Author Topic: LiPo battery packs  (Read 35443 times)

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 11:13:36 PM »
If the cells are perfectly matched, they will normally discharge at approximately the same rate.

I use 5000mAh Turnigy LiPo packs and the cell voltages always seem to stay nice and even.
When I put them on charge after use, the cells are usually within ±0.01V of one another, both at the beginning of the charge and at the end of it.

I'm guessing that when the packs are assembled at the factory, the individual cells are matched up with similar cells.

One of my original packs was faulty, so I dismantled it and removed the faulty (Puffed up and low voltage) cell, converting it from a 3s to a 2s pack.

The individual cells each had a sticker with two numbers on, and the cell I removed was marked 5300 and 5338 (see attachment below).
 
I don't know whether they test each cell twice, or whether one is the discharge capacity and the other is the amount taken to fully recharge it, but presumably these figures are used to allow all the cells in each pack to be matched as closely as possible.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:03:48 PM by Bikemad »

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 05:59:04 AM »
a lot of accidents happen after a deep discharge and then charge...same with li-ion ....

I know  we are all heading that way in a  couple of years.... Time to man up I guess :)

still, I don't use bms on my li-ion , no problems if you are careful
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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 10:10:42 AM »
A bms is good for people who are not knowledgeable about cell voltages, or for people who couldn't car less, or for people who just want simple worry free plug in and forget!

However I've learned that you do not need a bms at all, while out on a ride get a few of these, one for each pack




You have to set the low voltage alarm so you know it's time to back off on the throttle or even to shut off the controller altogether.

Some bms also add another 100-200 Euros to the price of the batteries and they don't have a very good reliability record, though I had no issues with my Ping bms!

LiPo is definitely the best in the business for E-Bikes as they pack some energy and can discharge very high C from a very small pack, LiFeP04 can't begin to touch it! Sure A123 make good cells but they can't offer the high discharge and charge rates of LiPo and they are very expensive! You can make a cheap 16ah 44 volt pack for around 330 U.S.D.

Then there is around 100 U.S.D for shipping to Europe, and maybe the same for other countries.

44 volts is plenty for my geared motor but not so for pie users who would need 60+ volts for decent speed! But the beauty of LiPo is I can change my pack from 16ah to 8ah for short trips or cycles that I want to exercise, I can dump the extra weight, you can't do that with a 20ah ping! And the 8ah pack will weigh only 2.5 kgs or the 16ah 5.5. 32ah 44V LiPo would weigh around the same as a 20ah Ping!

The cost of the charger and power supply can add another 150-200+ depending on how fast you want to charge. My Icharger setup will be capable of charging at around 20 amps, and should charge my 16ah pack in just under an hour, of course you can charge much faster than that but it get's damn expensive and besides 1 hour is plenty fast, much better than 4 hours for a 48V 20ah ping with a 5 amp charger!




And power supply







Of course you could use a bulk charger and disconnect the ping bms and charge it much faster and use it's normal bms for discharge or to balance now and then, though I never had a balance issue with the ping and the lights always came on within 1-2 mins of each other!

Faster charging LiPo gets expensive, and it's the power supply that's the most expensive, you can pay up to 350 U.S.D for a meanwell 24V 1500watt P.S.U and I think many people in the U.S and Canada have problems after that on 120AC mains!

You can be lucky to find a power supply cheap on e-bay used, or new. SOme guys even bulk charge with just the meanwell, they seem to be the best out there!

Say my pack would be 49.44 volts charged, going by 4.15 ish seems to be the agreed maximum voltage to extend the life of LiPo to some say 800+ cycles! So you set your meanwell to 49.44 volts and it will limit the current when the desired voltage is reached!

That way of charging is usually done after a few cycles to make sure all the cells are closely matched because you will be charging without balancing and balancing is not necessary most of the time if you don't bring your pact to lvc all the time!

It's the easiest way to charge, because for my Icharger I'll have to break my pack's series packs into parallel to charge while it monitors the cells, no big deal really, but you could get a cheap 10 amp meanwell for charging while out on the road without the need to bring the Icharger along!

I know it may seem daunting for those used to plug in and forget  ;D but once you do your research and pay attention to your wiring you will be fine. I'm still waiting for my batteries!  :'(
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 02:45:36 PM by Bikemad »

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 10:11:50 AM »
ok so why didn't it put the pics where I wanted to???  ???

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »
now they are where I want them to be, and there is 3 at the bottom. wtf?  ;D

Offline Just

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 11:29:13 AM »
As for the CellLog, it's able to monitor up to 6 cells only (for LFP 3.3V*6=19.8V). So, for 48V battery you would need four LogCells (one for each pack of 13.2V=33.V*4). The price of one LogCell is about $13 + $2 for a proper connector with wires. Finally you will pay about $60 and lot of headache just for monitoring cells while riding... Isn't better to buy BMS for the same price from Chinese manufacturers + $40 for postage? Conclusion: if you value  your headache less than $40 then stay with CellLogs. If not - switch to BMS!
P.S. sorry for the rude tone, if you find it so - it was not my intention...

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2011, 11:51:49 AM »
ok so why didn't it put the pics where I wanted to???  ???

Mark, when you attach a picture from your computer, it just puts them at the bottom of your post as an attachment.
You can insert the image within your post by copying the URL of the attachment and pasting it inside the image tags, but this can only be done after you have posted and the attachments uploaded, which is what I have already done with your post. ;)

To insert an image within your post from another website or image hosting site like Photobucket etc., you simply copy the URL of the image and paste inside the image tags like this:
Code: [Select]

[img]https://cdn-global-hk.hobbyking.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/660x415/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/1/8/189966.jpg[/img]


and the image will be displayed like this:



You can also link to a full size image by putting the reduced image inside a hyperlink as shown in the first example below.
To reduce the size of large images you must specify either a height or width (in pixels), or you can even distort the picture by specifying both the required height and width measurements:

Code: [Select]

[url=http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3302.0;attach=4656;image]
   [acronym=Click to see full size image]
      [img width=200]http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3302.0;attach=4656;image[/img]
   [/acronym]
[/url]
The above code would normally be a single line of code.
I have separated the lines to stop them from disappearing off the screen, and it should also make it easier to understand.

[img height=200]http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3302.0;attach=4656;image[/img]

[img height=300 width=100]http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3302.0;attach=4656;image[/img]

[img height=100 width=600]http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3302.0;attach=4656;image[/img]


and this is the result:









I hope this hasn't confused you too much. ;)

Alan
 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:04:02 PM by Bikemad »

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2011, 11:57:56 AM »
haha Thanks Alan, that is very helpful!  ;D



Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2011, 12:07:47 PM »
As for the CellLog, it's able to monitor up to 6 cells only (for LFP 3.3V*6=19.8V). So, for 48V battery you would need four LogCells (one for each pack of 13.2V=33.V*4). The price of one LogCell is about $13 + $2 for a proper connector with wires. Finally you will pay about $60 and lot of headache just for monitoring cells while riding... Isn't better to buy BMS for the same price from Chinese manufacturers + $40 for postage? Conclusion: if you value  your headache less than $40 then stay with CellLogs. If not - switch to BMS!
P.S. sorry for the rude tone, if you find it so - it was not my intention...


A bms doesn't mean that your cells won't get damaged if it fails, and you are paying 100-200 U.S.D for a good bms anyway!

A lot of people had big problems with bms for LiPo, and yes the initial investment is a lot, but for high power use, LiFeP04 will cost a lot more, and you probably won't be able to charge as fast, + it weighs a lot more also!

If you want a cheap LiFeP04 plug in and forget, for 1C or 2C max, then ping is your man, however his batteries are rated for 1C and so are most batteries available, now push a ping to 2C and you will get a lot less charge discharge cycles.

GM batteries are not cheap, and can't dish out more than 1C either without effecting their life.

If you want to draw more than 1C continuous then LiPo is is the best out there at the moment.

For instance, many people want a 10 ah battery because it's small and light, but you can't pull more than 10 amps, that's 1C, with LiPo you can pull 30 C+ that's 300 amps continuous and completely over rated for E-Bike use, but will be  a lot easier on the battery. You can even get cheaper 15 C  batteries, only disadvantage is the charge rates really!

With lipo you can buy more batteries as you get more money and add to the pack for higher voltage or capacity or both, with a ready made LiFeP04 you cant!

If you want to go on a short ride you can split the pack or add it again for longer rides. Charge LiPo to 4.1v and you will nearly double the cycle life, according to some experts in the RC community and on the ES forum!

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2011, 12:38:52 PM »
As for the CellLog, it's able to monitor up to 6 cells only (for LFP 3.3V*6=19.8V). So, for 48V battery you would need four LogCells (one for each pack of 13.2V=33.V*4). The price of one LogCell is about $13 + $2 for a proper connector with wires. Finally you will pay about $60 and lot of headache just for monitoring cells while riding... Isn't better to buy BMS for the same price from Chinese manufacturers + $40 for postage? Conclusion: if you value  your headache less than $40 then stay with CellLogs. If not - switch to BMS!
P.S. sorry for the rude tone, if you find it so - it was not my intention...

The CellLog actually handles up to 8 cells:



so you would only require two of these to monitor every cell in a 16 cell pack.

The other alternative for LiPo packs is a simple battery monitor:



but these can only monitor each LiPo pack voltage rather than individual cells (unless you use one per cell) but are much better than receiving no warning whatsoever and risk ruining a perfectly good LiPo pack.

I have both of the above devices, but I tend only to use the basic battery monitor most of the time as I don't tend to run my packs anywhere near empty, but it does have a very loud warning device which can be handy if you forget to disconnect the pack. ;)

It may be cheap and cheerful, but it certainly does the job for me.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 12:43:53 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2011, 01:40:12 PM »
For instance, many people want a 10 ah battery because it's small and light, but you can't pull more than 10 amps, that's 1C, with LiPo you can pull 30 C+ that's 300 amps continuous and completely over rated for E-Bike use, but will be  a lot easier on the battery. You can even get cheaper 15 C  batteries, only disadvantage is the charge rates really!

The Turnigy Nano-tech pictured in a prevoius post can supply 45C (225Amps) continuous with bursts of up to 90C (450Amps).

I'm currently using the cheap and cheerful 20C packs which can produce 100Amps continuous and bursts of 150 Amps., but as Mark has already mentioned, the charge rate is limited to 2C (10 Amps) which is fine for my 7Amp charger, but not really enough for high regen currents if you are using a small 5Ah pack.

This is not a problem with the Turnigy Nano-tech packs, as they have a much higher charge rate, this 6Ah pack can safely be charged at 30Amps, which is more current than I've ever managed to get from regen:



My Icharger setup will be capable of charging at around 20 amps, and should charge my 16ah pack in just under an hour, of course you can charge much faster than that but it get's damn expensive and besides 1 hour is plenty fast, much better than 4 hours for a 48V 20ah ping with a 5 amp charger!

Sorry to burst your bubble Mark, but your charger has a maximum charging output of 350Watts, so unless you're only charging 4 cells at a time, the current will be much lower (nearer 10.5 Amps for an 8 cell pack) so expect an hour and a half at least for a fully discharged pack.

My Imax B8 (7Amp charger) can only manage 5.4Amps on seven cells (150Watt) and I'm using a 14V 20Amp (280Watt) power supply.

Two chargers is one option for faster charging, provided you can split the pack in two, but you will definitely need a heavy duty power supply to power them. ;)

Alan
 

« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 01:42:22 PM by Bikemad »

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2011, 03:50:31 PM »
It's a 15V 23 amp charger Alan?

That was the charger recommended intheir specs?

And I thought it would charge all 8 cells @20 amps?

Though I'm only using 6S and I'll be parallel charging


Mark

Offline Just

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2011, 04:36:54 PM »
o00scorpion00o wrote: "With lipo you can buy more batteries as you get more money and add to the pack for higher voltage or capacity or both, with a ready made LiFeP04 you cant!"
Really? Can you explain why? Or just go over the Ping's site and he will explain how to connect its LFP4 battery packs (with BMS) is serial as well as in parallel.
Any comments?

Offline Just

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2011, 04:52:31 PM »
Alan, where can I buy this basic battery monitor, which you mentioned in  your post above? What's its voltage range? Is it programmable?

you wrote: "very loud warning device which can be handy if you forget to disconnect the pack" - don't you disconnect it at all from the battery? What's its power consumption (my guess it's just a leakage...)?

Offline Just

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2011, 04:57:29 PM »
Bikemad, you wrote: "but not really enough for high regen currents"

So, how high are the regen currents usually? Do they depend just on the motor or both the controller and motor? Please tell more...