Author Topic: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!  (Read 239998 times)

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #300 on: August 27, 2010, 01:14:20 AM »
I wonder if it would be plausible to tow a small light quite generator behind you.  Well you use a car motor to get to the base of the mountain why not use a generator.  Get to the base recharge, and put the generator under lock and key stook it under the bushes and shrubs and away you go.


Should be cheaper to run than a car motor and this could extend the Ebike range up to 10 times depending on your charger.

Packs can charge at 1c so I can see you getting you as far as the fuel tank is full.

Now the trouble to find a very light low power generator.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #301 on: August 27, 2010, 01:39:00 AM »
Yeah I found a few 1kva cheap that can do a 20 amp charge to a pack easy that weight around 25kg.

A few have done the hybrid bike thing so the idea isnt a new one.

My nets not good today we ran out of data so searching is a pain..

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #302 on: August 27, 2010, 11:24:58 AM »
Mark good to hear you are having happy days. ;D

What amps are you getting now with the new controller?

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #303 on: August 27, 2010, 07:23:36 PM »
Hi Leslie,

I'm getting 42 amps max continuous now. I am happy as it will climb anything, maybe the toughest bits with slight peddling to bring it back to speed. But it will still pull me up full throttle. My maths is not so good, but I estimate the steepest parts in the woods to be 45 degrees. On 35 degrees (by my estimates) it will pull me up @10mph and I am heavy at about 108-110kg. I will take pics next time I'm there.

Oh! speaking of pics I forgot to take pics of my dropouts as you requested. I will do that soon too and see if we can think of a better idea.

Regarding the generator. That is a good idea indeed. But the cheapest generators here can cost several hundred euros. Rarely Do I see AldI offer 700 watt generators for maybe 200 euros. All I need is 400 watts! Ping says the absolute max charging for his 20 amp ping is 5 amps( on the charger side ) limited by the BMS. Regen he says must not be more than 20 amps max so I think I would have to wait a long time to charge an empty battery!

The other thing is I'm not sure I would do 50 miles in one day on a mountain bike. lol who knows  ;D

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #304 on: August 28, 2010, 01:28:43 AM »
You notice Ive been watching your thread like a hawk.  The data you keep spitting out here is so useful to us.

Hey that's weird.  42 amps and you feel less torque than with the GM MC at 35 amps max.  Yet the motor gets warmer?

This is something I notice about GM'S general controllers, if you gets a good one they really jump out in the power department and are ultra efficient.  GM do make the PWM frequency to motor winding to the optimum and what the controller gives the motor you get in power.  Maybe why if something is a little bit out of whack they can fail.

You got to give GM credit for thi,s they do this part of the math pretty darn well.

Im sure the controllers you own pair very well with 9c motors or whatever they sell on Ebikes.ca

Makes me think about how I can solve this problem.  I got a a number of dead GM controllers I picked up for $20 each.  Some would last me a year and some wouldnt even work for a day.

The GM controllers that worked really made the Ecrazy controller feel weak in comparison. There was no weight these old regen only GM controllers could tow.

These were factory seconds my old AU GM dealer would send me to play with.  No way I want to do a 12 fet swap out on those boards so I just bought another.

If the power was interrupted or a hall blew in the motor those old controllers were dead or not good for much longer.

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #305 on: August 28, 2010, 08:22:22 AM »
Hi Leslie.

To be honest I think maybe there is less peak currents getting through?

As regarding the heat of the motor,  I was having so much fun in the woods, I decided to stay there longer  ;D and I have no doubt that was the cause of the heating.

I think perhaps it's the peak currents that might be limited with the infinion controller. I know you can adjust if you can find a cable to do so, and the software.

The throttle also seems a lot smoother, as if there is some king of soft start, But that could be down to leas peak current.

However this is nothing really and still has masses of torque. I just would love to know the limit of the pie before she fry's!
I'm thinking now that this controller is the way a 40 amp controller is supposed to be. It gives out a max of 42 amps constant. I must reset the peaks on the CA and see what comes up!

I have no doubt this controller could take 70 amps with a mod  ;) no no no I'm not even thinking about it! That would mess up my shunt value and make my cycle analyst useless, unless I could find a proper shunt rated for 60 or 70 amps!

Anyway I might consider it when I'm hungry some day and I'm in the mood for some baked pie!  ;D ;D ;D  for now I'm happy as she is!

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #306 on: August 28, 2010, 10:01:01 AM »
Hi Leslie.

To be honest I think maybe there is less peak currents getting through?

As regarding the heat of the motor,  I was having so much fun in the woods, I decided to stay there longer  ;D and I have no doubt that was the cause of the heating.

I think perhaps it's the peak currents that might be limited with the infinion controller. I know you can adjust if you can find a cable to do so, and the software.

The throttle also seems a lot smoother, as if there is some king of soft start, But that could be down to leas peak current.

However this is nothing really and still has masses of torque. I just would love to know the limit of the pie before she fry's!
I'm thinking now that this controller is the way a 40 amp controller is supposed to be. It gives out a max of 42 amps constant. I must reset the peaks on the CA and see what comes up!

I have no doubt this controller could take 70 amps with a mod  ;) no no no I'm not even thinking about it! That would mess up my shunt value and make my cycle analyst useless, unless I could find a proper shunt rated for 60 or 70 amps!

Anyway I might consider it when I'm hungry some day and I'm in the mood for some baked pie!  ;D ;D ;D  for now I'm happy as she is!

Just keep in mind your ping limitation.

The irony is that you loved flogging that little  6 fet controller to death and now you gots 12 or more fets you're limited to your pack performance.

What the cont and max.  That controller can do 72v ehh.  

I think you will find changing resistor R01 and sticking 72V into it will really wake those fets up and the gate clamping will be so much more hair triggered.

See the fet gate legs are clamped to ground via a resistor, or resistor and zener, and so they don't get stuck on. At lower voltages, when switched off, the next trigger has to work harder to bring the fet back on, this slows the switching speed.


This also makes the controller less efficient at the lower voltages when switching is impeded in this manner.

Put the volts up to 72v, and the gate clamps that keep the fets off voltage rises on the gate, closer to the point they are almost switched on..

The plus side is, the MP IMHO will be fully efficient at 60v, wind resistance picks this off but thats to be expected at faster speeds.  Some wind fairings or a low rider recumbent would with a nose cone will make the MP at 60v perfect efficient and fast powerfull machine.

Between 72v~60v is a good middle ground for both your controller and MP I would say, 72v will make the controller very responsive but then you loose a little with the MP at the top end of acceleration.

60v the controller will be better than 48v but not as good as 72v, at 60v the MP would be spot on.

I could be wrong.  But Im just judging from the way my 72v Ecrazy controller would run at 48v compared to 60v.  Much better throttle response at 60v I experienced.

My down fall was is my HBS wasnt going to be very efficient at 72v, and sucked at 60v as it was, Sure the bike went faster but the torque was feeble,  so the sweet spot I was looking for was out of my systems grasp. Unless I modded the the fet gate clamps to do hair trigger switching at 48v at the risk of omitting the 60 and 72v operation possibility (voltage on threshold exceeds gate clamp at high volts)... I was never going to get the same performance as my GM controller designed for 48v. Something I couldn't be bothered with.

Many say the higher current only gives better torque, and this is true generally, but there are a million examples where the volts with certain gear gets the  rider more torque.

When you gets rich maybe get a 24v 20ah pack and series it to your 48v pack to make your back 72v, and then report how your awesome  Infineon controller goes.  :P
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 10:56:14 AM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #307 on: August 28, 2010, 11:32:20 AM »
Here is why I think your like happy days   :)

And not wooooo hooo  Oh boy.  :o :o :o :o :o ;D  LOL


Sorry.  :-\




Take a close look at where I label gate clamp.  48v is not close to being on. and 72v is like mmmm ready to go go go.

As you can see wide compatibility shouldn't show stellar performances around the board and its very difficult to get the fets to respond the same at different voltages.

Switching if it can get so slow, it can even impede the voltage amplitude and start to hit on not just torque but speed too.  Instead of seeing nice squareish trapezoidal wave you can see humps at the output.  This isnt great for efficiency.

The proper term for gate clamp is forward bias.  But I see the clamp there so this makes sense to me.  Tomato ~ Tomayto

« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:57:40 AM by 317537 »

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #308 on: August 28, 2010, 01:27:07 PM »
This is a copied post from the endless sphere forums




Re: GoldenMotor Magic Pie.

Postby icecube57 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:25 am

    Hyena wrote:Oh, and don't let the heat issues in the GMs deter you based on what icecube and I are doing - we're squeezing 5-10 times the rated power from the motors so it's not exactly normal operating conditions.



At 48v 35-45A the 48v 1000w GM has some balls to it. Its very efficent .5AH a mile at 30mph and very fast (almost licking 30-35mph). 48v is where ths motor is most efficient at. Even under load its still shines. When you start increasing the voltage past that the efficiency goes to sh!t. If you plug some figures in swblutos simulator for the GM motor on voltages over 48v on grades between 5-10% over 1/3 to 1/2 of the watts input into the motor generate heat whch makes the motor a poor choice for a commuter bike. But a 9C with the same numbers generates half as much heat vs the GM at higher voltages.

If you run the 48v 1000w GM as it was designed you will be happy. No air cooling needed. If you try to push it to the limits you will be happy but disappointed and the power consumption.

Here is another idea on how inefficent the GM is. Im doing 64v resting and 57v under load rough 10v more than 48v. My build consumes almost 1AH a mile now vs the .5AH at 48v. So by even only going 10v above 48v you already shot yourself in the foot.
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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #309 on: August 28, 2010, 01:36:53 PM »
I actually think the way for me to go in the future, is to down the road of geared motors. There is no way you can increase efficiency with direct drives. Meaning if I want faster speeds using the same battery.  Sure they have their advantages but I think for the lowest watts per mile, geared motors are the way to go. That is of course if you want faster speeds! The only thing you can't do is really over volt or feed too much current. And of course, regen. I will wait until I see what BMC will bring out in the future, because the V3 seems to melt phase wires above 35 amps, and I don't think I would fit my lovely thin 12G wire up that axle, as thin as they are! I will wait and see.

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #310 on: August 28, 2010, 01:53:21 PM »
OKAY LOL maybe not BMC V3

This is from ebikes-sf Another endless sphere forum member who sells motor kits.




 

Postby ebikes-sf » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:53 am
V3 is optimized for higher top speed (thicker magnet coil wire, less turns), about 35mph. If you're only looking for assistance on hills, and are ok with 25-30mph top speed on flats, I recommend V2 speed or torque motor, they're cheaper and more efficient.

My favorite motor is V2S. It has a little less torque then V2T at speeds below 10mph, but has higher top speed, about 30mph, and accelrates faster. I have it on my Big Dummy bike and I ofter ride with my wife on the back around San Francisco hills, 300lbs +.

For V3 motor, battery needs to support at least 35A continious, and for V2 25-30A continious.

Your 48v 20Ah battery needs to be at least 2C (2C x 20Ah = 40A) to support V3.




So maybe the pie is the motor of motors after all!  ;D

The pie can cruise @48-52 volts @24-25mph on level ground and uses around 750-850 ish watts.

BMC 35 mph @ 48 volts needs 1680 ish watts. But maybe that is not so bad when you consider the speed increase, But will kill your battery twice as fast! If I was using my bike as a commuter bike and could charge at work. Then that would be the bike for me. But for a nice spin in the country, with a bit of exercise and plenty of torque for any hill, the Pie more than meets my needs! 

I do wonder if they made a geared version of the pie, would you still have that wonderful torque with more top speed, and it still be efficient?

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #311 on: August 28, 2010, 04:08:00 PM »
I think the infineon is a 72v controller modded down to 48v for use on most common packs.

Everywhere I look the infineon looks just like my Ecrazy 72v 40 amps controller.  Ecrazy made mine sensorless.

Saw plenty of posts people trying to make these go well on various motors.  The BMC motors. seem to be ok with them, they have shorter thicker windings and this dictates the gate clamp current to go higher and via a low voltage over the windings.

This is just an example of a typical voltage divider. no where near accurate but I made it easy to understand.


     R1           R9
                |www|
---www-----www---  <BMC 
      1v           9v

       
      R1           R9.5 
---www-----wwwwww---  <Magic pie.
      .5v          9.5v       

By no means this means one motor is better than the other, the two different windings have different effects not just on the amount of current they draw but the behavior of the switching at the gate.

The fet gate clamp or forward bias can not get its voltages and current from ground as it is 0v it gets it from the motor coils when the fet switch is off.

A small amount of Current is routed through the motor coils and presents its self over the resistor of the fet gate as a forward bias and clamp keeping it form staying on and also keeping close to switching on.

Sure get a BMC or get more volts.  More volts will get you a lot further down the road with the MP and it will love you. And the BMC will just chew up the energy from your pack to get you that speed they get.  Thats fine, as the Infineon should perform better like this.

However!

One is more battery power :D and another is a motor sitting in the corner gathering dust. Which one do you thinks is the better choice?

More power or two motors  and only being able to use one on your controller?

I was happy with my ecrazy controller at 48v I lost quite a bit of torque but it did the job and was and still is reliable.  at 60v it made my eyes water a little more.  At 72v I think I would of been zipping.

I must admit my Ecrazy was a dedicated sensoless. and the HBS hub wasn't going to reports motor position too well at 72v, too much ciol saturation happening on take offs..  So there wasnt much in it for me to go to 72v.

You know, I would leave your bike as it is and if you get sick of it and you want more just try the mod and try 72v with two cheap 12v 12ah SLAs to see if it is what you want and the performance is better as I suspect..

Ride On mark.

Those controllers are pretty solid and there is little chance regen is going to hurt those 100v fets even at 72v.  But you need to do a little more mod than just R01 to get regen working at 72v.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 04:15:24 PM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #312 on: August 28, 2010, 04:20:07 PM »
Remember the BMC nylon planetary gears isnt going to like the woods at 30 mph.  I think you will get close to 40 mph with the pie at 72v

For the price of a 24v 20ah ping pack your speed and range will go up by more than 20% with a Pie.  As for torque I only assume the higher voltage will be one, V/R=I and switching will be better.

The BMC will cost you the same maybe but you speed will pick up about 10%.  Range may improve on flats but you loose on the slopes.

Its just a guesstimate.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 04:27:46 PM by 317537 »

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #313 on: August 28, 2010, 04:53:27 PM »
Hi Leslie,

yeah I agree, I will keep the pie and maybe treat it to more voltage down the road. And testing with cheap sla's is a good idea. I believe more voltage can get you more range too? And that may be the same as you saying more voltage will give you more torque too! Maybe more torque and range!

I was in pats today fixing his laptop, he had a play around on the bike and he loves it.  ;D

He also noticed tyre wear on the rear wheel. I have only 300-350 miles on it  ;D  all that torque!

Leslie, I believe that controller will do up to 84 volts. 84 volt pie! MUHAHAHAHAHAH

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #314 on: August 29, 2010, 02:16:45 AM »
Hi Leslie,

yeah I agree, I will keep the pie and maybe treat it to more voltage down the road. And testing with cheap sla's is a good idea. I believe more voltage can get you more range too? And that may be the same as you saying more voltage will give you more torque too! Maybe more torque and range!

I was in pats today fixing his laptop, he had a play around on the bike and he loves it.  ;D

He also noticed tyre wear on the rear wheel. I have only 300-350 miles on it  ;D  all that torque!

Leslie, I believe that controller will do up to 84 volts. 84 volt pie! MUHAHAHAHAHAH

Yeah there is that amps does more range and volts do more speed generalization some adhear too  But 20 amp hours is 20 amps in one hour.


At 20 amps

20 amp hours at 48v is one hour at 45 kph.

20 amp hours at 60v is one hour at 54 kph

20 amp hours at 72v is one hour at 62 kph

See the pattern.  No way you pull this amps all the ride so the range is more.  I based it linearly CC 20 amps to make my life easier.

One get you 45 kms down the road and the other end gets you 63kms down the road.

Because v/r=I, if you can back the current off at the higher volts 2~5 amps you can get your range up more to some degree but it sort of works fine as the extra amps you pull at higher volts makes up for the added wind resistance.

So if you get about .8 kms range per volt at 48v and .6 at kims more range per volt at 72kph. Its not the ideal range getter but none the less the range will increase.

52v/40 amps= 1.3 ohms.  1.3 ohms is the total resistance of the whole system.

52v/1.3ohms= 40 amps  ;)

63v/1.3 ohms = 48.4 amps

The added series cells are in the milli ohms range.


so lets make it 48.38 amps.
 
Every one that says amps gets you more torque is right especially when you put more volts in there. :P


.At 72v

You could decrease the speed via the CA back to 45 kph and your range will increase quite a bit.

increments of 12 v up.

=

72v/48 ratio.

=

6/4

= 1.5 time more range.

So if you go 75 kms distance at 48v 20 ah, 24v more volts (72v) as long as you slow the bike down to a 48v pack speed you will get 112 kms range.
 
Awesome.

  
 

« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 02:30:15 AM by 317537 »

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