GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Magzy on October 18, 2010, 12:08:39 AM
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I have just assembled my new MP this weekend.
When I put the MP under any slight load, I hear a loud knocking/ticking noise. I'm not saying this is the cause but to give you an idea what it sounds like, it sounds like a cable tie is catching against a set of closely grouped spokes - and only happens when the MP is under load.
I can lie the bike flat and there will be no noise except for a very faint whirr (as I would expect it should operate) but as soon as I put any kind of resistance on the wheel, the noise starts and only stops when there's no resistance.
This is a big issue for me because I specifically bought the MP because I wanted it to be quiet and now I'm very disappointed about this noise.
I've not taken it apart to see if there's anything inside causing the noise because frankly I would not know what I'd be looking for.
Can anyone diagnose this noise and help me fix it?
.Edit to add that the motor has just died;
.Edit to add that the Controller was replaced twice and the motor once - pinging noise is still there but is somewhat fainter. Thanks to gary GM canada for not leaving me out in the cold with this debacle.
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Have you checked the tension of the spokes? My spokes was slightly on the loose side, and made such noises when under load...
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Hmm, this could make sense, but the noise it too uniform for it to be any couple of spokes.
I checked them and they were really tight right out of the box
Also another reason I doubt that it's the spokes is that If I pedal hard without any throttle applied then I should get the noise right? but I don't get the noise. But as soon as I apply the throttle under load, I get the noise.
its almost like there's a lose wire sparking on something on the inside of the hub or a lose cable tie that is catching on something. only when there's resistance in the wheel while the throttle is on.
Help!
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Could it be one mis-aligned hall-sensor?
That would make the controller fire one of the phase pulses slightly out of phase, making a knocking sound...
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Could it be one mis-aligned hall-sensor?
That would make the controller fire one of the phase pulses slightly out of phase, making a knocking sound...
Maybe. how do I check for this?
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I guess one has to open the motor and visually inspect the positions of the hall sensors... (There are several posts here on how to open the motor.)
But i'm not an expert there; maybe others here can help you, or have better theories? :)
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Same thing happened to mine. While sitting on at full weight knocking noises but when standing on just one pedal ( scooting along) quiet.
I think it is spoke related / not great quality wheel building.
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My guess is that the noise you are experiencing is probably quite normal, as these motors are not silent and can be heard at some distance.
I think the noise is caused by the quick pulses from the coils being transmitted through the stator as they try to pull against the magnetic force of the strong permanent magnets. Because the Magic Pie has a large diameter hub, the stays (the 8 thick spokes shown below) at the centre of the stator are long enough to flex slightly with each magnetic pulse, causing a regular series of audible "pinging" noises.
(http://i.imgur.com/4dmLnax.png)
The more powerful the magnetic forces, the louder the noise will be, therefore the noise will be relative to the load on the motor.
I also think the stator noise is being amplified by the hub side covers, which can ring like a bell when removed.
But that's just my theory. ;)
Alan
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It can be heard 100m away and is quite loud.
To put this into perspective for you, I saw another MP user drive up the hill outside work a month ago, I was just 5m away from him and his motor didn't make the same knocking noise that mine has it was smooth with a faint whirr.
mine sounds like it was built by the clampets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clampets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clampets)
Now, I've just discovered that my motor doesn't work at all and the wheel has locked up - even with no batter connected to it.,
This is going from bad to worse.
:-\
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I'll bet in ball bearings again ;)
No load = silent (can only hear the engine itself)
With load = extra noise
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I'll bet in ball bearings again ;)
No load = silent (can only hear the engine itself)
With load = extra noise
This is exactly how it behaves.
so bearings?
how can I check the bearings.
and how can I get the motor to work again? its just died - i.e. no power to the wheel [I have a ping pumping out 53v at 30 AH max]
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Oh, could it be a loose coil that moved into the rotor when energized? (and now has been worn out and made open circuit?)
I think you now have no way out of opening your motor to find out; either to check for hall sensors, bearings or loose coils... (or even a wire...)
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Hello Gary
Please ask your customer to check the bearing.He should disconnect his motor.
How to know the bearing ok,or not?
One finger holds inside ring of bearing,use other finger to turn the outside of bearing.If it can run for a long time,it's okay.
Best Regards
Tom
I asked Tom about it and this was his reply. I have never had a motor apart but maybe someone here can tell us if its an easy thing to check. I don't quite understand what Tom means in testing the bearings, does it have to come apart to test?
Gary
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Hello Gary
Please ask your customer to check the bearing.He should disconnect his motor.
How to know the bearing ok,or not?
One finger holds inside ring of bearing,use other finger to turn the outside of bearing.If it can run for a long time,it's okay.
Best Regards
Tom
I asked Tom about it and this was his reply. I have never had a motor apart but maybe someone here can tell us if its an easy thing to check. I don't quite understand what Tom means in testing the bearings, does it have to come apart to test?
Gary
Gary,
A pic of Tom doing what he says will indicate if the housing needs to be taken off or the spindle disassembled and this will dictate if the task is beyond my capabilities or not - or if I have the time and the inclination to correct mistakes made by the manufacturer.
To add insult to injury, the motor has now stopped responding to any input and the wheel has ground to a halt like it's being held in place by the magnets in the wheel - even with the battery disconnected. The horn or any of the controller reset options are not working either.
What do I do with this thing now?
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Sounds like a mess to me. Ill contact you in private email and we will get this taken care of.
Gary
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the wheel has ground to a halt like it's being held in place by the magnets in the wheel - even with the battery disconnected.
Sounds like shorted phases?
Either some Fets has shorted, or phase wires has shorted due to wear against the housing (which would explain the ticking sound? :) )
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To add insult to injury, the motor has now stopped responding to any input and the wheel has ground to a halt like it's being held in place by the magnets in the wheel - even with the battery disconnected. The horn or any of the controller reset options are not working either.
What do I do with this thing now?
Magzy, try disconnecting the three thick phase wires (Yellow, Blue and Green) from the controller and see if the wheel is still tight. If the wheel moves freely with the wires disconnected, it will definitely be the controller that has failed. However, if the wheel is still tight, it will be a mechanical fault, and the wheel will need to be dismantled to locate the cause of the problem.
I'm pretty certain it will be a couple of FETs that will have failed in a shorted state inside the controller, but I'm not sure as to why this happens. If this failure has been caused by a faulty component within the controller, it should just be a simple matter of replacing the faulty controller unit. :)
But if it has been caused by a faulty hall sensor, it could well happen again with a replacement controller. :(
Please let us know what happens.
Alan
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I lost my bet again :D
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Bikemad:
I wrote earlier that he probably have no option but to open the motor, because I assume he has a MP with internal controller... :)
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the wheel has ground to a halt like it's being held in place by the magnets in the wheel - even with the battery disconnected.
Sounds like shorted phases?
Either some Fets has shorted, or phase wires has shorted due to wear against the housing (which would explain the ticking sound? :) )
Thanks for this info,
So, just to be clear, where are the Fets? and where are the phase wires? (in the controller or in the motor?)
Yes, I have an external controller.
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ok Tom from goldenmotor got back super quick (thanks tom and Gary from GM Canada)
He seems to think that the noise is most certainly the coming from the bearings. (maybe he knows they're crap?)
So, in anticipation of me opening the motor (which any reasonable biped would not be happy about having to do on a brand new new motor) and finding out that the bearings are indeed shat, what is the part number for the MP bearings? how many sets are there? One for each side? or just one set?
from my research on looking on this forum et-al, I see these as contenders: Model number "6202 2RS" http://australia.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4090417
Can anyone confirm these are the correct bearings for the MP??
I don't mind fixing this myself if it means getting on the road quicker.
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Oh, ok. :)
The Fets (Field Effect Transistor) are inside the controller, and are - simply said - managing the big currents between the battery and motor.
The phase wires are the 3 thick wires from the controller to the motor.
If you disconnect those 3 wires from the controller and the wheel then turns freely, one or more of the fets in the controller are broken. (for non-electronic-guys; the controller are broken ;) )
If the wheel still are locked up without the 3 phase wires connected, there's a chance that either the phase wires are shorted/damaged; on the way down or inside the motor, or in worst case - one or more of the coils inside the motor has become loose and gotten shorted due to wear against the motor housing....
At least; this is my theories... ;)
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Oh, ok. :)
The Fets (Field Effect Transistor) are inside the controller, and are - simply said - managing the big currents between the battery and motor.
The phase wires are the 3 thick wires from the controller to the motor.
If you disconnect those 3 wires from the controller and the wheel then turns freely, one or more of the fets in the controller are broken. (for non-electronic-guys; the controller are broken ;) )
If the wheel still are locked up without the 3 phase wires connected, there's a chance that either the phase wires are shorted/damaged; on the way down or inside the motor, or in worst case - one or more of the coils inside the motor has become loose and gotten shorted due to wear against the motor housing....
At least; this is my theories... ;)
Thanks for this, it makes sense now. I'll be opening the motor tonight /tomorrow and having a look.
I'll get back with the findings.
Magz
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Right, so I remove the three phase wires -- blue, green and yellow, and the wheel moves freely. Reconnecting them renders the wheel to become stuck again regardless of whether the battery is connected or not.
so sounds like the controller is fried? ???
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Magzy, email Tom again and explain what you have done, and ask if he can get a replacement controller sent direct to you from a local dealer to save time.
Alan
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Magzy: it sounds like you have found the reason for the bike's no-go... ;)
But what about the ticking sound? Could it be the reason for the controller failing? That's what worries me... :-\
Edit:
Since you kinda' have a Go for opening the motor from Tom, I would open it to inspect the innards. ;) Then you could check the bearings and inspect the coils and verify that none of the wires are able to touch the rotating parts of the housing.
But that's me... ;) Kind of suspicious that you hear a noise from the motor, and not long after the controller blows... :-/
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But what about the ticking sound? Could it be the reason for the controller failing? That's what worries me... :-\
Cornelius, that concerned me too:
I'm pretty certain it will be a couple of FETs that will have failed in a shorted state inside the controller, but I'm not sure as to why this happens. If this failure has been caused by a faulty component within the controller, it should just be a simple matter of replacing the faulty controller unit. :)
But if it has been caused by a faulty hall sensor, it could well happen again with a replacement controller. :(
I don't know if it's possible for a hall sensor to have been fitted facing the wrong way, but if that were the case, it might cause the polarity to be switched the wrong way on the corresponding phase wire, which could account for the loud knocking/ticking noise.
I'm certainly not convinced there is a bearing problem, and I would wait and see how the motor sounds with the replacement controller fitted before doing anything else to the motor.
If the controller was responsible for its own failure, a new controller should completely cure the problem!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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Magzy, email Tom again and explain what you have done, and ask if he can get a replacement controller sent direct to you from a local dealer to save time.
Alan
No need for that, Magzy is one of my customers. Since I am now convinced that at least the controller has failed I'll be sending one out today! I have no spare bearings, but as you suggested it might be a good idea to try the controller first.
Gary
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http://australia.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4090417
Can anyone confirm these are the correct bearings for the MP??
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Magzy, the bearings you've found seem to be a different size to this one:
I checked my MP today and this is the result:
MP part number is MP-1-270-10050059.
The bearing is a 6302RS; 42mm diameter, 15mm hole, 13mm width. Available from McMaster-Carr in the US. I ordered a pair today, will report on the results. At least on the end I looked at, the bearing is secured by a circlip and is not a press fit so can be removed very simply. Whether this is true on the other end, I don't know yet since I haven't removed the other cover.
Michael
Hope this helps.
Alan
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Magzy; check your bearings before ordering new ones, both type and if you really need new ones. :)
I'm against wasting money before the reason for the problem are located... ;D
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Update with Pics.
I opened the motor just now and here's my findings. :(
My workshop
(http://imgur.com/HmmPIl.jpg)
My workbench
(http://imgur.com/v5526l.jpg)
Freewheel side Bearing is OK.
(http://imgur.com/hdIC2l.jpg)
Spinning the freewheel side bearing on my finger with ease. No drag.
(http://imgur.com/xsreXl.jpg)
Cable side bearing is slightly more difficult to turn - in comparison to the freewheel bearing side.
It is also very slightly loose, allowing the whole rotor to move slightly.
(http://imgur.com/xHakvl.jpg)
Inspect for any damage/ rubbing on the magnets. Hmmm...
(http://imgur.com/nQhxbl.jpg)
A closer look... lots of scratches on the magnets where the lose bearing has allowed the rotor to rub against the stator.
(http://imgur.com/zrrREl.jpg)
A look on the other side...
(http://imgur.com/3NH25l.jpg)
no damage here on this side.
(http://imgur.com/m8upsl.jpg)
???
I can't see any evidence of the wires rubbing against the housing or any burned out wires of any sort...
Now if I was to get a new bearing set myself from RS, I'd have to put the same make/model on either side because this just makes sound engineering sense - they will also be more reliable.
The good bearing on the freewheel side would have to come out but it's stuck solid fast, there's no way it's coming out without a lot of force.
Also, to get that damaged bearing off the motor i'd have to un-wire all the connectors going to the damaged controller, replace the bearing, then re wire the connections which while is not beyond my abilities, is a massive pain in the arse.
There's also the possibility that the rubbing of the motor against the magnets has caused other issues that have yet to be seen.
The fact that this motor is brand new with less than 1KM on the clock and the motor is unfit for use and the controller has blown is a massive let down.
:'(
However, I have compete faith in Gary from GM Canada and Tom from GM and that they won't leave me out in the cold and will expedite my situation by any means necessary.
:)
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Now, how about that. :)
Swapping both bearings would, as you say, make good sense. Even if that good bearing are barely used. Getting that freewheel side bearing out should be easy by using a tube that fits the inner ring of the bearing, knocking it out from the freewheel side. (No worry about damaging the bearing, since you wont be using it. ;) Try knocking it out evenly though, so the bearing seat in the housing are not damaged. )
I would suggest assembling the new bearings on the axle on both sides, using again a tube that fits exactly over the inner ring of the bearing/outside the axle. When inserting bearings, never hit the outer ring of the bearing when fitting it on an axle, and never hit the inner ring when fitting it in the housing.
Now, why did the controller failed?!
It could just have been a weak component failing due to excessive load when the stator rubbed against the rotor, and it could also be some of the coil wires getting its protective varnish rubbed off, and getting shorted against the rotor.
The latter shouldn't be a problem with new bearings, but i'd inspect the coils closer, just to be sure; look for a lighter copper color...
Btw:
Which type bearing is it? 6202 or 6302? :) I can't quite make it out from the pictures...
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It is also very slightly loose, allowing the whole rotor to move slightly.
Got to love that. Ha.
Great work there man.
Yes I thought if the wheel felt solid then it may of been electro mechanical. Hubs can make all sorts of strange noises.
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Assuming Tom turns around and sends me a new motor, what's the lead time on getting replacements?
Is it still 10 days or do they send them by sea mail. (I don't want to wait 3 months for a boat to arrive)
Also, will it be just the motor or the motor and the rim - (i don't fancy having to respoke a whole wheel)
I've yet to get a response from Tom regarding the above and kind of feel a bit left out in the cold to be honest.
I know they will sort it in the end but it's the "not knowing how long" and not getting a response from Tom about how long it's going to take which is such a massive disappointment.
Summer is here in Australia! 24C today and perfectly sunny but I'm stuck on the sweaty bus when I should be on my bike. :(
Magzy
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There is a good chance the hall sensors failed due to the abrasion and vibrations, I think maybe you should get some more parts sent from Gary. Im sure he will put some more focus on your problems here.
I suspect a controller would come by air mail.
May be wise to replace the hall sensors before the controller. Its not too hard as the hardest part is taking the wheel apart and to fix its doing all the right thing in the right order of operation.
We can sort this mess out, please have faith.
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There is a good chance the hall sensors failed due to the abrasion and vibrations, I think maybe you should get some more parts sent from Gary. Im sure he will put some more focus on your problems here.
I suspect a controller would come by air mail.
May be wise to replace the hall sensors before the controller. Its not too hard as the hardest part is taking the wheel apart and to fix its doing all the right thing in the right order of operation.
We can sort this mess out, please have faith.
Hmm, what *exactly* is a hall sensor? is there a simpletons explanation as to what it does and looks like?
Magzy
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Hall sensors are what detect the motor position. They are 3 electronic chips glued into the stator formers that monitor the magnetic poles and thus talk to the controller and the controller phase wires oprate the motor in good timing,
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2632.0;attach=3523;image)
(http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F0G/I5MT/F3SYTODK/F0GI5MTF3SYTODK.MEDIUM.jpg)
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/control-systems/1693 (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/control-systems/1693)
http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf (http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf)
The SS41 HoneyWell is a good part number.
I am not entirely sure if 5 beeps superseeds3 beeps and on one of my Pie it doesnt beep at all.
The controller can work in sensorless mode but its less smoothn in operation, and those hall sensors can be difficult in some parts to get easily, if you get my drift.
All my MP functions work ATM touch wood except for one motor wont beep when I unplug say the throttle connector.
But here is a question I'd like to know the answer too.
Say if a controller hall sensor failed and a FET would the controller give 3 beeps then five, what happens when there are multiple errors?
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Thanks for the info but If I was an electronics engineer then I'm sure this would be easy.
But it looks far too advanced for me. Sorry but thanks anyway.
Also, I really don't have the time or inclination to put right errors made by the manufacturer. Even taking the wheel apart took the best part of a day and replacing hall sensors looks way way over my head.
I coult take it to an electrical engineer with all the correct equipment but this would cost upwards of a couple of hundred bucks.
As far as I'm concerned, I have paid a fair chunk of cash on a box of bits consisting of a broken controller and a dismantled Magic Pie a broken bearing which caused broken Hall sensors and top top this off, silence from Golden Motor staff on *exactly* what they're going to do about it.
Granted, I have a new controller on the way but It might be coming on the back of a camel for all I know. and any reasonable attempt to contact Gary from GM Canada or Tom from GM china have been met with silence over the past 7 days. I would have expected at least - 'yes were working on it bear with us' but to be IGNORED is not only unacceptable, but insulting.
Do they not realise that they are committing fiscal suicide by treating customers (not just me but others) like this?
Thanks,
Magzy
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Granted, I have a new controller on the way but It might be coming on the back of a camel for all I know. and any reasonable attempt to contact Gary from GM Canada or Tom from GM china have been met with silence over the past 7 days. I would have expected at least - 'yes were working on it bear with us' but to be IGNORED is not only unacceptable, but insulting.
Hi Magzy
The controller was sent air mail on Oct 21st. 6-10 business day service. Ill send you an email with the tracking number. It wont help as all you see is the day is was shipped. This method of shipping does not have updated tracking as a feature. I posted here on the 21st when I shipped it as well as responded to your email on the 23rd. So im not sure where the "no word in 7 days " comes from. Maybe from Tom but not from me. I also am not getting a response from Tom now on resolving your issue. But rest assured I am working on it.
Gary
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Good on you Gary, doing this without feet and all. Highly impressed :)
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Gary - Thanks for sending the controller - it arrived yesterday and I fitted it on the reassembled the motor to test it out an it fixed the no-go issue.
I bent a couple of the clips and lost another in the bushes as it flew off so I'm not so sure if it's safe anymore - the whole thing wobbles moves across the axle leading to the question of if it's safe to ride or not (?)
The loud electrical Pinging/knocking noise is still there as it was before and the torque is just not that impressive either. (I could in all honestly accelerate quicker than this MP)
I don't think the bearing is the source of the noise because it’s more of an *electrical* pinging noise and Bikemad suggests it could be failed hall sensors but to replace these myself would be way over my head.
I'm now at a dead end with this motor.
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But what about the ticking sound? Could it be the reason for the controller failing? That's what worries me... :-\
I don't know if it's possible for a hall sensor to have been fitted facing the wrong way, but if that were the case, it might cause the polarity to be switched the wrong way on the corresponding phase wire, which could account for the loud knocking/ticking noise.
I'm certainly not convinced there is a bearing problem, and I would wait and see how the motor sounds with the replacement controller fitted before doing anything else to the motor.
If the controller was responsible for its own failure, a new controller should completely cure the problem!
Alan
Hi Alan, I'm beginning to think that the bearing is a non-issue too. I mean it spins, but not freely when you give it a whiz BUT it doesn't make any noise!
The new controller only fixed the broken controller and the motor now behaves exactly as it did before the first controller failed. (loud knocking/ pinging noise when under load)
I'm very reluctant to use the motor now because it may fry the controller again.
I had a look at the Hall sensors and they have not been damaged by the lose bearing because they're all slightly inset into the stator and the white sealant is still intact.
This leading me to believe that they could have indeed been fitted the wrong way or something because the noise is too uniform across the speed spectrum of the motor. It only happens when electricity is going into the wheel and it's under any load or acceleration.
for example. Picture this. If I stand beside the bike and put the throttle on so it does a small wheelie but I hold on to the handlebars and introduce a little load into the wheel, I get the pinging noise. I can slow this process right down where there is very minimal throttle and very minimal movement and get a distinct electrical clicking/pinging noise who's frequency is inversely proportional to the distance the wheel is turned.
Doing the same with just the pedals and no throttle will not produce any electrical/ pinging noise.
It's an *electrical* noise not a *mechanical* or bearing one (although the bearing is shagged)
GM are refusing point blank to do replace it.
It's 2 months today since I ordered this motor and haven't used it yet. Maybe I should resign myself to having been ripped off by Golden Motor to the tune of a few hundred dollars. At least I'll be able to have some closure on the whole disappointing episode.
Magz
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Magzy there seems to be too much wrong with your wheel, I think you deserve a full replacement to be honest.
If it was just a controller or hall sensors Id say fix it. But there are three major problems with your kit.
First mechanical. Second electrical, and third, the first and second are making more problems.
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You could try different colour combination's of your phase wires. Dont be to harsh on the throttle when testing it. Either it will work, or not work well, or not work at all..
Try the phase wires first.
BYG BGY GBY GYB YBG YGB
Then try the hall sensors but in different combination to the above. Muzza posted a spreadsheet here (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2261.msg11943#msg11943) of all the possible combination's. Dont change the red or black wires.
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This is my first post. I WAS getting quite fired up about the "Magic Pie". Whilst I applaud the openness of the discussion about poor Magzy's motor, I AM APPALLED at the way this tale of woe has unfolded and the way he has been treated. Surely he should have been offered a straight replacement unit since his was obviously not fit for purpose. To those who read this forum prior to purchase it will only have served to defer any likely buying until events like this do not occurr.
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Magzy, You certainly have been very unlucky with your kit and I'm in total agreement with Leslie on this one. If a simple cure cannot be found, then I too feel that the wheel should be replaced under the warranty as the fault must be somewhere within the wheel if it's not crossed wires in the harness.
As I haven't seen the wiring on the external Pies, I don't know what connector are used, or what the chances are of a couple of wires being inadvertently crossed during the manufacturing process, but I guess it could be possible.
It could be easy to mix up the three separate ends of the windings, as these wires as they are plain copper wires without coloured sleeving.
The internal controller has short lengths of coloured sleeving on the ends to show which is which, but I presume that these wires on the external controller Pies are soldered directly to the three coloured phase wires which exit via the axle.
If the the colours for the phase wires or the hall sensors have somehow been mixed up somewhere between the stator and the controller, it should be possible to find the correct configuration by following Muzza's suggestions (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2261.msg11943#msg11943).
Did you by any chance take any close up photos of the wiring connections while the wheel was dismantled? as this might help to check if the hall sensor wires are in the correct sequence at he wheel end.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG)
If you click the image to enlarge it, the colours of the hall sensor wires are more obvious.
I think your concerns about damaging the replacement are completely justified, and I personally would not want to use a motor that was making loud noises and was not running correctly!
If you try the different wire combinations suggested by Muzza and find no combination that works correctly, then Tom/GM will have to do something to rectify the fault!
A short video might be enough to convince Tom that there is definitely a fault with the running of the motor.
Please keep us informed of what happens.
Alan
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Good on you Gary, doing this without feet and all. Highly impressed :)
This thread is very unnerving for myself, as i've already had a manufacturing problem before i've even got my bike on the road, and am in a similar positon to Magzy as I have very little understanding of electrics and electronics. i opted for golden motor due to it's user friendly kit package. I have since wished I had stumped up the extra £200 and got it from Alien Ocean in the UK.
I agree with you Magzy, there could not be any worse publicity for the company and their product than leaving customers high and dry after paying out substantial amounts of money and giving out what seem at first glance to be duff gear. To be fair, I have had great support from people on this forum and have had sufficient communication with Tom to get things sorted.
My pie kit arrived in the UK with a manufacturing fault on the wheel. How it was missed during production and when they spoked the wheel is completely and utterly beyond me. It makes me feel very wary of how well put together the rest of the kit is due to such a big tear in the wheel rim not being noticed or even worse, being over looked or ignored.
By the way, on a lighter note, the quote above made me laugh out loud! :D :D :D
Andrew
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I also agree that this deserves a replacement. I have been trying to have one sent since he opened his motor. I have been in contact with Magzy in private email and have been giving him updates on my discussions with GM China. I must say one thing for sure about Magzy as he has been patient and a perfect gentlemen in private email and in the forum. honestly I don't now if I would be the same.
It seems GM China does not want to replace his motor. Instead they want to send me a bearing in an order already coming to me and then me ship it to Magzy to avoid any shipping costs. I told them this is not acceptable, why should he have to wait so long. I offerered Magzy a bearing from here from an out of the box failed pie, but he told me he will pick one up locally. I will refund him any cost for doing so.
I don't understand why a customer would receive a motor that has as many things wrong with it as this one and he is expected to do several repairs on it even though it is brand new. Also with no idea if this will resolve it. I am very frustratrated and Im sure they will not enjoy reading this. For me to ship a complete new wheel from here would cost a fortune unless it gets dissasembled and shipped by sea and this can take months, just ask Leslie.
Anyway I will stand by Magzy and this issue will be resolved, Maybe sending a motor from here with no spokes or rim would be more cost effective. But China is alot closer to AU then I am. When I got into this I was told warranty replacements would be done at no cost to me. They would cover any product failure and shipping cost. But it seems that is not going to be the case.
Gary
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Gary,
As a GM distributor your honesty and help on this forum is second to none. You put China to shame.
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I don't understand why a customer would receive a motor that has as many things wrong with it as this one and he is expected to do several repairs on it even though it is brand new. Also with no idea if this will resolve it. I am very frustratrated and Im sure they will not enjoy reading this. For me to ship a complete new wheel from here would cost a fortune unless it gets dissasembled and shipped by sea and this can take months, just ask Leslie.
Anyway I will stand by Magzy and this issue will be resolved, Maybe sending a motor from here with no spokes or rim would be more cost effective. But China is alot closer to AU then I am. When I got into this I was told warranty replacements would be done at no cost to me. They would cover any product failure and shipping cost. But it seems that is not going to be the case.
Gary
This concerns me a lot. I never received a good answer about my old 48v battery. I replaced it with a new one from my pocket while I still waiting for some answer. Gary, how do you manage to receive quick e-mail answers from GM? To me take weeks after several e-mails sent...
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Yes and the wheel is damaged as a result of the bad bearing.
There must be a better solution. If its goes south, and the bearing still doesn't get this Pie rolling. Send it to me and I will test the windings and if its worth it I will repair it for free.. I have a lot of things I test it with and I will see if the motor is wired correct. If Magzy can manage to get a replacement hub I will buy it from him for the price I can get before I sell it, after it is repaired.
What state do you live in Magzy? and what state is the motor, I don't care about circlips and cables and stuff, just the paint job?
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If this is not suitable.
Or! ???
Let's arrange a collection and have a new hub sent from GM CA. Gary may want to help and test the motor before he sends it.
To keep the freight price down it may take a little by sea to get there or you may just get a motor with no rim. As long as the motor is paid for us members only need to go out of pocket for $20 or $50 or so each.
I will donate $50. If this collection is agreed upon I can send it to GM CA PayPal account..
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Let's arrange a collection and have a new hub sent from GM CA. Gary may want to help and test the motor before he sends it.
Leslie, this really should not be necessary, Magzy purchased a brand new motor and GM should at least have the courtesy and decency to honour their warranty and get this problem sorted in a quick and acceptable manner. Magzy has already spent a good deal of his time and effort trying to put right something that should have been working 100% in the first place. If Magzy had deliberately abused and damaged a kit that had been delivered in good working order, then I could accept that GM might be a bit reluctant to replace any damaged goods, but this is obviously not the case in this instance.
Gary is a GM dealer, he is not the manufacturer and is not directly responsible for any warranty on the goods that he sells, and I really don't feel that he should have to put his hand in his own pocket regarding this, although I fully understand and appreciate why he is prepared to put himself out for one of his own customers. Gary is a decent guy who actually cares about his business and his customers. Unlike many people nowadays, Gary also has a conscience, and therefore cannot help but feel responsible, and I'm guessing that he also has no desire to have his excellent reputation as a GM dealer tarnished, simply because GM themselves seem unable to recognise and accept that this problem is actually their responsibility!
This concerns me a lot. I never received a good answer about my old 48v battery. I replaced it with a new one from my pocket while I still waiting for some answer.
Bruno, I find this very hard to believe, your battery fault was first reported at least five months ago, and GM have still not managed to sort the problem out, or provide a replacement?
Come on GM, this sort of thing is definitely unacceptable, and it's certainly no way to look after your own loyal dealers! I think it's time for GM to step up to the mark and start showing that they really are a reputable company, before they jeopardise many more sales! ::)
I hope for everyone's sake that GM will get their act together and quickly come up with a satisfactory solution to both of these genuine warranty faults.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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Agreed.
And if we started passing around the hat for these cases when and where would it stop?
When I opened my PIE parcels I was absolutely amazed with what my money had bought me. It's all down to whether it works or not.
Just a couple of thngs would make this kit no:1 and worth quite a few pennies more than we are paying ATM.
The product innovation and quality in general has improved but the service believe it or not has also improved slightly, There was a time nobody ever got an email response.
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Gary,
As a GM distributor your honesty and help on this forum is second to none. You put China to shame.
Thank You for that. I can understand GM does not want to get scammed by somone claiming there motor failed just to get a second one for free. But in cases like this where it is so obvious its a legitamit claim . lets get it resolved.
Gary
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This concerns me a lot. I never received a good answer about my old 48v battery. I replaced it with a new one from my pocket while I still waiting for some answer. Gary, how do you manage to receive quick e-mail answers from GM? To me take weeks after several e-mails sent...
I too deal with a communication problem with GM. About 2 weeks ago Tom was everywhere in the forum. Posting and helping in many issues. I thought "Wow things are looking up". This lasted for about a week and now there are no post from Tom in at least a week again.
5 months, no resolve on your battery and your a dealer, Thats unaceptable.
Gary
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I will donate $50. If this collection is agreed upon I can send it to GM CA PayPal account..
Leslie, your one hell of a guy! I understand you love of ebikes and wanting to help out others. When I read your post about " I filed it down until I could run my tongue along it " I think wow this guy really loves his bike. Please don't do this though. This is a GM issue that should be resolved by GM. Trust me, It will be resolved, unfortunatly now in an embarassing manor.
Gary
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Gary is a GM dealer, he is not the manufacturer and is not directly responsible for any warranty on the goods that he sells, and I really don't feel that he should have to put his hand in his own pocket regarding this, although I fully understand and appreciate why he is prepared to put himself out for one of his own customers. Gary is a decent guy who actually cares about his business and his customers. Unlike many people nowadays, Gary also has a conscience, and therefore cannot help but feel responsible, and I'm guessing that he also has no desire to have his excellent reputation as a GM dealer tarnished, simply because GM themselves seem unable to recognise and accept that this problem is actually their responsibility!
Alan
Thanks for that Alan. You are correct, these issues really do bother me. I spend alot of time trying to resolve them and it is very frustrating when GM does not live up to what they agreed to when I signed on. The most frustrating is when you don’t even get a response, as many people in the forum can relate to. Something has to change. GM needs to move from the position of "lets fix it as cheaply as possible" to "lets do the right thing".
It seems I have set off a bit of a firestorm here. This was not intentional. Time to move to another topic now that is not so negative. The reason I come to this forum is to learn and appreciate from the skills of the other forumers. Sometimes I even get to help out with simple problems or questions. I like that. Many of these threads are truly inspiring. It is unfortunate the forum gets littered with issues like this.
Gary
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At the same time this ebike thing isnt for everyone. To think you could use a GM motor from the box to replace a car isnt on my books easy to do.
For the price I certainly got what I expected. And I expected I would need to do a few things to my kit before it could do exactly what I need it to do.
I am totally happy with what I got and I don't care for the after sales service that GM china puts up. But I look at all the connectors and wires and all the lovely other stuff and still think its was a great deal, it all comes to life when the wind is in your hair crusing at 40+ kph..
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GM themselves seem unable to recognise and accept that this problem is actually their responsibility!
Alan
One further thought. If you bought a car, a fridge, a stereo or any other real life purchase and it failed. The manufacturer would supply all the parts and pay the dealer to fix it. If the items is beyond reasonable repair the dealer would replace it and the dealer would receive another from the manufacturer at no cost to the dealer including any shipping costs. Does anyone know of any other business that this would not be the situation? I think not...
Gary
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Update: Spent all day Sunday replacing the good quality bearings I bought locally.
The short story is TOM from Golden Motor, the guy who looks after warranties told me that the bearings were broke and need to be replaced. This was after he told me that the broken controller must have been my battery (a Brand new Ping v 2.5) - which indeed was fine.
Replacing the bearings did nothing to address the electrical pinging noise.
The pinging noise filmed in Full HD and is here (Please note the difference between the freewheel noise and the Pinging noise - they are different)
This was filmed just before replacing the bearings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRErVvVD4E4&feature=player_embedded
Pics...for the morbidly interested
Herewith, a pair of NTN Bearings $10 each - a whole day's pay :(
(http://imgur.com/JArEwl.jpg)
My workshop
(http://imgur.com/HJrzTl.jpg)
Freewheel side bearing came out with a bit of hard knocking from the other side it took a bit of damage but the GM MP bearings are surprisingly good quality and didn't sustain great damage. New bearing went in with the persuasion illustrated in the next pics..
(http://imgur.com/O6pk8l.jpg)
Gentle taps with a heavy rubber implement...
(http://imgur.com/9wbeml.jpg)
...didn't work and needed a bit more force. Note how I was using the old GM MP bearing as a template to spread the force of the hit around the outside of the New bearing...
(http://imgur.com/316n1l.jpg)
Nearly home
(http://imgur.com/lWQJPl.jpg)
First bearing is now flush with the wheel. I'm happy with this side. Now for the other side.
(http://imgur.com/rKX04l.jpg)
Now, This bearing is going to be more tricky. The wire coming out of the hub needs to be threaded back into the bearing and the axle so it can come off.
(http://imgur.com/Hx5idl.jpg)
I take a picture of this because I knwo that these wires need to come out of the socket. This picture is so I know exactly which colour goes into which socket when I re-attach the wires after putting the new bearing on.
(http://imgur.com/gIQ7tl.jpg)
using the smallest allen key to unclip the clips- they come out with a bit of pulling once you hear the dislodging click.
(http://imgur.com/JIThxl.jpg)
Having pulled all the wires (the phase and hall wires) to the bearing. I have to thread each one, one by one through the gap between the axle and the bearing. No mean feat. The sharp axle has threaded bare some of the wires - these will need repairing.
(http://imgur.com/clDTbl.jpg)
Got it off - Finally (after moving everything inside because a thunderstorm came over)
(http://imgur.com/NMyxEl.jpg)
Some Damage on the GoldenMotor Bearing that I didn't notice before. To be honest, this dark casing is just a plastic casing that seems to keep out small bits. The bearing itself seems to be in good working operation apart from being slightly harder to turn than the other one.
(http://imgur.com/hHZORl.jpg)
New bearing feels reassuringly snug.
(http://imgur.com/SyW8gl.jpg)
While I'm at it... If Golden Motor ever go into bankruptcy , they can rest safe in the knowledge that they make great razor blades on their axles.
(http://imgur.com/osjEHl.jpg)
For the benefit of anyone thinking of how the hall sensors look on the MP with external controller here's the hall sensors in white silicone - undamaged i.e. nothing has scraped against them.
(http://imgur.com/JuDYPl.jpg)
Wires going into the Hall sensors - and my finger which was cut by the razorblade edges of the axle.
(http://imgur.com/53XFGl.jpg)
My reassembled Magic Pie with the Golden Motor bearings - which in all honesty, are of very good quality and not damaged. But, alas, I have wasted a day doing this
(http://imgur.com/sYCu7l.jpg)
The new bearings did not get rid of the pinging noise. But hopefully someone will be able to use this post at some point in the future if they need to replace the bearings.
In any case, I am still with a noisy motor exactly as it is in the youtube video above and can't use it because it may fry the controller again.
Your Move Golden Motor 8)
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Hi Magzy
I refunded you 25 dollars to cover the cost of those bearings and any paypal fees.
I must say very impressive post on your work! Why is everyone better at this then me? Great pictures, video and detailed description of the bearing replacements. I will send you a private email in a few minutes.
Gary
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Hi Magzy
I refunded you 25 dollars to cover the cost of those bearings and any paypal fees.
I must say very impressive post on your work! Why is everyone better at this then me? Great pictures, video and detailed description of the bearing replacements. I will send you a private email in a few minutes.
Gary
Wow - You didn't need to do that Gary but thanks anyway.
and thanks for your prompt response.
Just need to sort the noise out now.. any joy with GM on a replacement?
I'm hesitant to keep posting on here because it moves it to the top of the page and gives GM bad publicity. I don't want to stir up any hornets nests in that regard - just want a working motor. i.e. what I paid for.
Regards,
Magzy
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When I read your post about " I filed it down until I could run my tongue along it " I think wow this guy really loves his bike.
Gary, It's not love, Leslie was just tasting his Pie to confirm that it had not been overcooked by his shunt modification. ;D
The pinging noise filmed in Full HD and is here (Please note the difference between the freewheel noise and the Pinging noise - they are different)
This was filmed just before replacing the bearings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRErVvVD4E4&feature=player_embedded
The new bearings did not get rid of the pinging noise.
In any case, I am still with a noisy motor exactly as it is in the youtube video above and can't use it because it may fry the controller again.
Magzy, I don't think you're going to like what I'm about to say, but the noise I am hearing on the video does not sound bad to me, and I would not have described it as a "Loud knocking noise".
I have a Magic Pie with the internal controller which I would say makes a very similar sound to yours, although I must admit it is not quite as loud as yours. As I've already mentioned, it is my experience that these motors are not silent and they can be heard from some distance away.
After hearing your motor, my honest opinion is that the pinging noise coming from your motor in the video is perfectly normal, although I suspect the noise is slightly noisier on your Magic Pie because it has the external controller.
Magic Pies with internal controller have a semicircular heatsink plate bolted to the stator spokes as shown here:
(https://i.imgur.com/GPQ30s3.jpg)
This plate (whether intentionally designed to do so or not) also helps to stiffen up the stator spokes and therefore reduces the amount of torsional wind up within the stator itself when under load. I would expect the resultant pinging noise on the internal Pies to be less noticeable because of it.
I run mine mainly on a 25.9V pack, which also reduces this noise because there is less power being produced by the motor.
I still don't know why your original controller failed, but having listened to your noise, I am no longer concerned about possible further damage due to continued use of your motor.
I would give it a good run and see how it actually performs, as I think you may be expecting more low speed acceleration than this 1HP motor actually produces.
I realise this is probably not the response you were expecting, but I have tried to be as honest as I can be.
Alan
EDIT: Picture link repaired
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have you listened to the motor on the clip as a comparison...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjKr6klQD3U
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Magzy,
it must be said that it does sound really loud to me. Now you know why all MP official videos have sound tracks over the audio ;)
I have not got my Pie up and running just yet, but as soon as I do I will film with sound the motor running, although mine has an internal controller. If it is as loud as yours, and that is normal, then I will not be impressed, as this will certainly not add to my stealth plan for commuting through city traffic
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have you listened to the motor on the clip as a comparison...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjKr6klQD3U
This is what mine sounds like when it's not under load and to be honest, if mine sounded like this all the time then I would be happy.
As soon as I put load on it then I get the loud pinging noise and it is far from silent.
After takig it apart twice, on advice from GM, the internal magnets have all scratched (one has chipped completely) - and all the wires have been damaged by the sharp axle. The outside had multiple scratches all over it from where I've been working around it ( I don't have a workshop) even If I was to get it working correctly then I would not feel like I have a new motor.
Bikemad - seeing as have some influence with Golden Motor, perhaps you can get them to change the meaning of this sentence to it's opposite?
(http://imgur.com/3CWK5.jpg)
and change this page http://www.goldenmotor.com/magicpie/compare.html so the warranty for the Magic pie says "Unknown" from "1 Year, Upgradable to 2 Years"
I don't know about China but in Australia and probably most other countries in the western world, this would contravene the trade descriptions act or advertising act and would in all honesty be false advertising and possibly illegal.
The MP, for me has not been quiet and reliable and the warranty on the hub has been (so far) non existent. Instead I have been lied to and led down the garden path in opening it twice.
This is a huge disappointment and anyone thinking of buying a MP from GM should honestly take my experience as a stern warning of what to expect if the hub goes sour.
Regards,
Magzy
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I'm starting to wish i'd gone for the 1000w HBS motor and external controller :-\
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Can any other Magic Pie owner conform that the MP emits a loud pinging noise when it's in use?
Like my neighbor said yesterday "It sounds like an unattended fishing line, I can hear it while I'm watching T.V."
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Bikemad, this is the description of the MP's problem from the first post in this thread.
When I put the MP under any slight load, I hear a loud knocking/ticking noise. I'm not saying this is the cause but to give you an idea what it sounds like, it sounds like a cable tie is catching against a set of closely grouped spokes - and only happens when the MP is under load.
I stand by what I said in the first instance and that I have bought a defective Magic Pie from Golden Motor that emits a loud noise and they are doing nothing to remedy the problem. I doubt very much the stator arms are "bending" because this defect will even happen when there's very limited load on the wheel.
For example, if I turn the bike upside down and apply the smallest amount of throttle and put the cruise on so the wheel is turning like once every 5 seconds - this is really slow ok there's no way in the world that the stator arms are bending or flexing under pressure ok?
Now, if I put my finger in the spokes and slow the wheel down very slightly then I get the pinging noise. One ping for each 3rd magnet of movement i'd say. So, from what you are saying is that my finger, slowing down the wheel, is causing the stator arms to **flex**??? You know what I think this is? I think this is bullsh!t. I've had that motor apart twice and there is no way that it's stretching from the force of my finger.
Just for one second think however, if it was stretching, I'd hear it rubbing against the rotor wall and not pinging like a ratchet.
The last option I have is to test the Hall sensors and test for continuity in the wires - as Bikemad says,
...if they have been wired the wrong way around then this would account for the pinging noise.
After ruling out accusations of "defective Battery" and "Broken Bearings "
which is it? "twisting cast iron stator" or "defective hall sensor / hall sensor wiring"?
Could it be that the controller is configured for another smaller motor like the HBS? Can I reconfigure the controller to my hub in any way?
I'd like to see your Magic pie on youtube making the same pinging noise as mine when under load.
Regards,
Magz
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the warranty on the hub has been (so far) non existent.
Hmm, I do understand your frustration. But I'm not quite sure this statement is true. I have already sent you a controller and refunded you the money you spent on bearings. I am also still trying to get you a replacement from GM China and if they don't do it I will. So things may not be moving as well as either of us woiuld like it, but its not over yet!
Best Regards
Gary
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the warranty on the hub has been (so far) non existent.
Hmm, I do understand your frustration. But I'm not quite sure this statement is true. I have already sent you a controller and refunded you the money you spent on bearings. I am also still trying to get you a replacement from GM China and if they don't do it I will. So things may not be moving as well as either of us woiuld like it, but its not over yet!
Best Regards
Gary
Sorry Gary I said the hub i.e. the motor itself which is defective. I know you've replaced the controller in lightning fast speed and been very supportive and this has not gone unnoticed by people on the forum and myself.
I appreciate all your efforts in attempting to getting this sorted over a problem that's really not your fault.
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Thanks for this MEB it helps me a lot.
In fact the pinging noises you describe remind me of the problem I was having with the sensors and trying to get everything synced with the controller so I would suggest you start by not using the hall effect sensors and syncing only to the EMF.
Yes, this makes complete sense, if the hall sensors are out of alignment or wired up incorrectly then I should be able to use the motor in sensor-less mode using the cruise control button. The absence of any pinging noise in this scenario will identify the problem being directly related to the hall sensors but one can only use the bike at half speed so it's not really a long term fix. Just a diagnosis.
I'll give it a whirl tonight when I get home. (if you pardon the pun)
Magz,
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Sorry Gary I said the hub i.e. the motor itself which is defective. I know you've replaced the controller in lightning fast speed and been very supportive and this has not gone unnoticed by people on the forum and myself.
I appreciate all your efforts in attempting to getting this sorted over a problem that's really not your fault.
I'm still not getting a response about your situation. If you are still not happy with your motor I have a suggestion. Since the shipping is so high between us (almost double what it would cost from China to Austrailia) think about this. Take off the spokes and rim and ship me just the motor. This cuts shipping cost by two thirds. Ship it to me any method you like. Sea would be cheapest through your postal service. Make sure you clearly mark the box "Being returned for warranty replacement". That way there will be no duty. I expect it to take 8 weeks from previous experience ( I never slept through the last 2 of those ). Email me a copy of the shipping receipt. When I receive it, Ill test ride a motor, remove the spokes and rims and ship it to you without waiting for yours to arrive. Im not sure of the shipping method, but I'll try to get it to you in less then 2 weeks.
Think about it, at least i'm trying
Gary
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Thanks for getting back Gary.
The Australia post estimate to send back the motor I have here is $57 USD by sea (give or take a cheeseburger) which at the start of this episode would have been totally unacceptable given that the motor is brand new.
But all things taken into account, having a motor that can't use and with no prospect of ever using it, $57 is a fair price to pay in order to get on the road in 2 weeks and know exactly where I stand with the whole thing.
This is currently the best option out of a whole tray of sh!t sandwiches but it probably leaves you to eat the rest and in all honesty, I'm not particularly happy about this either.
So how about this:
I will pay upfront $100 to GM China have a new motor shipped from GM China (by Air 8-10 business days by EMS) on the condition that they TEST it first to ensure that there is no pinging noise when *under load* (what they should have done in the first instance - it's called QA or Quality Assurance it's 100 times cheaper to do this than p!ss off your "company life energy" - your customers)
Assuming Leslie is still offering to fix my broken MP, I'll send it to Leslie here in Australia for just $15 postage (2 business days to either QLD or was it VIC? - doesn't matter same difference give or take a beer) so he can look at the defective wiring and attempt to fix it. If successful, he can then either keep it/sell it / hang it on the wall or whatever for $100 payable to me at some non committal point in the future.
If he never fixes it then no pressure on Leslie it's tough sh!t for me - but he's an Aussie and he has a can-do attitude. I have complete faith in him.
In doing it this way, no one is then out of pocket as follows:
1. I get my new motor that doesn't make a loud noise - in 8 days - I will be happy !!!
2. Gary isn't out of pocket.
3. Leslie gets to play with a MP and when he fixes it I get my $100 back.
4. It allows GM to honor their warranty in good faith without having to pay any money to EMS shipping it to Australia.
I'm personally taking all the risk here and I'm prepared to take that risk knowing that only good can come from it and ultimately it will mean peace and harmony on Earth for all mankind.
If GM refuse this then karma will ensure that their company meets with a timely death.
Thoughts?
Magzy
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I'd like to see your Magic pie on youtube making the same pinging noise as mine when under load.
Here's a very short poor quality video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2jtIX4lWs) of me putting my fingers in the spokes and slowing the wheel down very slightly to produce the pinging noise, hopefully the sound quality is good enough to demonstrate the noise coming from my Magic Pie under this slight load.
I still maintain the noise is caused by the torsional flexing and releasing of the aluminium stator assembly with each magnetic pulse of the motor.
The noise may not be quite as loud as yours, but as I mentioned before, the semicircular plate bolted to my stator should theoretically reduce the noise by reducing the torsional springiness of the stator.
Magzy, I realise you probably still think my explanation is "bullsh!t", but as an experienced mechanical engineer, I'm going to stick with my original theory, which I still believe to be correct, but I could be persuaded to change my opinion, if someone can provide a more logical and feasible explanation.
Alan
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I'd like to see your Magic pie on youtube making the same pinging noise as mine when under load.
Here's a very short poor quality video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2jtIX4lWs) of me putting my fingers in the spokes and slowing the wheel down very slightly to produce the pinging noise, hopefully the sound quality is good enough to demonstrate the noise coming from my Magic Pie under this slight load.
I still maintain the noise is caused by the torsional flexing and releasing of the aluminium stator assembly with each magnetic pulse of the motor.
The noise may not be quite as loud as yours, but as I mentioned before, the semicircular plate bolted to my stator should theoretically reduce the noise by reducing the torsional springiness of the stator.
Magzy, I realise you probably still think my explanation is "bullsh!t", but as an experienced mechanical engineer, I'm going to stick with my original theory, which I still believe to be correct, but I could be persuaded to change my opinion, if someone can provide a more logical and feasible explanation.
Alan
Alan, I didn't mean to be facetious over the torsional theory It was just my opinon in what amounts to boiling frustration over having a bought a motor under the specific understanding that it was "quiet" and discovering it's as loud an idling 4stroke petrol motor.
I've seen other motors in the city - A Magic pie included and they are not loud at all - in fact the low whir noise they make gets absorbed into the low hum you get in cities - which is exactly what I wanted to buy. In fact having seen how quiet the MP was in the city first hand was the turning point in making the decision to go with the MP ...BECAUSE IT WAS SO QUIET AS IT CLIMBED THE HILL I WAS ON AT 4-5 METERS AWAY.
From this distinct observation and taking all facts into account (not the theories) I have defective motor and I firmly stand by this.
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Thanks for getting back Gary.
The Australia post estimate to send back the motor I have here is $57 USD by sea (give or take a cheeseburger) which at the start of this episode would have been totally unacceptable given that the motor is brand new.
But all things taken into account, having a motor that can't use and with no prospect of ever using it, $57 is a fair price to pay in order to get on the road in 2 weeks and know exactly where I stand with the whole thing.
This is currently the best option out of a whole tray of sh!t sandwiches but it probably leaves you to eat the rest and in all honesty, I'm not particularly happy about this either.
So how about this:
I will pay upfront $100 to GM China have a new motor shipped from GM China (by Air 8-10 business days by EMS) on the condition that they TEST it first to ensure that there is no pinging noise when *under load* (what they should have done in the first instance - it's called QA or Quality Assurance it's 100 times cheaper to do this than p!ss off your "company life energy" - your customers)
Assuming Leslie is still offering to fix my broken MP, I'll send it to Leslie here in Australia for just $15 postage (2 business days to either QLD or was it VIC? - doesn't matter same difference give or take a beer) so he can look at the defective wiring and attempt to fix it. If successful, he can then either keep it/sell it / hang it on the wall or whatever for $100 payable to me at some non committal point in the future.
If he never fixes it then no pressure on Leslie it's tough sh!t for me - but he's an Aussie and he has a can-do attitude. I have complete faith in him.
In doing it this way, no one is then out of pocket as follows:
1. I get my new motor that doesn't make a loud noise - in 8 days - I will be happy !!!
2. Gary isn't out of pocket.
3. Leslie gets to play with a MP and when he fixes it I get my $100 back.
4. It allows GM to honor their warranty in good faith without having to pay any money to EMS shipping it to Australia.
I'm personally taking all the risk here and I'm prepared to take that risk knowing that only good can come from it and ultimately it will mean peace and harmony on Earth for all mankind.
If GM refuse this then karma will ensure that their company meets with a timely death.
Thoughts?
Magzy
The problem with this plan is
- I don't see GM road testing a motor for you, I will.
- Leslie is a great guy but does not work for GM. He is just bothered by your situation.
- I can not control when or if they will send you a replacement.
Gary
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Hi all,
Bikemad has brought this to my attention. You all should already know this. Customers who are happy with our products would less likely be on this forum because they are enjoying the product. Customers who are having problems would find solutions online as it is the fastest way. They would eventually end up here. I am pretty sure I solved approx. 70% of the problems here. The only problems we don't solve are the problems which cannot be solved at the moment.
Customers who have their problems solved would not post on this forum about how it was solved. We would not expect them to post here either, they should be enjoying our products. It is human nature to do this because everyone alive in this decade would think ideally. Hence GM tries to make it ideal.
Think about 2 years ago, when we had NO dealers. How am I going to replace any item by means of air shipping a new one to the customer and paying for the air shipping again for shipping the customer's defective product back to us for debugging? So we said we would set up local support and we did. It is much easier to access any local store and complain directly to them, in which dealers such as our Canadian Dealer, Gary, have to deal with. After the customer has complaint to the Dealer, dealers would then complain to me and the whole of GM. But! it is easier for the Dealer to inspect the problem and find a solution to it and replace the item on the spot if the problem is genuine. I wouldn't say "complain" but that's the role of being a dealer. This way everything works out easier and it is much more cost effective for us to replace the defective item and inspect it locally to pinpoint the errors to prevent them from happening again.
*We do exchange faulty products, however we must find a cost effective way, otherwise there would be no point in making and selling them.
On the other hand, the ultimate solution for problems would be Quality Control which was already implemented in August 2010. However the factory was not fully functional so we had to outsource certain components and materials. It should be fully functional by the end of this year, also the MP3 (Magic Pie v.3) would be the one with most of the issues solved and new functions. Count the years that Magic Pie has come out. It came out October 20th, as many of you would have remembered the 160 deal, 2009. It has only been 13 months since it came out, and already it is Version 3. The big picture, undeniable, is that we, the chinese(chinks), are doing our best to solve the Root problem. An old saying in china that we believe in is Zan Cao Chu Gen. It means if you want to destroy the weed, you need to destroy it's roots as well. I, as one of the managers in GM, have already expected MANY problems to appear because this is a fairly new product. However, the point of having this forum is to solve it faster. We get complaints and Tom, who's in US now, is making records and translating the problems to the engineers and getting it solved before the next batch of MP's come out. Sit back and think about the entire timeline since october last year. Please tell me this is making sense to anyone who has a grudge against me, and hopefully it would change something.
Anyway, I have found it very pleasant to deal with any member of this forum, even if it get's ugly, every quarrel would help in improving the next batch of products we make. I have given english-speaking dealers authority in this forum so that the people would know who they are talking to. Thanks to dealers like Gary, who is actively involved in the forums, him and GM are getting first-hand information about problems that we are solving. I don't think we need to post a youtube video of our factory and our engineers do we?
Oh you might think we don't dare show ourselves! Very well then, once it is up and running, I will post a video to let everyone see what's going on inside.
Cheers,
Yao Yuan
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Hi Yao
While you are here following this thread, How about looking into Magzy's situation. He received a MP with a loud pinging noise. He was told it was a bearing. Before he could change it his controller failed. I sent him a new one and the wheel was spinning again but still with the loud pinging sound. He replaced the bearings at his expence. I refunded him his money spent, but the noise still is there. If you look at the pictures of the inside of the motor it is all scarred on the magnets and the stator. Can GM please send him a new motor? I am sure he would be willing to have it relaced himself as long as he could get a replacement. I realize you have to be cost effective on replacement, but does that mean I have to send him a new motor at my expence?
Best Regards
Gary
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Magzy contacted me before he purchased this wheel saying he would like to buy it though me as he felt I had a better reputation in warranty issues.
Gary
I can confirm this is correct. I never wanted to have to get help with the MP but I'm I am very glad I went through Gary instead of Golden China because of the communication problems people face.
There's nothing worse in the land of e-commerce than thinking you have been ripped off or sold a donkey with no way out but to resign yourself to this fact.
If it wasn't for Gary and the members on this forum, who at the moment are completely shoring up GM on the customer service front, GM would would die in the west.
In hindsight, I should have seen the all the warning signs in plain sight here and avoided buying the MP but you never think these nightmare scenarios happen to you do you?
A life lesson is that you always get what you pay for.
I am very grateful for Gary and the members on this forum for keeping the candle lit with respect to GM's byzantine and torturous position. But candles don't but forever.
-
I have a ping pumping out 53v at 30 AH max]
Ohh BTW with the ping pack if you actually test the voltage fresh off the charger its over 60v. After a few minutes of being disconnected from the charger will the volts go down to 53v
The magic controller and MP internal controller have HVC set around 60v. On "my" MP it allows you to use the motor at 59.7v or lower, on the dot.
If I test my MP while the Ping is balancing on its charger the controller will not work.
On the CA I watch the volts go down past 59.7v and the MP fires up.
Just one to watch for. Your controller should work fine but you will have to wait a minute for the volts to go down, I would disable regen for this battery too.
-
I will be road testing a wheel for Magzy this weekend. I'm also going to try to video the test run and see if I can get a reasonable sound track going as well. If all goes well a swap will be made.
Gary
Awesome !!
Now that's something I want to read about. Good on you mate, make sure you claim dry cleaning your cape at tax time :)
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Gary do you test the controllers too. Ha I guess its not so expensive to replace a controller. Everyone told GM the internal controller may prove to have such issues.
I on the other hand find the internal controllers fine and easy enough to replace. To make life easy I left a little bit of insulator on the wires when I cut them so I didnt need to follow a wiring diagram. Looking for a local supply of circlips or a better alternative to using them ATM is my next project.
I used the old clips on one hub I took appart, it feels solid now put together, but it worries me a bit as I had to bend one clip to get it off.
-
So have we fixed the loud knocking noise yet?
-
So have we fixed the loud knocking noise yet?
Hi Magzy
I'll reply to Leslies post as this one is on topic. I have created a video. Keep in mind this wheel is mounted without a tire and is on an aluminum dropout hanging on a steel fence. So in use it should be alot quieter. Let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxjHv04ufQ8
Gary
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PERFECT EXAMPLE !!!
Excellent demonstration Gary. I second this as it's the exact sound when holding my bike in the air with the throttle on
:)
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Thanks MM. What is your opinion on how your wheel sounds on the ground when riding as opposed to off the ground. Is it quieter, louder or about the same.
Gary
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So have we fixed the loud knocking noise yet?
Hi Magzy
I'll reply to Leslies post as this one is on topic. I have created a video. Keep in mind this wheel is mounted without a tire and is on an aluminum dropout hanging on a steel fence. So in use it should be alot quieter. Let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxjHv04ufQ8
Gary
Excellent video Gary, This sounds much more like it should.
How does it sound at a standing start under load?
Magz
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Honestly I didn't check it for that but I'm sure it is pretty much the same. It's amazing I was able to do that test and video it on the day I returned from vacation. If this is satisfactory contact me in email and we will get it done.
Gary
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I'll see what videos I can come up with for examples.
I remember when I first ran the 16" cast wheel on a standard BMX with widened rear dropouts, when I went for my first ride there was an unbearable clicking/clunking/tonking sound that drove me bananas - on inspecting the wheel under load, the valve cap was hitting on my frame!! Bahhh annoying
Apart from that, the wheels are not 'silent' but present a bit of a groan, whir and whine noise I guess. I will say that riding down a street or bike track people will turn around from a fair distance as they can hear me coming. I like that though !!
Anyway good post :)
If the spokes are not seated properly I would expect some ticking noise and more of the 'creak' noise when under loud.
Mine groans and clicks slightly under huge load and it doesn't have any spokes! I don't want to do that to my special gal though... Shes too purdy :D
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So, an update on the loud knocking/ pinging noise.
Gary's sending me the motor that he tested in video along with a couple of extra bits I need.
I'm sending my defective one back to him along with the broken controller and bearings so he can use them at will.
Will take about 2 weeks to arrive here in Aus land.
So I'm cautiously optimistic that a resolution to this problem will manifest itself by the 21st Nov.
Check back then to see if it has...
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all who have contributed to resolving / diagnosing said issues in a positive way and a special mention to Gary who's been epic in his resolve to put right the issues I have faced.
Regards,
Magz
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Actually that video is a good one. With all the background noise of the tire on the road and if there is any traffic in comparison to a brushed motor you could call this silent, For want of a better term is ultra low noise high powered brushless motor.
The only thing that the video doesnt show is the clicking noise the MP makes at very low RPM one experinces during the initial stage in take offs..
One good comparison is a egg beater fishing reel when you get a big fish on the line it goes; "tick click tick", as the whopper takes the bait. When the big.fish hits the throttle the reel goes wizzzzzz. Garys video shows when the big fish makes a run for it. The MP goes wizzz,
Edit:
And this is not related to the gear freewheel sound either, it the MP or magic controller causing a magnetic resonant sound,
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So, an update on the loud knocking/ pinging noise.
Gary's sending me the motor that he tested in video along with a couple of extra bits I need.
I'm sending my defective one back to him along with the broken controller and bearings so he can use them at will.
Will take about 2 weeks to arrive here in Aus land.
So I'm cautiously optimistic that a resolution to this problem will manifest itself by the 21st Nov.
Check back then to see if it has...
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all who have contributed to resolving / diagnosing said issues in a positive way and a special mention to Gary who's been epic in his resolve to put right the issues I have faced.
Regards,
Magz
It seems like we've both had to be patient on getting our pies sorted. I'm hopefully going to be test riding my conversion today after waiting a month from purchase on gettin ot all sorted. I will also make a video of the motor running and under load when I get a chance this week. I think there will have to an 18 certificate rating on the photos I put up as the bike is so damn sexy. :D
Andrew :)
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So, an update on the loud knocking/ pinging noise.
Gary's sending me the motor that he tested in video along with a couple of extra bits I need.
I'm sending my defective one back to him along with the broken controller and bearings so he can use them at will.
Will take about 2 weeks to arrive here in Aus land.
So I'm cautiously optimistic that a resolution to this problem will manifest itself by the 21st Nov.
Check back then to see if it has...
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all who have contributed to resolving / diagnosing said issues in a positive way and a special mention to Gary who's been epic in his resolve to put right the issues I have faced.
Regards,
Magz
As the bike is so damn sexy. :D
Andrew :)
;D
Sounds classy. These forums along with the GM design look do inspire excellent looking vehicles.
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A large package arrived from Canada today.
<large grin coupled with the feeling of badassery to ensue>
but alas - won't have chance to respoke and fit it this weekend :(
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Glad to hear it! How does the box look?
Gary
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A large package arrived from Canada today.
<large grin coupled with the feeling of badassery to ensue>
but alas - won't have chance to respoke and fit it this weekend :(
My favorite news, Good news :D.
I"d just swap the stator and face plates from my spare motor to save respoking them but you don't have the old motor with rim true anymore do you?
Having a spare working motor can be advantageous when the motor you use breaks down..
Oh well.
Respoking can be fun, take a seat, sit back and relax and spoke that Pie already.. :P
-
Glad to hear it! How does the box look?
Gary
Box was tip top Thanks Gary !
Everything inside and packed up nicely.
-
I"d just swap the stator and face plates from my spare motor to save respoking them but you don't have the old motor with rim true anymore do you?
Actually Magzy still does have the old motor. But please don't do this though. Have the new one laced in. I really want to hear the end result with a new motor and not a half and half situation.
Gary
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I"d just swap the stator and face plates from my spare motor to save respoking them but you don't have the old motor with rim true anymore do you?
Actually Magzy still does have the old motor. But please don't do this though. Have the new one laced in. I really want to hear the end result with a new motor and not a half and half situation.
Gary
agreed..
I'll video the result - probably this weekend now when I get the time.
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ok I respoked the wheel, aligned it up (after reading how to spoke a wheel on t'internet) and...
I have to say that pinging noise is still there albeit much fainter and non existent after about 10km/h - I can most certainly live with this.
Also, there is a lot less drag and noise when coasting = bonus!
so, only 3 months from ordering to getting a resolution.
Thanks gary and others here for your great support!
e-biking is great
-
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_thumb_up_230608.GIF)
It's good to hear you're finally sorted Magzy.
Assuming you've had chance to try it out more, how does the acceleration and power compare with the noisier motor?
Alan
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ok I respoked the wheel, aligned it up (after reading how to spoke a wheel on t'internet) and...
I have to say that pinging noise is still there albeit much fainter and non existent after about 10km/h - I can most certainly live with this.
Also, there is a lot less drag and noise when coasting = bonus!
so, only 3 months from ordering to getting a resolution.
Thanks gary and others here for your great support!
e-biking is great
WooHoo! ;D
Enjoy the Ride!
-
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_thumb_up_230608.GIF)
It's good to hear you're finally sorted Magzy.
Assuming you've had chance to try it out more, how does the acceleration and power compare with the noisier motor?
Alan
The new motor feels about 10% slower on acceleration and slightly slower top end (using same controller /setup) But far more importantly a lot quieter which was my primary concern now resolved. Pinging noise is about 50% lower and kind of vanishes at >10km/h
To combat the slowness I have a USB cable which I'll have a play with to try and get more torque out of it.
any tips?
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YAyyyy
See maybe you had a super pie magzy and you threw it away like it was burnt
haha jokes :) um well if you have the USB cable - you can adjust your regen firstly. Being new it is probably already set at 24v
Really glad your back on the road mate. Now you have to go down the bakery and eat pies on your pie hehe
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After playing about with settings - this made no difference to performance of Pie and is very slow.
Hills I could previously zoom up with old noisy pie are now a significant struggle with new pie. It will grind to a halt and then stop unless I put some serious pedling into it.
I thought I could amend settings on Pie via USB to get some extra out of it but settings do absolutely nothing.
I am not 100% happy with this Magic Pie - it needs a lot more power.
I bought a turnigy watt meter at the weekend so I can see what it's pulling out of the battery - something isn't quite right with the whole thing.
:(
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So what is Turnigy reporting back Magz?
-
After playing about with settings - this made no difference to performance of Pie and is very slow.
Hills I could previously zoom up with old noisy pie are now a significant struggle with new pie. It will grind to a halt and then stop unless I put some serious pedling into it.
I thought I could amend settings on Pie via USB to get some extra out of it but settings do absolutely nothing.
I am not 100% happy with this Magic Pie - it needs a lot more power.
I bought a turnigy watt meter at the weekend so I can see what it's pulling out of the battery - something isn't quite right with the whole thing.
:(
What voltage is the pie set at and what voltage is your battery?
Gary
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So what is Turnigy reporting back Magz?
It's not wired up yet - I had a load of other things to do at le weekend.
Pie is definitely slower - I'm thinking that maybe one of the battery connections has come lose slightly and thus, makes the contactable surface smaller which equates to lower amps.
It's definitely the amperage which is suffering (Glad I did all the electronics research to actually know this)
-
After playing about with settings - this made no difference to performance of Pie and is very slow.
Hills I could previously zoom up with old noisy pie are now a significant struggle with new pie. It will grind to a halt and then stop unless I put some serious pedling into it.
I thought I could amend settings on Pie via USB to get some extra out of it but settings do absolutely nothing.
I am not 100% happy with this Magic Pie - it needs a lot more power.
I bought a turnigy watt meter at the weekend so I can see what it's pulling out of the battery - something isn't quite right with the whole thing.
:(
What voltage is the pie set at and what voltage is your battery?
Gary
ok so I downloaded the software from GM's website - (from where the enternal controller is listed on on the main page)
I disconnected the battery and harness.
Then plugged in the USB cable to the controller.
the other end into the laptop. (at this point, the neighbors thought I was building a robot lol)
I got a beep from the software.
I got the parameters from the controller and the software said the following:
max 50A
continuous 30A
voltage 24V
Regen =100%
max speed thingy =100%
I have a 48v Battery from ping V2.5 (new) , so I changed the voltage to 48v and then saved the config to the controller.
I disconnected, and tested if it actually did save by getting the config again which duly said 48v...
I tested the bike out on the street @48v and the torque/acceleration is the same - I.e. changing the settings gave no change.
My battery is a band new ping 10AH which will go up to 30A Max before cutting out (a feature of ping)
the only thing I can think is that a wire has come lose slightly and has affected the gauge which in turn has affected the max amperage.
I'll have it out again this weekend and will be soldering in all the battery connections with the new Turnigy watt meter and get the *actual* reading.
What should I be expecting Watts wise with a 48v 30A max battery ?
I'm assuming 48v*30a=1440w
However, assuming the external controller will do only 16A which I've seen banded about on this forum (the true/rated figure of what it *should* be is kept secret by GM for some reason) then the Max output I would be expecting is 48v*16a=768w
If my test shows that it's pumping out less than 768w when going up a hill and comes to a stop (like its doing at the moment) then there's something technically wrong (?)
Regards,
Magzy
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Have you tried running it with the settings at 24 volts. Everyone seems to get more power this way. The only problem is the low voltage cutoff will not protect your batteries. Hopefully your ping battery has its own protection.
Gary
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Yes me an the Monkey was a telling him that. and I think if I remember correct h said he has and saw no difference.
I would mod it. But I cant be asking members to do this Gary. Heavy track soldering may look simple and compared to some soldering tequniques it is,.
But there 100 of little very simple things one need to learn when modding a controller. These do not stand out to the new enthusiasts.
You have to watch your solder gun very carefully and have good control over solder flow. Look for splatter and have magnifying tools at hand. The smallest of solder dots can end the controller in a heart beat.
Watch out for SM components as they wuill come off with the touch of aq 40 watt gun. Yes you need a bigger watt solder iron for the Mod.
That said I thuink the way things are going either the Dual Pie or risk the shunt mod are his only solutions. I honestly think nearly every GM controller is the same.
-
Hills I could previously zoom up with old noisy pie are now a significant struggle with new pie. It will grind to a halt and then stop unless I put some serious pedling into it.
I honestly think nearly every GM controller is the same.
But don't forget that this particular controller is the exact same one that Magzy was using with the noisy Pie, so it cannot be causing the difference in performance.
Could it be that the new Pie has been wound slightly different to the old noisy one or perhaps it might be down to less powerful magnets?
We will soon find out what power it's actually being used when the Turnigy Wattmeter (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10777) has been fitted.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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I have to back up Magzy on this :-[. i'm in the exact same boat. my pie dies on very moderate hills and the programming, after trying many variations makes no difference at all. Before I buy a Turnigy Wattmeter how easy are they to plug-in, what needs doing?
I really want to do a video of my pies performance but the weather is stopping me at present due to black ice all over place.
I truely believe at present that I would get better all round perforamnce from a 1000w HBS
Andrew
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Before I buy a Turnigy Wattmeter how easy are they to plug-in, what needs doing?
Andrew
The watt meter has 4 wires coming out of it.
To connect it up, the 2 wires coming out of your battery need to be connected to the 2 Source wires on the meter.
the other 2 wires coming out of the Load end of the watt meter go to the controller.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Wattmeter.JPG)
it's basically a gate between the controller and battery.
The wires that come with the watt meter are only 6.5-7.5 cm long so, you have to run cabling from the battery to the watt meter (presumably on the handlebars) and then back (4 long lengths of cable). so you'd need to buy enough cabling 5-6meters ish from an local electronics /DIY shop/store that is rated to the Max amps you'll be using.
You can either solder it or use anderson clips/ bullet connectors but just make sure they are rated to the max amps you'll be using.
Useful stuff to get is heat shrink wrap, it's like a loose sleeve that slides loosely over your cabling and then you heat it up with a hairdryer or similar implement and it contracts to 2/3rds of it's original size in diameter and makes your 4 wires into 1 manageable one. (the guy in the shop demo'ed it to me and I was impressed - it just makes the whole thing look a lot neater)
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Have you tried running it with the settings at 24 volts. Everyone seems to get more power this way. The only problem is the low voltage cutoff will not protect your batteries. Hopefully your ping battery has its own protection.
Gary
the default was 24v when I first read the config from the controller with the usb and the software.
I simply set it to 48v tested it - which gave same performance.
I then set it back to 24v and retested it and it was the same performance.
i.e. the USB software does nothing to improve performance.
-
But don't forget that this particular controller is the exact same one that Magzy was using with the noisy Pie, so it cannot be causing the difference in performance.
Could it be that the new Pie has been wound slightly different to the old noisy one or perhaps it might be down to less powerful magnets?
Correct!
There's only one way to find this out and that's to open them both and studiously compare the windings side by side on the noisy one and the quiet one.
This will also prove or dispel the saying that "all pies are made equal".
yeah, I know that it'll break the warranty and such but in all honesty, if it broke again, then I'd rather put fire ants in my eyes than go through the whole goldenmotor warranty grist mill process again.
Regards.
Magz
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Yes me an the Monkey was a telling him that. and I think if I remember correct h said he has and saw no difference.
I would mod it. But I cant be asking members to do this Gary. Heavy track soldering may look simple and compared to some soldering tequniques it is,.
But there 100 of little very simple things one need to learn when modding a controller. These do not stand out to the new enthusiasts.
You have to watch your solder gun very carefully and have good control over solder flow. Look for splatter and have magnifying tools at hand. The smallest of solder dots can end the controller in a heart beat.
Watch out for SM components as they wuill come off with the touch of aq 40 watt gun. Yes you need a bigger watt solder iron for the Mod.
That said I thuink the way things are going either the Dual Pie or risk the shunt mod are his only solutions. I honestly think nearly every GM controller is the same.
I am inclined to do this if all else fails. But would shunting more power into the pie make it more noisy? (and be right back to square one)
In any case, modding looks like my only hope which is sad because I can't use this motor the way it is because I still have to work up a sweat to get to work - (which completely defeats the original idea for getting this kit in the first place).
If I have to get a shower at work when using this kit then I may as well as may just use a normal bike.
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Mine.rattled.a.bit.
I.am.missing.my.space.key.
lol
you.just.need.to.solder.the.shunt.a.little.bit.shorter.
The.ping.packs.are.rated.at.1.to.2.c.
Ping.would.recommend.no.more.than.20.amps.for.that.pack.
You.should.be.able.to.use.it.at.30.amps...but.it.may.not.last.too.long.at.3c..
But.i.would.get.a.watt.meter.to.maske.sure.
The.lower.cost.of.small.pack.makes.up.for.the.lesser.cycle.life.
-
I.am.missing.my.space.key.
lol
hold down "ALT" and then type "255" on the numeric keypad ;)
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hey.true.that.
i.hope.you.guys.have.batteries.that.are.pumping.out.enough.power! 8)
les.thanks.man.i.am.totally.going.to.type.like.this.forever.now.its.easier.to.breath
:D
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I'd rather put fire ants in my eyes than go through the whole goldenmotor warranty grist mill process again.
Regards.
Magz
:o ??? ::) :'( :( >:( >:( >:( >:( ??? ??? >:( :) :D ;D :-X :-X >:( >:( :) :D
My interpretation of the GM warranty routine...
Gary
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Magzy, try disconnecting your regen brake cable from the controller and see if it makes a difference to your motors performance.
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Hey Andrew, does that make a difference on yours? jeepers
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I don't know if it would effect performance but I did have a breif email conversation with Leslie and he believes regen is the culprit for most of the controller failures. It would be interesting to find out if anyone ever had a controller failure with regen disabled.
Gary
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i know it is unlikely but 'honestly', the pie feels a bit more pokey. I have felt more torque and it seems to speed up/wind quicker ??? ??? it probably just because I have a sensitive backside :D
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Interesting, if it ever stops snowing and the roads clear up I'll have to give that a whirl.
Gary
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sounds like you need a set of these...
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=24563 (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=24563)
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You guys have got to stop showing this stuff to me. You know I want everything!
I see they come in both front and rear style. I wonder since I have two motors should I get both rear tires?
Gary
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I think the controller has just died (for the second time) :'(
Symptoms:
no power to the motor despite having all 3 led power indicator lights on - and fully charged battery.
When phase wires are connected to the motor, motor is stiff to move.
When I disconnect phase wires, motor moves freely.
This doesn't feel right because I think this happened last time.
can anyone help me diagnose this pls?
this is not good, I've on;y been on the road just over a week and already I'm back to being a pedestrian.
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When phase wires are connected to the motor, motor is stiff to move.
When I disconnect phase wires, motor moves freely.
Magzy,
The stiffness in the motor is usually caused by failed (shorted) FETs within the controller, did this happen during use?
If so, was the controller very hot, and did it happen under load or just after heavy breaking etc.?
It would appear that you are faced with two options:
- Follow your own advice and put fire ants in your eyes. :o
- Email Gary and explain your problem, and hope he can organise a replacement controller. :)
I know which option I would prefer, but you will have to decide for yourself. ;)
Alan
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When phase wires are connected to the motor, motor is stiff to move.
When I disconnect phase wires, motor moves freely.
Magzy,
The stiffness in the motor is usually caused by failed (shorted) FETs within the controller, did this happen during use?
If so, was the controller very hot, and did it happen under load or just after heavy breaking etc.?
It would appear that you are faced with two options:
- Follow your own advice and put fire ants in your eyes. :o
- Email Gary and explain your problem, and hope he can organise a replacement controller. :)
I know which option I would prefer, but you will have to decide for yourself. ;)
Alan
Well last time the controller was replaced, it took ony a week to get here. the fire ants reference was for the motor itself.
It happenend while riding at full speed - and just coming up to a long incline.
While riding at full speed, applying power to the motor jsut made it make a shudder sound - and then no power at all.
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Magzy, you really have to stop wrecking all this stuff! Sorry just kidding. Please send me an email to gaysalo@goldenmotor.ca and we will get you going again.
Gary
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Gary, I think you best check the email address again. ;)
Also, keep an eye out for my email. I was wondering if you could possibly do me a deal on a delivery to the UK? :-\
Andrew :)
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Magzy, you really have to stop wrecking all this stuff! Sorry just kidding. Please send me an email to gaysalo@goldenmotor.ca and we will get you going again.
Gary
I have to leave that in there, that's to funny!! Got to be more carefull when typing in my device!
Try this address Magzy: GarySalo@GoldenMotor.CA
Gary
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Well last time the controller was replaced, it took ony a week to get here. the fire ants reference was for the motor itself.
Darn, I was hoping for fire ants!
It happenend while riding at full speed - and just coming up to a long incline.
While riding at full speed, applying power to the motor jsut made it make a shudder sound - and then no power at all.
I know you probably were not braking at the time, but did you have regen enabled?
Gary
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Darn, I was hoping for fire ants!
It happenend while riding at full speed - and just coming up to a long incline.
While riding at full speed, applying power to the motor jsut made it make a shudder sound - and then no power at all.
I know you probably were not braking at the time, but did you have regen enabled?
Gary
yes, regen was on and set to 100%. I was using the brakes too just before it died.
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i´ve had that to, using the regen brakes and then it´s sudders and stops. also hard to spin the wheel.
After 1 week of waiting and connecting and disconnecting the battery it resetted the controller. Maybe that helps
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Hey Hardcore, did you have 5 beeps coming from your controller that time?
And you didn't need to replace the controller? That's awesome, could it be that somehow its enabling the alarm/anti-theft function to lock the wheel?
I wonder if resetting to 'factory settings' with the USB cable would reset it...
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Hey Hardcore, did you have 5 beeps coming from your controller that time?
And you didn't need to replace the controller? That's awesome, could it be that somehow its enabling the alarm/anti-theft function to lock the wheel?
I wonder if resetting to 'factory settings' with the USB cable would reset it...
There is a way of resetting the controller in the listed in the install documentation somewhere. I'm too tired to look it up. I'm sue Bikemad knows exactly where it is :)
Gary
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You're right Gary, although I tried this and number 5 from memory without success. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I think my brakelights should have flicked or something, but maybe not if it toggles a horn signal. I notice on the controller board there is nothing connected to horn. It does have a caption stating MP wheels beeps are replaced by flashes of light.
6. Anti-theft alarm setting:
Cut off power supply to motor (called soft-switch, but controller is still powered
on) and take out the battery key, within 10 seconds press and hold the cruise
control button until you hear a beep sound, then release the cruise control button.
The vehicle is now protected from theft and the motor is electronically locked.
Any movement or vibration of vehicle will trigger the siren for 30 seconds, and
the motorized wheel will resist any pedaling movement.
I have no clue how the controller does this without power connected to it lol. My thoughts were it was for a controller with key switch operation, and the above process - enables the alarm function, not the motor power itself.
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1569.0 (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1569.0) << Manual
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There is a way of resetting the controller in the listed in the install documentation somewhere. I'm too tired to look it up. I'm sure Bikemad knows exactly where it is :)
Unfortunately I don't recall seeing a procedure for resetting the controller, apart from this one for recalibrating the cruise controller to suit non GM motors:
8. Motor phase Calibrating (Do not use it unless your motor is not from GoldenMotor):
The controller can work brushless motors with different phase angles other than defaulted 120 degree.
Below are procedures to let controller match the motor phases:
- Cut-off power to controller and motor
- Grip and hold power brake lever, turn throttle to maximum speed position, depress the cruise control button, turn on the power switch (using battery key)
- Connect battery power to the system, release throttle, release brake lever, release cruise control button.
- Listen 2 beep sound, turn the motor wheel forward and reverse once
- If hear 1 beep sound, motor phase calibrating successfully completed.
- Otherwise, swapping any two of three motor phase wires, and repeat above steps.
It sounds as if you might need more than just two hands to be able to follow those instructions. ???
Alan
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from one of my emails to tom, he ones said that the controller resets after the battery has been disconnected for a period of time.
Don't know but maybe it'll work, try a period that's long enough :D
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I wish I could remember, its like hold the brake and throttle open and hit cruise button 5 times then you get beeps back indicating a reset. I can't find the refference to it now.
Gary
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That sounds like the secret level skip code for Donkey Kong! :D
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ok *finally* after 6 months of tinketing and toing/frowing from china to canada to australia and back, this is now resolved. :) Gary sent a new controller and I have only just managed to fit it to the bike nd test it out. 1 week later it's going good.
Loud pinging noise is about 50% of what it once was. (unavoidable and not stelthy but this information was never to be found anywhere on the GM website)
Regen is turned off permanently because this blew the last controller.
So far after 1 week fo riding to work, no issues.
This project, for me has taken 6 months of issues of 1 defective motor and two broken controllers and the rigmarole of sending them back and fourth across the world
Thanks to Gary of GM Canada and the rest of the forum for all the great support with this project.
:)
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Hi Magzy,
Nice to hear from you! Hopefully it will be carefree from here on :) That video of when I sound tested your motor has become quite popular. I guess everyone is interested in what they sound like. I have done a few builds since I heard from you last. A dual mini motor and another dual Magic Pie! it has been fun and the weather is finally coming together to ride them. Glad to hear you are finally riding!
Gary
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Hi Magzy,
Nice to hear from you! Hopefully it will be carefree from here on :) That video of when I sound tested your motor has become quite popular. I guess everyone is interested in what they sound like. I have done a few builds since I heard from you last. A dual mini motor and another dual Magic Pie! it has been fun and the weather is finally coming together to ride them. Glad to hear you are finally riding!
Gary
Like wise! Welcome back, oh man have you been on a journey.
I too do not use regen on my pies and so far have had no issues with them or the controllers.
Andrew :)