GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => eBike Mods/Legalization => Topic started by: suprted1 on May 02, 2011, 08:57:50 AM
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Hello, any experience with this combo ?
BAC-028x and Magic Pie 26/28inch 48V/1000W.
Is there a regen that is troubled, recommended not used,( does it actually make a big difference if working) because of timing trouble and killing FET´s ?
There is a magic Pie with external controller, is it the same controller as internal, with another housing ?
The BAC-0282 sounds like a plug´n play 48V 50A controller with Magic Pie hubmotor, am I correct ?
I understand all warranty is probably broken, but thats OK. ( 48V,50A, 2,5KW :):), may be fun when it lasts ? 8)?)
Suprted1
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Magic Pie's already have the controller, internet or external.
54.6 volts is what you'll get from a 48v gm battery but not 50 amps.
mostlikely 20amps max continious if you purchase the program cable with it.
no 2.5 kw or are you connecting 2 controller to 1 Magic Pie?
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Magic Pie's already have the controller, internet or external.
54.6 volts is what you'll get from a 48v gm battery but not 50 amps.
mostlikely 20amps max continious if you purchase the program cable with it.
no 2.5 kw or are you connecting 2 controller to 1 Magic Pie?
I got a internal Magic Pie controller here, but I wonder if there is any difference between MP external controller and the 0282 controller.
My batteries will be 12S LiPo with 8000mAh and 30C, so there will be 240A available when needed.
Therefore I wonder what is the limits of this BAC 0282 48V 50A controller.
And I guess the MP motor also will have trouble when the power becomes to high.
I am going to buy a new MP kit, and wonder what will give me the least limitations for the lowest buck :-)
I am also considering a Turnigy Sentilon 100A ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4691 ) brushless controller, but I don't know if they will work very well with the MP motor ?
With a servo tester as a throttle. Saves a lot of space if possible, and gives a few options. They also have some ESC´s with current limiting, Turnigy Super brain....and USB/programming card options.
Suprted1
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The external controller will give you 20amps roughly max, the internals nearer to 15-16 amps
suggestions would be any of the infineon controllers, quite apt to take your battery ampage, either ebikes.ca or edward lyens, either should do fine.....
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The external controller will give you 20amps roughly max, the internals nearer to 15-16 amps
And this external controller is the same as this one ?
http://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-controllers.htm ( BAC 0282, 48V/50A )
www.goldenmotor --> Motor controller and a little down
If so I don't understand these specs.
I thought I may use this BAC-0282 and feed the MP motor with amps until something drops dead (max50A).
It is a bit easier then to start modding the controllers. (of course on my own risk)
But I also understand that there is only a shunt to be changed, and then you can push the regulator to the FET´s limits (and beyond,then dead), or until it gets too hot (and dead sa well).
This infineon 40A controller + shipping and taxes will be pretty expensive (probably 250USD+), and still a 40A limit.
Therefore I consider RC controllers.
A complete 100A regulator who handles 2-12S LiPo and programming equipment is 150USD all inclusive.(RC regulator)
But I don't know if anyone has tried regulators like these on a MP.
Suprted1
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I am also considering a Turnigy Sentilon 100A ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4691 ) brushless controller, but I don't know if they will work very well with the MP motor ?
Perhaps you should have read some of the feedback it has received:
I'd give this esc 0 stars if I could. It's complete garbage ant a total waste of $100. It lasted for 4 flights on a 70" plane before it started to make the motor squeal. Played with the settings and it shot a spark out and fried. COMPLETE GARBAGE!!! Spend your hard earned money on something reliable...
First flight was withount any trouble, temperature was normal, I keeped my hand on the controller, but in second flight controller burned. I used it in Trex 700e and I configured it to high timing mode... ESC from hobbycity I will never buy...
Piece of crap put into a SAPAC T-45 with 5s 4000ma 40c turnigy battery, The Turnigy Sentilon 100a hv started smoking in about 7 seconds, I also purchased the programing card which never worked. Do have to say the turnigy batteries all 6 were great.
Perhaps it's not a good choice. ;)
Alan
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Hey Bikemad,
Yes I would check this before buying, but there is also a lot of good RC ESC´s that gets good credit.
And the size of them is pretty neat.
So, no exactly this one doesnt seem like a good choice.
But a ESC is just a simple motor controller, and should work fine with the MP motor, I think ?
Suprted1
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RC controllers are a bit different than bike controllers
They are made looking on the lightest and minimum materials, so many times they miss enough heat-sink and other things...
most of them are made for planes or helis where there is a big air flow or boats where they install a water cooling system, or cars and then they install a fan to cool it.
So that is something that you have to think
As well the rates are a bit different they are not prepared to support big peak currents, so if a RC ESC is rated for lets say 30A can not handle more than 40A peak and for very sort periods (less than a second) so no good for a land vehicle.
So if you plan to use a RC controller then if you are going to need lets say 30A continuous then buy it for 90A or more, same for voltage.
There is some RC ESC heavy duty like this ones:
http://www.rcmaterial.com/tienda/product_info.php?cPath=108_75&products_id=1734&language=en
http://www.rcmaterial.com/tienda/product_info.php?cPath=108_75&products_id=1735&language=en
But provably price is about the same as the bike ones.
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They also lack of support for hall-sensors, but as long as you start the bike by peddeling, I guess the "cogging" issue will be gone.
I thought the HV Turnigy super brain looked good, with usb support for programming, data logging, 100A max 120A peak, 4-12S LiPo, Current limiting by programming, and timing. There will not be any need of any more then 30-60A peak at the MP anyway.
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The programation of the RC ESC do not support current limiting settings as they do not have any type of power meter inside like a shunt or so... That is one of the reasons why they blow up so easily if not well calculated for the use.
If you go on that RC ESC model I recommend you to increase the heat-sink.
Let the timing on automatic.
The motors installed on a ground vehicle like the MP have peak currents very very high at starts, for a very short of period of times, actually they are not visible on a normal amp meter like the cycle analyst, only on oscilloscopes, and those high peaks are the ones that burn out the RC controllers.
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Gonzo ;-)
Programmable settings;
Startup (Default Standard/Soft/hard)
Low Voltage cutoff (Default 12.0/15.0/18.0/21.0/24.0/27.0/30.0/33.0/36.0V)
Current limiting (Default Standard/Very sensitive/Insensitivity/Disabled)
Brake (Default None/Soft/Hard)
PWM rate (8/12/16 KHz)
Timing (Default Auto/Low/Middle/High)
Cutoff type (Default Hard/Soft)
Governor mode (Default Auto/Low/High)
There is some current limiting here, I don't know how accurate.
And I don't think there will be peaks above 120A with some reasonable use.
I will try the internal regulator, with some shunt mod, if there isnt enough power with 14S lipo batteries.
And of course a RC controller would like a nice piece of aluminium at a wented place :-)
If the original controller wont make me happy, I will try some RC controllers later, but they mainly stop at 12S lipo packages.And I don't know if the motor will limit the current at lower voltages (48 and below) with this kind of regulator (RC) ??
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Go for the external controller motor and get the 40 amp infineon from ebikes.ca. GM can delete the address if they want and I don't care about posting competitors details here, GM still are using their little 20 amp controllers which, in my opinion are useless, it's their fault they are not selling better quality higher power batteries and controllers when clearly there is hugh market for it! They could make profit instead of people buying from other companies!
Ebikes.ca have seriously reduced the regen of that controller because of some issues with batteries. They should have included a switch of some sort for different regen strengths. That is one good thing about GM's programmable controller.
Kelly controllers are good and are programmable, they are pricy but good!
The magic Pie is a seriously powerful motor for pulling or climbing steep hills, though at 40 amps + you will need really good C rated batteries like LiPo or A123 LiFeP04.
I'm waiting on hobbyking to get in new 8ah 6S zippy's.
I'm going to create a new thread on my new project, nothing GM lol so I hope they don't mind! ;D
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Hello Scorpio, I am waiting for 6 packs of 5S 8Ah Zippys :):):) Building 2 packs with 14/15 cells.
The cell price for 5S/6S was exactly the same, so I didnt want to wait for the 6S battery.
And I got a used Nakamura Summit bike for my project, which seems very good. Hydraulic disc brakes, and a sweet ride at the price.
I am considering modifying the GM internal or external controller, I bought both, because the price is nice. If no success, I will have to find another controller. Is there any detailed info on internal/external controller mods?
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Hello Scorpio, I am waiting for 6 packs of 5S 8Ah Zippys :):):) Building 2 packs with 14/15 cells.
The cell price for 5S/6S was exactly the same, so I didnt want to wait for the 6S battery.
And I got a used Nakamura Summit bike for my project, which seems very good. Hydraulic disc brakes, and a sweet ride at the price.
I am considering modifying the GM internal or external controller, I bought both, because the price is nice. If no success, I will have to find another controller. Is there any detailed info on internal/external controller mods?
HAHA Seems we'll all be waiting a long time for these zippy's they have been out of stock for ages!
Seriously though I would not even bother to mod the Magic Pie controller, (internal or external) they work fine at their rated limits of around 15 amps internal and 20 amps external. I guarantee you you will burn it!
Check out the much more powerful pie now thread, endless info there!
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Check out the much more powerful pie now thread, endless info there!
Dude that thread kinda had the shizen bumped out of it lol
I think the first 10 pages are relevant. I think we should re-visit that topic :D
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I got a lyen controller up to 65A ( more if modded traces), for $129 & 22 shipping to the UK from san fransisco
On a cold start, I can peak 52A though a rear pie on a 150KG bike ( with controller set to 30A), then continue at 25MPH for 25 Miles using about 12AH.....
He has more powerful controllers, but personally, 40 amps average is a very powerful pie.... ( wheelie powerful, if your not careful at lights)
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Hey that means your signature is wrong now ;)
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well technically, I have dual pies, just that ones in the shed awaiting sale ;D
sure ill change it soon....erm, gotta think of something witty, maybe even with out a drunk typo :D
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Then I am running with my 0282 external, the internal one didnt like my shunt mod!
The external sounded nice at freewheel testing, and did 8Amps actually,sweet rpm :):)
Ill be back with details and amps later, when ive done a proper ride in a few minutes.
testing with wattsup meter, and tightened spokes with thread lock added. And a backpack with proviant and tools :):)
Cheers
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Ill be back with details and amps later, when I've done a proper ride in a few minutes.
I'm guessing 20-21 Amps Max, but we'll just have to wait and see the actual results.
Alan
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Maxed out at 23 Amps, but actually very nice, average on flat road is 35-45kp/h depending on wind. Had to work a little to keep it above 30 in steep hills, but still allright. I would really like 5-10 amps more, then it would be perfect. But I am pretty satisfied.
Does anyone know if I may pick up another 5-10 amps through software mods ? Or do I have to do some hardware mods ?
Since the website says 48V/50A, and manual says 48V/30A.
Disatance on 15s 8000mah LiPo was about 20 kilometers, but I don't know exactly, there has been some testing++
And I have to run on 10S until I get beneath the 60V limit, tried to start at 60,15V, but NO. At 59,xx it works fine.
When running normally on full pedal, the power consumption was about 800-1100W, topped at 1300W or around there.
Both motor and controller is keeping cold, so in my opinion 30Amps would run smoothly.
50km/h is quickly achieved when slow downhill, :):):)
So its allright to bike onroad where 50km/h is the limit.
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Does anyone know if I may pick up another 5-10 amps through software mods ? Or do I have to do some hardware mods ?
Since the website says 48V/50A, and manual says 48V/30A.
And actual figures tend to vary between 16 and 30 Amps.
I don't think you are going to increase the power by just using software, a shunt mod is the only way to get more power out of your controller, but unfortunately this can also cause controller shut-down and even total failure if the power is increased too much.
I'm genuinely amazed that my controller is still alive and working, and I hope it will continue to keep going for as long as possible.
Alan
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Is there any good ideas about what to do with the shunt, to increase power ut to 25_30 Amps ?
I tried my first shunt mod on an internal controller yesterday, and it didnt work afterwards for some reason.
Im pretty steady when soldering, so I don't understand why this works perfectly for some.
what did you do to the shunt ? Details is nice... :)
If im not completely wrong, the 0282 is the same as the internal controller, just in another casing.
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I think a single loop of fine wire (a leg from an LED) soldered across the shunt, but not touching it should give you a reasonable power increase, without being too much:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Shunt.JPG)
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=3253.msg19726#msg19726) for more details of my shunt mod.
Please note that any shunt modification will invalidate the warranty and can also cause the death of a controller.
You have been warned!
Alan
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I saw this mod, when I tried on my internal controller.
I thought, since this led foot made a 5 amp increase, I added 3 led feet to my internal controller, and then might increas somewhere about 15 Amps, but the controller died :(:(
So this calculation didnt work flawless, but well, a lesson richer. The risk is a part of the fun when modding. But its always nice with some ideas when trying.
So when im ready for some more modding, ill try this a little more careful, and se what happens.
Otherwise I might remove the shunt from one of my f*%ked controllers, and check the resistance of it at work. And thereby I might find the perfect solution.
Did you do any programming as well, or just did this shunt mod and flew away with some amps extra ?
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Did you do any programming as well, or just did this shunt mod and flew away with some amps extra ?
Mine's an early Pie, so programming was not an option for me. :(
Apart from a couple of exceptions, most controllers seem to have been pre-set for the lowest voltage and the maximum current as standard, which is why you're unlikely to increase the power just by reprogramming the controller.
I think GM should correct their advertised maximum current figures to match the actual controller output, or better still, provide controllers that actually produce the stated power output. ;D
If a manufacturer sold a battery that was advertised as being a 50Ah capacity, but it turned out to only be 23Ah, people would rightly complain.
Would a car manufacturer be allowed to sell cars that were advertised as having a 50HP motor, but produced just 23HP?
I think we all know the answer to that one. ;)
Perhaps, if the advert stated, "the standard 23HP motor supplied with this car can be modified to produce up to 50HP", then it might just be acceptable.
Alan
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If I remember correctly, while I added an extra "shunt" in the (external) controller, I turned the software max continuous amps down to 7 amps and the max, I think, to 10 or 12, not that will depend of course on your own shunt you added!
But in reality this controller by design is not built for more than 20 amps, the thermal limitations of the heatsink are just too much!
@ 30 amps I killed it mainly because it got too hot!
It's a pity it didn't have some form of thermal control.
I doubt my medded internal pie controller would have lasted either.
So if modding the external controller I strongly advise anyone to take apart the controller and install it on some big heatsink, or it will definitely die!
These controllers supplied by GM are just not for high power setups, I.E more than 1kw, and with all the write ups here, it's just a waste of money for anyone to use them for non stock use! For not much money extra you can get a decent Infineon or Kelly controller. The Kelly controllers are not that expensive if you go for one of the lower power ones such as the ones for E-Bikes. And there is a load of software settings you can change on them to match them perfectly to any motor.
My suggestion is always buy a controller that's way over rated for your current setup if it's up to 1kw because 1, it will be easier on it, 2 you will always want a more powerful setup and it will save money in the long term!
Mark