GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: o00scorpion00o on September 14, 2011, 06:47:04 PM
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Al right Chaps,
I fried the halls in my mac, poor thing. I did a stupid thing by plugging the halls into the cycle analyst plug of the controller! oops! ::)
How did I do that? well I like jst sm connectors and the only one I had left for the mac was a 6 pin and of course the cycle analyst is 6 pin so ......
I won't make that mistake again as I have a 5 pin jst for the mac now! ;)
Anyway my friend Pat kindly allowed me to have a loan of my old pie (he now has a mac) so I decided to test it on 16S lipo that's 66.4 hot off the charger and around 60 volts nominal!
33 mph on an infineon with 120% speed setting. 40 amp battery and 70 amp phase, it flies and has tonnes of torque. Running 2kw up a steap hill for a few miles full throttle 2kw constant the phase wires were cool (12G alfa eco wire ) and the motor was barely warm at 28-30 mph up the hill.
I'm confident the motor will take 5kw constant and 7kw or more peak, but that would probably break your bike frame :o
Think of it like this 16S will do 33 mph on flat hot off charger that's 3kw peak on acceleration and around 1200-1500 watts on flat to maintain 32 mph.
So 21S LiPO, 87.15 volts would do around 40+ mph that at 40 amps battery would be 3100 and around 4.6kw peak, that's about 6hp peak! ;D
I really think 33mph is more than fast enough, however I might test with higher battery and phase current for faster acceleration, it will lift the front wheel as it is if I'm not careful, another setting to play with is block time which allows max phase current to be pulled for a set time 1+ seconds, usually set to 1 second default.
The pie is a fun motor!
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hi Mark
I did a short run hot of the charger with 84V last year on a lyen, got 44+, but it scared the crap out of me.....short lived, about 10 seconds peak
p.s. just about to start with my new 12S5P lipo,, just working out a nice config for wiring... ( 20 X 3S1P packs), let you know how I get on :)
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Hi Ginge,
I hope you are well?
Going 40 on a push bike is scary and fun, kind of a buzz lol
I always said 20 is fast enough, then 30, now 40, but I really should stop at that.
It's amazing how the extra voltage makes the pie more efficient for hill climbing, obviously you consume more going faster on the flat. The lower voltage battery going up hill means it bogs down and it pulls more amps, so that means more inefficiency up hill because the motor needs to spin fast to be efficient, that's how the geared hubs do so well. I'm amazed GM doesn't have a high power geared hub like the mac. I know gears are an issue, but mac seemed to have solved that!
Basically the pie goes up the same hill around the same speed as the mac consuming around the same watts, only difference the mac can do it on 12S where you need 16S for the pie, meaning the mac is a lot more efficient.......or is it? not necessarily, both motors consume around the same up the hill meaning they are around the same, the pie just needs more voltage to spin faster, to be more efficient!
How are you getting on with the mac? 12S is sure nice on the mac, if that's the motor you intend to use it with? you going to have 30 ah? not bad!
By the way check out this post
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30021
Gary seems to be on to something with this new bms, it would make life very easy for you with 12S, I would nearly go back from 16S to 12 just for the easiness of being able to plug lipo in so easy to charge, but 16S is addictive on the mac lol
Mark
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Jesus mark, this stuff is deadly....ive just never seen 3.7V cell output that much oomph...
So ginger does the experimental wiring......so far lost 2 connectors and a charger...and I don't mean just dead, I mean blown apart like TNT was used......luckily I was drunk so not affected by fright...but hell...
New connectors in place, new fuses in place./...battery continuous rated at 300A, peak at 450A, 50 volt 15ah....think thats ready for tomorrows maiden test :)
I aint been this scared since meeting my first girlfriends parents :o
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you know what, the mac and the pie are both strong in their different areas.....i love the fact that I can push the pie to whatever KW I like, go cross country. go any weather I like...but the mac is also a cyclists motor.....spare parts on demand, great customer service......
MAC = Euro BMW M3......refined tech
PIE = USA muscle car....all metal and oomph...
Which is better........well put it this way. im prepping my pie for this winter. ( remember all, I called it early at being a bad winter)....mac is the summer motor
:)
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Jesus mark, this stuff is deadly....ive just never seen 3.7V cell output that much oomph...
So ginger does the experimental wiring......so far lost 2 connectors and a charger...and I don't mean just dead, I mean blown apart like TNT was used......luckily I was drunk so not affected by fright...but hell...
New connectors in place, new fuses in place./...battery continuous rated at 300A, peak at 450A, 50 volt 15ah....think thats ready for tomorrows maiden test :)
I aint been this scared since meeting my first girlfriends parents :o
LMAO, you're a funny chap ginge! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Defiantly keep away from the alcohol when configuring LiPo for charging and discharging!
I blew apart a connector from a short, oops. But luckily I know the 30 amp andersons act like a fuse and will destroy themselves before the battery explodes, so that's one thing to take into account.
The 30 amp Andersons are more than enough for connecting these packs for E-Bike use, they only use a tiny fraction of the current these packs are capable of and a lot less than the more expensive 90C Turnigy's for instance!
My connectors don't even get warm, and one of the important things is to not stick the connectors together, their current rating halfs, byt he way it saves me connecting fuses in line with each battery, I have a 60 amp fuse on the output though!
But yeah LiPo is good stuff just remember to keep them charged to 4.15 and discharge to not much less than 3.5V supposed to do wonders for life!
By the way what kind of charger do you use? I use an Icharger, but I just bought a charger that's supposed to charge to 66.4 volts, that's if they set it correctly. But the trick is to leave a good 2 amps or more in the pack that going more makes the cells go out of balance and makes bulk charging not so easy!
So the plan is to ride and charge up after 2-5 amp hrs of use without having to split the pack up!
Mark
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you know what, the mac and the pie are both strong in their different areas.....i love the fact that I can push the pie to whatever KW I like, go cross country. go any weather I like...but the mac is also a cyclists motor.....spare parts on demand, great customer service......
MAC = Euro BMW M3......refined tech
PIE = USA muscle car....all metal and oomph...
Which is better........well put it this way. im prepping my pie for this winter. ( remember all, I called it early at being a bad winter)....mac is the summer motor
:)
Ha yeah, I do agree, each motor has it's advantages but the mac really made me fit and I lost 20 kgs because I could pedal it so much more easier than the Pie, but I still love the pie especially on 16S LiPo, 32 mph max, I will try 18-20 S someday.
The plan is eventually buy a good second hand downhill bike, I just wish I could afford a bomber from stealthbikes!
Yes winter 2011-12 is supposed to be as cold or colder in parts like last year and I got to say I never came across a duller cooler summer in all my life!
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well I plan to use the turnigy x5....as my packs are 3s, I can charge 4 at the same time through the balance wires.....well I mean I plan to once the replacement comes lol...blown to crap...will have to figure out a way to change the top chargejk to 4.15....
i split my pack into 5, so that if one pack goes up, its not going to tear through the rest, and a 20amp fuse on each pack, so hopefully that should keep me safe :)
nice and pokey, but did seem to drop votlage quicker than I expected, but that could be me being used to a different discharge curve
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The Icharger is a good charger and you can set the charge voltage easily!
You do need a 24 volt power supply though, I could only afford the 15 volt for now so I can charge at only 15 amps.
It charges the 4x 6s 5ah zippy's in about 1hr 20 mins, then I have to charge the 2x 4S separately which is a pain, so I ordered a 66.4 volt 400 watt charger for bulk charging which shouldn't be an issue if the cells are fairly balanced.
It will be very useful to put back 6 ah or less, and by doing that the cells should stay well balanced by not running the cells too low, that's when they get imbalanced!
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Oh wow, pulled my first 12 Ah from the lipo....nice :)
What charger are you using for bulk charging the lipo...
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I haven't bulk charged yet, still waiting from bmsbattery. You have to tell them the exact voltage to set. It's the emc-400 charger.
400 watts should be plenty to charge on the go and still be small enough to carry around if I need to.
I ordered one from evassemble a few weeks ago and it didn't work, so whatever you do, stay away from them, I heard bad things about them, but bmsbattery seems to be a good company to deal with!
By the way Ginge, what charger are you using? I don't believe you said.
When you said the voltage dropped, do you mean from hot off the charger or in general?
I long for the day the batteries hold 4 or 5 times the charge, all they seem to be interested in doing is increasing cycle life, but I'd rather carry a 60 volt 50ah battery that weighs the same as my 10ah. Somehow I think by the time my Lipo is dead in 2 years maybe 3 that I'll get at least twice the Ah!
Mark
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Hi Mate
I have used many chargers from BMSBattery, and have an EMC400 beside me right now.......really good chargers......have had 3 with no problems.. also have an EMC 600.....really great on lithium batteries...gonna have to open this puppy up and do some adjustment :)
Doesnt lipo and lithium ion have a slightly different charge profile ?
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Hi Mate
I have used many chargers from BMSBattery, and have an EMC400 beside me right now.......really good chargers......have had 3 with no problems.. also have an EMC 600.....really great on lithium batteries...gonna have to open this puppy up and do some adjustment :)
Doesnt lipo and lithium ion have a slightly different charge profile ?
I think it's fine to charge the LiPo with a Li- Ion charger, they are all cc/cv and once it's set for 4.15 volts x cell No you should be fine.
I requested mine to be set for 66.4 volts for 16S LiPo charging to 4.15 per cell.
It's good to know the chargers work from bmsbattery, just be careful you don't exceed the capacitors max rating, that's the mistake I made on the evessemble charger, they gave me the wrong one altogether it was not capable of more than about 60 volts, I adjusted and blew a cap, it was rated 63 volts. I should have checked, but I didn't think they would be that bad to send me a charger not even capable of the voltage required, it was bad enough the sent it to me dead!
It's a 600 watt charger and all. I may repair it some day, but I don't know how to set the current settings. so might use it for spares!
Remember though charge only a well balanced pack and keep an eye on it while charging, the cell logs are very handy. just one cell over charged and major fireball !
Check out this link
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30021
Gary is creating a bms for 12S LiPO for now, he may increase the cell capability later. But it will look after the charging and discharging. The beauty of it is it only has one fet for the charging and 0 fet's on the discharge meaning no limit on discharging. And uses throttle limiting if a cell reaches too low a voltage rather than trip the whole pack. It will get you home at reduced power. Hopefully it works well.
It is simple and should be reliable, that's what's missing for LiPo is a good reliable bms!
Mark
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yup set my emc 600 to 49 colts, 6 amps as an initial experiment....i can always finish them off tonight with my accucel 6...
I decided to go with turnigy x5's for work, and I might bulk charge with the emc for home.......
3 adjustables on the board, 1 for high voltage, 1 for amp charge, I guess the 3rd is cut off amps.....
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Ginge me old pal, ;D
Would ye be ever so kind as to open the charger and take a pic and show me which one is which? ;D
I find it impossible to adjust these chargers as I don't know how to make them come on without a battery connected!
Thanks Ginge,
Mark
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funny you say that....after I did it, I thought..hmmm, surely someone on endless sphere has done this before...
voila
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13571&hilit=adjust+king+charger
I set my charger to 49.8 ( I connect a turnigy watt meter to it, and it shows the "storage voltage" when a battery is not connected...dropped my ampage ( as half the pack was charged and disconnected, otherwise I would have 10-11 amps on a 6ah pack ( im going 1C charge only)... you can adjust both, as long as the calculation is not greater than the watt rating of the charger...
What an amazing charger, I have both the emc400 and emc 600, both have been solid as a rock ( after I glued the fan on one back together after shipping from china......
charged a treat...thought I was going to be up all night with my emergency backup accucel 6....
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Yep I saw that and posted there but got no joy.
Though some of the chargers are different internally, I ordered the 400 watt so I don't know if it will be like in the pic!
Anyway I just hope they have the correct charging voltage on this one!
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wel the EMC 600 looks like the first piccie, and ill confirm the EMC 400 today :)
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Cheers mate! :)
I'm checking the bmsbattery site now, they are slow in sending it out!
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I thought I should post here considering you guys are hogging all of the topic bandwidth ;)
haha
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Hey Monkey,
How are you ?
How's the spacebike coming along ? you haven't ridden back kin time yet ? ;D
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Hey monkey, has mark mentioned Lipo :)
Mark, couldnt adjust my emc400 below 52.3....sho hopefully it should have a lot of higher end adjustment
layout is different, ill try and get you a piccie :)
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LiPo LiPo ;D
Yeah just check what yourcaps are rated for and that will be a good indication!
By the way do you adjust while your battery is connected? I still haven't figured how you would adjust without the battery connected ?
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Hey Monkey,
How are you ?
How's the spacebike coming along ? you haven't ridden back kin time yet ? ;D
I seriously ask you to stock well up on your favourite lotion.... You will need copius amounts when I release my final pics haha
If I put the work in stages, I would be upto somewhere around stage 132 out of 138 or something rediculous like that.
Remember this all started when I went searching for a visor for my LCD screen, and it kinda snowballed since then.... I really like the outcome now though its one awesome unique looking bike
Maybe by this weekend??? I really hope the weather is tops down here ATM
Hey monkey, has mark mentioned Lipo :)
Lol don't start :D hehehe I'll squeeze the use out of my GM packs then I might take a trip to Kelly town bypassing Lipoville on the way.... I have a dream lol
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Hey Monkey,
How are you ?
How's the spacebike coming along ? you haven't ridden back kin time yet ? ;D
I seriously ask you to stock well up on your favourite lotion.... You will need copius amounts when I release my final pics haha
If I put the work in stages, I would be upto somewhere around stage 132 out of 138 or something rediculous like that.
Remember this all started when I went searching for a visor for my LCD screen, and it kinda snowballed since then.... I really like the outcome now though its one awesome unique looking bike
Maybe by this weekend??? I really hope the weather is tops down here ATM
Hey monkey, has mark mentioned Lipo :)
Lol don't start :D hehehe I'll squeeze the use out of my GM packs then I might take a trip to Kelly town bypassing Lipoville on the way.... I have a dream lol
Jesus Monkey, what are you riding around on now, it seems like you will never be riding the dual pie ?
I think Monkey and LiPo are a recipe for major injury ? ;D you are too crazy Monkey for LiPo but you will love the stuff even if it's only lasts half as much, it costs a lot less though so balances out and I'd rather have a much lighter pack any day over twice the cycle life.
If you can get over the charging and discharging without a bms then you are sorted!
Anyway looking forward to seeing the finished Monkey machine ;D
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Jesus Monkey, what are you riding around on now, it seems like you will never be riding the dual pie ?
Behind the scenes I actually have several ebikes, scooters etc. so I've been making do on those but I really miss riding this thing. I've been working on it on and off, since I've tested every part as I install it I've also come across a few problems but am glad because I've solved them all during the build.
I won't bump this post with my junk but I'll update my post sometime soon enough.
Alan will laugh because now I've lost the XD adapter for my Olympus camera (last time it was the charger) so now I have full power, but no way to transfer my pictures to the PC haahaa
I have seriously considering buying a new camera to save me the hassle
If you saw my electronics "lab" workshop then you would understand where I'm coming from haha
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yes Monkie I can just imagine your workshop! ::) ;D
I wish I had somewhere to work apart from the kitchen table lol
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mark, im liking the lipo....
I love the way that there is virtually no voltage drop on it, and the EMC600 charger is working a treat......49.5 bulk charge:)
25 miles at average 20MPH....no pedalling....with 12ah of a 15ah pack used ( altough im expanding this to 18ah for more cycle life)
I also have rigged it to 3 ah packs, so I can carrry only the batteries I need ...1KG per 3aH, each pack being capable of continuous of 60 amps continuous output, 90 amp peak .......
cost in UK, abot £25per ah depending on source
and to be honest, as i, webby and andrew have been on no bms for about a year now, cant see any real issues there....:)
( its still not coming in the house)
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mark, im liking the lipo....
I love the way that there is virtually no voltage drop on it, and the EMC600 charger is working a treat......49.5 bulk charge:)
25 miles at average 20MPH....no pedalling....with 12ah of a 15ah pack used ( altough im expanding this to 18ah for more cycle life)
I also have rigged it to 3 ah packs, so I can carrry only the batteries I need ...1KG per 3aH, each pack being capable of continuous of 60 amps continuous output, 90 amp peak .......
cost in UK, abot £25per ah depending on source
and to be honest, as i, webby and andrew have been on no bms for about a year now, cant see any real issues there....:)
( its still not coming in the house)
Yeah LiPo is good stuff al right, and to be honest a bms is fine but it adds another 100 Euro or so to the battery and they have been well known to fail and a bms failure on LiPo is as we all know very dangerous!
Hopefully Gary over at ES gets his LiPo bms running soon so it can be tested, but so far it looks very promising and is good for 12S. So not good for me now but I'm sure he will make different bms's in the future!
Once you leave a few ah in your pack the cells should stay balanced and charging to 4.15 per cell and not going much below 3.5 should give you very good life, so I'm told anyway lol
A lot of people talk about LiFeP04 as been a wonderful battery, it has it's advantages, safety being one, bms being 2 and ease of charging being 3. However for me the most important thing is C rate and lightness 2 things where the LiPo wins hands down over LiFeP04, sure you could buy A123 cells, but they are stupidly expensive where I can build 16S 10ah LiPo for about 240 Euros from HK.
Another thing is cycle life where you get about twice the life over LiPo, however considering the cost of my LiPo is about half that of a good A123 pack, it doesn't really matter to me because again, the LiPo is a lot lighter and more compact, with care LiPo can go for 600 or more cycles anyway!
I'm looking forward to my charger but they are taking their time sending it out it's still in "checking"phase! It would be nice to be able just to replace 3-5 ah without splitting all the packs up!
HAHA Ginge my LiPo is sitting on the kitchen table as we speak, ;D I'll charge her up in the morning before I go for my ride, I've only used around 2ah but it's only a 10ah pack so I want to make sure I have as much capacity and besides, it will help with cycle life too by charging it up early!
I long for the day I can afford to move in to some place bigger with space for a good shed, and a shed that has power in it. It would be nice to be able to do all my work in the shed and not in the kitchen. My mac is in bits on the kitchen floor while I'm waiting for my new halls to arrive. My girlfriend is very understanding, then again, she doesn't spend much time in the kitchen anyway lol!
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bmsbattery can take about 3-4 weeks to ship....sorry to bear the bad news
Pack upgraded today to 18ah ( going to need it for the electric jumper :) )
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Hi Ginge,
Yeah I thought it might take a while alright. I'm looking forward to being able to top up without having to go through all the hassel of pack splitting!
You're making a jumper? cool. Have you got the bike already?
You may create a new thread and show us!
I want to build a good dh but funds are 0 atm! :'(
By the way check out the greyborg frame over on ES, they are making new modifications to the bike soon and would be well worth a look.
Plenty of room for batteries in the frame!
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Hey ginge,
I lost the freewheel of my mac today, I must not have assembled it right after replacing the halls.
I was going up my friends driveway up a hill and hit full throttle and heard a loud crack, I could feel it in the bike!
I did have a hard time getting the cover back on and gave it a bit of incentive ::) but I'll check it out tomorrow or maybe Wednesday!
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two failures of the mac / bmc design are melted wires inthe axle, and clutch failures....when I ordered mine, got spare clutch and gears for $45....cellman has spares......apparently the infine0n controllers give the clutch hell