version but pedelec sensor is NOT ever been installed yet
- I took off all the cabling and used hair dryer to dry them, no effect
- the pin connect -test did nothing at all (power on, connect pins in 12 o'clock and next to the right, arrow-sign in the bottom)
Seems like some of the windings are not activated or they have become faulty. Is there anything I can do? Wait a couple of days to see if it has dried?
-Mikko
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Hi Mikko, it sounds like you're not having a lot of success with your motor at the moment. :(
Without knowing what the water may have actually affected, or where it may have found its way in, it's difficult to say whether it will dry out easily or not.
Is the big cable coming from the controller situated above or below the axle?
Did you use a bucket and sponge, a hose pie, or a jet-wash to wash your bike?
If the water has managed to find its way into the motor itself, it could simply be causing temporary problems with the Hall Sensors.
But if it's found its way into the controller housing and onto the circuit board, it could possibly cause permanent damage to one or more of the components if it has conducted the high battery voltage onto delicate low voltage circuits.
It is definitely worth placing it somewhere warm to see if it will make a full recovery, but you may have to wait several days to see if this works.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.gif)
Alan
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What a relief!!! It worked first time this evening when I got back from work. ??? :o :o 8)
In the morning the symptoms were still the same.
It seems to be ok now (knock knock).
About the washing equipment; I used a small manually pressurized bucket /spray, filled with water only. Plus a brush.
The cable is actually situated almost straight above. This might be a problem?
Hm, I'm still a bit hesitant to drive now. I'll probably wait a couple of days for it to dry.
How well do the plastics tolerate generic grease/vaseline/paste? I was thinking at least using the electrical connector paste.
I guess I should think about potting the lever and the left hand buttons casings.
Connectors are ok quality I guess, but nothing's perfect anyway.
I suppose I'll turn the axle upside down so the cable won't lead the water in.
Thanks!
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The cable is actually situated almost straight above. This might be a problem?
I suppose I'll turn the axle upside down so the cable won't lead the water in.
Good to hear it's working again Mikko. (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/6_small.GIF)
Don't change the position of the cable because it should be better that way around. Although the cable runs down towards the axle, it actually curls back up inside the recessed potion of the axle and goes upwards into the controller, so the water is less like to get in through the cable opening with it fitted this way around.
If the cable was fitted below the axle, any water on the axle could simply follow the retaining circlip onto the cable and into the controller (assuming the cable is not sealed properly where it enters the controller's heat sink cover).
I have not dismantled the Smart Pie yet, but perhaps I will pull it apart sometime to see exactly how it's sealed to prevent water ingress.
Alan
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Thanks again for the reply, Bikemad!
I should have knocked harder. Ok, it sort of works, right after I switch off the power from the battery, it runs for a few seconds /minute, then the sound of the motor changes, it might be on/off for some tmes and eventually stops after 2-3 seconds.
Edit: just came back, now it worked on and off. I got maybe 100-500m just twisting throttle, then off again. Pedaled with regen brake on, until after a minute regen brake activates and I can drive by dc again. Then the same thing over and over.
Outside is 5 degrees, and the motor runs below skin temperature.
I suspect it might be a cable or connector fault, might be a short circuit.
Or the lever. It could be anything really.
There are all sorts of loose cable ends in the system now too, one for the speedometer (coming from motor), one for the lights that you cannot detach that gives full 56V. Seems they don't have effect this time, I removed all the electric tape from the non-connected connectors.
Controller seems ok, responds to usb and behaves logically.
Is the Smart Pie power test the same as with mp3? For me it didn't seem to work.
I'll check the cabling and get back...
I took a good look today on the power cable, it seems very well sealed with epoxy maybe.
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After depressive phase, turning back to manic.
Seems that my current limits were too low, there is some sampling mechanism in the controller probably that checks every now and then, if the current has been too high for some time.
Then it just turns the wheel off.
I had 15A nominal max and 40A peak and 48V.
Now I have set 25A as nominal max and 70A as peak as in factory settings.
It helped but I'm not sure why. My settings were ok until now.
One thing could be that LiFePO4 battery is starting to give out it's full potential after couple of chargings, and currents just went overboard.
For 400W, there shouldn't be such high current though. But peaks were ~650W... Maybe 15A was just too little. if the voltages temporarily decrease, the motor draws more.
Still sounds funny.
Let's still take a brake and see how things go.
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I had 15A nominal max and 40A peak and 48V.
Now I have set 25A as nominal max and 70A as peak as in factory settings.
Try setting it back to the default parameters, my Smart Pie came factory set as follows:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/SmartPiedefaultsetting.JPG)
I'm wondering whether the controller might be cutting out a bit too soon on the 48V setting, in which case it might be worth resetting the Motor Voltage setting to 24V to ensure that the controller's Low Voltage Cut-off will not activate before the battery's.
I have my controllers set to 24V on all three of my Magic Pies and also on the new Smart Pie, and I regularly use different voltage batteries (25.9V, 29.6V and 51.8V LiPo packs) without any problems.
Alan
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Wheel rolled very well on my test bench, no cuts. But in the bike it now cuts noticeably quicker. So it's probably getting too much already. The leds in the handle burn much brighter also :)
Thanks for the tip. That actually was the setting with delivery (24V). I changed it to 48V.
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With 24V setting (and others as above), the problem persists. The motor runs smooth now for 2-5 s after startup. If I power off/power on, nothing.
If I leave power off for 5-10min, then again 2-5s it works.
I'll have to open up the controller I guess...
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Is it a GM battery? Could it be a bad key switch?
Gary
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It is Golden Motor battery. The leds are burning the whole time in the throttle, plus there is a sound from the motor (if you roll the wheel manually and trigger throttle) when the fault appears after start.
It's like the motor is trying to trigger the coils, or part of the strength.
The wheel doesn't move even in the test bench now.
Controller seems to behave logically for the few seconds it works.
I could try to open the controller box, and measure the voltages, but I'd like to hear if you have any other suggestions.
Edit: just opened the battery to check the key switch, it looked ok. 53,3V on key side, 53,4V on charger side (battery not full).
Any test I can do? Hook the battery from charger side? :) Maybe just bypass the keyswitch and solder the connector to the output.
Edit: I brought the whole system indoors for two hours, at first it was malfunctioning like normally, then used hairdryer to blow hot air into the keyhole. Now I can't get this fault to manifest itself anymore again. On the other hand, this happened yesterday too and now there is hardly any load on the motor either. Voltages are quite steady around 52,8 and 53,3V when it runs. No sudden drops, but then again no fault.
This happened yesterday as I took it inside. It's now 5C outside.
I'll take it for a spin now, let's see if something happens... putting some tape on the keyhole to prevent any drops from the road.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
:D :D :D :D :'( :D :D
Thank you guys!!! I just went around the block without any problems. Unbelievable.
It seems there was just some water / vapor in the keyhole?!
Edit: Smart pie seems to be quite well sealed, but perhaps because of my experiment with current settings, the cable seal had vaporized almost completely.
I added some hot glue around the entry hole to keep it better protected.
Maybe the battery lock needs some more protection. I tried to not spray water in it, but apparently something went in. Kinda stupid to keep it there in the first place while washing, but I figured it should be protected from drops of water. Well, turns out it wasn't.
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The only time I have ever had a problem in the rain was the way my bike was parked. It was at an angle which allowed water to enter the front plug. I sat the battery on a floor vent for a few days and it worked fine after that. Since then I use a bike cover to keep the rain and dust off of it. It looks kinda dorky but does a great job.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/BikesAccessories/BicycleAccessories/PRD~0733609P/CCM+Bike+Cover.jsp?locale=en
Gary
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You could make a cover for the battery like I did;
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2320.msg13469#msg13469 (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2320.msg13469#msg13469)
After the pic was taken, I mounted an 10mm eyelet just where the key enters, so I don't have to take off the cover to insert the key...
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Nice battery cover! Too bad I really can't sew. Send me a black one and I'll give you ... how much do you ask for a black cover? Plus postage to finland.
I think the problem was actually the other end of the battery. I just opened it and dried it, a bit of water had gone in. The battery is tilted a bit lower towards rear on my ride, seems water always slides down there.
Also the light wiring caused problems today. Eventually I solved them by taping them individually and aligning them so they dry up.
I was putting hot glue to the battery seam (leaving bottom unglued), but then I ran out of glue :-X.
I used electrical tape instead to squeeze between plastic and aluminium, left the bottom 'open'. So far so good, everything works now.
I washed my bike again today with a plastic bag to cover the handle. No problems, smooth running!
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Story in 5 days:
Slight problems on friday, it was -4C. I came home after week of driving with no problems, recharged (as LiPoFE4 should endure -10C charging afaik) and connected.
After about 500m, the system was completely dead again. Pedalled on about 2km, stopped and went to shop. After I got back, motor was running for 300m and then no power again.
Took the battery indoors for the weekend, opened both sides and dried it. Today evening I tried it again (it's -1C) and everything worked smooth - for a short round of maybe 300m.
During a trip yesterday, again same problem. Maybe got a bit further, motor stopped working shortly after I used regen brake the first time.
Skipped re-charging the battery that evening, decided to try again tomorrow.
Next day: bike worked for maybe 10 meters! Sound of the motor was different, like jittering.
I left battery home, and went without. It's pretty easy to pedal the SmartPie actually, almost didn't notice the difference.
Until motor started to make weird noise and slow me down for few seconds. No battery, but motor is braking every now and then. Cable is tightly squeezed against axle with the metallic strap, so that was not making the sound.
EDIT: Today the motor was slowing me down continuously, if I went more than 9km/h it was really hard to go faster.
Testing
Took the bike indoors for some testing: voltages from battery were 53.3V.
Battery voltage stays constant while twisting the throttle, so I think it can't be the battery this time (if it ever was, need to improve my diagnostics).
Regen brakes don't work at all.
Blow dried connectors for some time, no effect.
Controller software responds ok by USB. Might still be a suspect.
I can't repeat the motor test mentioned in some other thread here, connecting the pins at 12'o clock and next cw, doesn't do anything. Is the pin configuration the same as in Magic Pie III?
Summary
At the moment I have my bike indoors in 20C,
- no controls work or give any indication,
- battery voltage is stable 53,3V when trying to activate controls (not fresh after recharge, but after about 1km ride)
- with or without battery, motor brakes continuously
- no PAS connected
- tested disconnecting all but throttle
- ambient temps +1C today
- battery kept indoors between rides
- bike is stored in dry place when not ridden
Edit: Based on similar symptoms here-> http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4604.0 (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4604.0) , is it safe to say it's the controller?
I thought today that maybe the connectors are flooded within, need to open them also. If water is activating the regen brake, then the throttle wouldn't work and also no power would be taken from battery.
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Hi Mikko,
If you turn the wheel by hand can you feel the braking resistance, and if so, is it jerky or smooth?
It might be worth disconnecting the front harness (and therefore all the controls) from the motor and see if the braking effect is still obvious, as this should rule out any water problems in the front harness connections or faulty brake switches etc.
If the strong braking effect is still evident with the main harness disconnected, then the controller will be the most likely cause, and you will need to contact your supplying dealer and explain the problem to them.
- no controls work or give any indication,
- battery voltage is stable 53,3V when trying to activate controls (not fresh after recharge, but after about 1km ride)
- with or without battery, motor brakes continuously
Are your battery gauge LEDs still lighting up? If not, it would indicate a problem with either the battery, it's BMS, the key switch, power connectors or even a poor connection somewhere in the motor harness.
Where exactly are you measuring the battery voltage, from the charging socket or the main output socket?
Are you able to measure the voltage directly from the cable side of the power connectors underneath the rubber sheath on the power cable?
Alan
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Thanks for the reply, Bikemad!
I was measuring from main output. Leds show full battery.
Turning the wheel there is braking resistance, jerky like magnets.
I opened the controller cover and discovered that there were couple of teaspoons of water rolling around.
The connector that connects power cable and controller was flooded. The no wonder it dried while stopped, took a few turns and got wet again.
With some luck I'm able to get the wheel back from the beyond, seems that it takes these situations quite well. Controller still responds to usb connection at least.
But I'm even more worried about the water that got into the motor itself, via the cables. It's probably got salt in it too. Probably why it seems so stiff to rotate it.
What is your advice, is it enough to open it up clean it and re-apply some bearing vaseline? I will check what happened.
Any suggestions how to re-seal the power/controller cable entrance?
Braking effect is there without battery. This started when I connected the usb last time, hmm...
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Mikko, I would expect a small amount of resistance from the magnets, but if you use a 10mm spanner on the flats of the axle to exert some leverage, the axle should rotate relatively easily.
If it is difficult to turn with the spanner, make a note of which way around the three phase wires are connected and then unplug them from the controller.
If it the axle then becomes easy to turn, the problem will definitely be a failed controller. :(
no wonder it dried while stopped, took a few turns and got wet again.
It's a nice theory, apart from the fact that the controller and the housing does not rotate.
I'm concerned that any water on the surface of the circuit board may have formed an electrical pathway, allowing high voltage to flow between the insulated tracks, subsequently causing damage to some of the more sensitive components.
Any suggestions how to re-seal the power/controller cable entrance?
I would suggest sealing around the cable with some silicone sealant, but this won't be necessary if the controller has already failed.
Alan
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Yes, I have to confess I didn't think about the rotation part (how did I possibly didn't think of this, how stupid!) but still, water might have well gone into connector(s) when accelerating and decelerating.
Mikko, I would expect a small amount of resistance from the magnets, but if you use a 10mm spanner on the flats of the axle to exert some leverage, the axle should rotate relatively easily.
If it is difficult to turn with the spanner, make a note of which way around the three phase wires are connected and then unplug them from the controller.
If it the axle then becomes easy to turn, the problem will definitely be a failed controller. :(
Thanks Alan again, seems that by disconnecting the first two connectors (connectors above the axle, mine are blue, green, yellow - note to self) the wheel rotates easily by twisting the axle with fingers only. When I plug the wires back, braking effect is there again. No battery connected.
Even though the CPU in controller is alive and USB connection works, the controller seems faulty.
In any case, I'm really glad we had this sorted. Hopefully I can get a replacement from China.
Now I need to seal the wire entrances properly so that no water will get in anymore. Thanks for the tip also for this.
I knew there would be some problems building my fist e-bike, but seems the support staff knows their business here. Can't wait to drive my bike again with Smart Pie :)
Will send you photos of the beauty too
BR,
Mikko
P.S. I know I messed up with the USB settings, that might be the cause for water leaking to get too much current. Seal was ok before that.
But there were problems before that also.
- Do you think my warranty is still ok or not? Didn't get any reply yet from China.
One thing is that the controller casing is screwed to the motor with 3 screws, and there is some non-sealed wire entry point behind it. Maybe there could be an O-ring to protect this place if water should enter the controller casing.
P.P.S. there is constant beeping sound from controller when power is on, I can only hear it when controller casing is open and I listen closely
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... the "beep" is not the controller's regular beeping when e.g. programming it but a more quiet, high frequency sound
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As far as I'm aware, there is no audible beeper device fitted on the the Smart Pie's controller
The beeps you hear while programming come from the computer's speaker, not the controller.
The high pitch noise you are hearing is most likely being emitted from one of the solid state voltage regulators which constantly switch the power on and off at a very high frequency to effectively regulate the output voltage for the 5V supply which supplies the hall sensors, throttle and PAS, and a 12V output that the controller uses for switching the MOSFETs.
The USB settings will not have affected the sealing of the cables where they enter the controller.
The hole at the rear of the controller housing (where the phase and hall sensor wires enter from the motor) should not need to be sealed, but if you wish to put some silicone sealant around the wires it shouldn't do any harm.
The water level in the controller housing would need to be pretty high before it would reach the level of the hole and seep into the motor, unless the bike was leaned right over on its side. But don't forget, water should not be inside the controller housing in the first place. ::)
Mikko, it is much better to make a new post rather than add additional comments to an existing post. A new post will cause an automated notification to be emailed to anyone who is subscribed to the original thread, but editing an existing post can easily go unnoticed. ;)
Regarding the warranty, you should send an email to David (wyh@goldenmotor.com) and explain that the controller has stopped working and the wheel is difficult to turn even with the power disconnected, and see what he says.
Alan
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At the moment, I don't use a 'leg' in my bike. So it either leans to something or then ground. But it is quite a special case...
So controller is not beeping, was hard to believe but it's true. Laptop was just sitting too close to really be able to tell without paying enough attention :)
I'll check with David.
Cheers! 8)
-Mikko
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Solved!
Knock knock, I had no problems today riding to work.
I replaced the controller and made a way for condensed water to exit from the bottom of the controller box.
Put some vaseline into the o-ring and the face of the controller and axle, and the cable entry too, to avoid water getting in and dripping onto the controller itself.
Let's see what happens.
Difficult customer but very helpful staff here, thanks!
Best regards,
dBlues
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It's good to hear you've got it going again Mikko, let's hope the new controller lasts a lot longer than the first one.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.gif)
Alan
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Well, my Smart Pie is now water proof (absolutely no marks of water going in the controller) but still today:
I have a broken controller again.
It was almost the symptoms same as before, controller works ok for a while, then it needs some battery switching on/off after 300m of driving.
Difference was that due to my very careful precautions done, it really worked past weeks. Lately it always did stop once after specific distance (within 50m) from start, and required to unplug the battery completely and wait for short while to reconnect. After that, it worked all the way.
I did drive for 34km once in -15C.
You can now blame me for driving in minus degrees as that's what I've clearly been doing, but if you want to continue work on that controller, I can go on and test it more. Maybe you have a new version available.
CONCLUSION
Measurements, notes:
- coil side +/- = 4.65V
- 5 V inputs, hall sensors:
- black/1: 4.3V - 0.01V
- black/2: 4.7V - 0.01V
- black/3: 4.7V - 0.01V
- axle is stiff to rotate, as if braking (familiar from last time, was fixed by replacing controller)
- all capacitors get slightly warm
- no water (no rust, dry everywhere)
- broken after power switch on, one hard stutter at switching and then nothing
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I have put my replacement controller in a dark draw and installed a 3rd party controller on my bike. I believe this is the best way to protect the GM controller. I try to avoid opening the draw and look at the GM controller in fear that if you look at it too much it will break.
I have to give GM some credit, their service is actually very good. It can be hard to get in dialog with them, but when you do they are very helping and sent me a new controller complete cables, screws and heatsink. All plug and play. I also got very good help diagnosing on my first break down.
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Ok, thanks for the tip... I think you might be referring to Lyen controller?
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Ok, thanks for the tip... I think you might be referring to Lyen controller?
I think most external controllers are going to be more reliable than the internal one, but that is just my opinion. I bought the Lyen controller. The controller from em3ev.com is exactly the same. Kelly controllers are also know to be very good. I have heard good things about the external GM controllers too, but only on this site.
Modifying the motor to accept external controller isn't very hard if you know how to use a soldering iron and/or a crimping tool. The biggest disadvantage with an external controller is that you need to find a place to mount it and the amount of cables more or less doubles.
You can check for shorts on the mosfets as that could explain a couple of your symptoms.
EDIT: I hade to strike through one of my sentences after seeing this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4513.0)
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Roger mate... yup, soldering is not hard, just got to remember not to put your sandwich anywhere near your soldering station...
Thanks, I think I'll get a Lyen one too.