GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Just on May 10, 2011, 02:37:19 AM
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Hello Guys,
I need you share your experience on the hills and uplands climbing with a single and dual 48V Magic Pie motors.
How is the MagicPie powerful on the hills?
Actually the price of the double MagicPie motors (total 2KW) is about the same as a single mid motor (1.2KW), which can use the bicycle's gears.
What configuration might be more powerful? Is a single 48V MagicPie motor not enough for the uplands?
Any opinion / experience are welcome.
Thank you
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My rear 48V Pie (with stock controller) will do 40kph on the flat and about
10kph Edit: to say that I tested it last night and it dod about 20kph on This hill: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=leichhardt&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=21.438269,77.34375&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Leichhardt+New+South+Wales&ll=-33.880321,151.147842&spn=0,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-33.88026,151.147685&panoid=Q3Wp6KR5BDdPs2TIBDizuQ&cbp=12,91.1,,0,2.4 (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=leichhardt&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=21.438269,77.34375&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Leichhardt+New+South+Wales&ll=-33.880321,151.147842&spn=0,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-33.88026,151.147685&panoid=Q3Wp6KR5BDdPs2TIBDizuQ&cbp=12,91.1,,0,2.4)
...This is a lot steeper than it looks. (I'm a princly 100kgs :-*)
In order to get more torque (speed up hills) then you need to pump more amps into it - which means getting a higher rated controller.
In order to get just more speed then you need to pump more voltage into it.
The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX.
Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing & acceleration is a breeze but you will need the batteries to match (typically a 12AH rated at 3C will give 12*3 = 36A max output
Hooked up to the MP and high rated AMP controller (>30A) it will climb most hills that cars can go up - and at a decent speed. Also, this will have great acceleration on the flat too.
Just remember to fit Torque arms if you go down this high amperage route.
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Magzy that hill looks like a killer !!!
Dunno it looks like 20+ degrees, wouldn't wanna pedal that !!
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I'ts a killer alright but not as bad as this hill however:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=annandale&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=62.018529,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Annandale+New+South+Wales&ll=-33.874433,151.166025&spn=0.00181,0.002411&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=-33.874539,151.166011&panoid=8KvJjBrOqkp1knbBNhfQ-w&cbp=12,100.9,,0,8.29
I will manage to do just ~2-3kph Edit: to say that I tested it last night and it did about ~10kph up this beast - It gets up though without pedaling - it's about 100m long
(48v ~16A stock GM controller 130kg rider & bike)
I've taken a shot whereby you can calculate the angle of the post and the pavement.
I've pedaled it wthout a motor attached before and you have to zig zag up it in the lowest gear.
The MP will strightline it up about 10X faster than what I could ever pedal up it without getting tired..
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Actually the price of the double MagicPie motors (total 2KW) is about the same as a single mid motor (1.2KW), which can use the bicycle's gears.
What configuration might be more powerful?
Thank you
I'm assuming that you meant the mid motor ones from cyclone in Taiwan? http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-A.htm
I too looked at these before buying the MP but the lack of technical information for the motopr, controller and the battery on the website put me right off.
They make a very loud noise as well and that was the dealbreaker for me.
No pictures of the battery you get with the kit so I couldn't see how it would fit on the bike.
Also, there would be a tendency to snap the chain or the derailer if too much power goes into it but on the good side I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears.
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Lol Magzy I bought and very near added my cyclone motor to my dual drive haha for acceleration
The geared 1200W will munch that hill no problems through the gears but yes it will be loud and if you treat the motor anything but too nice you will first blow the controller, then probly eat the plastic internal gears.
So I'm leaving my cyclone for another project.... I'm thinking 28" dual mini + cyclone drive for a triple brushless geared setup haha
Through a 3 speed should yield around 80km/h with performance throughout the speed range
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Magzy,
you have wrote: "I'm assuming that you meant the mid motor ones from cyclone in Taiwan?" -the answer is YES.
you wrote: "I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears" - what exactly Nuvinci hub gear do you use? Why does it work better? What about just hub transmissions?
My guess that double MP 48V 1000V motors will have the same power as one 1200W 48V cyclone motor. But it's only a guess... But two MP motors weigh 15kg and the cyclone one is only 2.5kg... Yes, it need a high-end battery for acceleration (in peaks the motor takes up to 60A).
you wrote: "The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX." - the Magic (Cruise) Controller from GM is programmable and gives up to 30A in continuous current and up to 50A in peaks. Am I wrong?
you wrote: "Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing" - what controller is recommended? Would you put a link to it here?
Thank you
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MonkeyMagic,
Since you have two motor type, would you please compare them? Let's say a dual drive GM MPII and a single 1200W motor from Cyclone.
Let's say here are what to compare:
1) climbing abilities
2) maximum speed (Cyclone declare 70kmh while GM only 45kmh ...)
3) etc
Is the Cyclone motor loudly on the flat surface as well?
you wrote: "I'm thinking 28" dual mini + cyclone drive for a triple brushless geared setup" - what's "mini"? "triple brushless geared" - will you use the Cyclone motor with double GM MPII motors?
"Through a 3 speed should yield around 80km/h with performance throughout the speed range" - what motor(s) will maintain this speed? Will it be the Cyclone motor?
Thank you
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ok ill fill you in on the mystery
The MagicPie 100% is better. Full stop.
I'm surprised the cyclone is not loud when its off. Check some videos on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O1hzKQNgME
It sounds like a big drill, like other geared/chain motors... It will be loud on any surface even a cloud haha
Sorry my english is Australian, although its proper English in most ways it tends to turn to slang coming from us ;)
Mini = GM mini motors (freewheel motors you have posted about)
They have gears, so does the cyclone, and they are both brushless motor type - hence the 'triple brushless geared'
I was tempted to use it on my dual Magic Pie but no, as I said I am holding off for another project.
The cyclone motor will have greater climbing ability, and possibly more top speed but at the cost of efficiency and noise. It is not much fun to align and fit to your bike either.
I think you just need to buy a Magic Pie man. Seriously you will be a happy chappy and going faster than 45km/h on a push bike is retarded! I don't think I'll ever build a super speed machine its all in monkeys head haha
So the moral of the story is buy the pie. num nums
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Thank you MonkeyMagic,
I really appreciate your opinion.
Which Controller would you recommend for using it with the MP in order to increase its speed and climbing ability? It seems I heard it can run on 60V (and I don't know on how many amps)...
BTW, why not to leave the Cyclone motor (how many watt have you got?) on the bike and turn it ON just in a case of hills and uplands? You could easily turn the motor ON/OFF by using a small red button on the right handle of the GM twist throttle...
Now there is another case... What's better? Adding another MagicPie motor along with the controller to the bike and making it "dual drive" or just having a single MagicPie motor for the regular rides and one Cyclone motor (even just 500W motor w/o any controller) for just climbing? In this case, only one MagicPie motor will work on the flat surfaces while the Cyclone motor will still OFF. And only while climbing you would turn the Cyclone motor ON. It seems that a little noise from the Cyclone motor while climbing might be a small price for the good acceleration... What do you think?
As far as I know, the second MagicPie motor helps just on hills and useless on the flat... Am I wrong?
So, do you turn the second MagicPie motor ON all the time or just while climbing? Turning it ON/OFF would keep the battery energy for the longer rides, isn't?
I look forward to your responses.
Thank you
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"I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears" - what exactly Nuvinci hub gear do you use? Why does it work better? What about just hub transmissions?
I've only seen these http://www.fallbrooktech.com/nuvinci.asp on the net. They eliminate constant shifting of gears - which at which speed of 70kpm would probably tear the derailleur apart at high speeds.
Also, you would need to reduce throttle right down when changing gears with a conventional gear set.
with the Nuvinci hub and the Cyclone motor you could constantly apply throttle and have an infinite number of gears so you can constantly tweak the gears at full power to fit the terrain.
I've not seen this done before but it would be cool. (if you can manage the noise equivalent to an electric drill)
There's less moving parts to the Nuvinci than conventional gears so less chance of failure or jamming of the gears and very smooth gear changes.
Remember that the Nuvinci is a hub so you can't use it with the rear Magic Pie.
you wrote: "Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing" - what controller is recommended? Would you put a link to it here?
Golden Motor do sell a 50A controller but their website is so horribly designed in such a way that I can't post a direct link to it and there's no actual technical information regarding it.
Go to Goldenmotor.com
click controller on the left
you will now be presented with the following conflicting information:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3222.0;attach=4588)
Nowhere in the Kit building page on the GM website does it mention the controller AMP rating so you can be made to think you will get 50A when this is not the case. You get the "30A" controller.
But to add insult to injury the 30A controller is in fact NOT a 30A controller and is more like a 16A controller.
I don't know why they feel they have to false advertise like or maybe it's an oversight. Either way, it's not acceptable they should be open and honest.
I fell for this trick when buying my MP and it has fallen short of the "30A" expectations.
I don't know what the 50A controller runs at but if the above example is anything to go by then expect it to run at considerably less than 50A.
Perhaps if you ask them nicely you can pay extra and get the larger "50A" controller.
Then there is the reliability factor of the controller which from personal experience is rather poor. I'm on my 3rd one now. Two failed within the space of 30km. This current one has lasted 100km so far and with TLC I expect it to keep on going but it doesn't give out too much power for me and my hilly terrain. So I bought a LYEN edition infineon rated at 30A
From doing research, the infineon controllers are among the best in terms of delivering the "stated" amps and voltage along with providing the reliability but these are pricey unless you go with LYEN Edition controllers (some ebike guy in SF who builds them in his garage and sells them on Endless SPhere at marginal proft).
There's ebay as well but these are a bit of a lottery in terms of what you will get unless you can get recommendations from other buyers.
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you wrote: "The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX." - the Magic (Cruise) Controller from GM is programmable and gives up to 30A in continuous current and up to 50A in peaks. Am I wrong?
You are wrong.
But correct in your understanding of what the website is saying. (assuming you are going off this picture - which again implies the user to assume that these will be the max settings when they are not)
(http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/PI-200%20GUI.jpg)
However, the website is incorrect and needs to be changed to say 16A MAX for the controller you will get with the kit because to go beyond this is physically impossible with the components they have inside the controller.
I had bought the USB programming cable and set the software to program the controller at the max setting for continuous ans max but this changed nothing in the performance of the controller Magic pie from the default :(
Maybe GM should change the website to reflect the truth. ::)
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to be more clear ... take the continues ampere and divide by 2.
i have an PI200-E (exactly, I have 4 PI200-E...all result on the same situation) and the programmable cable...when I set 30A continues, I have 15A max in all condition (big hill or flat start road).
it's the shunt, the problem...not the programmable setting.
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using an infineon controller set on "long range" 30 amp settings, I can peak 50-55 amps on 1 pie only, thats nearly 2500 watts...and I have done this on long 50 mile daily commute....the controller by default handles about 50-60 amps, although this may be too much for the pie.......
As for hills, as long as you start the hill at 10-15 mph, very few hills present a problem
Only if my speed is low do I have many issues, and area is very hilly
motor only gets warm, not hot, on all 25 miles, average 22mph
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Magzy,
Would you like to provide a link to the mentioned by you Controller?
Thanks
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personnel,
you wrote: "it's the shunt, the problem...not the programmable setting"...
Do you know how remove this shunt?
Thank you
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dirtyginge,
What's controller do you use? Could you please provide a link to it?
Thank you
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Hi there
Ive used edward lyens infineon controllers, he does many in the range but for the pie ive used the 12 Fet version..
I am importing a 6 fet "mini monster" for my mini motor, 6 Fet 1200W peak controller.....review to follow ....
They are programmable (Lead $19), regen enabled, very powerful ( irb4110 fets) 6 fet 25A, 12 fet 65A....
lyen@hotmail.com, email him with your requirements, and he will provide you with a few options, with almost immediate shipment ( even though he builds them), 6 day shipping from USA to UK...also does lots of bits n pieces like motor tester and DC to DC converter $15...i use to run my hope 8V LED lights direct of my battery...
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Thanks dirtyginge,
I'll email him
Thank you !
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for starting out, the MP stock controller will be fine for most people.
I've been using it now for a couple of weeks and have clocked up 150km thus far.
Despite having 2 controllers fail on me previously this one is bearing up quite nicely.
I have ordered a lyen edition infineon controller from the US - this is a 9 fet 72v 30A controller that I believe will really bring the best out of the MP (i.e double the amps of the stock GM controller)
It's only $89 USD with about $20 international postage to outside the US and this is great value because you get the performance and reliability coupled with and customer service from Edward that is number one!
here' s some more info about it http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16998
and a review here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/10543-review-lyen-edition-72v-controller
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I've got prices from LYEN:
18 FET Low RDS MOSFET Overclocker Ready LYEN Controller $199
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16605
24 FET 10000Watts Muscular High Current LYEN Controller $299
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19612
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Which Controllers are better - from LYEN or from http://Kellycontroller.com/products.php?
What are your opinions?
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strange, but I thought id replied to this question already, have I drunk too much tonight ?
ok, here is a few thoughts, my own thoughts though
12 FET controller is plenty for pie, ( 48V @ 60A = 2880 watts, this may fry poor pie), 18 or 24 is too much
indeed, I received a minimonster controller from lyen recently for my minimotor, even this little 6 fet monster puts out a staggering 1400 Watts, but 12 fet give you plentyyy
On my 12 fet, I run constant 750 watts with peaks of 2700 watts, no modification to pie, altough strong TORQUE arms are needed, ( and rear motor only, not front)
Now I understand that the Kelly controllers are very similar, as are the controllers from both ecrazyman and "methods" ( endless-sphere) and also ebikes.ca...similar boards, similar high end mosfets multiple shunts etc.....
Kelly controllers and ebikes.ca controllers come very highly rated, as is lyen's however as edward lyen is an individual not a company, he builds your controller to spec, with special "customisation" if required, send with very very cheap postage and sends as a "gift" ( it is a gift, mannah, whence you put on pie after GM controller ), so the overall cost for me was much cheaper from Edward lyen...his customer service and communication was excellent ( so was ebikes.ca who I have also dealt with, but I pay customs charges etc)
I cannot tell you from my own experience which is better, but I can tell you a 12 fet controller from lyen is more than man enough for a pie....i have tuned mine down to 25A, as every time I hit a hole in road on 40 amps, my front wheel wants to lift because my thumb bounces on the throttle..) he also uses proper IRB4110 mosfets, rated 100V and the controller at 48V settings can handle up to 84V :o
Which is better, I don't know....where do I shop for now and future....lyen@hotmail.com ;D
( got other bits too, voltage out PAS, honeywell ss41 hall sensors, ebrakes, a controller for each season....etc etc)
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Thank you, dirtyGinge !
You wrote:"rear motor only, not front" - why? Is that because the holes on the road?
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putting 2000 watts plus through a front fork is dangerous on aluminium...if it fails, you loose teeth and nose...if you put miles like mine, aluminium fails (4500km)
plus in wet you have problems with grip...if rear skids....no problem, if front skids....dentist
a steel fork might be ok, but cost more than bike
check advice on endless-sphere forums.......
sorry for english, sick child in other arm.......
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+ you will go through tyres fairly fast @ 40 amps! ;D
I'm convinced the pie could take 80 amps constant, though don't blame me if your pie fries! :D
When I was using it @80 amps the hill climbing was crazy, but I was beating the crap out of the ping!
I climbed a really steep hill @20mph no problem to it and It was barely warm!
I wouldn't use the pie above 48-52 volts because it's most efficient at that voltage!
If I were to do it again I would get a Kelly controller because they have some fantastic configuration settings that I don't think any other controllers have. You can set certain things in the infineons but it's not the same!
With the Kelly you can set it to your batteries specs and you can change it when you get a better battery!
I think the best batteries for the pie are without doubt some high rated LiPo, they are the best in the business, and can last up to 800 cycles these days with proper care.
I keep on emphasizing LiPO because it's a fair bit lighter than LiFeP04 and can take offer very high C rates!
6x 6S Zippy LiPo 8ah to make 44 volt 24 ah battery = 7.5 kgs compared to 48 volt 20 ah ping = 10 kgs! and 30C discharge rate!
So that's 24 ah x 30 = 720 amps continuous discharge! So put that in your pie and smoke it! ::) ;D
Ping 48 volt 20 ah = 40 amps constant discharge 1000 cycles @ 1C =20 amps continuous!
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http://Kellycontroller.com/keb7233024v-72v100a33kw-bike-brushless-controller-p-273.html
The above controller looks good and if I were buying the Pie again this is the controller I would get!
peak 100 amps for 30 seconds or 50 amps continuous, or you can get a controller that can output more amps continuous and keep watch on it or install a thermistor and connect it to the Kelly for monitoring! I feel the 12G Alpha wire eco would handle 60-80 amps continuous and can be got through the axel of the Pie!
One of the best things about the Kelly controller is the ability to adjust the take off current because the pie over 40 amps will definitely raise the front wheel really fast, I had a bad fall @ 80 amps where I was going around a bend at about 10 mph then pulled the throttle full blast and immediately it threw me up in the air and It dragged me along the road. I couldn't let go of the throttle in time!
SO soft start can be essential and ultra strong torque arms is an absolute must and keep check to see nothing comes loose! I can guarantee no hill too steep for the pie above 60 amps, longevity is another matter but I had no issues @ 40 amps!
The biggest problem is bogging the motor down at too slow speeds and high currents, the quicker the speed builds up the quicker the current falls back and that's what you need to achieve! So if you have ultra steep hills I recommend 50 amps +!
Mark
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I feel the 12G Alpha wire eco would handle 60-80 amps continuous and can be got through the axel of the Pie!
You're referring to the phase wires going through the axel here right?
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You're referring to the phase wires going through the axel here right?
Sorry magzy, indeed you are right, I keep messing that one up lol. The phase currents could be up to 120 amps at 40 amps battery current! SO I have great faith in the alpha wire!
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"The phase currents could be up to 120 amps at 40 amps battery current" - what does it mean? How is it?
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"The phase currents could be up to 120 amps at 40 amps battery current" - what does it mean? How is it?
No Idea, That's one for the electronics wizards amongst us! ;D
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"The phase currents could be up to 120 amps at 40 amps battery current" - what does it mean? How is it?
No Idea, That's one for the electronics wizards amongst us! ;D
Ya no kidding, I cant wait for the links, pictures, graphs, maybe even a video :)
Gary
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Leslie isn't here any more, he could have set us straight!
maybe Alan knows? ;D
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maybe Alan knows? ;D
Unfortunately I don't know the answer either. ???
I'm struggling to get my head around it too, as I can't figure out how the current can vary that much if the voltage is virtually the same throughout the complete circuit:
Battery Supply -> high FETs -> phase leads -> windings -> phase leads -> Low FETs -> Battery Ground.
With an external controller, it should be possible to put an AC ammeter on the phase wires and measure the actual figures involved, but as I don't have either an external controller or an AC ammeter, I am unable to try it. :(
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but sometimes I need to see things with my own eyes before I'm totally convinced.
Alan
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I remember the guys at ES always saying the phase currents are always higher, and in the infineon there is settings for battery and phase current.
The only thing I can think of is that it's maybe like some kind of amplifier, and the transistors somehow amplify the current?
I must see if I can route around es and find out!
Mark
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Hi All
The idea is that the phase current can be multiples higher than the battery current, in certain situations.....
For instance, in order to get fat me and bike moving from a dead stop, the amp requirement needs to much higher initially.once moving, the current backs off...phase current can also be known as peak current, and typically can only be maintained for very short periods of time, i.e. 1-5 seconds, and is a multiplication of the battery current....typically 2.5 times higher than the battery current setting
So, the battery current is the continuous current that can come down form the battery ( obviously), but the phase current is the maximum current the controller can send down each phase wire for burst periods...
If your still unsure, picture when pushing a car, how much more effort it gets to get the car moving, versus how much energy it takes once the car is moving to keep it moving ( or full shopping trolley etc)...
In the infineon I have, the continuous current is set at 30A, the phase current set at 75A, and the block time ( how long can the full phase current be maintained) is set at 1 second.....
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yo yo
I'm no guru, but I do know it is with a PWM or some kind of modulation to multiply the current based on the given resistance of the motor. Have a looksy at this post
:D
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19590&start=75)