Author Topic: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!  (Read 240002 times)

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2010, 11:41:33 AM »
Hi Leslie,

Looks a little complicated for me? Why do you use a voltage regulator?

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2010, 12:45:46 PM »
Hi Leslie,

Looks a little complicated for me? Why do you use a voltage regulator?

The regulator is not working as a voltage regulator.  Its a current follower set at 50ma.  This requires only one resistor and is less complicated..

How this works is

Vref/I=R

Vref is the reference voltage set in the IC, I (current) is what you want the the IC to output. R is the answer to what resistor you use to tie between output pin and adj to get you constant I current..

As the load is subjected over R the voltage drops to adj dropping the voltage to the output causing a constant current despite the input voltage, input current and resistive load.

So vref for the lm317t = 1.25v

1.25v/.05a = 25 ohm.

We use a 25 ohm resistor between the adj and output and draw our current from  the resistor output and adj.

The relay has 7 different types not spelled out very well in the data sheet.  So the coil rating part can be confusing.


24v 480ohm 50ma is what the circuit was designed for.


I have a 12v coil.  





The better relay for the 48v pack is the 24v rated coil. So the circuit I made works if you can get the 24v coil relay.

The coil will draw 104ma at 50v, too much, so we put the lm317t in current follow config not voltage regulation config, in there to stop the 100ma.  

By resisting half the current we resist halve the voltage to the coil as well.



Let me introduce you to ohms law.





E= Volts
I= Current amps
R= Resistance
W= Watts.

Some math.



v/r=I

24v/480ohm=0.05 amps OK!

^^^This is fine for the relay

50v/480 ohm= 0.104 amps, Ouch!

^^^This will blow the relay.

See as the pack discharges the current decreases to the relay coil.  What ends up happening if you set the coil good to work at 50v at 40v its starved and shuts down.  If you set the coil to work good at 24v when the pack is full the current to the coil is too much and it burns it out.

Normally the 48v pack sits at 50v max when resting full charged.  But we need 24v for our coil switch.

We can rely upon the coil resistance to distance the circuit load so the regulator only has to resist 50ma down from the 100ma at 26v drop.

More math.

26v*.05 amps= 1.3 watts.  That's pretty good.

The beauty of the current follower regulator; in this circuit, no matter what the voltage is, as long as its above 24v, it will give 24v @ 50ma from 60v, all the way down to 24v.  It doesnt matter what voltage the said device needs. Say you had one lamp to run at 10v at 1amp with a 30v input.  With a current mode reg you could run a 20v lamp at 1 amp on the same circuit.  Voltage doesn't matter no more, great hey!. Oh and I almost forgot, this little IC in current follow mode can take the inrush that those controller caps can cause and whip it tame.  This is not good for inrush with a regulator in voltage reg mode. The LM317t has a max current of 1.5 amps  As you know large caps can demand more peak current than you require when charging from 0v, 0v is seen as a short circuit until they get some energy into them. This can overload the IC in voltage regulation mode as soon as you switch her on.. Current reg mode is sweeeet for a precharging the controller or creating resistance to charging caps over the coil terminals to delay the relay switch, if you want to take it thus far..



The LM317t has a voltage rating of 37v drop from the input to the output, any more and its toast.  every thing is checking out by the math. 26v drop from 50v and 36v drop from 60v.

Everything seems to be working to plan in the circuit.  Looks like I nailed it to the floor.

Unfortunately I have a 12v coil, this sucks seriously as I have to bump down to 12v at 100ma, this is much more of a challenge.  I can still test the math to the above with my relay.

I will show you some pics because I pull my power box out tomorrow to try install a switcher reg .  I have a precharge delay on the FRA4 and I run the whole controller logic through the lm317t and LM338 regulators.

I switch on, a little bit of current charges the controller caps then whack the relay kicks in.  Zero arc switching.... :D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 02:39:38 PM by 317537 »

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2010, 02:41:43 PM »
Sounds complicated. It's a pity we can't just use a good old switch lol. On that note however, the magic controller has the facility for a switch, so Maybe I could get away with a lower current key switch or something? That would still leave the cycle analyst powered on though!

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2010, 03:25:24 PM »
Hi Scorpioso

I bought one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188

It also comes in 5v / 12v flavours too. I use mine for a heap of different electronics.

And also this to remote switch on the bike + act as a kill switch. Similar to Les' gear
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Gotta love ebay lol

Anyways you can easily rig up a simple switch or key switch for the relay

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2010, 10:07:18 PM »
Sounds complicated. It's a pity we can't just use a good old switch lol. On that note however, the magic controller has the facility for a switch, so Maybe I could get away with a lower current key switch or something? That would still leave the cycle analyst powered on though!



Try it.

This is called a double throw double pole switch.  DPDT

Put the red battery lead onto both middle terminals (poles) and the red controller lead onto both terminals to one side of the switch (throw).

You can connect the battery charger + wire to the other side of the switch (throw), it only needs to use one for charger current

Solder the black battery wire straight to both the controller and to a the battery charger - plug.

When you switch off the switch connects the battery to the charger plug, when you switch on it disconnects the battery from the charger plug and switches the battery to the controller... This way you cant charge and have the controller on at the same time.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:14:49 PM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2010, 11:19:42 PM »
About time I cleaned up and update some of my old pictures.

Does this diagram suit your needs?




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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2010, 11:33:18 PM »
Hi Scorpioso

I bought one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188

It also comes in 5v / 12v flavours too. I use mine for a heap of different electronics.

And also this to remote switch on the bike + act as a kill switch. Similar to Les' gear
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Gotta love ebay lol

Anyways you can easily rig up a simple switch or key switch for the relay


I do enjoy all that stuff I do, but sometimes I would like to save some time.  Asian Engineer is my fave ebay electronics dealer.  That is a big amp relay you got there.  My one is good for the job though.

I might opt for your design Monkey.. ;)

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2010, 02:48:16 AM »
This looks ok!

http://cgi.ebay.com/50-150-LCD-Temperature-Meter-12V-Probe-Waterproof-/250662888686?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5cac24ee



Quote
Type:LCD

Measure range:temperature -50??150?

Working power:AC/DC 8.5V-12V

Accuracy:+/-0.1?

Probe:Waterproof Cable length: 1m

Size: 79 mm x 43 mm x 24 mm


Be good for those who like to push their bikes to the max.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:55:32 AM by 317537 »

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2010, 03:11:01 PM »
Thanks guys for all the info, I might go with the big switch option first and see how it goes.  :)

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2010, 08:12:47 PM »
Hi Leslie,

Would you mind please, if I asked you to post a diagram of your relay circuit with pre charge?

I would like to see pictures too if possible.

Thanks

Mark

Offline Leslie

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2010, 12:01:12 PM »
I provide some pics but the next design is worth doing a pic up for.

Heres is the one that I can still use and its good for 84v hot.  It does a little more than just switch the bike on.  One regs goes to a separate part in my controller and allows me to use it any volts from 12, to 84v, Ive tested it at 48v to 60v.


Forgive the dusty look as its done some hard KM's.



This one is based on a voltage regulator not current regulator.  It works good, and I can run a 60v to 3.2v~12.8v DC to DC converter switcher off it at 60v. Ive used it for switcher around 300 ma amp for 750ma led lamps.  


« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:06:35 PM by 317537 »

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Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2010, 03:07:40 PM »
yes Leslie that looks good indeed, You sure are a wizard at electronics.  :)

I tried using a switch on the magic controller, between the thin red wire and the bigger one marked power. But it did nothing. The motor still turns. The only thing I noticed was all the lights went out on the throttle power meter, except the low battery one. Strange. And useless function as I could not even get the alarm function to work.

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2010, 05:01:39 PM »
Hi Leslie.

What do you think about these guys for switching?

http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=2002064

The price is steep, but I've seen them for a few euros on e-bay

Offline e-lmer

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2010, 09:00:25 PM »

Scorpion

While the witch will be great short term,
but the problem with electronic relays
is that they have a low off state current.

That means that you will eventually run the
battery down when not in use.

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2010, 09:16:23 PM »

Scorpion

While the witch will be great short term,
but the problem with electronic relays
is that they have a low off state current.

That means that you will eventually run the
battery down when not in use.




HI e-lmer

Don't solid state relays need an energising voltage like a mechanical relay? and if the energising voltage is off, won't the relay be off and not drawing any current?