Motor won't run in reverse

[Akhlut]

Hi guys, new to posting here. I hope someone can help.

I purchase a 10kw liquid cooled motor, vector 500 controller and the joystick throttle with fwd/rev from Golden Motors to do an electric conversion in my sailboat.

  Here are my problems.

  Initially, when I hooked everthing up to bench test it, I got a code 5 error. I have since fixed that. I put in a tech ticket for it, but ended up fixing it myself. I haven't gotten much from tech support except "can you send us pictures, can you send us video".

 Now my problem is that the motor will only run in forward. Atleast when I push the throttle forward it moves. When I pull it back for reverse there is no response.
Am I missing something. I build motor control panels for a living so I know my way around stuff. But this has me stumped.

Next question.
  So, when the motor has no power supplied to it, it shouldn't turn. At least not easily. Then once power is on, from what I'm told, the motor should be able to free spin. Is this correct?

My motor, with no power on, is hard to turn. Like a stepper motor. After turning the power on the motor is still the same.
How is this suppoed to work with regen? I can barely turn it by hand. In the program I turned on the regen. Actually enabled everything in the program, and I still have the same results. Motor won't free spin and no reverse.

  OH, and what is the 3 position turn switch on the throttle for. It doesnt seem to do anything.

Thank guys in advance. I hope someone can help and fairly quickly. My boat splashes in 3 weekends and I'd love to have the motor in and running properly.

[Bikemad]

Hi Akhlut andto the forum.

Initially, when I hooked everthing up to bench test it, I got a code 5 error. I have since fixed that.

What was the "fix" for the Hall Sensor problem (error code 5)?

Now my problem is that the motor will only run in forward. Atleast when I push the throttle forward it moves. When I pull it back for reverse there is no response.
Am I missing something. I build motor control panels for a living so I know my way around stuff. But this has me stumped.

Does the motor run at full speed when pushed fully forwards, run at half speed in the mid position and then slow down and stop completely when the throttle lever is pulled back?
If so, you will need to change the settings in the programming software.

The Throttle mode selection determines which type of throttle is used:
The 1:Linear (conventional throttle) option provides a linear throttle from zero to maximum set rpm between the minimum and maximum valid voltage settings.
The 0:Hyperbola (Boat style throttle) option provides maximum set forward rpm at the maximum valid voltage setting (3.2V) and maximum set reverse rpm at the minimum valid voltage setting (1.2V). The zero rpm (Neutral) should be around the 2.2V.

If changing the Throttle mode selection doesn't make any difference, try changing the Speed throttle type from 1:Potentiometer to 0:Hall effect throttle (or vice versa) and see what happens.

Next question.
  So, when the motor has no power supplied to it, it shouldn't turn. At least not easily. Then once power is on, from what I'm told, the motor should be able to free spin. Is this correct?

My motor, with no power on, is hard to turn. Like a stepper motor. After turning the power on the motor is still the same.
How is this suppoed to work with regen? I can barely turn it by hand. In the program I turned on the regen. Actually enabled everything in the program, and I still have the same results. Motor won't free spin and no reverse.

As this is a permanent magnet motor, it will be just as stiff to turn by hand (without applying any throttle) whether the controller is powered up or not. The resistance you feel is caused by the magnets on either side of the rotor being attracted to each of the different steel sections on both of the stators.

If you were to disconnect all 6 Phase wires from the controller and connect their terminals together, it would be much more difficult to turn the motor, this effect is very similar to what happens when regenerative braking is engaged.

OH, and what is the 3 position turn switch on the throttle for. It doesnt seem to do anything.

The three position switch can be used to select different power modes if it is correctly wired to a controller that supports it:

The throttle shown above also appears to have a three position switch to select different power modes (Gears) (Economy, Normal and Sport).

If your VEC500 controller has the additional wiring that is required to use the 3 position Gear/Mode switch (which is not shown on the VEC controller wiring diagram), then you may also need to set the 3-Gears enable setting to 1:Enable for it to work.
Unfortunately, I don't know whether the 3-Gears switch mode setting needs to be set on 0:Button or 1:Shift, but I suspect it will be 1:Shift for the switch as the 0:Button option probably relates to a separate "Boost" button.

Pin 20 is used for High Gear input (or Button input)
Pin 4   is used for the Ground connection (required for Button or Gears)
Pin 24 is used for the Low Gear input

Alan
 

[Akhlut]

To fix the error 5 I changed the throttle from potentiometer to Hall.

The throttle runs only in forward. Slow increase as I push the throttle ahead. I don't know of its running full speed. But it is pretty fast. Dead stop when I put the throttle in the neutral position and nothing at all in reverse. Not even a twitch.

The throttle type is set to hyperbolea. When changed to potentiometer I get the error 5 again.
I have tried both setting in different combinations.

I'm not really worried if the 3 position switch works or not. I did take my throttle apart to see if anything g was broken. There is 3 more wires inside going to a plate. I don't know if they are connected together or not. The potentiometer is a sentop R22 0505 I believe. I know its R22 05.... If that will help with anything.

I would really like to have reverse so I can back out of my dock. Trying to move a 12000lb boat back breaking. Lol.

Thank you Alan for replying. I hope this bit of info helps.

[Bikemad]

How do your throttle settings compare to those shown below?



If your settings are the same, and the motor is not running backwards, it could be that the throttle signal voltage is not going below 2.2V when the throttle is pulled back (possibly a faulty throttle?).

Are you able to measure the voltage between the Black/White throttle ground connection (Pin 26) and the Green/White throttle signal wire (Pin27) to see if it goes down to ~1.2V when the throttle is pulled back fully?

If the throttle signal voltage is correct (varies between 1.2V in full reverse to 3.2V  in full forward throttle position) and your throttle parameter settings are as shown above, then it might be a problem with the controller itself. 

I'm puzzled by the error 5 with different throttle mode and type, as error 5 should only occur with an incorrect Hall Sensor input.
I would expect to see error 12 or error 14 if the throttle mode or type was incorrect for the particular throttle being used.

I would also want to check that the voltage reading on the +5V feed to the throttle (Red/White wire coming from Pin27) remains constant when the throttle is moved from one extreme to the other.

If you could save your parameters to a .foc file and then attach the file to your post, we can hopefully see if there is anything obviously amiss with the current controller settings.



With more testing, we should hopefully be able to locate the cause of the problem.

Alan
 

[Akhlut]

throttle in:
1.1v in neutral
1.1-2.7v full ahead
.4v full reverse Actually, it goes down to .4v as soon as the throttle is put even slightly in reverse
feed voltage 4v constant

The error 5 is rectified. I had to change the throttle type to Hall.

Having the throttle mode in linear or hyperbola has no change.

[Bikemad]

The throttle signal output is definitely not what I would expect, as it should be at least 3.2V in the maximum Forward position, below ~1.2V in maximum Reverse position and ~2.2V in Neutral.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to say for sure whether the throttle is faulty, or whether something inside the controller or a wiring fault between the throttle and controller is somehow pulling down the throttle signal output coming from the throttle unit.

I suspect that it's just a faulty throttle, but I cannot be 100% sure, taking into consideration the unusual error code 5 that you are experiencing with different throttle settings. 

I am also puzzled as to why "having the throttle mode in linear or hyperbola has no change".

Testing the throttle on a known good controller/motor setup would either confirm or confute my suspicions.

As you obviously want to sort this problem fairly quickly, I would suggest contacting your supplier with a view to returning the controller, its wiring harness and the throttle unit, so that they can properly test everything and replace the part that is causing the problem.

Alan
 

[Tommycat]

Hi Akhlut,

My first thought is don't do anything to mess up a warranty replacement! 

But that said, I think there might be a couple checks you might want to make.

From your description you say that the throttle has a potentiometer for operation.  If you disconnect the 3 wires, and verify the resistances between them.
Perhaps an obvious issue might be seen.
You should read the full resistance between the power in and ground wire. With variable resistance between either of these two and the wiper as the throttle is turned. One would be exactly opposite of the other as far as the amount of resistance detected during throttle stroke..
If not equal so to say, or in the middle of the range. Perhaps an adjustment could be made.

If it looks O.K. Take a 5vdc source such as an old phone charger, or USB battery and provide power. Then check the output on the wiper arm. Any better voltages from your original ones?  If so, it also seems like your 5VDC supply on the controller is a bit low. Perhaps removing any other peripherals that uses the 5vdc power supply, and recheck to see if one of them is dragging it down. Then recheck your throttle output using the controller's power.

To you both...  Does changing the setpoint from hall to potentiometer setting change the Throttle Parameter Voltage Settings?

It would seem if you lower the safeties enough, because of your low throttle voltages. You might get it to work just a little.
But the part about the throttle output voltage dropping severely right after going into reverse to me is most concerning.


Respectfully submitted,
T.C.

[Bikemad]

From your description you say that the throttle has a potentiometer for operation.  If you disconnect the 3 wires, and verify the resistances between them.
Perhaps an obvious issue might be seen.
You should read the full resistance between the power in and ground wire. With variable resistance between either of these two and the wiper as the throttle is turned. One would be exactly opposite of the other as far as the amount of resistance detected during throttle stroke..
If not equal so to say, or in the middle of the range. Perhaps an adjustment could be made.

The Sentop R22 0505 is a digital potentiometer not a mechanical one, therefore I would not expect to find the typical resistances measured across the pins that a mechanical potentiometer should have.
I would also expect it to incorporate some form of Hall Sensor and magnet arrangement which detects the lever movement, which would eliminate mechanical/physical sweeping contacts for improved reliability in a marine environment.

If the potentiometer housing can be physically adjusted to produce the expected voltage range with ~2.2V in the Neutral position, this (in conjunction with the correct controller settings) might cure the problem.
My concern is that the potentiometer housing is unlikely to have moved since it was installed and calibrated during manufacture, therefore it is more likely to be a faulty component, or it may possibly have been damaged by an incorrect wiring connection.

I realise this scenario is highly unlikely, but I would not expect the digital potentiometer to remain undamaged if, for example, the battery feed from the controller going to the elock switch had inadvertently been transposed with the +5V supply by mistake.

This is why I suggested returning the controller, the throttle, and the wiring harness, so that everything could be thoroughly checked.

As the motor runs fine in the forward direction, it is highly unlikely to be a motor problem, and, as the constant 4V measured on the +5V supply is sufficient for the motor's Hall Sensors, I suspect it should be sufficient for the throttle as well.
From experience, if the +5V supply is greater than 3.5V, it is usually sufficient to allow the correct operation of Hall sensor and potentiometer throttles.

A 10K pot can be used to test the throttle operation, even without the additional resistors shown below:



If set in the mid position when the controller is powered up, it should spin the motor in both directions either side of the mid position if the controller is set up for a boat style throttle.
Alternatively, if the controller is not set up for a boat style throttle, use a voltmeter to check the output voltage is initially ~1V and the motor should then run from ~1.2V all the way up to 3.2V (in one direction only).
However, the rpm of the motor may not increase/decrease proportionally throughout this range if the controller is using torque sensed control instead of speed control.

T.C. I've only been using the software without a controller attached (because I don't have an actual controller to test) and changing the Speed throttle type from 0:Hall effect throttle to 1:Potentiometer throttle does not change any of the Throttle parameter settings, whereas changing the Nominal battery voltage (V) setting instantly updates five of the other Voltage parameter settings.

Alan