GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => eBike Mods/Legalization => Topic started by: Dave Watson on August 25, 2010, 12:39:20 AM
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I installed a new controller (BAC-0282P) and 1000W 48V motor (MW16B)recently into my chinese e-bike (stock G$O bike with a supposed 350/500 W motor).
The motor ran well but fell short of my expectations of at least 1/3 more power. Of course I suspected the controller.
So now I am posting pics of the controller to get advice for MODDING.
So here it is(http://F:\P8230063.JPG)
(http://F:\P8230064.JPG)
(http://F:\P8230066.JPG)
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Your shunt.
Nice pic of both sides. Makes life easier.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2429.0;attach=3143;image)
Right its hard for me to tell but how thick is that shunt wire you have there?
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Looks good for 20 amps! Maybe we try for 25.
I may suggest first just checking first that there is plenty of solder on the B- and B+ connection points and both shunt solder points and beef them up with a good think blob each, the B- and B+ connections look feeble
And beefing up those blue green yellow connectors would help a little too.
After you have done this.
If you're still not happy read on.
There are a few ways to go about this.
Shorten the shunt.
By pass the shunt.
solder the shunt.
If you want more amps then just add a little solder to one side of the shunt from its anchor hole along the length of the shunt, in essence shortening its resistivity.
Try only going 4 mm from the anchor hole then leave the rest of it as it was. Shortening can make more heat in the shunt due to its gauge thickness.
If you want more which I think you be pretty happy with just beefing the connectors up with solder you will need to get another shunt, find something that can serve as a shunt or I may be able to send you one from my old controller if its a last resort.
If you have any old broken controllers around the maybe you can use on of those.
The shunt you have there looks short and stumpy, Good for about 20 cont 25 amps max. So I do suspect its you solder points.
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There looks like a bad solder point where I have labeld Whats this. Plenty of beef on the flip side here but a little feeble where I labled more beef here.
If this is what I think it is, (the bad solder point), there! is where your magic controller power going down the drain.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2429.0;attach=3147;image)
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And I found another point that concerns me.
One fet looks like its not got enough to its drain leg.
(http://transistor-man.com/images/mosfet1.gif)
A Mosfet. (FET)^^
Check to see the solder is all the way up to all the 2nd and 3rd legs of the fets. The first leg is the gate you don't need beef on this connection.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2429.0;attach=3151;image)
IMO don't modify the shunt until you beef up the PCB tracks and try the bike. We may not need to modify this controller just solder up a few spots.
No need to go over board just make the power circuit robust.
Good luck :D
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And just watch you work
Look at you pictures and recheck the board and make sure you havent messed up any tracks with short circuits. It can be easy to do when you apply a lot of solder around the board.
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Right then, I'll post a close up of the problem areas before and after. Will have to practice a little on some junk boards (I'll have to brush up with floating large amounts of solder to a board). The rest should be a piece of cake and I'll be sure to get data results (thermal and current).
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Good to see you are cautious and preparing. It is the easiest mod and the easiest mod to mess up. Because it is so easy to solder a bit here and there people often go to much and they have a controller just waiting to fail.
Try to aim for the ratings for your motor.
The MP is approx rated at 1350 watts 26 amps max.
And 1000 watts 19 amps constant. 20 amps is fine.
This should give you a pretty wide range of performance with some good head room for overheating heat. Unless you live in the Sahara desert and or weigh 120 kgs or carry passengers you will enjoy a long life of your motor.
Before you post the pics could you let us know if those areas I pointed out are of concern?
Its pretty hard to tell for certain from pictures as they don't show the 3d nature of solder blobs.
Thanks.
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I noticed a few dodgy spots of solder on my controllers too, I just re soldered them, while I was beefing up the tracks.
It will be interesting Dave, to see how your modifications go as mine all went up in smoke! LOL
I had 1 set to 35 amps, It lasted a few weeks. I think the heat sink is absolutely not suitable for more than 20 amps. When I was pulling 35 amps from it it really roasted, I mean it was like touching the oven door! It could have been one of the reasons it died, However when it died I was not putting it under any stress at all and it was running cool, maybe the earlier heating up was the initial cause. I was going slow and the controller was not getting a lot of air. But I seriously think these controllers should be installed in another case with a good large heatsink. Maybe one of the reasons the more expensive controllers have 12-18 fet's ?
One other thing. If you modify the shunt, You will need to turn the amps down via the software cable. I had it set to around 8 amps continuous and 10 max to give me the 35 amps! Also do you have any device for monitoring your current consumption while riding your bike so you can monitor it?
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I noticed a few dodgy spots of solder on my controllers too, I just re soldered them, while I was beefing up the tracks.
It will be interesting Dave, to see how your modifications go as mine all went up in smoke! LOL
It it really roasted, I mean it was like touching the oven door! It could have been one of the reasons it died,
:o
LOL you crack me up sometimes.
The reason why it broke I think you heat up the fet so hot the silicon can fracture or the p region and n regions or the depletion region between them crack or something. when cools or cools too fast. So the next time you ride it may fail. It might take a few hits on the throttle and bam the controller dies.
One reason you don't hose your car motor down when its overheated.
Id love to go through a few dozen fets and examine them with some high magnification one day.
Really who knows? The above is just an assumption but it makes sense..
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I noticed a few dodgy spots of solder on my controllers too, I just re soldered them, while I was beefing up the tracks.
It will be interesting Dave, to see how your modifications go as mine all went up in smoke! LOL
It it really roasted, I mean it was like touching the oven door! It could have been one of the reasons it died,
:o
LOL you crack me up sometimes.
The reason why it broke I think you heat up the fet so hot the silicon can fracture or the p region and n regions or the depletion region between them crack or something. when cools or cools too fast. So the next time you ride it may fail. It might take a few hits on the throttle and bam the controller dies.
One reason you don't hose your car motor down when its overheated.
Id love to go through a few dozen fets and examine them with some high magnification one day.
Really who knows? The above is just an assumption but it makes sense..
Yes total sense Leslie, and one of the reasons I suggested any modding should NOT be done using the existing controllers casing. It's extremely unsuitable for more than 20-25 amps in my opinion.
Remember I thought about installing a large heatsink on my battery box? I was going to remove the circuit board and bolt the fet's to the heatsing on my battery box! I didn't do it because Only riding in the woods and pulling 35 amps for long periods was toasting it, the controllers surface area was not large enough to catch air while going slow. A large heatsink with large finns would have worked well. I didn't get the chance in the end. Controller R.I.P ;D
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Oooh I have to check that one out.
Some fets to-220 package metal is the same as the drain leg meaning you cant hook them up to the same heat sink unless you use thermal transfer insulator and plastic isolation washers. That light blue stuff you see under the fets on the old controllers.
Yes I thought about this. I think the fets expand under high heat and everything bend about more easily.
When they cool the steel and silicon warp differently as the steel cools faster than inside medium causing any bondings to fracture.
You can even get intermittent behavior just before they crap out. Fets get warm they may work, like the xbox360 and towel trick a different thing happening but explains what I am trying to translate here.. there are a few things that can happen.
But with the high power 3 phase controllers once failure has occurred I think the other fets lance the weaker fet in the heart and it all over.
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Hell again, upon closer inspection prior to shunt and solder beef ups, I have noticed the following and took pics of the areas LESLIE pointed out earlier.
So checking out the FET leg, it seems well soldered on the opposite side to a bus bar?
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\SUPERSTEPH\Desktop\FETLEG.JPG)
There appears to be missing solder on one leg to some type of transformer?
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\SUPERSTEPH\Desktop\SAFETOSOLDER.JPG)
The area LESLIE labeled WHAT'S THIS is the soldered side of the SHUNT shown in between the capacitors near the negative battery lead. Looks like a weak solder.
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\SUPERSTEPH\Desktop\SHUNT.JPG)
The controller has since malfunctioned and gives 5 beeps on startup, the wheel cogs when spun by hand. I was moving the bike when it started to beep suddenly and this is when the controller stopped responding. The usb interface still functions so I am going to do the above repairs first and report from there.
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Solder beefed up and connections fixed.
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\SUPERSTEPH\Desktop\BEEFEDUP.JPG)
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\SUPERSTEPH\Desktop\SOLDERED.JPG)
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Sorry for my slow response,
Yea that thing has been pointed out before on the switch mode that's normal.
Have you tried it yet I think you soldered that point where I said its normal. I have no idea what that's is for.
I would put the controller the way it was and repair the shunt and the joint I posted.
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Ohh its too late your fets is dung.
Sigh!
why cant GM bloody solder a board properly to begin with. GRRRRRR!
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Rant ON
Sorry Dave I just feel let down.
They put this officer badge on me like I have something to do with this company, I just get tired of seeing failures and I try and try and they cant even respond to emails too busy jet setting about on our money I feel..
Rant Off.
Ok where to begin.
Undo that solder point before you try again..
Then we find you some fets for replacement. This should be not too hard as it only a six fet board to find the bad fets and replace...
As long as you don't ride it hard when it failed it should only need one fet hopefully ::).
Mark may help you out with the part number.
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Yet another magic controller dead! :'(
Sorry Dave, I know how you feel.
Okay I replaced the fet's with 6 of these
IRFB3207Z
It didn't work actually, so something else was toasted. Those IRFB320's are rated for 170 amps.
Dave, if you want my honest opinion, I would just lay the magic controller to rest and don't waste any more money on it. If you spend money on expensive FET's and it still doesn't work, well that's good money that could go on a different controller!
Also try and consider how much power you can actually get into that motor before it fry's. It looks similar to Leslie's HBS 1000 w motor, so maybe he can advise you better about it's power capabilities! If it's similar to my conhismotor 1kw motor, then The phase wires and motor used to get very warm @ 48volts 22 amps! So that told me not to increase the watts. I may have got more voltage in, I don't know!
Dave I think you have a few solutions,
1 Buy a different (non magic controller) controller rated for your motor.
2 Buy one of the infinion controllers I bought, from ebikes.ca and one option would be to buy the 40 amp with the direct plug in cycle analyst, which will mean you can adjust the current until you find the best balance between power and what's safe for your motor! The cycle analyst takes a second or a little less to kick in the limit, but is not a problem IMO.
The controller can with a simple resistor change, go up to 84 volts. I think this option would be the cheapest option in the long run if ever you decide to get the external controller Magic Pie motor, or any other motor. You won't have to buy another controller!
Best of luck!
Mark
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All done, but alas the 5 beeps of death.
(unrelated to mods since it started prior to them).
I had been using the controller as it was set from factory; afterall, I ordered the controller (BAC-0282P 48V/50W) and the motor MW16B at the same time so GM knew the setting requirements. And there was no manual with the controller so I followed the online wiring .pdf.
(http://)
To anyone wiring in the controller for the first time - the wiring diagram for it shows the remote key switch (G) wired seperately from (B+). But the harness for the controller had both leads crimped together?? The anti theft function can not operate wired in this manner so I wired the unit as per the diagram.
Wired seperately, I observed that with the key off, twisting the throttle would cause the bike to move!!! I should have suspected something was not right with the controller at this time (the soft kill was not working and they knew this at GM otherwise the leads would not have been combined).
Oh well, my new LYEN should get things rolling again. And for the same price I paid for the Magic controller (the shipping is included with the LYEN).
Thanks for all the support Leslie and Mark.
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All done, but alas the 5 beeps of death.
(unrelated to mods since it started prior to them).
I had been using the controller as it was set from factory; afterall, I ordered the controller (BAC-0282P 48V/50W) and the motor MW16B at the same time so GM knew the setting requirements. And there was no manual with the controller so I followed the online wiring .pdf.
(http://)
To anyone wiring in the controller for the first time - the wiring diagram for it shows the remote key switch (G) wired seperately from (B+). But the harness for the controller had both leads crimped together?? The anti theft function can not operate wired in this manner so I wired the unit as per the diagram.
Wired seperately, I observed that with the key off, twisting the throttle would cause the bike to move!!! I should have suspected something was not right with the controller at this time (the soft kill was not working and they knew this at GM otherwise the leads would not have been combined).
Oh well, my new LYEN should get things rolling again. And for the same price I paid for the Magic controller (the shipping is included with the LYEN).
Thanks for all the support Leslie and Mark.
Looking at the solder point at the shunt there is one reason the fets can fail. regen voltage can get up over the fets with no good pathe to the battery and worse your shunt would of been intermittent at best.
I just wished you saved it before you put it back together, I am waiting for a day where I find an error and someone fixes it goes wow thanks it works now. LOL
I haven't had any wins for a while now. It depressing me lately with all the failures and Im thinking about getting some serious therapy. Maybe they should call the MC the magic emo. Because thats how I feel at the moment.
Thanks for sharing. The pics speak for themselves and at least we know now why some of these controllers have 15 amp limits.
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I noticed a few dodgy spots of solder on my controllers too, I just re soldered them, while I was beefing up the tracks.
It will be interesting Dave, to see how your modifications go as mine all went up in smoke! LOL
I had 1 set to 35 amps, It lasted a few weeks. I think the heat sink is absolutely not suitable for more than 20 amps. When I was pulling 35 amps from it it really roasted, I mean it was like touching the oven door! It could have been one of the reasons it died, However when it died I was not putting it under any stress at all and it was running cool, maybe the earlier heating up was the initial cause. I was going slow and the controller was not getting a lot of air. But I seriously think these controllers should be installed in another case with a good large heatsink. Maybe one of the reasons the more expensive controllers have 12-18 fet's ?
One other thing. If you modify the shunt, You will need to turn the amps down via the software cable. I had it set to around 8 amps continuous and 10 max to give me the 35 amps! Also do you have any device for monitoring your current consumption while riding your bike so you can monitor it?
I've been trying so hard to blow my controller after modding it. I've seen 3,500watts when pulling away lol and still the damn thing won't die. As you know I just soldered a massive blob of solder onto the shunts to give as many amps as the batteries could give.
The key thing maybe is that I have the heatsink directly in the path of incoming air and not covered up at all. The motor doesn't even get luke warm and the controller is warm to the touch when going up a steep long hill but not hot. Maybe it could be the extra heat sink paste I put on the Fets?
I'm not worried about blowing the controller as I have an Infinion 40amp controller on the way.
Scorpion I must hassle you for how you wire up your Infinion controller some day?
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Are you noticing your customers going elsewhere to get quality?
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Hi Spacey,
As far as I remember, the Infineon controller wires match up the same way as the magic controllers.
Yellow-Yellow
Green-Green
Blue-Blue
Same for hall wires, Oh except I think the power wires on the halls were different. I think it was red-red
and maybe brown? I forget. I have it all covered up now in water proof tape!
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I can tell as soon as I got mine.
Peter
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Hey chaps
I have a 16" cast wheel I have wanted to see if I can spring back to life.
It has eaten 2 internal controllers, the original and the replacement. I still don't know if there could be something else internal that is causing the grief.
So I was going to go the infineon way but I thought that although that would be really nice as a spare if the wheel didn't work, but I ended up buying a no name from eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
Its a 35amp 15fet controller and seemed a bit higher quality and similar to some that were $120
Can I ask you guys if you went the external way as a modification or a replacement of the failed internal controller? Only reason I didn't go GM was due to this post and a few others haha
Hey spacey is your beast still going? What kind of top speeds do you get and what battery pack do you run?
Cheers
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Two internal controllers?
Was this using lots of regen, maybe all but disable the regen
Test the inductance to see if the coils are wound properly. Id honestly say this would rule out all possibilities your motor is responsible for the controllers death once and for all.
Get yourself a cheap Henry meter. The ones on ebay don't do uH but can read a motor well enough at the .01mh. Good enough to do most things like winding toroids and other fun projects, The phase wires should have even inductance between them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DM4070-LCR-Inductance-resistance-capacitance-meter-w-wa-/220605795894?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item335d214e36 (http://cgi.ebay.com/DM4070-LCR-Inductance-resistance-capacitance-meter-w-wa-/220605795894?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item335d214e36)
This one above although a bit pricey has the 200uh range the other dont.
Its best to test this with stator removed from the wheel as motor position over the poles can change the inductance values but you can turn the wheel slow to see the min and max inductance. Im not sure but I think you can damage thoses meters if you turn a wheel too fast when testing.
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Hey chaps
I have a 16" cast wheel I have wanted to see if I can spring back to life.
It has eaten 2 internal controllers, the original and the replacement. I still don't know if there could be something else internal that is causing the grief.
So I was going to go the infineon way but I thought that although that would be really nice as a spare if the wheel didn't work, but I ended up buying a no name from eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
Its a 35amp 15fet controller and seemed a bit higher quality and similar to some that were $120
Can I ask you guys if you went the external way as a modification or a replacement of the failed internal controller? Only reason I didn't go GM was due to this post and a few others haha
Hey spacey is your beast still going? What kind of top speeds do you get and what battery pack do you run?
Cheers
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Sorry for late reply.....
I use an Infineon 40amp controller with the Cycal Analyst to limit the amps when I'm not off road. Top speed is limited by the motor as nothing I can do to get it past 24mph max.
I like to keep it around 30amps max but have seen over 70amps on my modded controller that came with the MP kit. The battery pack I am using is a 12ah Headway 48v that runs normally around 54v but I still only get 24mph no matter how many amps I chuck at it. This battery pack is good for 70amps continuous and 160amps burst.
Hey chaps
I have a 16" cast wheel I have wanted to see if I can spring back to life.
It has eaten 2 internal controllers, the original and the replacement. I still don't know if there could be something else internal that is causing the grief.
So I was going to go the infineon way but I thought that although that would be really nice as a spare if the wheel didn't work, but I ended up buying a no name from eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180548555636&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
Its a 35amp 15fet controller and seemed a bit higher quality and similar to some that were $120
Can I ask you guys if you went the external way as a modification or a replacement of the failed internal controller? Only reason I didn't go GM was due to this post and a few others haha
Hey spacey is your beast still going? What kind of top speeds do you get and what battery pack do you run?
Cheers
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Well just to add closure to this thread I started; I have been traveling 20km/day to work and back for the past 45 days.
Installed my 12 FET Lyen Edition controller (wired in with 10 guage), added a DP Cycle Analyst and then after some trial and error with the phase and hall sensor wiring sequence, Presto!
The GM 1000W motor pulls very well uphill, 40 amp peak at 48 V on 12 degree grade (you do the math!). The top cruise speed (flat) on the 16" cast motor is 32km/hr and pulls 8 amps continuous (total weight of me and my ride is 340 lbs - 18AH SLA account for 60 lbs of this total). I wish I could switch to delta phase for higher speed. Seen some crazy videos with a big high current relay being used to do this. It requires some additional wiring to the motor?
Anyway, next I am thinking of adding a battery to have a total of 60 V. Top speed isn't going to change using a non geared hub motor, so the only way to decrease travel time is to keep a higher constant speed (climb the hills faster). I have tried to find others who have done this with the GM motor but I have only found 9c motor modders. I wonder just what the difference is when you buy a 24V/36V/48V hub motor from GM? Are these motors the same? Anyone here tried higher voltage packs on these stock motors? Will it increase top speed?
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Hi Dave
You're using the cast 16"?
Yay I thought I was the only one here that used one haha
What bike are you running it on? I was so impressed with the torque of the 16" it's great.
I'll look into the wiring re-configuration too, maybe we can come up with something
peace out
MM
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I am thinking of adding a battery to have a total of 60 V. Top speed isn't going to change using a non geared hub motor, so the only way to decrease travel time is to keep a higher constant speed (climb the hills faster). Anyone here tried higher voltage packs on these stock motors? Will it increase top speed?
Dave, increasing the voltage from 48 to 60 will definitely increase the speed, probably by around 10-15%. As long as your controller can handle a 60V pack (which can be over 70V straight off the charger) you should not have a problem increasing the voltage, but keep an eye on the temperature of the motor as it will get hotter under load at lower speeds due to the additional 400+ Watts of power going into the windings.
I would expect your speed to increase to nearer 37km/hr, but it would be nice know what the actual top speed is when you've tested it.
Alan
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Alan I sometimes wonder what frequency the oscillator ticks away at in your head!
Great expectation. I can second this as 54V on the 16" will yield 35-39Km/h max so your numbers are probably perfect ;)
A few video's I've seen with modified 18" and 16" cast wheels is that apparently the rpm winding is higher due to the wheel circumference? Can anyone confirm this?
I have a 72V controller to test with the 16" cast on a modified push scooter. I'm thinking of going dual drive 16" scooter for crazyness but we will see how the rear wheel goes with 72v first ;)
Definitely agree the wheel wants if not needs more volts to get speed. And the 16" will eat any hill its ridiculous
yay
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Alan I sometimes wonder what frequency the oscillator ticks away at in your head!
I'm unable to give a precise details MM, because the very thought of gaining direct access to measure the exact speed makes me shudder! :o
I reckon it spends a good deal of its time ticking away at more than 8Hz:
(http://get-rich-mp3-download.com/brain-waves.jpg)
A few video's I've seen with modified 18" and 16" cast wheels is that apparently the rpm winding is higher due to the wheel circumference? Can anyone confirm this?
The 16" Pie is apparently wound differently to make it run faster:
You might find it strange, however the 16" is made to hit that speed. The windings are different, lower torque but higher speed. Go check out the Tq figs for the 16" and you shall understand!
Alan
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110v MP has already been done and it went 80kph I think.
So whats that, just a tiny bit over double the speed than at 52v. Like my rocket science version? :D
Yeahhh do it.
I love the Volt Aamp watt relation at high volts. Like when your motor is pulling 20 amps every 12v increase equates 240 watt gains.
When you get the high voltage motor say at 76v one only needs to increase the current input by 3.1 amps to gain 240 watts.