GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Pedicab on August 05, 2011, 11:09:54 PM
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Hi Guys,
I am new on this forum. I need to resolve a problem and I would be very grateful if you could help.
My question is;
What do I need to do to be able to start the Magic Pie motors with pedelec then be able to carry on with throttle!
The rider must start the engine by pedalling and once the engine starts working than the rider should be able to start using the throttle, While the throttle is used the rider should not need to pedal anymore.
So it must start with pedelec but later it should be swapped to throttle!
The main point here is that the rider should not be able to use the throttle to start the engine! The engine should only start by peddaling! the throttle should only be able to used while the vehicle is on the move! We do not want rider to start the engine with throttle.
Can we install such function on Magic Pies? If we can install such function could you please tell me what do we need to do?
Any help is much appreciated.
Pedicab
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Hi Pedicab and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to the forum.
My Magic Pie was working just as you describe before I replaced the faulty hall sensors, so disabling the hall sensors might be the easiest way to achieve the operation mode that you desire.
It depends on which motor and controller you have, if it's an external cruise controller (and a direct drive motor) you should be able to unplug the hall sensor and pedelec connectors and simply run it in sensorless mode. This should prevent the throttle from working when stationary, but allow it to work correctly once the vehicle is moving.
Unfortunately, if it's a minimotor, it can't be done this way.
A Magic Pie with internal controller would require dismantling to access the controller and disconnect the red +5V wire going to the hall sensors.
Hope this helps.
Alan
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Hi Bikemad,
My engines are with the internal controller. So I will dismantle one engine and disconnect the red wire and let you know the result.
Thank you for the advise.
Regards
Pedicab
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Hi Joseph,
It might be a stupid question but I just wanted to be sure before I do something silly.
I just attached a picture and I will disconnet the red cable which is situated on the very left (yellow, green, blue, black and red) ? Is that correct?
Regards
Pedicab
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Who's Joseph?
Anyway, I've given this matter some more thought, and perhaps it might be better to unsolder all five leads and completely isolate the hall sensors while your in there as it will literally only take a few seconds.
I would tape and tiewrap the wires securely out of harms way, so they can easily be put back at a later date if required.
Please let us know if it works exactly as you want it to.
Alan
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Hi Bikemad,
I am really sorry for the name. I was just so busy with this problem. Please accept my apologies.
Bike Mad, I am really illiterate on this matter therefore, what I ask might sound very simple;
Are you trying to say that I should disconnect all yellow, green, blue, black and red cables ?
Bill
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Hi Bill,
Yes, unsolder the five thin yellow, green, blue, black and red cables shown on the lower left side of the controller in your picture.
The reason I say unsolder rather than simply cut/snip them is to ensure they remain the same length for easy reconnection if required.
Hope that makes sense.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
I disconnected the red cable and the throttle was still functioning but the engine was kind of shaking and struggling to operate. Now I will disconnect the rest of the cables and update the thread
Bill
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Hi Alan,
I disconnected all 5 cables. It still works very well. Any other suggestion? Shell I remove the sensors completly?
Bill
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Bill, there is no need to remove the sensors. If they are electrically disconnected, they will not be affecting the operation of the controller or motor in any way whatsoever.
I'm very surprised that the motor starts on the throttle without moving the wheel first, I can only assume that it is possibly a modification incorporated into later controllers to improve sensorless operation.
Unfortunately, if this is the case, I cannot see another easy solution to achieve your required mode of operation.
I wish my controller had worked normally with failed sensors, then I would not have had to replace them. :D
Alan
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Hi All
If you change the pedelec sensor to a voltage out type, then feed this voltage into a relay or NPN transistor, you could use the pedelec to enable or disable the throttle.....however you would need to pedal all the time, another possible avenue ?
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however you would need to pedal all the time, another possible avenue ?
Not trying to step on ya feet Gingey but you could do it as simply as using a 555 timer via a monostable circuit. Change the timing resistor to a Pot and whammo you have adjustable triggered throttle
See here (http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/555timer.htm#monostable)
(http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/images/555mono.gif)
5v throttle feed (or throttle signal) triggered through the 555 wired in-line
I'd go down that track if anything. The above link has all the info you need, and cost is like $1 or something lol bargain
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If you change the pedelec sensor to a voltage out type, then feed this voltage into a relay or NPN transistor, you could use the pedelec to enable or disable the throttle.....however you would need to pedal all the time, another possible avenue ?
Perhaps the sensor could be mounted on the wheel's axle or the frame itself and magnets fitted on the ends of the disc rotor fixing screws?
But how fast would the wheel rpm need to be to trigger the relay, as I have visions of the power being cut off when you slow up on hills etc., which is where you'd really need it the most. :o
You could do it as simply as using a 555 timer via a monostable circuit. Change the timing resistor to a Pot and whammo you have adjustable triggered throttle
See here (http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/555timer.htm#monostable)
(http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/images/555mono.gif)
5v throttle feed (or throttle signal) triggered through the 555 wired in-line
You would have to switch the throttle signal wire, because switching off the 5v supply would cause the throttle failure mode to cut in, allowing half power from the cruise button while stationary.
Would you use a reed switch and magnets (like cycle computers) or simply tap in to the output from one of the hall sensors?
If the wheel was stopped, with the magnet next to the reed switch/hall sensor, would the continuous signal allow the throttle to work?
If so, it might need to be a coil and magnets, rather than a magnetic switch, so that signal pulses would only be generated while the wheel was actually moving.
Does this circuit look OK to you Monkey?
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Throttlecutoff.JPG)
Alan
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You would have to switch the throttle signal wire, because switching off the 5v supply would cause the throttle failure mode to cut in, allowing half power from the cruise button while stationary.
Hey true... Could we do a 10K (or 12) always connected to throttle to allow minimal signal, and have this circuit bypass it?
I guess its same-same but different! :D You could still switch to bypass both ways so thats good.
Your circuit is perfect, but I don't think you need the relay there. I was thinking you would just have the 555 timer output go directly to the throttle power feed. This would bypass the 10K resistor for minimal throttle signal.
Pedicab sent in a PM - he wants to only have the pedelec activate the throttle, for as long as the battery lasts. So the only way to "switch off" (disable) the throttle is to reset power. He wants the rider to only take off pedalling. Thats pretty much the gist :D
You can make the trigger last heaps longer than 10 minutes but I never timed it, I'll have to knock something up in the next few days I've got some 555's around I can get something sorted.
Would you use a reed switch and magnets (like cycle computers) or simply tap in to the output from one of the hall sensors?
I don't have pedelec connected on my rides, but does it just pull 5v+ to gnd? If so, that would still be able to use as the trigger.
Each time the trigger is enabled, it will switch the output for the given discharge time. If you keep triggering the timer ie: pedalling there is no 'buffer' it will only re-trigger once the timer has finished and it will self reset. But if the tigger is held in, ie: pedalling constantly it will continue to enable the throttle
If the wheel was stopped, with the magnet next to the reed switch/hall sensor, would the continuous signal allow the throttle to work?
If so, it might need to be a coil and magnets, rather than a magnetic switch, so that signal pulses would only be generated while the wheel was actually moving.
Hmmm I think I'd answer this better if I knew what the GM pedelec output was... Let me know, but I was pretty sure it pulled 5v+ to gnd, but let me know?
Also - read the notes about 'edge triggering' in the web link
If you use that amendment, then the throttle will not be enable unless there is a change in the signal ie: pedalling
And that's a good point, because if it was using the circuit as you posted - when the pedal was in the GND state, it would automatically trigger the timer. Haha imagine testing that one without the wheels off the ground :O
Does this circuit look OK to you Monkey?
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Throttlecutoff.JPG)
Yes perfect, but you would slip a 1K or higher in series with the pot (VR1) probably 10K even depending on the time you need for the pulse trigger output. What timing were you thinking? I'll hunt for some 555's tomorrow.
Would need to test it in case having the trigger on, from the pedal location (or wheel if using a wheel sensor) auto enables that output. I'd have to test that edge-triggering to made sure if the pedal location would auto-trigger, hopefully the trigger will float until the signal changes ie: pedalling.....
The shortest I've ever made it trigger was about 40ms, and that was with fixed values. I think we might have been thinking about 2 different things? - I was thinking of a circuit to enable the throttle a given period based on the pedelec sensor
But I like your thinking, that way you could adjust the power of pedelec and the duration. You would just have to remember to switch your power on the bike or not move the pedals until you are properly seated ;) but we could do a delay timer for that lol
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Hi Pedicab
this maybe usefull !
quote
The main point here is that the rider should not be able to use the throttle to start the engine! The engine should only start by peddaling! the throttle should only be able to used while the vehicle is on the move! We do not want rider to start the engine with throttle.
you can use PAS then hit cruise button (i have personally tried this today )(if you are in the slowest gear )
Or use 2 the same PAS and double up! (they have extra holes for more magnets ) on magnets fool controler you are going faster .(then hit cruise )
Or if external controler you could change power wires round put your controler in Computor soft ware program for PAS in reverse ...get on pedicab pedal backwards (in other words do show ) and the motor will take you forwards !!!
Regarding Laws many motor from GM have no voltage or wattage on them or it is not to difficult to take them off and put lower levels stamped on them ...are you an expert on motors ? are the police ? they can all read (because they like quoting laws ar us !)
Hope someone finds this an interesting concept !
The weight of 350 watt motor is nearly the same as 1000 watt motor !
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hi pedicab....thanks for the email, sorry been busy today
well this post should keep you learning for the next 6 months, like when we all started....where are you based ?
thats the great thing about this forum, you got Bikemad and Monkey and a wealth of others to push that snowball down the hill :)
and as always, someone has to do it.....ditch the throttle, aim for home,and get one of these ( red light incompatible)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97rSobuKBxI
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I was thinking that a simple brake latch circuit would work.
Every time the wheel rotates it pulses a switch that
charges a capacitor.
As long as the wheel is spinning the capacitor stays charged.
The relay would drain it, but if the wheel is spinning it would
charge faster than it drains.
The charged capacitor holds a relay on.
The normally closed relay is connected to the brake
switch (parallel so the brake switch works too.)
The down side to the whole thing is that it will drain the battery
while running.
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and as always, someone has to do it.....ditch the throttle, aim for home,and get one of these ( red light incompatible)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97rSobuKBxI
Why not try one of these ;) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9QedZlRwvc)
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Hi Guys,
Thank you very much to all of you. I am really glad lucky to find this wonderful online community. Again I would like to thank you all for taking time to provide answer to my question.
I am based in the UK but the motors are used in Netherlands. Do you know anyone who can help me with carrying out the work of one of these solutions in the UK or Netherlands? At least showing how to do one of them so I can replicate on the rest of the motors?
Thank you in advance
Bill
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Hi Bill
Im in the UK in the southeast ( windsor), but unfortunately doing diy at the mo, so busy for a2-3 weeks at least....whereabout in the uk are you? ....some of our other users may be able to help if your local;
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Hi Bill
Im in the UK in the southeast ( windsor), but unfortunately doing diy at the mo, so busy for a2-3 weeks at least....whereabout in the uk are you? ....some of our other users may be able to help if your local;
I live in west London. Well if I can not find any other option, I can wait until your hands are free, as long as you are willing to help
Pedicab
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Tell you what, what is it you are trying to achieve with the system, is it for safety or something else in mind ?