Author Topic: New Project  (Read 36063 times)

Offline o00scorpion00o

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New Project
« on: May 17, 2011, 06:55:55 PM »
Hi Guys, I'm back!

I am building a new project and it's rather a daunting task, there is nothing related to GM so hopefully they don't mind me posting this!

I miss my Magic Pie, and I see Pat zooming past me while I'm peddling through the strong winds on my human powered bike  ;D

I am waiting on my motor and controller and batteries. I have the charger and power supply!

The motor I have decided on this time around is a much lighter geared motor that should be capable of taking 2kw at 50 volts. Being internally geared means it should be more efficient and have greater torque compared to direct drive of the same dimensions, there is also a clutch which allows the wheel to freewheel compared to the motor drag of the Magic Pie which was just too hard to pedal. I like cycling and that was a major turn off including the weight and weight of a ping 52 volt 20 amp!

Downside is there is no possibility for regen on geared motors, so hydraulic brakes are a must!

This time around my objective is boost not motorbike lol. I still want to have fun when I'm in the mood which is why I went with a high power setup! I enjoy cycling and have lost 15 kgs in the last 8 weeks without motor power, and diet change and I want to continue, so having a bike I know has shorter range will allow me to climb the steepest hills, but still make me pedal because I know I have limited electric range and still allow me to go that extra distance by pedaling and electric combined, and we get a lot of wind here, so much that it can ruin cycling enjoyment altogether!

I changed my tyres from mountain bike tyres to continental sport contact pumped to 80 psi and boy did it make a difference! I could not believe how much easier it was to cycle! they have higher 120 psi tyres but I could not get them here!

I cycled my brothers trek racing bike a few weeks ago and did over 30 miles and the bike made such a major difference, you can really go long ranges on those bikes it was amazing, but they are expensive!

The reason for choosing LiPo was mainly the fact I need LiPo to allow me the high current from a much smaller pack! And you can build a fairly cheap pack from it, and of course it's lighter.

The batteries I have chosen this time around are LiPo and I had to research a lot so I know how to use it properly. LiPo has a reputation for exploding and catching fire!  ;D However newer LiPo's are far more stable and reliable but will not take abuse well, for instance, over charging or over discharging. LiPo really takes a lot of research before attempting to use it!

LiPo currently does not have a BMS to monitor the cells, instead the battery charger does all the cell balancing! To charge you have to either charge each pack separately, or connect them in parallel along with the balance wires. And you need to use cell monitors to alert you if 1 cell goes too low so you can shut off the controller while out riding!

I am getting 4x 8ah 6S zippy batteries, to give me 44 volts and 2 packs in series gives me 44 volts 8ah or connect the extra 2 if I want to go long distance, I will have 16 amps capacity or just under.

LiPo does not have the charge discharge cycles of LiFeP04, however a lot of people do not charge or discharge each cell to min or max and that can double the life from 3-500-7-800 cycles+.

2 packs @44volts 8 ah will only weigh 2.5 kgs or the 4 will give me 16 ah capacity and weigh only 5 kgs, not bad, and the geared motor should allow me 25-30 mph even @ 44 volts!

And the other good thing about LiPo is the fact you can pull very large amounts of current and charge at very high rates. You can charge some LiPo at 50 amps and more but the charging equipment will cost a lot of money.

The charger I chose is an Icharger 208B and a 15 volt 23 amp power supply. It is capable of charging at 20 amps and far greater than the 5 amp max charge of Pings batteries!

Pings batteries are good at lower C rates and I'm sure GM's too, and if you want a plug in and forget battery then these are the batteries to buy.

With LiPo you have to disconnect your batteries and arrange in parallel to charge which some might find a pain, but most guys don't care at all!

Now I am waiting for my motor kit as they are out of stock and so are the batteries because E-Bikers are starting to catch on to LiPo now and they are selling faster than they can stock them and if they run out like they have now, it can take 4 weeks to get in new stock!

Okay so that's it for now and more to follow Pics too but it could take a while before I get all the parts!


Mark

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 04:44:54 PM »
Okay so the motor is installed and the controller is wired for programming.

Next comes batteries, someday....... :'(

The freewheeling is amazing, I took it for a 6 mile spin and it was completely different to the pie, I could save a lot of ah with this motor!

I do notice it's there, however being able to pedal so much easier is just heaven!  ;D

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 07:08:19 PM »
Okay I managed to get pat to let me borrow his ping!

This motor is amazing! 32 mph on 48 v ping!

I cycled 17.8 miles and used only 5.6 ah!

The freewheeling makes a major difference, and even with the heavy ping I managed to cycle a lot easier than with the Pie!

I changed the mountain bike tyres for Continental sport contact pumped to 90 psi, they freewheel for ages compared to normal tyres and my pedal speed is much more also!

I put 2600 watts into the Mac motor! The acceleration is amazing, the motor is amazing and it's about the same size as the brake disk!


Mark

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: New Project
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 07:40:37 PM »
Looks like pat is an all round hero, is he jealous on his pityful pie ?

the freewheel experience is certainly a different one ( not on MAC yet)......

If you are old like me, you need to be careful with the high PSI tyres, hitting potholes at high PSI will hammer your wrists etc...

Be careful though, above 2000W risks stipping the gears, you put any steel in there ?  8)
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 07:53:10 PM »
Looks like pat is an all round hero, is he jealous on his pityful pie ?

the freewheel experience is certainly a different one ( not on MAC yet)......

If you are old like me, you need to be careful with the high PSI tyres, hitting potholes at high PSI will hammer your wrists etc...

Be careful though, above 2000W risks stipping the gears, you put any steel in there ?  8)


HaHa Pat didn't get a spin on it yet! He said I could keep the battery until tomorrow, but I hope to use it up before I give it back!  ;)

The tyres are rated for 80 psi, so an extra 10 hopefully shouldn't hurt!

We will see how the new improved gears take the power, they are upgraded and supposed to be stronger than the BMC  gears!

It's seriously addictive!

You will be glad you got one!  ;D

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: New Project
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 08:07:55 PM »
Well at the moment im running both the pie, and a seriously overworked minimotor ( post to follow)......they really are chalk and cheese....

There are instances where I can see the pie winning, and instances for the geared motors....

I don't know about the improved mac gears, but the stripped gears usually appeared at above 2000W peak.....its great for a good workout

my summary
Geared motor ( for the cyclist that wants extra, long miles or higher speed, 11 tooth freewheel required for sure)
Magic pie       ( lets face it, you wanted a motorbike, you have no intention of ever peddaling, altough the 3 way infineon switch is a close emulation to the above, set speed one to 18MPH, full throttle, and pedal like a madman )

Having both is a real bonus, you can choose the mood :)..day 1, pedal, day 2, fat man , day 3 pedal :)
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 08:16:10 PM »


I know all about the failing gears and the mac was no exception, though the bmc V3 seem to be holding up well, call-man seems confident enough and he claims they are stronger than bmc gears now! time will tell, lucky they are easy enough to replace!

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: New Project
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 08:18:10 PM »
aye,  $25 for a spare set, and lyen can do $25 for a hardened steel, looks like you are spoilt for options......

Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 08:21:58 PM »
Ya a few options, I just wonder if cell-mans gears, being made from a different material are able to survive? time will tell!


Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 12:08:05 PM »
Okay Guys here she is!

I got a loan of Pat's ping battery and went for a spin and OMG it's fast, 32 mph on level ground she pulls 1300 watts at max speed!

I took it to a long steep hill climb and where the pie slowed down to 17-20 mph the Mac flew at 28 mph all the way to the top and the pie would consume 2100 watts and the mac only 1800 to maintain the 28 mph!

This is a very efficient motor and the gears allow the motor to spin faster allowing it to stay in the efficient zone!

The higher voltage also helps keep it there along with the torque, the acceleration and torque is amazing, a bit like the pie only the torque stays all the way to 32 mph!

It's seriously addictive!  ;D

Now I would only get half the range at 32 mph than I would with the pie @24 mph max! But you can always slow down, if you want the range or pedal and have fun the last few miles depending on the ah of your battery!

I changed my tyres to continental sport contact pumped to 90 psi, and I notice a big difference peddling, so that might have something to do with better efficiency and top speed, but it's still way faster than the pie.

It absolutely flies up hills, and they actually won't seem like hills anymore!

When I got to the top the phase wires were warm and after sitting a few mins the motor got hot, I felt in between the two cover plates. I don't know how long would take it, I think the gears would be fine but I think I could have went much further without any issues, on steeper hills I might be concerned at high amps but you can always back off on the throttle. The pie was only ever mildly warm!

very long steep hills might make it hot, but you can always keep check, on level ground and normal hills it will not be a problem at full throttle!

Now I fear My LiPo pack @44 volts might knock a few mph off the top compared to the 52 volt ping! But it will still be plenty fast!

Pat took it out for a spin and you should have seen the smile on his face! Now he wants one too!  ;D

I would say at 60 volts it would easily do 35-37 mph, however I think 30-32 is plenty fast on a bicycle!

It really is amazing the power from such a small motor!


Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Project
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 12:14:39 AM »

It's looking very smart Mark, but I find it hard to believe it's 40% faster up that hill than the Pie, and while using 14% less power too.
If it had some form of lock up device on the freewheel, controlled by torque on the brake disc, then you could use regen as well.

How does the noise level of the Mac under load compare to the Pie?

Alan
 

Offline gf3

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Re: New Project
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 05:52:44 AM »
I would love to go to an ebike meeting and try out different set ups. I went for a direct dive motor because of the reliability of the nylon gears. But the geared motor sounds a lot better for lightness and stealth. Can you give some more pro's and con's information between the pie and the mac? 

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: New Project
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 07:17:43 AM »
Hi MArk

What spoke length do you have on that wheel, from tip to inside of elbow ?, and is the rim a standard 559*19 ERD Wheel ?

Might save me some time with my ruler :)
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 10:10:15 AM »
I would love to go to an ebike meeting and try out different set ups. I went for a direct dive motor because of the reliability of the nylon gears. But the geared motor sounds a lot better for lightness and stealth. Can you give some more pro's and con's information between the pie and the mac? 



Hi gf3,

Well the direct drive will take a lot of power, if it's the Pie you are talking about? and you don't have to worry about heat nearly as much as the geared motor.

The direct drive will not be as efficient or as fast or have the same torque as the geared motor. The geared motor has more torque and usually all the way to the top!

You will have to put more voltage and current into the direct drive meaning a bigger battery, but again you usually don't have to worry so much about heat because the Pie doesn't really get hot, it's a big motor and can dissipate the heat much better!

The geared motor will freewheel meaning no cogging when peddling, and it makes a hell of a difference!

The direct drive motor will allow regen for the extra braking, geared motors can't regen because of the freewheeling! You really need hydraulic disk brakes when going above 20 mph for safety if you don't have strong regen!

Regen doesn't really put much back in the battery unless you are going down a steep hill for 5+ miles, it's really only useful for braking!

Really some people prefer the Direct drive for stealth, though the pie isn't quiet especially under a heavy load going up a hill, the geared motor I have is not quiet but it doesn't bother me at all, I thought it would have been louder!

You got to take the two for a spin, but usually someone going from direct drive are amazed when they get a spin on a geared motor setup!

I know Pat wants one now, and that's after only a 2 mile ride!  ;D


Mark

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: New Project
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 10:31:40 AM »
Hi MArk

What spoke length do you have on that wheel, from tip to inside of elbow ?, and is the rim a standard 559*19 ERD Wheel ?

Might save me some time with my ruler :)


Hi Ginge PM sent, cause I'm not sure the info will be accurate!  ::)