GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => eBike Mods/Legalization => Topic started by: o00scorpion00o on June 30, 2010, 04:48:32 PM
-
Hi again everyone, I'm typing this in a much happier mood. I soldered an extra shunt on the pie controller and holy Jesus! Does she fly, the beast of a pie!!! I could feel the whole bike lift off the ground as she wanted to fly! The torque is amazing. I could not believe the difference. It's got WAY more torque than my old kit, my friend Pat couldn't believe it too as I left him standing, the acceleration is amazing!
Once you hit 24-25 mph the pie starts to relax, so that leads me to believe there is a speed limit too as well as a current limit! Around 24-25 she pulls around 700-800 watts, But max 2000 watts on acceleration!!!!
I can live with those speeds as the torque is so much fun and climbs hills so much easier. Now all I have to do is make a much stronger torque arm as the old one is starting to give already. So if anyone attempts to do this mod, make sure you have a VERY strong torque arm and dump those torque washers that came with the pie if you are using them I wouldn't trust them! Speaking of torque arms, does anyone know why GM don't offer them as an extra with the kit? Those torque washers don't fit every bike, and didn't fit mine!
I can understand GM taming such a beast because maybe they want to make sure it's reliable with the internal controller especially.
I would love to see them offer different kits, one for people like me who love power, and others that are road legal. For power users the limit should be taken off the internal controller so that people can actually turn it up or down as they wish.
I know my warranty is gone now, but I really wasn't happy the way it was. The pie will be good enough for most people and as a first kit it's really easy to install, The long cables are a pain, maybe a short cable option in the future?
I will keep you posted as to the reliability of the motor and controller and hopefully it will not die! It would be very nice to be able to install thermistors, one for the motor, one for the controller so I know when to relax the throttle.
Anyway here are the pics of the mod.
-
That is really interesting. Thats how my pie is now but not as juicy as yours for sure. But it rocks ups to 25 and then stops hauling. My batteries are 16s life so 55vish.
Stan
-
yes that is interesting. If they have limited the speed in some way I wonder if you used the controller out of a smaller pie if it would go faster assuming they would want the small pie to go as fast as a large one.
-
ya it's all very interesting stuff. Could I be so cheeky as to say that maybe GM want us to buy the dual pies to make up for the low torque.
They might not like me saying that. And maybe it isn't fair as I have not tested out the pie at all long enough. But on my 4 mile spin today it was barely warm. I know that is not an indication of the temp of the controller, or the windings for that matter. But I have felt hot motors before. My old 1000w motor got hot at 1100 watts, The pie was pulling 1kw - 2kw for short bursts. I really unleashed a beast that's for sure!
It would be really cool if there was some way I could install a wireless thermistor, one for controller and motor and power it off the controller and send it to a display on the handlebars! If it does heat up too much than I will try install some better heatsink.
I know from other forums of phase wires melting and people having to join thicker wires at the axel, but the beauty of the pie is they are so short between controller and motor!
Anyway my friend pat is making the torque arms, one for each side. He is good at that kind of stuff. I will post more when I get a good few tests done. I hope I don't burn my pie!
-
Hey scorpion
Awesome post mate.... Gets me thinking -- I'll be trying this in the near future but probably have mine switched via a fet as I believe the additional power consumption will greatly reduce range.. Do you know what sort of range you are getting now?
Sending a wireless signal through the hub could be a problem due to the magnetic field the motor generates.. Thanks heaps for putting pics up, I'm tempted to do this to my 16" cast which will probably flip my bike over!!
Thanks pal
-
Hey scorpion
Awesome post mate.... Gets me thinking -- I'll be trying this in the near future but probably have mine switched via a fet as I believe the additional power consumption will greatly reduce range.. Do you know what sort of range you are getting now?
Sending a wireless signal through the hub could be a problem due to the magnetic field the motor generates.. Thanks heaps for putting pics up, I'm tempted to do this to my 16" cast which will probably flip my bike over!!
Thanks pal
Hi MonkeyMagic. No no idea of range yet really. I'm dying to get out on it again. But I have to wait for my torque arms. So hopefully pat will have them ready later. Acceleration was fantastic, once I reached about 25 mph the power backed off to about 700-800 watts, So that would help with range, I wonder if the pie will go faster as there seems to be some limit to it?
I don't know much about controllers, shunts etc, But from looking around on the net I kinda figured out that adding an extra shunt can increase the current, so I just installed another and it worked! It shows the potential this motor has, so hopefully I can get to do a few reliability tests today or tomorrow.
I must say I am very unhappy that GM decided to hold back the controller so much. Why bother with the usb cable at all? In the software it says 30 amps continuous, 50 max. Why don't they have 14 or 15 max showing up. As I said before it would be really cool to have the option to make it as powerful as I have it now, or be able to turn it down. Or let GM offer the kit as legal only, or send it out the way I got it, with the limit!
I'm just thinking wouldn't it be nice if they offered a control panel for the handlebars that would let you turn the amps up or down, or to adjust speed limits, monitor temps etc. I and I'm sure many others would pay good money for that!!!
-
Just went for a 8 mile spin no problems, 8 miles I used 4 amps. That was throttle only, between 17-20mph couldn't stand to go faster way too windy. There was a few hills along the way. even though the top speed is between 24-26mph, it's able to hold the speed better because of the extra torque. I love the cruise option, being able to set it around 14mph then peddle and watch the watts drop! I didn't peddle much though. I don't know if I will reach the 20-25 miles throttle only as on the old motor, but it sure is a lot of fun feeling the acceleration. It puts a smile on my face every time. The only thing I have to watch is the front wheel lifting off the road! ;D This is sure a monster of a motor, hopefully it will prove reliable for me. The motor was only luke warm. If you live in a hot climate or do miles of uphill riding, then there might be heat issues, then again you could set the cruise and peddle along I'm sure the pie would like the rest!
-
Whoa I need to do this with my dual pie bike
-
Whoa I need to do this with my dual pie bike
Hi vapid2323, I think you are mad if you do this to 2 pies LMAO. you will fly! ;D I'm not even crazy enough to do this mod on front forks, Just remember to have some VERY strong torque arms on each side. Front or back. Try it on the rear wheel first. If your axels spin and you are going fast you will be hurt, that or you will have a pain in the ass fixing cables!
Also make sure your battery is capable of supplying the current, I would use two with dual pie mod.
Anyway good luck if you try this, and be careful! And don't burn the pie! ;D
Let me know how it goes.
-
Yah I plan to find some damn good torque arms, I might need them custom >.<
-
Hi
Interesting thread about the shunt bypass.
And take the time to program your controller to meet the BMS and motor specs.
The internal controller is design is to stop the heat from motor going into the Fets and heat sink paste and the like. watch out! be sure you know which direction the heat is dissipating if youre considering improving thermal pathways from you PCB.
Pushing the amps like you are you may want to consider removing the internal controller all together.
Enjoy. ;D
-
Hi scorpion, I'm a little confused whether you've bypassed the existing shunt or have parralleled up with another shunt.
If you've parralleled up then a proportion of the current will still be sensed by the controller and you should be able to limit the current level with the software by bringing the maximum current level proportionally lower.
Can you do this ? It would be great if this mod would still allow us current control but at a higher level.
-
Hi scorpion, I'm a little confused whether you've bypassed the existing shunt or have parralleled up with another shunt.
If you've parralleled up then a proportion of the current will still be sensed by the controller and you should be able to limit the current level with the software by bringing the maximum current level proportionally lower.
Can you do this ? It would be great if this mod would still allow us current control but at a higher level.
Its a bypass by parallel. There is a current feeder with the red arrows. I think its important to define the meaning of shunt and bypass in this situation.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2640;image)
As you can see there is a current feeder or shunt to the fets already marked in red. He has just made the currnet pathway phat where I marked this in pink.
A shunt is designed to limit a circuit in this case, anything used to pass more current to the fets is a bypass IMHO.
Pictures are hard to tell how fat that original track actually is. It is a relief to know that the current isnt limited by deeper code than the program controller cable software can alter.
PS:
Scropion
I did noticed you fixed that blob there on the positive input.
Just a little bit of moisture could cause heat around the varnish coat between it and the phase track and burn the varnish off the track and result in a failure.
-
It could be the picture just showing an extrusion that we can not see the trace behind.
But!
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2642;image)
You may have made it worse with the solder over the phase track here. The solder heat when soldering will weaken the varnish. Youve been lucky here. I would go back and fix it.
-
well spotted 317537. I'll fix her up before I go out today. thanks.
I wonder what the heat is like inside? The outside of the motor only gets Luke warm, God knows how hot the controller gets. The old motor got very warm after a few miles full throttle.
Pandy, I have not adjusted the settings in the controller as I broke my usb cable and it's beyond repair. So I will have to buy a new one. Also It might be worth buying an external magic controller in case I fry the internal one! Does anyone know any other controllers that would work with the pie? I like the magic controller but it's a real pain to hide the wires, I would prefer if they were like the old ones, they were easier mount, and you could hide the wires easier by the way the cables came out. It would be a real pain getting phase wires and hall wires through the axle.
One thing I noticed on the first controller I had on my old kit before the magic controller was the relay, when you connected the battery there was no spark. I think that was good. It would be so nice to have an on off switch at the handlebars. I hate having to pull apart anderson connectors to kill the power. And I find it impossible to find a high current switch!
Ok I'm off to re solder talk later
-
Yeah take a big picture like you did and check the whole board via the PC. It will take a while longer than it would just by eye.
This is the beauty of digital photography doing electronics. Like I just did then, You spot see the smallest of problems.
-
I designed a relay and auto precharge circuit that can take 24v to 60.
http://www.ficrelay.com.hk/details/FRA4.pdf
Can handle 7200 watts at 240v 30 amps AC,
The precharge is cute,
Battery and controller goes directly to the contact tabs of the relay. A wire leads from the battery contact of the relay to an Lm338 to bump the voltage down to 48v to my relay coil delay circuit and to my lm2576 switcher regulator for my lights.
I used one poles throw of a DPDT rocker switch to bypass the relay contacts to send through a, resistor, thermistor setup 300ma to the controller and the other pole throw goes through a thermistor to a LM317t @12v to charge 2200uf cap around the relay coil at 12v You must limit the volts to under 48v to the LM317t as it can only do a 37v drop over any voltage.
The cap charges slower so the rocker switch resistors to the controller has a chance to precharge the controller caps. The thermistor to the LM317t limits the current surge that may result by charging capactor on the relay, must not allow more tahn 1.5 amps to pass the lm317t to the coil delay cap.
I used a diode in somewhere to block something somewhere, I forget but if youre interested I can put some more effort into this tell you more about how it works.
-
I designed a relay and auto precharge circuit that can take 24v to 60.
http://www.ficrelay.com.hk/details/FRA4.pdf
Can handle 7200 watts at 240v 30 amps AC,
The precharge is cute,
Battery and controller goes directly to the contact tabs of the relay. A wire leads from the battery contact of the relay to an Lm338 to bump the voltage down to 48v to my relay coil delay circuit and to my lm2576 switcher regulator for my lights.
I used one poles throw of a DPDT rocker switch to bypass the relay contacts to send through a, resistor, thermistor setup 300ma to the controller and the other pole throw goes through a thermistor to a LM317t @12v to charge 2200uf cap around the relay coil at 12v You must limit the volts to under 48v to the LM317t as it can only do a 37v drop over any voltage.
The cap charges slower so the rocker switch resistors to the controller coil has a chance to precharge the controller caps. The thermistor to the LM317t limits the current surge that may result by charging capactor on the relay, must not allow more tahn 1.5 amps to pass the lm317t to the coil delay cap.
I used a diode in somewhere to block something somewhere, I forget but if youre interested I can put some more effort into this tell you more about how it works.
Thanks 317537, I think for the moment I will just see how it goes with reliability. I resolderd the wire, was actually raised above the track altogether and would not have came in contact, You could only see it from an angle. Thanks for spotting the possibility of a burned pie though! ;)
I'm dying to get on the bike again, but the weather is not so good, still windy and many heavy showers, and looks set to continue until next weekend, but hopefully I'll get out now and again.
-
Sorry to put you through all that, it could be a lot worse if the solder was like the picture looked.
Time to get the wet weather gear out.
Clear safety glasses to stop rain pelting your eyes out.
water proof trousers.
Gum boots
Ski mitts are awesome in winter keep you fingers togethr and warm..
Rain proof jacket.
Any other ideas for some good wet weather apparel?
-
Sorry to put you through all that, it could be a lot worse if the solder was like the picture looked.
Time to get the wet weather gear out.
Clear safety glasses to stop rain pelting your eyes out.
water proof trousers.
Gum boots
Ski mitts are awesome in winter keep you fingers togethr and warm..
Rain proof jacket.
Any other ideas for some good wet weather apparel?
Better to be safe than sorry, I really didn't notice it, I was surprised by how the camera takes good close ups.
I got a great cure for bad weather. called Indoors with a nice cup of tea! ;D The wind is a real pain here, but would be good for a wind turbine! We also get lots of rain, so I don't think I should ride much in the rain. I stick to my trusty 200000 mile audi diesel for winter lol
I am waiting for others to try the mod, Because I want to see what people think of the torque! I wonder how it compares to the likes of the bmc black lightning 1kw motor? or even the bmc v2 torque. But I'm well impressed with it! If the worst happens I will install an external controller. Maybe the magic controller.
where are you from 317537 if you don't mind me asking?
-
Queensland Australia.
I never had a licence and I live 10kms ride to any shops with 7 other souls that rely upon me. so these bikes are the backbone to my life.
It doesnt get too cold down up here, cold enough to puts my great coat on and a couple of layers of under garments and a thick scarf. Forget using pedals with all the gear on. Maybe a little pedals to get the blood warm.
Any cold really gets amplified by the wind.
You just need to look at motor cyclist gear, it can be done. 8)
As far as I can tell your original shunt is in the wrong place. I think at least it should go after the 63v cap because the fets are always draining the cap dry with every switching event and it is a small cap too.
all my other controllers negative - input feed go straight to the cap negative terminal then lead to a shunt then to the fets. Not to the shunt, then to the cap, then to the fets.
You can see in this picture the topography between your controller and a MC 36v earlier version. These modifications mayber put inplace to add reliability to the controller under regen. All this gets a little complicated and I need to work out how the changes alter the physics of the circuit.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2664;image)
Certainly that brown cap is very small and would possibly be effected by the switching load of the fet through the shunt into the larger cap and all depends on the smaller brown caps positive feed on the other side too.
On other magic controllers I have seen they use a much larger caps, where on your controller there is only a small cap in their place.
-
Certainly that brown cap is very small and would possibly be effected by the switching load of the fet through the shunt into the larger cap and all depends on the smaller brown caps positive feed on the other side too.
On other magic controllers I have seen they use a much larger caps, where on your controller there is only a small cap in their place.
Leslie, the Pie's controller has some of its capacitors mounted on the opposite side of the PCB:
(https://i.imgur.com/4dmLnax.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GtynVo3.png)
The smaller brown one is probably fitted in addition to the large one on the rear.
Alan
-
Certainly that brown cap is very small and would possibly be effected by the switching load of the fet through the shunt into the larger cap and all depends on the smaller brown caps positive feed on the other side too.
On other magic controllers I have seen they use a much larger caps, where on your controller there is only a small cap in their place.
The smaller brown one is probably fitted in addition to the large one on the rear.
Alan
Or probably not. The 15 amp limit may indicate this is a magic controller that was made for the minimotor and the programing ability was there to allow the 24v operation and stuff from long ago..
Why the tiny little polyester cap in the first place if there is a huge electrolytic under it? There is no point unless youre talking low ESR tantalum voltage ripple filters. .
But alas you are right, unless we see the otherside of the board I can only speculate..
-
I put some further thought into the other caps that may be on the other side,.
If there are other caps on the other side of that 63v electrolytic cap, the cap that on his board is glued straight over with no glue between solder joints of the suspected cap underneath. Electrolytic cap cases are great for a short circuit when mounted on a PCB in such a way. As I posted before the brown cap has no use with a larger cap ontop. It would only add picofarads to the larger cap its in parallel with.
The evidence I would say is pointing towards that there is nothing underneath.
-
Hey guys, In case you haven't seen the thread on ES about similar versions of these controllers.
It should handle 2000w ok, I tested up to 4800w without issue, eventually reduced the shunt resistance too much which killed it. If you do try it don't do it continuously and don't go higher, especially being inside the motor's case I'd limit it to around 3000w for normal road riding, but it depends on how and where you're riding, since it only peaks out at low rpm.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11015
I run my off-road bike with a controller that has 12 of the same fets that are inside magic controllers, and I push it to 5kw max from full to empty.
-
hi again. Another update. I cooked my controller. I went up a fairly steep hill, It pulled like a train all the way up. Got to the top and stopped to check if I could feel heat. It was warm, good I said, Started off again then no power. 5 beeps. So I guess I cooked the controller :'(.
My god has this motor got some muscle. It is addictive, Correction, WAS!
I wonder how hard is it to order another controller? as they don't have any on the site. The external magic controller pcb won't fit, because of the caps locations etc. The other thing I could do is run phase & hall wires through the axle and use the external magic controller. Does anyone now if I will get more top speed from the external?
-
Doesnt 5 beeps mean controller went into LVC or something. Actually the documentation for that one reads unknown Email tom.
Like ::)
Well ya warranty is void. At least you got over that one pretty fast.
LOL
Remove the internal controller already.
Replace the fets there are only 6 of them. Put in the 100v version fets and some 100v caps.
You can come up with a thermal solution now.
Maybe mount the controller fets onto a massive heat sink. It may suit you keep the fets cool.
-
There are some better parts out there.
I found a replacement as it seems with better on-resistance and a higher voltage rate. Give it a little time and we see if we can make the Pie magic again.
-
Doesnt 5 beeps mean controller went into LVC or something. Actually the documentation for that one reads unknown Email tom.
Like ::)
Well ya warranty is void. At least you got over that one pretty fast.
LOL
Remove the internal controller already.
Replace the fets there are only 6 of them. Put in the 100v version fets and some 100v caps.
You can come up with a thermal solution now.
Maybe mount the controller fets onto a massive heat sink. It may suit you keep the fets cool.
I remember replacing 2 fet's in the external controller. I remember they were a B***h to remove with all the solder on both sides.
If I remember correctly I thought those fet's were supposed to handle 140 amps?
Would changing caps to 100 volts matter much as my battery is only 52 volts?
I went up the hill at max throttle and the speed picked up quick, and it only pulled about 35 amps max, Max current I saw on take off was around 65 amps! As I said the pie was still working when I got off to check for heat, It's only when I went to pull off, I turned the throttle on and off a few times so as not to flip her over on the hill, ( seriously It had that much torque!) to try and take off easier, Maybe it didn't like that?
When the external controller died before, there was no power at all, and the battery bms tripped, This time there is power and 5 beeps, But the wheel is harder to turn, so I've no doubt there is fried fet's!
-
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/9231.pdf
Here are the fets I am pretty sure you have,
75v R-on 75mOhm 120 amps max
Or look at these ones.
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/8220/ste250ns10.pdf
100v R-on 55mOhm 240 amps max,
These fets allow you to run wires off you board and the wires can be screwed, your fet bridge made into a module. Once you get your fets off the logic board you can go for all you like. Make it suck the earth's gravity into your pie and spit dirt out in return.
Replace all six fets with high voltage, high current wire. Now just hook those babies up to the right connections and by the power of luck it should work.
-
Modulating your contoller in such a way only has you getting your solder gun on the board once. Just cut the old ones off.
One of the wires off the ISOTOP fet terminals for both source and drain can shunt straight to their coresponding power poles.
If you were to screw eyelets and insert there wire connectors into the core of some good thick wire all the solder eyelets solid onto the wires for the ISOTOP FETs screw conncetions I cant see how it wouldnt be an ample solution with good rewards. Look for silver eyelets . . Best conductors would be a refreshing approach towards these types fets.
-
Really all you need is a path to ground to the controller and the PWM signal into the gates of your fets you can get your main source and drain from the motor and battery.
So then the power leads to your controller only need to a of a small gauge you can then controll the voltage easikly to your controller and overvolt to 72v in the future when you need to updgrade your pack. so two small wires from each fet need to come from the PCB. Hmm 12 wires
Biasing those fets for your need will be fun. You can make them trigger precision at all voltages if you want.
Are you sure your controller is fried? Maybe Email Tom not for a return and ask him what to do?
-
Edit:
maybe use a small cap for sharing gate clamp voltages and from the controller to avoid messing with nothing other than putting in wires , This way you don't have any impedance issues over adding more modules.
Then parrallel another module to get even lower on-resistance any time you want without touching solder to the controller.
Ive actually never done this BTW, but I am getting to building it myself.
I all ready have enhancement mode modules that triger at the touch of a finger running speed controll if I press harder. Great idea but not great with sweaty hands.
-
Hi 317537, I think it's all a little too complicated for me lol. I Install new fet's no problem. But other than that, my knowledge of electronics is fairly limited!
I could follow pics maybe lol hint hint!
I bet one or two fet's are toast because of the fact the wheel is hard to turn, that's basically from my experience with my other controller!
I wonder did it fry because of over current or heat? I thought the controller had thermal protection?
How about 6 of these? IRFB4110PBF
I think it will be hard to mount some other kind of heatsink in there, But I think the fet's should be individually bolted to the heatsink!
-
Sorry I got a little excited. I do have some bits I could try out.
I got one HBS hub inductance tests are spot on and halls are operational.
1 dead old GM regen controller.
And now I need some of those fets you just posted.
IRFB4110PBF
Oh yeah, they certainly have the ability to run the motor.
Do you think I could get away with just using one gate feed off each chanell?
Ok Ill give it a try.
Ill try run my HBS off my own fet bridge from the logic of a dead GM 36v controller.
Ohhh BTW do it. Replace the fets. ;D
-
I Wish I had an electronics store closer then 50 miles. Such a pain! :'(
Does anyone know if more speed can be got from this Magic Pie before I fix the controller and close it up again?
I think I will remove the shunt and solder some thin wire and see if it tames it down enough, as it is hard to keep the front wheel on the ground. Does anyone know if the controller has some soft start option? I see speed scale, My cable is broken and I can't fix it. it would be interesting if I could still turn the amps down via the software. I just wish I could get more speed though!
317537. I opened up the controller and found 1 dead fet! Maybe that's the reason the controller was actually still alive? Usually I would find 2 or more fried! I am still wondering was it over current or heat that killed it. If it was heat then that means the thermal protection didn't work, or maybe it hasn't got any?
-
I Wish I had an electronics store closer then 50 miles. Such a pain! :'(
Does anyone know if more speed can be got from this Magic Pie before I fix the controller and close it up again?
I think I will remove the shunt and solder some thin wire and see if it tames it down enough, as it is hard to keep the front wheel on the ground. Does anyone know if the controller has some soft start option? I see speed scale, My cable is broken and I can't fix it. it would be interesting if I could still turn the amps down via the software. I just wish I could get more speed though!
317537. I opened up the controller and found 1 dead fet! Maybe that's the reason the controller was actually still alive? Usually I would find 2 or more fried! I am still wondering was it over current or heat that killed it. If it was heat then that means the thermal protection didn't work, or maybe it hasn't got any?
Ok your mod may of been a little robust, more than 50 amps. Hold your horses if you gets it fixed and review the circuit and all its parts and what they are doing and why.
Possibly the cap did some damage when you pulled to much power through its leads and noise got into your DC power line causing the cap to draw current and switching spikes from the motor, when the fet switches off if that cap is drained low enough when the fet was on it will conduct very high current to fill back up from both sides of the input and output through the motor to the positive track. The coils are inductive so they will give this cap what it needs and so will the battery but the lack of resistnace may be tipping towards the motor side more than the battery side with all the series cells and BMS solid state resistance allowing a less solid supply to your controller. Hence the need for caps in the first place to filter out any noise that can come into your system..
You bypassed the shunt to that 63v cap and that shunt may of been what was limiting the that caps demand on the current back from the motor by shunting the path to ground to the said cap.
Its hard to tell we need more data. I can simulate this in spice if I gets more data on the caps and how much current the Pie was able to draw with your mod would help too.
What are the caps there. We were discussing whether or not your controller has the big caps like in MC 36v the picture or Bikemads MP has some behind the circuit board. . I assumed there was nothing under that brown cap.
Is that brown cap have anything parallel with it it or is that the only cap before the shunt?
-
On some controllers I am seeing the polyester cap over the shunt to filter ripples out over the shunt, and the shunts always come after the main cap not before so that there is good power to the caps and the shunts limit how those caps are drained.
Placing a resistor shunt before the caps just seems to allow a lot of noise as the resitance is stopping the caps from recharging and the motor is at risk of draining the caps dry if the shunt is not providing enough current from the battery.
-
hi 317537. here are some pics that might explain things better.
I saw on the cycle analyst where the peak current draw was around 120 amps, lol. R.I.P! ::)
However On the actual readings on take off, I noticed around 65 amps max. Climbing the hill was around 30-35 amps max. Once the speed picks up the current draw reduces a lot. That is why I think pulling the throttle quickly every second or two is what maybe drew excessive current on the hill, very low if any rpm, because I was very concious of doing wheelies and falling off! :o
I would love to see what this motor's torque actually is at that current.
do you think then 317537 that I should have put a shunt parallel to the existing one, or maybe just added soder, or a much lesser gage wire?
-
Id replace the big cap you have there with a tantalum 100uf low esr cap its there to absorb spikes not provide energy to your fets. Beef up the caps before your shunt and look around for a decent shunt bar that is rated.
I can send you some 10 amp shunts from my junk pile, replace the one thats on your controller with three 10 amp shunt bars for 30 amps and they are very thin compared to your mod.
Beef up all the tracks from you power pole to the shunt and use the shunts I send you only.
-
hi 317537. here are some pics that might explain things better.
I saw on the cycle analyst where the peak current draw was around 120 amps, lol. R.I.P! ::)
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
LOL you maxed the limit of the fets man. Well done.
-
If you PM me with your details I will send you the shunts this wednesday when I go into town. They should arrive to you by next week.
I will send you them for free.
-
Thanks 317537, Just sent you a P.M. :)
Should I replace both the 470uf 63v caps? they wouldn't be bigger would they as there is not a lot of room in there. How low esr is good enough? his is as close as I can find, did you see the price??? :o :o :o :o :o :o
http://ie.farnell.com/vishay-tansitor/135d107x9060f6e3/capacitor-tant-100uf-60v-2-5ohm/dp/1618665
Also I think I will replace the fet with the same, as I will tame it down a bit as the torque is too much to handle, maybe I can adjust it with the software to my requirements.
Also where should I install the other two shunts as there is only place for 1 if I remove the old one? and would it be better to install just 1, 30 amp shunt instead?
Sorry for bombarding you with all the questions lol
-
Thanks 317537, Just sent you a P.M. :)
Should I replace both the 470uf 63v caps? they wouldn't be bigger would they as there is not a lot of room in there. How low esr is good enough? his is as close as I can find, did you see the price??? :o :o :o :o :o :o
http://ie.farnell.com/vishay-tansitor/135d107x9060f6e3/capacitor-tant-100uf-60v-2-5ohm/dp/1618665
Also I think I will replace the fet with the same, as I will tame it down a bit as the torque is too much to handle, maybe I can adjust it with the software to my requirements.
Also where should I install the other two shunts as there is only place for 1 if I remove the old one? and would it be better to install just 1, 30 amp shunt instead?
Sorry for bombarding you with all the questions lol
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216474#p216474 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216474#p216474)
You want to run as much capacitance as you can.
Lowering the input capacitance will increase your chance of failure.
When they cost about $1.50 I cant see any argument for running anything less than 100V 1000uF
I can fit a 100V 1000uF in a 6 fet Infineon for the input
For the rail you can fit a 100uF 100V
For the regulator you can fit a 100uF 100V
Basically the same values as stock but 100V instead of 63V
There is a trade-off between the size of the cap and the length of the leads.
I would personally rather have a 1000uF Low ESR cap with slightly longer leads than a 470uF cap with shorter leads
Capacitance is your friend.
even if you don't run a higher volt the 100v caps with high voltage spikes will be less hot and operate better from what I read. I do have some old switchmode board laying around with some very stocky interesting looking LOW ESR 100v caps on board.
We can look at our options before I send you the shunts.
-
Thanks 317537, Just sent you a P.M. :)
I can adjust it with the software to my requirements.
Hi
Interesting thread about the shunt bypass.
And take the time to program your controller to meet the BMS and motor specs.
You were warned to do this on the first page. .
I tend to be good at seeing the warning signs because I have made almost every mistake in the book 4 times over.
However!
This is interesting.
Is the software in this case going to help your fets survive? What AMPS was the controller set to, to begin with? would of it made a difference to peak currents and voltages? Maybe not hence the need for the shunt to begin with.
-
Thanks 317537, Just sent you a P.M. :)
I can adjust it with the software to my requirements.
Hi
Interesting thread about the shunt bypass.
And take the time to program your controller to meet the BMS and motor specs.
You were warned to do this on the first page. .
I tend to be good at seeing the warning signs because I have made almost every mistake in the book 4 times over.
However!
This is interesting.
Is the software in this case going to help your fets survive? What AMPS was the controller set to, to begin with? would of it made a difference to peak currents and voltages? Maybe not hence the need for the shunt to begin with.
Hi 317537, I didn't try the software after the mod because the cable broke. Wires detached from inside. The cable grip is not so good. So I don't know if it would have made a difference. The controller came set for 30 amps continuous 50 max. But obviously 14 max is all I got. The only thing I changed was the voltage which was set for 24 volts! Turning the amps down to 3 made a difference straight away!
The only fet's I will be able to get are IRFB3207ZPBF and are rated to 170 amps and 75 volts. I don't know if I should replace all or just the blown fet because if I'm turning the amps down, I should not reach the 120 amps again?
-
IRFB3207ZPBF.
From the looks it will work fine.
About replacing a single mosfet, one guy here at GM forums replaced one fet with a 50v fet and its still going. Pretty sure he was using a 36v pack though.
The resistance is a little lower on the IRFB3207ZPBF not sure how this will behave with the other fets. It might be a good idea to replace all of them, I would.
-
Ok 317537. I will replace them all tomorrow. And remove the link.
Off to bed now though!
-
Ok 317537. I will replace them all tomorrow. And remove the link.
Off to bed now though!
Good luck.
I sincerly hope your sort it out. Possibly the original shunt wasnt soldered properly in place to begin with.
You could cut some short resistor lead wire. I Just tested some 10 watt resistor lead over an amp meter and it was good for 15 amps. I think 5 watt resistor lead is good for 10 amps. This all depends on the whether the shunt is solid with its soldering..
If you buy a few 5 watt resistors maybe cut and add 2 or 3 of the leads in the place of the GM shunt, from the pics it doesnt look rated.
-
Here is another fet that could work.
IRFP2907
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp2907.pdf (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp2907.pdf)
You can get 10 here for $39.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10-pcs-IRFP2907-IRFP-2907-IR-Power-MOSFET-N-Channel-/370401488583?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563da62ec7 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10-pcs-IRFP2907-IRFP-2907-IR-Power-MOSFET-N-Channel-/370401488583?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563da62ec7)
Not cheap. But looking at the datasheet they seem to perform better under hot conditions than the IRFB3207ZPBF.
The amps are limted by the package at around 90 amps but its silicon limit is 204 amps.
Its RDS(on) is 4.7mO
Its turn on delay is low at 23ns this to me gives a good reason why we should forgive its rise time at 190ns and off and fall time at 130ns under a lab load of 204 amps. How it would perform under a lighter load with a good hair trigger is obvious with its on resistance of 4.7mO
I did up a comparison of the datasheet with current and temp coefficiency.
And I thought I add the GM STB140NF75 fet in green.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2677;image)
The STB140NF75 comes ahead of the IRFB3207ZPBF.in the Pie current area.
The IRFB3207ZPBF is King of the 90 and 120 amp range,
Where as the IRFP2907 is the all round performer hands down under 90 amps.
I marked in yellow the current capability advantages of the IRFB3207ZPBF over the IRFP2907 and thermal advatages of the IRFB3207ZPBF has over the STB140NF75
I marked in blue the advatages of the STB140NF75 thermal advatage over the IRFB3207ZPBF.
And I marked in blue-green the thermal advantages advantages of the IRFP2907
Please excuse any inaccuracies towards the STB140NF75 as the temperature scale was hard to blen I just did a few plots and jouined the dots.
One thing that stood out is the STB140NF75 could do 100 amps at 100oC. and possibly that the internal controller are not too up to modding current shunts to max without some special considerations to the parts used.
The IRFP2907 can give up 50 more amps at 150oc Thats still 90 amps at 150oc compared to 40 amps the IRFB3207ZPBF at the same temperature. This to me shows that the IRFB3207ZPBF struggles under high temperature conditions and suffers more from thremal runaway..
The IRFP2907 can still run a 30 amp MP at 170oc where as the IRFB3207ZPBF is lucky to provide 5 amps at this temperature.
The package isnt a T0-220 with bare metal exposed and probably has less chance of picking up thermals in the motor and bringing heat close to the dye.
I could be wrong and the IRFP2907 package does seem less atractive on the graph at higher current draw due to the package limitation, IMHO the IRFP2907 will out perform the IRFB3207ZPBF with the internal controller application with the MP.
Maybe these findings should be something for GM to look into in the future and maybe something we only think about for now. A fet like this would bring up the price of the controller in the MP wheel $30 or so but may just be worth the additional expense when considering an internal controller.
-
Last thing I will ask is could you provide the forum some pics of the work you do and some text of how you did it.
-
Hi 317537, I ended up ordering the IRFB3207ZPBF. Pity I didn't see your posts until now!
Of course after driving 110 miles to find a few poxy mosfets. They had 0 in stock after I checked their stock on the internet last night. I was not impressed! Anyway they will have them tomorrow and I have already paid for them.
Do you think they will be ok if I try keep as close to the controllers original specs? 30amps continuous 50 max? I think the pie will still have some serious torque at those ratings!
maybe someday I will hook it up to an external controller, Something maybe that has a soft start option, The torque of the pie @60amps start off, maybe more peak? is so much that it is too hard to take off steady and then trying to keep the front wheel on the road. But once you get going it is really a thrill! ;D
I really don't think anyone would need a bmc torque or even bmc 3, though the geared motors do seem to give more speed for the same voltage. I would love to compare those 2 motors with the pie fed with the same batteries and controllers!
Anyway I will get some 5w resistors as you suggested and remove the original shunt and see what happens.
I love experimenting with these things lol. I will take pics too just in case I don't spot a potential fault before I fire it up!
-
317527 how about 3 of these?
http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6926804
-
Resistors for some really weird reason are not the same as shunts. Shunts are like reallly tiny in resistance and do not waste the same energy .
Resistors make a long track for energy to get from one end to another where as shunts use the shortest distance between two points and the maximum a piece of metal can take approach.
(http://speakerbug.com.au/shop/images/WireWound_68ohm_small.jpg)
You need standard resistors leads. Like the resistor above. You cant use a diode or anything else. It has to be a standard resistor lead and you will have the perfect shunt.
Resistor leads just stick to the normal ceramic resistors are perfect shunts as the leads are designed to a very tight spec. The purity and guage has to be spot on for the resistor to have military spec tolerances. Suprising that the science behind resistors does all go back to temperature.
The 10 watt ceramic resistor I cut the lead an inch long off the leads and shorted it across my a battery with my AMP meter the resitor lead gave exactly 15 amps not a ma more. I blew my multimeter up so I couldnt test the other resistors. :-\
-
Resistors for some really weird reason are not the same as shunts. Shunts are like reallly tiny in resistance and do not waste the same energy .
Resistors make a long track for energy to get from one end to another where as shunts use the shortest distance between two points and the maximum a piece of metal can take approach.
(http://speakerbug.com.au/shop/images/WireWound_68ohm_small.jpg)
You need standard resistors leads. Like the resistor above. You cant use a diode or anything else. It has to be a standard resistor lead and you will have the perfect shunt.
Resistor leads just stick to the normal ceramic resistors are perfect shunts as the leads are designed to a very tight spec. The purity and guage has to be spot on for the resistor to have military spec tolerances. Suprising that the science behind resistors does all go back to temperature.
The 10 watt ceramic resistor I cut the lead an inch long off the leads and shorted it across my a battery with my AMP meter the resitor lead gave exactly 15 amps not a ma more. I blew my multimeter up so I couldnt test the other resistors. :-\
Okay I will give it a shot. Hopefully I will get it all up and running by tomorrow night :)
-
The reason I blew my multimeter up on that lead was because I wasnt using the proper multimeter leads. The resistance of the lead shunt was so low there was no drop allowed over the shunts ends.
There is a reason why one should use proper multimeter leads. They are designed to melt and take the load off the meter. GOod set of probes can take 15 amps easy without melting in about a 5 seconds load test.
There is no reason why you cant test a few resitors leads though.
I think the 1/4 watt resistor gives 2 amps and makes a good fuse as well for a charger. And I think 1/2 resistor watt gives 3 amps and a 1 watt gives 5 amps.
You can test them on any 12v lead acid battery on a proper meter with no problem.
You then can get it spot on within 2 amps. Its not like parallel resitors you can just add a 10 amp and a 15 amp in parallel and get 35 amps.
I would go for 30 amp shunt in place of the old one. You can beef up the tracks from shunt the to the power pole,
Set the MP for 25 amps cont and 30 amps max and I bet you will be happy with these settings.
-
okay all fet's are in place and the shunts. So I think I'm ready to fire her up and hopefully there will not be any smoke!
If it works I will then order a new usb cable to tinker with the current settings.
-
I hooked it all up, put her on the bike, connected battery turned throttle and yepeeeeeeeee, Decided to give her full throttle and axel spun, I didn't tighten the nuts, OK I didn't even put them on, I just wanted to see if it worked before I put it all together! Yes I'm an idiot!
I wonder will Tom send me a new one?
-
I hooked it all up, put her on the bike, connected battery turned throttle and yepeeeeeeeee, Decided to give her full throttle and axel spun, I didn't tighten the nuts, OK I didn't even put them on, I just wanted to see if it worked before I put it all together! Yes I'm an idiot!
I wonder will Tom send me a new one?
I was hoping to see some good news in here.
At least your doing mods with the right attitude, I like that about you, youre not whining like a little baby. I don't know GM may send you a new harness if you email them with some datails, it may cost you though.
That close you were... ::)
8)
-
I hooked it all up, put her on the bike, connected battery turned throttle and yepeeeeeeeee, Decided to give her full throttle and axel spun, I didn't tighten the nuts, OK I didn't even put them on, I just wanted to see if it worked before I put it all together! Yes I'm an idiot!
I wonder will Tom send me a new one?
No youre not an idiot. You just like to tinker man. We learn nothing without these experiences. When you know where you went wrong youre learn 10 times more and to come here and openly share this with us makes you all the more worth any time that I or any one here may spend with you.
This thread is going epic with some very good data coming from the text and pics. The reward at the end will be to have your wheel working the way you want.
Pick yourself up and dust off your coat and try again.
Ps:
Can you show us some pics as to what has happened to your wires.
Edit:
Disconnect the battery and clean up the wires, You may have to replce all of them.
Make sure there is no damage to the PCB. where the wires connect.
You can probably go with an external controller as it may be easier to make the changes you want without taking off the hub.
Depending on the damage there are a many options from your stand point.
-
ok after taking it all apart AGAIN! I fixed 3 broken hall wires. Put it all together, this time I tightened the nuts ;). Turned the throttle and it worked. Put it all together torque arms and all, turned the bike back over, connected the battery lifted wheel of ground turned throttle, wheel spun, great now time for a spin!
Got up on bike pulled throttle she took me about 15 feet stopped and 5 beeps LMAO I nearly cried with laughter, serious, with all the hassle taking the damn thing apart and putting it together so many times, you would actually think it would work!
OK now it's time to think what I want to do, I have a damn good motor that was handicapped by crap electronics. It could have been good if GM didn't fool people into actually thinking it was a 1000watt motor, For me max 750watts on 48-52 volts! and I'm very annoyed over that more than GM care to know!!! I should have sent it back and got a refund. To say that I wasted $33 on a usb cable that will not program the current as I wanted is an even bigger joke, that and the fact the cable grip of the usb end of the cable is totally useless and the wires pulled out!
I know it's my fault for opening it up and tinkering around with it, but serious, if it was doing what I wanted I would not have opened it at all!
Ok does anyone know if a crystalyte controller will work with the pie? analogue or digital? I love the way some of them have a key switch, the would be very useful! I love the (external) magic controllers ability to adjust the current and regen, but hiding cables is a pain and so is the way they connect to the controller, I prefer the way the cables exit on their old controllers! I think you can adjust the crystalyte controllers with the direct plug in cycle analyst?
I think I will go crazy trying to get GM to send me a new internal controller, and a new cable. I don't think I will bother anyway. So my only way might be to go external. Wiring up phase and hall wires through the axle will be a pain for sure that and matching hall and phase wires! :'(
-
I think this should be a lesson to GM - the SW has GOT to work, and it should work in such a way that the user decides how many amps and what speed limits exist. Clearly, maximums must be set so that people can't overload the controller with too much power. It seems wrong to me that the voltage of your pack is what determines your maximum speed, it should be what you tell the controller you want the max speed to be. After all, 24V should be able to drive the thing very fast if you have no load (IE testing the bike with it lifted in the air.)
Given a set of specifications, I would seriously consider doing the programming for you :) Any chance I can get the API and what maximums have to be enforced?
-
This Pie Aint going to beat me!!!
I'm going to order an external magic controller, new throttle. And while I'm waiting on them it will give me plenty of time to work on running the cables.
I will use cat 5 network cable, and I've got some 12g silicone wire, it's high temperature wire and I've used it for my ping battery before and it's good stuff and very flexible!
I don't want to loose this pie because it has MONSTER torque!!!
I'm going to show this pie who's boss!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Thats the spriit. Dont give up...
May I ask some questions.
So did you replace all fets or just one. Did you use the fet you picked or a different fet? Was it the fet you replaced that blew up or another fet and was it a on the same channel or a different channel.
Which channel did the first fet blow up and what fets are blown up out now. Green blue yellow?
-
Thats the spriit. Dont give up...
May I ask some questions.
So did you replace all fets or just one. Did you use the fet you picked or a different fet? Was it the fet you replaced that blew up or another fet and was it a on the same channel or a different channel.
Which channel did the first fet blow up and what fets are blown up out now. Green blue yellow?
Hi 317537, I don't remember which fet blew the last time. And I haven't opened it up yet to see whats blown now. But it's the same symptoms. 5 beeps strong vibration in wheel!
I replaced all 6 fet's the last time with irfb3207zpbf.
-
I think what went wrong with your fets is the internal diode fused.
The IRFB3207ZPBF body diode pulse max is 640 amps peak.
With your software amps set to max you may have exeeded this from a capacitor discharge that is after the shunt. This is why I think using the lower farad tantalum caps are the go here for spike resistance.
See between that cap after the shunt, fet and motor you will be lucky to get .7 ohm resistance. Do some math here and 50 volts divided by .07 ohms =714 amps current. Maybe explains why you failed to get out the driveway. The software must of been allowing more current through to the fet from that capacitor in spikes in a manner that you can not see on your CA..
Its interesting out of the three fets we compared that the stb140nf75 has the lowest body diode rating out of the three and I am suprised it lasted longer than the IRFB3207ZPBF.
The Fet IRFP2097 has a body diode that can take 800 amps pulse. There was another reason why I picked the IRFP2097 over the other fets for an internal controller is because it is an automotive engineered spec. It was designed to run under high temperatures, like in motors and such. It has a higher dissipation max wattage than the IRFB3207ZPBF and its derating factor allows more reliable operations at 150 degrees...
You use the derating factor to accertain the max watts a package can dissipate.
The STB140nf75 has a max dissipation of 310 watts and derated factor (dr) at 2 watts per Co above 25Co
Say your max temp gets to 150Co
150Co - 25Co =125
125x2DR = @150Co, 250 watts max dissipation before failure.
The IRFB3207ZPBF has a max dissipation of 310 watts and a deraring factor of 2 watts per Co above 25Co
125X2= @150Co, 250 watts max before failure
The IRFP2097 has a max dissipation of 470 watts and derated at 3.1 watts per Co above 25Co
125X3.1= @150Co, 387 watts max before failure..
The IRFP2097 is almost able to perform without any thermal resistances closer to its max ratings at 150 Co than any of the other fets we have mentioned..
-
Further more.
When you shunted to the noise cap with the first mod you at least were providing the noise cap a lot of current so it wasnt draining out.
When you shunted correctly from the main input caps and set the amps to max you were inadvertantly starving the after shunt cap and sucking everything that that 63v 470uf after shunt cap could provide. Lots of noise and big ripples and more than likely exceeding the body diod of the fet with every dip in the DC rail volts drop over the after shunt cap.
Seemingly the layout of the mod makes a difference.
Current can only move in one direction and little was coming from the gm shunt because of your first bypass shunt.
If the resistance of the PCB tracks and GM shunt is more than your first attempt to install the bypass, you were not using the input caps to there full ability.
Meaning you had 50v @ 120-15 amps of noise making switching being filtered by a single cap. The software current limits in this situation may only better implemeted by a proper shunt soldered in the correct path of current.
How one would approach these difficulties would be as follows.
Beef up the tracks from you power pole where your current travels to the caps then to the shunts. Do not try to bypass any of the tracks with wires as you may create too many divisions of the current pathway.
Use a 30 amp rated shunt to the noise filter cap. Set your max amps to 30 amps via the sofware.and continuous to 20~25 amps.
-
I just did a simultion of a buz fet with a .2ohm load.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2691;image)
The 3.3 ohm resistor simulates the 15 amp shunt you had there. And the 63v 470 cap is allowed to charge through the shunt and discharge into the motor.
The ocillocscope channels A is the voltage ripple allowed happen over the positive input of the motor and ground. And thh b channel is ground..
Its important to note in this simulation the current meter showing 13.8 amps exceeded the 15 amp shunt by 10 amps I saw it flickering at just over 25 amps peak. For sure a fet with a low on resistance would do more peak from the cap than a buz fet.
The only thing I see doesnt work in the sim is the 3.3 ohm resistor compared to a shunt. It still leaves a the of question to how the noise difference to the shunt and resistor would make over the 470uf cap.
As I decreased the duty cycle of the timer the current draw came closer to 14 amps and when I raised it the current draw was very spiked at 28 amps.
-
If anything the sim shows how important it is to set you current max via the software to factory spec, or in Scorpion case his shunt was 15 amps.
The fets can create a lot of noise if the max current in the software is set to max and the load is allowed to over demand and out source the pysical GM shunt installed.
If you plan to mod the shunt in the controller like so many have done before set your max amps to match your installed shunt specification.
-
Hi 317537, I have ordered a new usb cable, and this time also the external magic controller, just in case things don't go right. I can give the internal controller one more shot.
Do you think I can leave the shunts as I have them now if I can turn down the amps in the software?
I have 2 spare fet's and maybe the same one is blown again, if so I will replace it.
I think at the end of this experiment we might have learned a lot about this pie!
I got one word of caution to anyone modding their pie, My axel threads are wearing because I've taking the nuts off and put them back on so many times, the nuts that come with the pie are not made of strong metal at all. Fine for opening and closing maybe 5 times, but they are NOT made for tightening so much on an E-bike and the threads are gone long ago and I have being using proper steel nuts. Maybe GM should start shipping proper nuts!
-
Hi 317537, I have ordered a new usb cable, and this time also the external magic controller, just in case things don't go right. I can give the internal controller one more shot.
Do you think I can leave the shunts as I have them now if I can turn down the amps in the software?
I have 2 spare fet's and maybe the same one is blown again, if so I will replace it.
I think at the end of this experiment we might have learned a lot about this pie!
I got one word of caution to anyone modding their pie, My axel threads are wearing because I've taking the nuts off and put them back on so many times, the nuts that come with the pie are not made of strong metal at all. Fine for opening and closing maybe 5 times, but they are NOT made for tightening so much on an E-bike and the threads are gone long ago and I have being using proper steel nuts. Maybe GM should start shipping proper nuts!
I think you should sit the shunt in place of the old shunt and solder up the tracks all round the power pole and caps there, You want a single pathway to your shunt.
Make it shorter than in your pics..
Set the controller to 20 amps cont and 23 amps max and see if you can pull 20 amps reliably, once you achieved this mile stone bump the max up to 30 amps.
I want to know whether its your new fet or old fets. The GM ones may have been damaged in the first failure event. Or the newer fet has damaged the older fets when it failed or the older fets damaged the newer fets when they failed. this is why I would of replaced all fets.
No harm in trying. Honestly you have some hard skin on you and 100 points for trying.
Good luck there matey,
-
Here.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2693;image)
You can remove the PCB varnish above the brown cap and lay some thickish soldered tinned wire down on the PCB from the power pole to the cap and bend it to around meet the shunt and beef it up with solder so it attactched the new wire onto the PCB.
Watch out for the positive terminal of the brown cap there.
Install a proper rated 30 amp shunt and you got it right.
-
The original shunt could of been fine to do more than 15 amps certainly looks better then 15 amps, its hard to tell core width from pics.. But it looks like it wasnt soldered properly in the first place.
Remove the goo glue and investigate.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2695;image)
The bottom right arrow I can see the PBC fibreglass below the tracks. The track could be lose from its board. Maybe!
-
I don't have or know where I could get shunts of any kind in this country! lol honestly it's the hardest place to get anything! The fet's had to be ordered from the U.K!
317537
what about leaving the resistor wires as shunts? and trying the software to limit the amps or remove one of the three?
Also I did replace all 6 fet's. I just replaced the same one that blew last time.
I just want to say that I'm disgusted with the lack of support from GM. I e-mailed Tom, fair enough he replied, but is not interested in sending spare parts by the looks of it. yes I messed up my pie's cable, but at my own expense and I'm not asking for spare parts for free!!!
There should be spares available for the pie on the website!
-
Did you install 3 15 amp shunts.
Here?
The bigger picture tells more.
Your idea leading the fets to caps via the fets is a good one.
Make the shunt as close to the same length.
I can still send you something rated and tested if you want.
-
I don't have or know where I could get shunts of any kind in this country! lol honestly it's the hardest place to get anything! The fet's had to be ordered from the U.K!
317537
what about leaving the resistor wires as shunts? and trying the software to limit the amps or remove one of the three?
Also I did replace all 6 fet's. I just replaced the same one that blew last time.
I just want to say that I'm disgusted with the lack of support from GM. I e-mailed Tom, fair enough he replied, but is not interested in sending spare parts by the looks of it. yes I messed up my pie's cable, but at my own expense and I'm not asking for spare parts for free!!!
There should be spares available for the pie on the website!
Yes I unserstand. You wanted your new hub to perform at least as good the old hub so you tried to make it right. Setting your pie to default 30 amps max with a 15 amp shunt may not of been the best configuration solution anyway.
Maybe just order straight from sales. And ask what you want.
sales@goldenmotor.com
-
Did you install 3 15 amp shunts.
Here?
The bigger picture tells more.
Your idea leading the fets to caps via the shunts is a good one.
Make the shunt as close to the same length.
I can still send you something rated and tested if you want.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2697;image)
Beef up the track where I marked in red with solder.
-
Did you install 3 15 amp shunts.
Here?
The bigger picture tells more.
Your idea leading the fets to caps via the shunts is a good one.
Make the shunt as close to the same length.
I can still send you something rated and tested if you want.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2697;image)
Beef up the track where I marked in red with solder.
yes I removed the original shunt and installed he lead from the resistor, and then the 2 you showed in the picture. I think I'll just wait until I get the cable and turn the amps down and see if it works and if not then I will go external, and hopefully be able to get all the cables through the axle! I'll beef up the track as you suggested now, connect up and see is the wheel spins then wait until I get the cable.
-
Did you install 3 15 amp shunts.
Here?
The bigger picture tells more.
Your idea leading the fets to caps via the shunts is a good one.
Make the shunt as close to the same length.
I can still send you something rated and tested if you want.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2697;image)
Beef up the track where I marked in red with solder.
yes I removed the original shunt and installed he lead from the resistor, and then the 2 you showed in the picture. I think I'll just wait until I get the cable and turn the amps down and see if it works and if not then I will go external, and hopefully be able to get all the cables through the axle! I'll beef up the track as you suggested now, connect up and see is the wheel spins then wait until I get the cable.
Yer this is the mad mod forums here. We crazy. The mod you did before could do 120 amps peak. I see no need to put yourself through any more work.
Just do 30 amps shunt and leave well enough alone, if it works ride it and ride it some more.
I posted the last pic as that could be considered what you would do iwth a shunt mod. not nessarily going to make any difference you know. Maybe to someone who wants more than 15 amps or more than 60 amps say.
-
No go I'm afraid. I have been busy with it. I even managed to get the usb cable working and turned the con and max amps down to 10. I took a guess where the 3 cables went and it worked. It's about the only thing that worked!
Thanks 317537 for all the advice, I really appreciated it. We could have made the pie fly, but I made it die! LMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
All part of the fun I suppose. It would be interesting if someone would connect a cycle analyst to their pies to see on 48-52 volts what amps they are pulling, I would LOVE to know this info, or are GM selling handicapped pies to European buyers. If you are then that is a disgrace!!!
This motor has unbelievable torque when fed with around 30-40+ amps. I would sacrifice some of this torque for more speed!
I think when I get this motor running I will start saving for a BMC v3 motor and controller. I know they are expensive, but they are efficient because of the gears. You get better torque with higher speed.
For most people the pie is a decent quality kit, far from perfect but it will be perfect for most. I just feel hard done by by GM.
Anyway enough said, Now it's time to Re cable the pie, for the external controller and forget about it.
I will post whenever I get it going again.
-
Matey. You woudlnt be the first to blow up a controller board and certainly not the last. Dont hold grudges against GM because out of every honest person with the skin you got posting your experience in mods, there is a dishonest person that screws their kit up and tries to get warranty.
There seems to be a culture here of fault finding on the forums and then asking for returns, you were a little fast in finding your fault and fast to try to fix it.
You and me are the same in this way I cant wait to get the bike out on the road.
You just havent learned about the Pie you have learned a lot about a lot of things about ebiking and it's new culture.
I fried my first controller on the first day when I connected it to my SLA and was looking for a spot to put it on my bike. I then shorted another wire against the positive terminal. The second controller lasted a week when my SLA's were too heavy and bike the stand broke and the bike fell over squished the wires and stupid me switched the controller on to test it.
I rode out without pumping my tire hard enough up and screwed the rim on day one hiting a sharp concrete corner in the grass.
I blew two chargers up day one not GM chargers. Because my battery was a self help design I had to get the polarity right. Yeah it helps to have your multimeter probes in the right holes hey. After the first one went popers, You think I'd learnt from that. I went ahead and blew up the next one the same way, I rang up the seller a little upset. It was another hour before I figuired out where I went wrong. At least they were easy to fix.
These are my failures but I am here to maybe save someone else the grief or even pass on my never say die attitude onto the next poor soul in trouble..
Smile, Its oly an $60 controller, and you have not lost the most of your purchase only a small part. I bet the Pie outlives both of us. Some people in a worse situation than yourself think its the END OF THE WORLD when something fails. They give up and in spirit lose there whole purchase and deem it as a pile of junk. This thread remains a good example of what value remains left in a GM purchase after a failure. So lets end this with sucess, even if you had to buy a new controller.
I think if you had got away with the mod for another day you would of been able to get your max amps down or maybe not. Its hard to go to an awesome party and suffer a boring party the next time..
It was like when I overvolted my hub to 60v, going back to a 36v brushed motor was a big step down. I still have a working GM hub Im just waiting to put a decent pack on it and even a new pie.
Good luck with the new controller and I would get another one as a spare. You know what its like to be off the road and away from everything. I rely on these bikes to feed my family. It cost me $20 in a cab even if I want milk and bread without the ebikes.
-
I'm only annoyed of the fact I bought a 1000w motor and ended up with a 750 watt. And I don't think it's fair!
OK time to move on to the next project! ;D
I tried fitting the cables through the axle lol no go. So I have ordered some thinner 12g cable from England. Of course I can't get anything here so I hope it fits!!!
I just checked my e-mail and I got one from Tom just checking which cable I need, MUhahahahahah you know what I'm thinking? Yes indeed. I asked him to send cable + controller. I will do mod again and this time turn amps down and see if it works. If not then I will put it back to stock and keep it as a spare, and use external controller!
I know I'm crazy but I got to know if the Mod will work by turning it down in the software! I will do the mod this time as with your suggestions 317537, with the resistor wire?
Has anyone noticed that on GM's order page, the option of external controller pie? has anyone got any information on this?
-
I'm only annoyed of the fact I bought a 1000w motor and ended up with a 750 watt. And I don't think it's fair!
OK time to move on to the next project! ;D
I tried fitting the cables through the axle lol no go. So I have ordered some thinner 12g cable from England. Of course I can't get anything here so I hope it fits!!!
I just checked my e-mail and I got one from Tom just checking which cable I need, MUhahahahahah you know what I'm thinking? Yes indeed. I asked him to send cable + controller. I will do mod again and this time turn amps down and see if it works. If not then I will put it back to stock and keep it as a spare, and use external controller!
I know I'm crazy but I got to know if the Mod will work by turning it down in the software! I will do the mod this time as with your suggestions 317537, with the resistor wire?
Has anyone noticed that on GM's order page, the option of external controller pie? has anyone got any information on this?
I just used an old extension cord AC wires, the extension cord was made for power tools. The earth wire in some is a little thicker. I don't know why some need huge cables. The phase cables are fine rated at AC because its PWM.
The MP controller is based on the MC controller you maybe able to replace the MP controller with an Magic Controller.
-
I just used an old extension cord AC wires, the extension cord was made for power tools. The earth wire in some is a little thicker. I don't know why some need huge cables. The phase cables are fine rated at AC because its PWM.
The MP controller is based on the MC controller you maybe able to replace the MP controller with an Magic Controller.
That is interesting, I never thought of using AC mains cable for fear of melting phase wires, surely they couldn't handle 30 amps or more? I hear so many scare stories of melting wires!
The external magic controller is different to the internal controller. some of the components don't allow for the external pcb to be mounted in the pie! And there are a few missing components in the internal. Maybe one reason I noticed a power difference???
-
I just used an old extension cord AC wires, the extension cord was made for power tools. The earth wire in some is a little thicker. I don't know why some need huge cables. The phase cables are fine rated at AC because its PWM.
The MP controller is based on the MC controller you maybe able to replace the MP controller with an Magic Controller.
That is interesting, I never thought of using AC mains cable for fear of melting phase wires, surely they couldn't handle 30 amps or more? I hear so many scare stories of melting wires!
The external magic controller is different to the internal controller. some of the components don't allow for the external pcb to be mounted in the pie! And there are a few missing components in the internal. Maybe one reason I noticed a power difference???
I melted the motor before the ac wires. I have the pics to prove it too.
My wife towed a ton of shopping home one week and the wires were cool as, and the motor needed hosing down it was soooo hot..
Oh edit:
Yes to say that 50hz AC is equal to 50khz in DC is like comparing a truck to a mustang. The AC wall is practically DC compared to BLDC PWM output. So, yes AC ratings are too low.
Yer I think my cables were rated at 10 amps AC at 50hz. They kicking the motor along and never once had warm wires.
I think I did 20,000 hard KMs on the ac wires too.
So where did you hear these stories?
-
I melted the motor before the ac wires. I have the pics to prove it too.
My wife towed a ton of shopping home one week and the wires were cool as, and the motor needed hosing down it was soooo hot..
That is interesting! I remember my old 1kw kit phase wires got fairly warm but not hot after a few miles full throttle. Motor got warm too.
Do you have 110 v AC there or 220? That might make a difference?
-
I melted the motor before the ac wires. I have the pics to prove it too.
My wife towed a ton of shopping home one week and the wires were cool as, and the motor needed hosing down it was soooo hot..
That is interesting! I remember my old 1kw kit phase wires got fairly warm but not hot after a few miles full throttle. Motor got warm too.
Do you have 110 v AC there or 220? That might make a difference?
We have 220 AC.
Was the 1kw kit using 220v rated wires or 120v wires. Its not the same as VXR=I. Voltage rating in wire is calculated by the thickness of each fibre and materials used and current is calculated on how many wires that make the gauge in the cable. Voltage resistance only comes into the math of watts when you consider the length of the wires.
12awg copper wire has a resistance of 0.0055 per meter. Lets run that by ohms law.
V/R=I
50v/0055=9090 amps over a meter of 12awg. Well it aint resistance that is stopping the current.
Now lets do some math on the watts that will create over the wire.
I2XR=Watts
90902X.0055= 454454.55 watts, wow that burning up.
Ohms law doesnt work for awg does it? >>> ¿ ::)
Now lets try 20 amps pure DC which is close enough to 12awg current capability.
202x.005= 2.2 watts over a 1 meter cable. ahhh thats more like it.
Maybe your motor was passing heat up the wires. High voltage over small fibre wire doesnt melt the wires it causes atrophy and the voltage cant go deep enough into the small fibre so it can create arcs along the current pathways. Lack of resistance does not create large voltage drops over the length so watts are not created.
Use a good thick fibre wire for voltage with many wires for current pathway.
I tried some 50v 50 amp DC rated cable for my battery power cable, it was huge, I think 4awg, but the filament was very fine with lots and lots of filaments. No heat at all, just after long use the filament became brittle all along the cable and breaking up inside the insulator and you could see the copper going green, impurities were being arced into the core of the copper wire. If I continued to use this cable the resistance would of became too much and heat would of became the next issue.
It wasnt the motor use aging the wire so soon when riding, it was the damed 60v 3 amp charger. Wow 3 amps wrecking my 4awg wires . NOT! it was the 60v.
To give you an idea of what is happening here I thought of a good model.
Try to fill up a box with big balls through funnel into a pipe facing downward. Weigh how much is able traveling through per second. Then make the balls tiny and allow them to travel through the pipe at the same speed. Which is going to transfer more weight per second? The tiny balls or the large ones.
Current actually requires surface area, well kind of. The more surface area of a conductor the more current is allowed. SO by increasing the amount of filaments in a cable you increase the suface area for current. Thats the best I can explain it. I'm getting tired.
Voltage issues.
Now think of skimming a stone over a lake. If you throw the stone slow it sinks to the bottom without bouncing off the surface. Throw it fast and it bounce many times off the surface disturbing the surface tension all along its path.
So to voltage bounces along the wire. If the voltage is too high, for the want of a better metaphor, it bounces higher and tries to land deeper into the filaments damaging the surface tension of the wire all along.
But with voltage if you can allow it enough width of bonded conductive ionic molecules, it can get its zap into the filament and wont arc.
(http://global-sei.com/president_blog/inb1.jpg)
Above is some high voltage transmission wire, look at the filament core and how thick each one is.
LeZ
-
That was a lot to take in, I'm not sure if I got it, I always thought the thicker the wire the higher the current it can handle?
-
Yessss
But I used very thick 4awg wire and yes the current was spectacular but each of the wires that made up the gauge were tiny almost like hair. The voltage was making a mess of these tiny hair wires.
You know how cables are made up of a bunch smaller wires inside (filament) Current has no problem running along lots of fine wires. Voltage does have problems running along lots of fine wires.
More surface area requires a larger gauge to give better current but this has not much to do with the individual wires that make up a very thick cable...
(http://global-sei.com/president_blog/inb1.jpg)
Like in the picture above if we replaced the individual massive filaments with tiny wires but made the entire cable the same width it would be great in current, much better than the cable in the above picture. But you would lose the "ultra high" voltage rating. In fact it would be usless in high voltage applications.
-
Hey there
Hmm I think if I get the 16" cast wheel going again [need to test it on a bike] I'll be doing some tinkering! ;)
Les - awesome points mate, I think those cables in the pics would be suitable for like 50KV+ though... Now that's what I call a Magic Pie :D
This table I'm posting is good for upto 400VDC [AWG] -->
-
Yessss
But I used very thick 4awg wire and yes the current was spectacular but each of the wires that made up the gauge were tiny almost like hair. The voltage was making a mess of these tiny hair wires.
You know how cables are made up of a bunch smaller wires inside (filament) Current has no problem running along lots of fine wires. Voltage does have problems running along lots of fine wires.
More surface area requires a larger gauge to give better current but this has not much to do with the individual wires that make up a very thick cable...
(http://global-sei.com/president_blog/inb1.jpg)
Like in the picture above if we replaced the individual massive filaments with tiny wires but made the entire cable the same width it would be great in current, much better than the cable in the above picture. But you would lose the "ultra high" voltage rating. In fact it would be usless in high voltage applications.
ok Leslie, I think I got it now, thanks :)
-
Hi again everyone,
Ok I finally got it all back together. I used 12g alphawire here is the link to the manufactures site, I used cat 5 for the hall wires. Just cut the ones I didn't want.
http://www.alphawire.com/Products/Wire/Hook-Up-Wire/EcoWire/6718.aspx
It's got the thinnest insulation I have ever seen! but it works a treat. I wouldn't fit a higher gauge wire in the axle, so it was a perfect fit.
I haven't got the magic controller yet and used an old controller conhismotor sent me when my old regen controller burned out. It's the old silver 15 fet one I think GM used to sell them before? Anyway it supplies about 30 amps max so it's good enough.
Acceleration is good, Hill climbing between 25-30 amps is very good. And once up to speed between 24-27mph it consumes around 750 watts, on flat road compared to my old motor on the same stretch of road consumed around 1100 watts. That's the funny thing @max speed full throttle the old motor consumed 1100 watts even if up to speed, the Pie, once I'm up to speed 750watts, so does that mean the motor is much more efficient? So I know the old controller was limiting amps for sure now!
The pie has a lower top speed but with the extra torque it allows me to keep a higher speed longer, climb hills faster so maybe it's faster in the end!
Does anyone know If I can use the red switch on the throttle as a power switch for the magic controller, or the on off switch on the cruise switch? that would be most useful.
I have a scooter top box for the battery and it has to be mounted near the end of the carrier in order to open the lid and that does not help with weight distribution and probably a lot to do with the front wheel rising with the modded internal controller at 60 amps!
After about 8 miles full throttle the phase wires were totally cold and that's good, on my old motor they got pretty warm! I have no doubt this Pie Motor will take much more power and I would advise people that want more power if using external controller to use 2 torque arms, and make sure the weight of the bike is distributed more even than mine.
Anyway more to the point, I am very happy with the pie's performance even at 1400 watts or so, and the magic controller will give a little more. Well done GM, this is an excellent motor and one to be very proud of! ;)
And thanks Leslie for all the help, I really appreciated it :)
-
Those wires on the throttle are for lights - I think they are much too little to be used as a switch...
Congrats on getting everything working again so soon! YAY! 750 watts, eh? ... What type of battery pack are you using? That's a fair bit of power if you ask me, my 4x 21 AH cells would be dead before riding for an hour at that rate.
-
Those wires on the throttle are for lights - I think they are much too little to be used as a switch...
Congrats on getting everything working again so soon! YAY! 750 watts, eh? ... What type of battery pack are you using? That's a fair bit of power if you ask me, my 4x 21 AH cells would be dead before riding for an hour at that rate.
Hi Magneto,
Thanks. It would be nice to have nice weather instead of wind and rain to test it out more! :'( I'm using a ping 48 volt, really a 52 volt 20 ah battery. I Have seen it deliver a peak of 120 amps, that's before I fried my internal modded controller ;D But It could only manage that for a split second I would imagine. But it's more than capable for supplying peaks of 60 amps for acceleration!!! It did trip on a few occasions. I'm sure it will handle 30 amps continuous no problem! I think I will get close to 25-30
I wanted a 20 amp battery but GM didn't have one + I don't think theirs is LifeP04? I love the way the GM battery attaches to the rack!
When I get the magic controller again I will set it to maybe 30 amps continuous and 40 max limit. I'm sure it will be more than fine then!
Regarding the switch, There is a separate thin wire for a switch, so I think that will be capable of working with a low current switch? Hopefully, I seem to have a habit of burning things LMAO ;D ::)
-
Oh OK on the switch then! LOL! I'd hate for you to run your actual battery power through it ;)
I'd love to do what you are doing with using a nice little switch on the front of the bike for power on/off! What switch is actually being used to cut off the power from the battery pack - just a key? I'm using a silly light-switch from the heardware store rated for 15A max current - I have my Pie set to 15 max to save energy, although I'm a little worried about hill climbing.... We'll see what happens. I'm quite OK with going slow up the hill - as long as I make it! Right now I'm waiting on arrival of some batteries I'm going to try out - some nice 21AH SLA and some 12AH SLA. I got the 12AH's for $20 each, so I'm pretty happy about that and will see if I can manage having 8 of them for 24 total AH! :) I bet it will be too heavy, but I'll give it a shot. The 8x12AH should manage 15A continous for nearly an hour.
-
Oh OK on the switch then! LOL! I'd hate for you to run your actual battery power through it ;)
I'd love to do what you are doing with using a nice little switch on the front of the bike for power on/off! What switch is actually being used to cut off the power from the battery pack - just a key? I'm using a silly light-switch from the heardware store rated for 15A max current - I have my Pie set to 15 max to save energy, although I'm a little worried about hill climbing.... We'll see what happens. I'm quite OK with going slow up the hill - as long as I make it! Right now I'm waiting on arrival of some batteries I'm going to try out - some nice 21AH SLA and some 12AH SLA. I got the 12AH's for $20 each, so I'm pretty happy about that and will see if I can manage having 8 of them for 24 total AH! :) I bet it will be too heavy, but I'll give it a shot. The 8x12AH should manage 15A continous for nearly an hour.
I'm not using a switch at the moment, there is nothing I can find good enough to handle the current! A key switch is a good idea for the controller. As far as I know it doesn't actually switch the battery, only the controller!
What kind of range do you need? SLA are heavy but cheap, and if they do the job, that's good! You would love Lifep04 batteries!!! 15amps maybe the max I would set for SLA batteries. I would imagine they would be weak enough for hills, but if you peddle and use it for assistance It should be more than good enough for that!
-
I was at Canadian Tire the other day, and I considered buying a big breaker - 50 Amp - for my on/off , but I heard some bad news about taking something meant for AC and using it for DC... so I used something cheaper ;D
So you are running quite the bike - fast and powerful! That is SUPER cool! I am jealous man, I can't wait for my batteries to come in to see how fast 48V will get me on my MP. I saw a picture of the ultimate bike in the gallery and I'm going to put my batteries just above the pedals like him - 4 12AH SLAs and then the other 4 will go on the back.
So - you are still waiting for another external controller, or are you going to stick with the one you have connected now?
-Magneto
-
I will probably use the magic controller when I get it because of the cruise option, and the ability to adjust the current. I ordered it from
http://www.devi-motion.com/ Thinking it would not take as long, but is taking longer than if I ordered from GM direct! I'm not impressed.
Anyway Magneto let me know how it goes when you get your batteries.
Mark
-
Holey Mc moley scorpioso those prices are massive!!
Hope you get things sorted soon.... I'm tipping if they didn't have stock they would go through GM or GM manufacturer direct and possibly take longer...
Anywho you must have lots of euros in your pocket :)
cheers
-
Holey Mc moley scorpioso those prices are massive!!
Hope you get things sorted soon.... I'm tipping if they didn't have stock they would go through GM or GM manufacturer direct and possibly take longer...
Anywho you must have lots of euros in your pocket :)
cheers
Prices as in devi_comfort prices or batteries?
Lots of Euro's lol I wish, I happen to be a good saver and I spend a bit on my hobbies, which for now is my bike. Every man needs a hobbie! I wanted a new laptop but the old one still works, it's nearly 5 years old, but really all I do is surf the net so it's good enough for that. So insted I decided to spend some on the bike and I'm happy I did. As it's more fun than getting a new laptop! :)
-
Man you are so much like me! LOL! Just a little more risky maybe... haha. My first name is Mark and I'm an IT manager - I'm due for a new laptop and have been spending my 'hobbie' money on this bike and batteries lately... WEIRD eh? hehe... are you from Canada too?
-
I'm from the south east of Ireland.
I've spent too much on computers in my time, all to have them outdated as soon as I build them LOL. So I kinda don't need the power just for surfing and use ps3 for the odd spot of gaming. And E-biking gets me out, where otherwise I probably wouldn't.
Anyways back to the bike. I went out for a spin, did 21 miles used 11.5 amps, I think that's pretty good, and I'm more than happy at the performance!
Here is a pic at last of the bike. The controller location is temporary, the top box is actually more than big enough, but I can lock it at least.
-
Well done scorpion.
Youre on the road.
For the switch you have a few options.
Relays are cool.
I use a FRA4 relay.
This is the amp chompin volt stompin power switch from hell.
http://www.ficrelay.com.hk/details/FRA4.pdf (http://www.ficrelay.com.hk/details/FRA4.pdf)
(http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_8698.jpg)
Install this baby and rest assured it will never get stuck.
It can switch 30 amps while in use so it is safe in all dangerous situations, if you need to switch your bike off under a massive load? This will do the trick.
You can use a 150 ohm resistor and a LM7812 regulator to feed the coil so you don't get some LVC happening when the pack runs low.
Heavy load up to 7500VA
Panel mount
Heavy duty, switching current up to 30A
High inrush current 65A and high surge voltage 10,000V
Meet with associated requirement for "UL508 industrial control equipment"
Use with air conditioner, electrical heater, remote-controlled TV,
automatic control and household electric device
On the cheap I used one of these for a while.
(http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_4430.jpg)
The switch is rated at 15 amps if youre using it for AC but you use two poles together for a single DC switch it will do 30 amps. Once one of these got stuck but I think it was to do with me short circuiting the switch and it fused. I just pushed it a little and it became unstuck and settled in for a good 6mths before I upgraded to the FRA4.
-
Hi Leslie,
Thanks for that tip. I never actually used a relay, Can you tell me please do I need separate power for the relay? Could you show me a diagram of how I might connect it up please?. Would be most helpful. Thanks
Mark
-
Here is a cute circuit.
I am going to do up a precharge delay into it latter..
I will test this out today and give it the thumbs up.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2867;image)
-
Hi Leslie,
Looks a little complicated for me? Why do you use a voltage regulator?
-
Hi Leslie,
Looks a little complicated for me? Why do you use a voltage regulator?
The regulator is not working as a voltage regulator. Its a current follower set at 50ma. This requires only one resistor and is less complicated..
How this works is
Vref/I=R
Vref is the reference voltage set in the IC, I (current) is what you want the the IC to output. R is the answer to what resistor you use to tie between output pin and adj to get you constant I current..
As the load is subjected over R the voltage drops to adj dropping the voltage to the output causing a constant current despite the input voltage, input current and resistive load.
So vref for the lm317t = 1.25v
1.25v/.05a = 25 ohm.
We use a 25 ohm resistor between the adj and output and draw our current from the resistor output and adj.
The relay has 7 different types not spelled out very well in the data sheet. So the coil rating part can be confusing.
24v 480ohm 50ma is what the circuit was designed for.
I have a 12v coil.
The better relay for the 48v pack is the 24v rated coil. So the circuit I made works if you can get the 24v coil relay.
The coil will draw 104ma at 50v, too much, so we put the lm317t in current follow config not voltage regulation config, in there to stop the 100ma.
By resisting half the current we resist halve the voltage to the coil as well.
Let me introduce you to ohms law.
(http://www.cmhsoftware.com/Ohmslaw.jpg)
E= Volts
I= Current amps
R= Resistance
W= Watts.
Some math.
v/r=I
24v/480ohm=0.05 amps OK!
^^^This is fine for the relay
50v/480 ohm= 0.104 amps, Ouch!
^^^This will blow the relay.
See as the pack discharges the current decreases to the relay coil. What ends up happening if you set the coil good to work at 50v at 40v its starved and shuts down. If you set the coil to work good at 24v when the pack is full the current to the coil is too much and it burns it out.
Normally the 48v pack sits at 50v max when resting full charged. But we need 24v for our coil switch.
We can rely upon the coil resistance to distance the circuit load so the regulator only has to resist 50ma down from the 100ma at 26v drop.
More math.
26v*.05 amps= 1.3 watts. That's pretty good.
The beauty of the current follower regulator; in this circuit, no matter what the voltage is, as long as its above 24v, it will give 24v @ 50ma from 60v, all the way down to 24v. It doesnt matter what voltage the said device needs. Say you had one lamp to run at 10v at 1amp with a 30v input. With a current mode reg you could run a 20v lamp at 1 amp on the same circuit. Voltage doesn't matter no more, great hey!. Oh and I almost forgot, this little IC in current follow mode can take the inrush that those controller caps can cause and whip it tame. This is not good for inrush with a regulator in voltage reg mode. The LM317t has a max current of 1.5 amps As you know large caps can demand more peak current than you require when charging from 0v, 0v is seen as a short circuit until they get some energy into them. This can overload the IC in voltage regulation mode as soon as you switch her on.. Current reg mode is sweeeet for a precharging the controller or creating resistance to charging caps over the coil terminals to delay the relay switch, if you want to take it thus far..
The LM317t has a voltage rating of 37v drop from the input to the output, any more and its toast. every thing is checking out by the math. 26v drop from 50v and 36v drop from 60v.
Everything seems to be working to plan in the circuit. Looks like I nailed it to the floor.
Unfortunately I have a 12v coil, this sucks seriously as I have to bump down to 12v at 100ma, this is much more of a challenge. I can still test the math to the above with my relay.
I will show you some pics because I pull my power box out tomorrow to try install a switcher reg . I have a precharge delay on the FRA4 and I run the whole controller logic through the lm317t and LM338 regulators.
I switch on, a little bit of current charges the controller caps then whack the relay kicks in. Zero arc switching.... :D
-
Sounds complicated. It's a pity we can't just use a good old switch lol. On that note however, the magic controller has the facility for a switch, so Maybe I could get away with a lower current key switch or something? That would still leave the cycle analyst powered on though!
-
Hi Scorpioso
I bought one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188 (http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188)
It also comes in 5v / 12v flavours too. I use mine for a heap of different electronics.
And also this to remote switch on the bike + act as a kill switch. Similar to Les' gear
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
Gotta love ebay lol
Anyways you can easily rig up a simple switch or key switch for the relay
-
Sounds complicated. It's a pity we can't just use a good old switch lol. On that note however, the magic controller has the facility for a switch, so Maybe I could get away with a lower current key switch or something? That would still leave the cycle analyst powered on though!
(http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_4430.jpg)
Try it.
This is called a double throw double pole switch. DPDT
Put the red battery lead onto both middle terminals (poles) and the red controller lead onto both terminals to one side of the switch (throw).
You can connect the battery charger + wire to the other side of the switch (throw), it only needs to use one for charger current
Solder the black battery wire straight to both the controller and to a the battery charger - plug.
When you switch off the switch connects the battery to the charger plug, when you switch on it disconnects the battery from the charger plug and switches the battery to the controller... This way you cant charge and have the controller on at the same time.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/switch-1.jpg?t=1279490817)
-
About time I cleaned up and update some of my old pictures.
Does this diagram suit your needs?
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2871;image)
-
Hi Scorpioso
I bought one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188 (http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Converter-60W-48V-Triple-out-3-3V-12V-12V-/370390229384?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cfa6188)
It also comes in 5v / 12v flavours too. I use mine for a heap of different electronics.
And also this to remote switch on the bike + act as a kill switch. Similar to Les' gear
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370398338010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
Gotta love ebay lol
Anyways you can easily rig up a simple switch or key switch for the relay
I do enjoy all that stuff I do, but sometimes I would like to save some time. Asian Engineer is my fave ebay electronics dealer. That is a big amp relay you got there. My one is good for the job though.
I might opt for your design Monkey.. ;)
-
This looks ok!
http://cgi.ebay.com/50-150-LCD-Temperature-Meter-12V-Probe-Waterproof-/250662888686?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5cac24ee
(http://www.engineershop.net/LCDbiao/LCDtemp1.jpg)
Type:LCD
Measure range:temperature -50??150?
Working power:AC/DC 8.5V-12V
Accuracy:+/-0.1?
Probe:Waterproof Cable length: 1m
Size: 79 mm x 43 mm x 24 mm
Be good for those who like to push their bikes to the max.
-
Thanks guys for all the info, I might go with the big switch option first and see how it goes. :)
-
Hi Leslie,
Would you mind please, if I asked you to post a diagram of your relay circuit with pre charge?
I would like to see pictures too if possible.
Thanks
Mark
-
I provide some pics but the next design is worth doing a pic up for.
Heres is the one that I can still use and its good for 84v hot. It does a little more than just switch the bike on. One regs goes to a separate part in my controller and allows me to use it any volts from 12, to 84v, Ive tested it at 48v to 60v.
Forgive the dusty look as its done some hard KM's.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2883;image)
This one is based on a voltage regulator not current regulator. It works good, and I can run a 60v to 3.2v~12.8v DC to DC converter switcher off it at 60v. Ive used it for switcher around 300 ma amp for 750ma led lamps.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2885;image)
-
yes Leslie that looks good indeed, You sure are a wizard at electronics. :)
I tried using a switch on the magic controller, between the thin red wire and the bigger one marked power. But it did nothing. The motor still turns. The only thing I noticed was all the lights went out on the throttle power meter, except the low battery one. Strange. And useless function as I could not even get the alarm function to work.
-
Hi Leslie.
What do you think about these guys for switching?
http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=2002064
The price is steep, but I've seen them for a few euros on e-bay
-
Scorpion
While the witch will be great short term,
but the problem with electronic relays
is that they have a low off state current.
That means that you will eventually run the
battery down when not in use.
-
Scorpion
While the witch will be great short term,
but the problem with electronic relays
is that they have a low off state current.
That means that you will eventually run the
battery down when not in use.
HI e-lmer
Don't solid state relays need an energising voltage like a mechanical relay? and if the energising voltage is off, won't the relay be off and not drawing any current?
-
Don't solid state relays need an energising voltage like a mechanical relay? and if the energising voltage is off, won't the relay be off and not drawing any current?
Elmer is correct, if you look at the specifications for that relay, it gives an Off State Leakage Current of 30mA. Although 30mA may seem rather low, it's enough to completely drain a fully charged 12Ah pack in under 17 days! :o
12Ah/0.03A = 400hours = 16.67 Days
Alan
-
Don't solid state relays need an energising voltage like a mechanical relay? and if the energising voltage is off, won't the relay be off and not drawing any current?
Elmer is correct, if you look at the specifications for that relay, it gives an Off State Leakage Current of 30mA. Although 30mA may seem rather low, it's enough to completely drain a fully charged 12Ah pack in under 17 days! :o
12Ah/0.03A = 400hours = 16.67 Days
Alan
That last thing I posted is rather large and humbly was the best I could do. and didnt need a forward current to stay close so it wasted nothing when off and or charging.
I want to get rid of one stage and replace it with the simple switchmode LM2576 it has delay switch capabilities with a cap on the no.5 pin` on off. This should make it more efficient.
There are a few problems constant voltage switchmode need to overcome when dealing with larger variable voltage inputs, like our ebike packs looses plenty of voltage when we ride. and charge high to recharge. Mainly with the outout leg of the switcher and the buck overall resistance of the inductor. It can get hot on the drain pin or the buck can starve from low voltage impeding the current flow to the devices.
So I will include a linear voltage regulator at the input to pad the voltage input to a reasonable level. I have a 1500uh toroid inductor I hand wound from .5mm copper magnetwire so it should be good to 55v pulse. I want 13v 900ma fro the switcher to run 6 watts 12v auto of led lights too. Running the current regulator can not be an option.
Im going to try run my HBS36 500 watt at 72v and if all goes well I'll will think it worth a video. I don't know this thing does about 53kph at 60v
Im using an ecrazyman sensorless controller with 100v fets. It has facility for 40 amps continuous but my HBS didn't respond to kindly to the sensorless requirement for my controller so I limited to 20 amps. The bike could still do 53kph but it lost a little guts. Some further mod to the throttle lost a little more top speed but gained a good hit of efficiency.
What resulted in a bike that performed like 36v bike on hills and almost a 60v bike on the flats, no bad heat at all or risk of overheating that wouldnt cost me my range.
More Pics latter. I may get my old HBS running at 72v yet.
-
Don't solid state relays need an energising voltage like a mechanical relay? and if the energising voltage is off, won't the relay be off and not drawing any current?
Elmer is correct, if you look at the specifications for that relay, it gives an Off State Leakage Current of 30mA. Although 30mA may seem rather low, it's enough to completely drain a fully charged 12Ah pack in under 17 days! :o
12Ah/0.03A = 400hours = 16.67 Days
Alan
Hi Alan,
Yes I understand now, Maybe I shouldn't read when I'm tired. :)
I was thinking of disconnecting the battery when not in use, so that wouldn't be a problem as I have to take my battery inside to charge anyway.
I think Les has the ultimate solution indeed and It's nice and simple. I just thought the solid state relay would be better at handling higher currents than a mechanical relay. The highest I seem to find is 30 amps, where as solid state relays can take much higher currents. Ad I have seen my bike push more than 40 amps, though of course that's peak!
One other thing I believe the solid state relays can get hot and need a heatsink? and if that's true, that must mean they waste a lot of energy? or would a few watts mean much when riding anyway as the bike itself can use much more watts anyway!
It just baffles me anyway as to why (some) controller manufacturers don't include an on off switch. It would make things much easier. Really all I want is to switch on and off with a key switch when I'm out and about
-
Check this out
http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6995490
What about this for a relay???
Look at the price :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Pity it's way too expensive!
-
That relay is a bit large for the Job.
The relay Monkey posted was fine. The DC to DC converter is fine for a relay coil and efficient. This the easy way and I have to say its worth the little extra.
It takes me ages to get these circuits to operate perfectly, it not just electrically they need to take the bumps and weather too. If for some reason they do not work you risk damaging your gear..
The bigger the relay often the bigger the current needed for switching and the coil if it is 12v a DC to DC converter will do the job. Linear regs will not convert the voltage into current . SO if you need 100ma at 50v you need to burn 3.8 watts to get 12v left over. It all adds up.
Where as a DC to DC converter may use only 30ma to power a 100ma device.
I need 80ma to run controller logic and 100ma for the relay switch and around 300ma to run my led lamps 380ma in total if I do it linearly I will need to burn 14.44 watts. If I can bump the voltage down linearly to 50v on a 60v pack, at most not on the charger 4.9 watts.
This is why going for a really big relay isn't always the best idea, they can take too much power away. That one reads about 375ma at 80 amps, now I aint sure if it means the 80 amp relay switch is so mofo it needs 180ma to switch it or it needs 180ma to switch a connected 80 amp constant current off from the input contact. Your guess is as good as mine. But the one I suggested only uses 50ma at the 24v coil. It would make a huge difference if you forget to turn the bike off after a ride on day.
If you can get a switch mode DC to DC converter to do the work you will save more watts.
I'll check Monkeys suggested relay out and see what it uses.
Edit
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-PCS-12V-coil-polarized-latching-relays-60A-250V-AC_W0QQitemZ250668406152QQcategoryZ36328QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26pmod%3D370398338010%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6887377582374753659 (http://cgi.ebay.com/2-PCS-12V-coil-polarized-latching-relays-60A-250V-AC_W0QQitemZ250668406152QQcategoryZ36328QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26pmod%3D370398338010%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6887377582374753659)
Yeah I think Monkeys relay uses 12v 140ma compared to my 12v 100ma with his switchmode doing the work its better than my linear reg solution but with my switcher its about the same but much easier to install. And I think he's relay latches which means it could stay on but can save power once it is on.
The non latching type only requires a pulse of power to switch on and off which he plans to use an RF key device from my understanding.
-
http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6995490
What about this for a relay???
Pity it's way too expensive!
Why not build your own high current relay using four of these cheap automotive relays (http://cgi.ebay.com/160364348442):
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/48V120ARelay.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/48V120ARelay.JPG)
Just join the coils in series and the contacts in parallel.
You just can't beat cheap and simple! ;)
Alan
-
Why not build your own high current relay using four of these cheap automotive relays (http://cgi.ebay.com/160364348442):
Just join the coils in series and the contacts in parallel.
Alan
30 amps. ??? ???
Current rating only work in parallel and even then it isn't to good to do if you need the current. There is no real resistive qualities of the contacts to regulate the current through both switches.
Remember it is rare that we will switch on to a ready 20 amp load its only 80ma until you throttle.
But you may need to switch it off from a full load. Any individual parallel relay must be within specs.
The series relay one coil could LVC.
The three relays could be easy replaced by a 300 ohm 5 watt resistor. But this may still LVC.
-
The series relay one coil could LVC.
If you use four idendical relays there should be no problem, as the voltage drop across each winding will be virtually the same.
The relay I chose actually has a rating of 40Amps continuous on the normally open contacts and 30Amps on the normally closed ones.
So in theory, it should be able to supply 160 amps of continuous current without any problem. ;D
Alan
-
The series relay one coil could LVC.
If you use four idendical relays there should be no problem, as the voltage drop across each winding will be virtually the same.
The relay I chose actually has a rating of 40Amps continuous on the normally open contacts and 30Amps on the normally closed ones.
So in theory, it should be able to supply 160 amps of continuous current without any problem. ;D
Alan
Hi Alan,
Would the voltage variations using LiFeP04 hot off the charger and using full throttle not effect the relays?
Mark
-
A single relay would normally be working at ~14.5V when used on a car with the engine running (14.5V = regulated charging voltage), so that equates to 58V for four relay windings in series, your battery will probably be around 55V maximum when fully charged, so your battery voltage will be fine.
As far as the lower end of the operating range is concerned, the LVC on your BMS will cut out well before the voltage would be low low enough for the relays to switch off on their own.
Alan
-
A single relay would normally be working at ~14.5V when used on a car with the engine running (14.5V = regulated charging voltage), so that equates to 58V for four relay windings in series, your battery will probably be around 55V maximum when fully charged, so your battery voltage will be fine.
As far as the lower end of the operating range is concerned, the LVC on your BMS will cut out well before the voltage would be low low enough for the relays to switch off on their own.
Alan
Why buy four relays and call it cheap when you can use a 50c resistor or even better a $1 regulator? The Relays you pick are well within the capabilities we need for ebikes by them selves alone..
The 48v pack has 13 cells that discharge to 2.6v each don't they? Well thats 33.8v Can you be sure that the relay will be reliable at 8.5v each, is the divide going to be perfect? Eg each relays has a 8.5v spot on Voltage drop. Meaning all relays have a 10% resistance tolerance and that adds up to a possible 40% in series or 30% to any one relay.
30% tolerance on 33v is 11v So the voltages may reach as low as 1v over any single coil, being parallel it will only disable one or two relays in the series at low volts.. This is still not in spec if you need 120 amps IMO.
I do know relays have a lower dropout voltage than their uptake, but the bumps on a road can make a difference to relay coils sitting on the edge of switching off.
These things are clear. Four 30 amp relays in parallel is not needed. 120 amp is not needed. Four series relay coils are not needed to regulate voltage.
Can you tell me how this is cheap?
I tell you Monkey Magic suggestion was the best and cheapest for most peoples needs. It can be modded with a precharge in it too. It uses no power to keep it latched and none to keep it unlatch.
-
Does anyone else here believe that controllers should have the facility to be turned on and off via a switch?
It would make life easier!
I have yet to figure out what the thin wire does on the magic controller. When used with a switch, all it does is turn off the lights bar one on the battery meter on the throttle! The motor works in any switch position!
Mark
-
This is my setup.
It all still works fine. I just want to avoid putting SLA's on it again. Its been pretty harsh on the whole bike with the added weight but this is a muscle frame, fork and neck set hard tail MBT.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2899;image)
I use the 72v 40 amp sensorless ecrazyman controller as I was getting tired of hall sensors and just wanted something to take me from A to B. As it tuned out with a little playing around I had 100% successful take offs.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2901;image)
I did notice the loss of torque on the take offs whi8ch seemed to be better when moving up to 60v, I would imagine that with 72v and a better hub than the HBS36 500 watt this controller would do better. So for 48v
It uses the IRFB4310 fet.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2903;image)
-
Does anyone else here believe that controllers should have the facility to be turned on and off via a switch?
It would make life easier!
I have yet to figure out what the thin wire does on the magic controller. When used with a switch, all it does is turn off the lights bar one on the battery meter on the throttle! The motor works in any switch position!
Mark
Doesnt the key switch on the GM battery turn off the controller? Other than that yes, its good to have a main switch, even an emergency cut off switch. This can be wired off your brake switch as this is adequate to implement motor cutoff in emergencies, it not always appropriate to have to hold the brake switch closed for long than you need if your motor is stuck in full. But this isnt full off to the controller.
The precharge is to avoid the longish arc the higher DC voltages incur on the contacts of any switch. Usually the faster switches last longer but the precharge circuit insures your relay will live a long life.
-
Can you tell me how this is cheap?
Leslie, if you know of any other comparable cheap, high current relays suitable for straightforward use with a 48Volt battery, then perhaps you would be kind enough to post the details.
I suggested this D.I.Y. relay option because in my opinion it is a simple (and relatively cheap) solution for a 48V relay capable of switching high current, which is what Scorpion appeared to be searching for.
Let's compare it to the other options that were being considered or suggested:
- The 80Amp Panasonic Relay that Scorpion was looking at = €220.66
- MonkeyMagic's 60Amp Latching relay and DC-DC converter ~$36.40
- My suggested D.I.Y. 160Amp relay (4 x 12V 40Amp relays) ~$13.00
Looking at those prices, I consider it to be the cheapest option out of the three.
I wouldn't even consider the 80Amp Panasonic relay, because I'm still waiting to win the jackpot on the National Lottery! ;D
The main advantage with the 60Amp latching relay is that it does not consume any power once it has been switched on or off, but unfortunately it does still have some disadvantages:
- It's designed to be mounted on a PCB and is therefore equipped with small fragile pins which the three coil wires must be attached to, making it less robust for bike use (and abuse.)
- As far as I am aware, the latching relay cannot be operated easily using a standard key switch, because it requires a momentary pulse to be supplied to each of the two coils, one to switch it on and the other to switch it off again. So presumably you would need a separate spring centred on/off/on toggle/rocker switch in addition to a standard key switch.
(Please correct me if I've got this wrong.)
- If the battery is disconnected with the relay in the on position, whatever precharge system you employ will not work when the battery is reconnected, because the relay contacts will already be 100% closed.
If there was a perfect, cost effective switch solution that suited everyone, then perhaps we would all be using it! ;)
Alan
-
As an aside, the high current relays are rated for breaking
current, not continuous current.
There are many automotive relays that can carry a high
current, but cannot interrupt it without arcing and destroying
the relay. Since we are interested in turning the battery off
when not in use, you could use something like this:
http://documents.tycoelectronics.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=V23130-X0000-A001&DocType=DS&DocLang=EN
(you would need to get 12V to turn on the relay tho.)
-
As an aside, the high current relays are rated for breaking
current, not continuous current.
There are many automotive relays that can carry a high
current, but cannot interrupt it without arcing and destroying
the relay. Since we are interested in turning the battery off
when not in use, you could use something like this:
http://documents.tycoelectronics.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=V23130-X0000-A001&DocType=DS&DocLang=EN
(you would need to get 12V to turn on the relay tho.)
Ohhhh ahhhh thats a interesting perspective on the subject. Something designed to break during any high load.
I hope my FRA4 can break the continuous current, it is designed to do aircons and high powered stuff at high voltages hey ;). Can handle 7500 watts peak. Its sure to be enough.
Like that AC switch I used got stuck in very shortish a short circuit. I could at least manipulate the rocker (forced) so it switched back off and still used it for 6mths afterward. You don't have that ability with relays, they get stuck you chuck them. If you can get them unstuck you should still chuck them. Like I should of got rid my AC switch.
The AC switch is an easy noobe solution that was adequate for me for a while. Well we all start somewhere. ::)
-
I wonder if one could make an arc breaker bypass. ??? ??? ??? Stay tuned for more whack circuits. ;D
-
Hi Guys,
I got the magic controller and connected it up. Hooked it up to laptop and changed the voltage to 48v. 30 amp continuous 50 max.
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
On my old motor all I needed was 20 amps because that's all the motor and battery could take, and I don't know if it could supply more. I'm seriously, unbelievably mad with GM. I have tested and tested wiring etc, throttle, to make sure everything was okay. It was working perfect with the old silver non cruise, non regen controller, (22amps continuous, 30 max) I can't afford now to spend any more on ebike kit, that's it for me now, until I save up again.
Tom never replied to me when I asked him for the pie wiring harness and internal controller (of course I don't need or want that now) but it just goes to show if you have a problem with GM products, they don't care. And I find that totally unacceptable. I bet if I ask to return the controller for a refund, that they will completely ignore me.
The only think I can think of now is opening up the controller and doing some sort of shunt mod, and risk killing the controller.
-
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
Am I supposed to get worried now?
There would be much easier to do a good looking installation with the internal controller. Despite that I ordered the MP with the external controller just to get more power out of it.
Can I trust the equipment or am I forced to buy a Cycle Analyst just to be sure I got what I ordered?
Peter
-
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
Am I supposed to get worried now?
There would be much easier to do a good looking installation with the internal controller. Despite that I ordered the MP with the external controller just to get more power out of it.
Can I trust the equipment or am I forced to buy a Cycle Analyst just to be sure I got what I ordered?
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes I would get a cycle analyst. I did a shunt mod as per leslie's recommendation, using the resister wire. With the usb cable, I then turned the continuous amps down to 10 and the max down to 20 and that gives me 35 amps max on acceleration, and that's just enough. Once the pie is up to speed the power drops off to around 7-800 watts on the level, which helps increase range.
I just soldered a new shunt directly across the existing one, and beefed up the solder on the tracks, as there was not a lot there to begin with. I never remember to take pics! Just remember to place the controller in a place that it will get enough air circulation.
I am so disappointed with Golden Motor, I really can't believe they would advertise their controllers as 30 amps continuous and 50 max, it's such a bad way to treat customers willing to buy their products. And another thing, I have seen them put the controller in one of those water resistant black boxes, I can imagine the controller would roast. They should have a cutout in the box so the heatsink will get air! I wish they would use the old style case for their controllers again as they were much easier to mount!
I have no Idea peter what to tell you other than hook it all up, get a cycle analyst and go from there.
-
Hi Mark
I’m not sure I want to spend an additional $150 on something that tells me there’s a problem I can’t do anything to correct. I haven’t found a good translation for the “shunt” so I’m not really sure what that means.
All my orders from different places such as the rim, the bike and a few other things have arrived. I’ll just have to wait for all equipment to arrive before I make any decisions.
Peter
-
Hi Mark
I’m not sure I want to spend an additional $150 on something that tells me there’s a problem I can’t do anything to correct. I haven’t found a good translation for the “shunt” so I’m not really sure what that means.
All my orders from different places such as the rim, the bike and a few other things have arrived. I’ll just have to wait for all equipment to arrive before I make any decisions.
Peter
Hi Peter,
The shunt is of a specific resistance,(looks like a wire link) and is measured to allow a certain amount of current, by adding solder to it or adding a new one, you change the resistance, which allows more current to pass. Now I'm by no means an expert, so one of the other guys, Alan or Leslie will be better able to explain.
I know what you mean by not wanting to spend more on a cycle analyst, but in my opinion it's money well spent, It shows you exactly the amount of amps taken from your battery, then you know the amount left. It will show you speed distance, and of course your current amps consumption.
I know my old internal controller is different inside. There was 2 shunts, now only 1. I don't know if my old one could supply 30+ amps as I only had it set for 20 max, that's all my motor and battery could take. I do find it very sneaky that Golden Motor would sell their controller that will only supply just over half the rated current, it is not a way to improve their reputation. In my opinion it will only harm it. Now maybe the loyal GM customers will criticise me for moaning all the time, but I'm a customer and I have a right to complain when I have damn good reason and I will not tolerate anyone who says otherwise! Also their lack of customer service and response I can only describe as a total disgrace!
Anyway Peter I hope it works out for you, defiantly get a cycle analyst. I'm dying to know how your set up works . I know that with the right amount of current this motor is amazing!
Mark
-
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
Am I supposed to get worried now?
There would be much easier to do a good looking installation with the internal controller. Despite that I ordered the MP with the external controller just to get more power out of it.
Can I trust the equipment or am I forced to buy a Cycle Analyst just to be sure I got what I ordered?
Peter
Hi Peter
No don't get worried.
Do you like the way your bike performs with its current settings?
If you like the MP the way it is served then please just leave it as it is.. You may have problems.
The shunt is a a current limiter that looks like a single or more solid piece/s of wire in the controller, usually rated now so the user makes no mistakes in the software.
The more advanced user who dares takes or give advice of these threads and chooses to modify their controller in such ways will know how to properly bypass it to provide more current to the controller and motor like Scorpion has.
I chose to limit current shunt as the heavy loads I can haul do cause concern with motor heat. Others that want good response and do not carry such big load may want to improve their bikes performance as their continuos current draw last for shorter periods and this can translate to great acceleration.
When I go up a hill with a heavy load I do not mind my bike slowing down as I know through a shunt my motor will not overheat.
It just so happened that Scorpions first MP controller seemed a little anemic. And now his second controller has a 20 amp shunt in it.
Scorpion I am relieved you are up and running. Please take the time to enjoy the new found power in you GM motor.
The specs are a little off from advertised I will admit but not uncommon amongst a few versions of GM controllers My old GM controllers are all 20 amp shunted..
Strange you have to set the continuous to 10 amps. How many shunts you put across there scorpion?.
Did you start off low with the software and increase to obtain that value?
-
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
Am I supposed to get worried now?
There would be much easier to do a good looking installation with the internal controller. Despite that I ordered the MP with the external controller just to get more power out of it.
Can I trust the equipment or am I forced to buy a Cycle Analyst just to be sure I got what I ordered?
Peter
No don't get worried.
Do you like the way your bike performs with its current settings?
If you like the MP the way it is served then please just leave it as it is.. You may have problems.
The shunt is usually put in there so the user makes no mistakes in the software. It just so happened that Scorpions first MP controller seemed a little anemic. And now his second controller has a 20 amp shunt in it.
The specs are a little off from advertised I will admit but not uncommon amongst a few versions of GM controllers My old GM controllers are all 20 amp shunted..
Strange you have to set the continuous to 10 amps. How many shunts you put across there scorpion?.
Did you start low with the software and increase to obtain that value.
Hi Leslie.
I only put in one this time. Yes I started low and worked my way up a little each time.
Yes peter Leslie is right if you are happy leave it alone.
10 amps makes a hell of a difference, and is not as advertised. If GM want to sell their magic controller as a 20 amp controller, fine by me. Then sell it as a 20 amp! These controllers are calculated to give a very precise current, so they know well they are only 20 amps.
I wonder if I had to have the cable with the internal controller, would It still be working?
-
Went for a spin, 15 amps on take off, and 20 MAX up hill? WTF???
Am I supposed to get worried now?
There would be much easier to do a good looking installation with the internal controller. Despite that I ordered the MP with the external controller just to get more power out of it.
Can I trust the equipment or am I forced to buy a Cycle Analyst just to be sure I got what I ordered?
Peter
No don't get worried.
Do you like the way your bike performs with its current settings?
If you like the MP the way it is served then please just leave it as it is.. You may have problems.
The shunt is usually put in there so the user makes no mistakes in the software. It just so happened that Scorpions first MP controller seemed a little anemic. And now his second controller has a 20 amp shunt in it.
The specs are a little off from advertised I will admit but not uncommon amongst a few versions of GM controllers My old GM controllers are all 20 amp shunted..
Strange you have to set the continuous to 10 amps. How many shunts you put across there scorpion?.
Did you start low with the software and increase to obtain that value.
Hi Leslie.
I only put in one this time. Yes I started low and worked my way up a little each time.
Yes peter Leslie is right if you are happy leave it alone.
10 amps makes a hell of a difference, and is not as advertised. If GM want to sell their magic controller as a 20 amp controller, fine by me. Then sell it as a 20 amp! These controllers are calculated to give a very precise current, so they know well they are only 20 amps.
I wonder if I had to have the cable with the internal controller, would It still be working?
I think to some degree GM want to keep the controllers to the motor rated spec and thats 1000 watts. If users want to exceed that limitation then they have to void warranty by modding the controller. Thats the mod side of the ebike culture I think GM are trying to allow with these mod threads.
We cant have people plugging 50v X 50 amps @ 2500 watts into their Pies and then say, "HEY" it said 50 amps on the site" and moaning a day latter why is my motor smell like bio hazard toxic smokin waste without at least one void warranty mod put in the way to slow people down and get to know what to do first.
You kniow there is a little math involved Scorpion before people should just go nuts setting the software. The controller could prolly do a little bit more than 50 amps you know ;).
The shunt is a red light. These forums mod threads are the green light. Shhh don't tell every one just yet! :-X
-
I guess what I am trying to communicate to the people who want to exceed the motors 1000 watt rating by doing this mod. Is that there is a good learning curb to be undertaken before you move ahead.
The motor is Golden, which is what cost the most to repair or replace, the controllers are cheaper, granted that the internal controllers are harder to mod.
The damage done to a motor set to 2500 watts motor is irreparable and the worst thing that could happen to a new customers kit. Being limited to 20 amps internally will be a good thing if all you need to do is solder a little wire across a PCB to undo.
It may not be advertised exactly as it appears on the net but we here know there is a little more to modding a 50vX20 amps = 1000 watt "kit" than playing with the software.
-
I don’t have all the things for my project yet. As soon as the MP comes I’m going to replace the rim. I was hoping that the spokes could be reused, but after I have measured the new rim I doubt that the ERD diameter is close to the MP’s. Therefore I’m going to order new spokes when I can measure their length. There’s a lot of work to be done before I can enjoy a ride, hopefully before the cold and rainy autumn or even worse, the winter.
I don’t mind either if the bike is slowing down uphill, but how can I let go of the thought that it could have a better acceleration let’s say from 25A?
On the other hand I have no guaranties that the tire “or myself” can take more power than what I get from 20A. I just have to wait and see.
I haven’t assembled anything yet, still it’s a big hole in my wallet. This project is much more expensive than my first plan.
Peter
-
Thank you Leslie for the explanation of the shunt. I thought the shunt was something Mark was putting in, instead it was something he bypassed.
Peter
-
Thank you Leslie for the explanation of the shunt. I thought the shunt was something Mark was putting in, instead it was something he bypassed.
Peter
Both. He put in a bypass. Another term for shunt. LOL
Reading scorpions posts they are full of emotion excitement and interesting statistics.
To Mark.
Scorpion you should not be so fast to judge GM. With this controller anyway.
Again!
Thank you for sharing.
Maybe judge yourself. I actually think you're doing a very great job again, You have successfully modded the controller and as it seems purely using the software to do so.
Please don't push it. And you have set some standards here by moving up the current from low to high..
The data you're proving with the CA is incredible. Answers so much but so many more questions arise. Stay on track.
It may seem my multimeter was out when I tested those resistor leads. Unless the software current limitation is out or the CA is not correct, the shunt and mod you have done is flooding the area with nice thick flow of AMPS.
If this is the case kudos, even though your mod maybe again too robust the software is keeping the current flow in check. The Shunt is proving very low resistances and you will gain efficiency, this looks good on the flats when current isnt being restricted to the input filter caps by the shunts.
The lower load high RPM times will have higher energy in the shunted side caps as the max I is higher than usual. meaning the fet side of the shunt voltage inst being as harshly effected.
Things to watch for is potholes could rattle your battery cells with current spikes. Hopefully the GM BMS can filter all that road noise out. ;D
-
Actually I have a ping battery. I don't think the GM battery would have been able to supply some of the amps I've got from this Pie! ;D
@27 miles full throttle, I have not ran out of juice yet! ;)
I like the GM batteries switch and the fact you can mount it neatly on the rack, and the fact it's secure. But I really wanted a 20 amp.
Leslie, if I buy a 1kw kit, I expect a 1kw kit, if It was advertised as 750w then I might not have bought it in the first place. It's not good company policy to falsely sell a 1kw kit, just because most people might not hook up a cycle analyst and not notice the difference, doesn't make it right! And the same applies to the magic controller! They should advertise the kits as they are!
Ok I have made my point, enough said.
I am dying to take the bike to a near by mountain at just over 2650 feet, the last few km's are around 16% and would be a great test for the motor. It's about 22 miles away and too far to go there and back on the bike, I have no way to transport the bike, not in my car anyway! :'(
-
Actually I have a ping battery. I don't think the GM battery would have been able to supply some of the amps I've got from this Pie! ;D
@27 miles full throttle, I have not ran out of juice yet! ;)
I like the GM batteries switch and the fact you can mount it neatly on the rack, and the fact it's secure. But I really wanted a 20 amp.
Leslie, if I buy a 1kw kit, I expect a 1kw kit, if It was advertised as 750w then I might not have bought it in the first place. It's not good company policy to falsely sell a 1kw kit, just because most people might not hook up a cycle analyst and not notice the difference, doesn't make it right! And the same applies to the magic controller! They should advertise the kits as they are!
Ok I have made my point, enough said.
I am dying to take the bike to a near by mountain at just over 2650 feet, the last few km's are around 16% and would be a great test for the motor. It's about 22 miles away and too far to go there and back on the bike, I have no way to transport the bike, not in my car anyway! :'(
But the battery is 50 volts right. Thats usually what the starting voltage is.
And you said the new controller was doing 20 amps up a hill right?.
If you multiply the volts by the current you get the watts, 50v*20A =1000 watts.
Any way I said I was going to my own DC to DC converter switcher for this relay.
Still not as cheap as a single regulator and relay needed for the higher voltages. I need the step downs as I want this to make my controller compatible from 24v to 90v hot. I could get this controller doing 100v if I am carefull. But another day maybe.
The controller I plan to hook this up to has its fet driver and logic own regulator and resistors set for 48v with no LVC. but has an another power bus that can power it. I plan on using the switcher to feed all things 12v and below. Including my light system. So I will try getting the lm338 to limit to 50v and the switcher to do the rest down to 12v.
-
Actually leslie the magic controller is supposed to be 30 amps. My battery is 52 volts x 30 amps = 1560 Watts.
I see your point in Gm trying to keep to the ratings of their 1kw motors, but they sell the magic controller with their 250, 350, 750 watt motors so, I don't believe that the 20 amp limit is imposed by Gm to keep within the ratings of the motors, I think the limit is more in keeping with the temperature limits of the controller! The reason I think that might be the case is the fact that they sell a so called controller box with absolutely no ventilation and I bet the controllers were roasting.
Anyway, update time. I have lost cruise control, Wiring is fine and checked with a different cruise switch of the same type. Regen braking is much reduced and I believe this to be because the current is reduced by the software. No big deal. But I did like cruise!
I'm going to use this controller as it is as I want the power and it's working fine now with the mod, I will save up for a controller from ebikes.ca, I don't know if I'm allowed to post their site? I think I prefer the case style as they are easier to mount.
BTW leslie, would it not be easier to use lights with internal batteries? I don't ride far by night, as I would get killed with the standard of some of the roads here+ the crazy drivers! :)
-
Okay cruise works again, I guess the magic controller heard that I was talking bad about it! ;)
I went for a good long spin today and it's working good. It eats hills, I had great fun indeed. ;D The controller got really hot, but that's mainly because I was pulling 35 amps and going slow up those really steep bits in the woods, and it wasn't getting great air flow. I had not been up anything that steep before with the pie and had to peddle from stop on the steepest parts, but at least I know it will take me up the steepest of hills that is possible to go up on a bike! My old 1000w motor completely stopped on most of the hills with lots of peddling, I had it limited to 20 amps though, max, It would have fried at 35 amps. It used to get hot enough, where as the pie stays luke warm no matter what!
-
The Magic controller fets at 35 amps are producing 21 watts over each channel.
Each fet has a v drop of .6v an at 35 amps this equates to 21 watts inside the fet.
So we make it easy to understand I will show you a picture.
this is your thermal limit, you may need to test the temperature of the fet to make sure you don't execeed the temperature I have plotted.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2914;image)
Some more complex math I need to do with derating so I can tell you your limit current at your packs voltage.
The voltage drop can increase .8v with higher voltages and decrease to .5 at lower voltages so at 24v this can do 50 amps and still only make 25 watts inside the fet.
Some additional cooling may be required to elevate your performance at your set limits and if the above thermal limits are exceeded your controller will die.
-
The temperature of the inside of the controller effects the derating.
So your fet may well be operating in normal parameters at first but as the temperature rises inside the controller so to does the fet.
This makes sense to why a fet can do 100 amps but your controller is limited to 50 amps. Why cant the controller do 120 amps.
If you could keep the controller fets temperature down below 25 degoC then it could do 100 amps. But this is not practical.
A good easy test is to put your nose in after a hard ride and if it doesnt smell right you maybe too late.
For now I suggest on warm days take your controller max amps down on warmer days until we learn more about what we are doing.
-
V/I=R
48v/ your 35amps lets say about 25 continuous= 1.4 ohms cold and 1.92 ohms normalized resistance total. I am not being generous as you should consider a little overhead.
Let assume the pack is as low as .08ohms The motor is .08 equals .16 could be higher and another reason to not be generous.
The fets on resistance is close enough to 1.24 colder and 1.76 ohms hot.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2918;image)
This tells me on this new graph your fets are doing 50oc cold and getting close to about 125oc hot at the junction in the controller box .
Yes facing the same load, 35A from your controller shows the fets are cooler than at 25 amps. :o When you see the current say 10 amps on a hill this means your fets are getting hot. But of cause 35 amps will get your there.
With out definitive details about your battery resistances and true current ratings at a voltage on load and what voltages are average after the shunt I can only guesstimate..
Now we look at the forward diode characteristics.
At 25 amps continuous by the looks may be above the 55oc as the 175oc is suggesting the diodes reaction to thermal runaway so for the picture and save me a heap of math we assume that the voltage drop on the fet diode is about .9v this equates to
25 amps * .9v = 22.5 watts on the fet. At 35 amps its 31 watts.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2920;image)
If you look at this graph you have 25o to nothing head room in your controller. If you are ridding on cold days now you will be fine.
Where you live I believe it is going into winter but still maybe warmer. If you lived where I do, Australia northernish, in summer your controller would prolly be toast.
-
HI Leslie,
Send some Australian sunshine here please :) It's wet today so I won't be out. :'(
The weather here in Ireland in summer will rarely go beyond 25-27 Celsius peak, Average is between 16-22 degrees Celsius, It's a very humid damp climate, with little sunshine. The weather is pretty much dominated by the Atlantic ocean. And in winter usually keeps us mild, Though that seems to be getting colder now, last winter was the coldest in over 50 years!
Okay enough with the weather lol. I have thought of installing some kind of temperature activated fan? or I could eliminate the small controller case and mount the fet's on some decent kind of heatsink. I could cut a hole in my battery box and fix the heatsink to it. I may as well use the battery box as I have lots of space. I could also make it water tight no problem!
-
LOL.
Ahh you reading all that techno bable.
To make life easier, On a fresh charged pack, when you go up your big hill do you notice a drop in current as you travel up it? You may notice towards the end?
Edit:
Oh and you must look at the amps on the steep grade not speeding up out of it.
-
LOL.
Ahh you reading all that techno bable.
To make life easier, On a fresh charged pack, when you go up your big hill do you notice a drop in current as you travel up it? You may notice towards the end?
Of course I read it Leslie, lol. Not sure I understand it all though! ;D
I don't notice any loss of current at all under any conditions, however as I said before as the pie builds up speed the current draw reduces, and the controller can cool down as speed increases and current reduces. It doesn't take long even on steep hills to pick up speed. Now in the woods yesterday they were incredibly steep but short, and I could not go at full speed up to them. I usually was going really slow coming up to them as the wood trails are not safe for speed. If I was pulling a trailer with lots of weight, I would definitely use another cooling method or another controller, or riding up very steep mountains for lots of Km's at slow speed. I find it's better to keep the speed up at full throttle as it will use less current once going 12+ mph than going slower if that makes sense?
OH one thing I forgot to say, has anyone with a Magic Pie motor noticed the spokes make noise? It's surely not stealth that's for sure, but something that doesn't bother me as I have so much fun with this motor! It may bother some people as it might make people think there is something wrong!
-
I have to go now so I will answer the question both ways.
If you notice the amps drop as you are traveling up the hill then there is need for concern.
If the amps stay rock solid all the way up your magic controller is thumping the hills.
As you see that the resistance of the fet increases with high temps and this through a single fet will limit your current.
But if the current dips by even a few amps or more amps either add cooling or decrease your amps by half the dip in current.
So if you see 10 amps drop due to the heat, reduce your amps by 5 amps.
If you use cooling, eg heat sinks or air flow etc. Cool it so heat is not effecting you current draw.
Understanding me here?
-
LOL.
Ahh you reading all that techno bable.
To make life easier, On a fresh charged pack, when you go up your big hill do you notice a drop in current as you travel up it? You may notice towards the end?
I don't notice any loss of current at all under any conditions,
Well that solves that. Other than a bad smell you may notice before you boil the controller and hot days you should be well in the clear.
Other controller sometimes have 12 to 18 fets and these will not limit current under high temperatures and melt the motor, where as the Magic controller has some concern with derating.
Efficiency wise it wont matter much having less fets as the watts wasted is the same when current is divided over the parallel fets.
They all drop voltage and this is the diode effect not real resistance like a resistor.
12 fets 18 fets blah blah as long as you keep the heat down off the fets efficiency is adequate.
-
This is what I plan to do.
I want to make my HBS hub accept 90v.
I have some winding wire and enough to rewind a spare melted stator I have stripped bare. I have failed to rewind it the first time due to the fact after very heavy loading I melted the insulator around the stator.
This is what happens when you truly overload a hub until its smokin.
A before and after shot.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/compare-1.jpg?t=1280531402)
I had to remove the stator insulator to rewind and this makes it hard to rewind and get the former paper to stop the stator from cutting into the wires.
I want to design a box with a large heat sink attracted to the controller from the outside into the inside.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2922;image)
-
Leslie, I think you are crazier than I LOL. why don't you just go and buy a pie? 90 volts? why don't you convert an old motorbike? I would be too scared to go so fast. That would give you over 40 mph? Is that not too much stress for a motor like that?
I think it might be easier for me to install a large heatsink on my battery box. Just remove the board from the case and mount the board to the heatsink and put some kind of cover over it.
By the way leslie, how did you manage to cook that motor? ;D
I would be very interested to know how much power the pie could take. It never gets hot, only slightly warm.
-
Leslie, I think you are crazier than I LOL. why don't you just go and buy a pie? 90 volts? why don't you convert an old motorbike? I would be too scared to go so fast. That would give you over 40 mph? Is that not too much stress for a motor like that?
I think it might be easier for me to install a large heatsink on my battery box. Just remove the board from the case and mount the board to the heatsink and put some kind of cover over it.
By the way leslie, how did you manage to cook that motor? ;D
I would be very interested to know how much power the pie could take. It never gets hot, only slightly warm.
Well if you reduce the current to the motor the winding can induce torque from the voltage, the coils are an inductor by nature. I will never get the 20 amps of torque at that voltage but if I was to rewind the dead motor with a longer wire with more turns over each former (coil core) I will get plenty of torque and it may slow the motor down a bit. I wont get much more than 1400 watts out of it.
So 1400W/90v = 15 amps. 15 amps is what I will limit it to via a shunt. With more winding and less current, the motor will be slower than a normal HBS hub at 90v but I may get 65+kph out of her on the flats. And a lighter lithium pack will take a lot of the load off the motor. THE AH will be better and more efficient.
Its like a low RPM high torque 220v motor. It has longer thinner windings and winds out the voltage and converts it to Magnetic density and not so much magnetic intensity.
Magnetic density = amps = torque
Magnetic intensity = volts = speed.
These two can be interchangeable by way of how you wind the coils..
How the motor gots melted.
So!
Who killed the electric bike.
The Wife. :P
My wife loves to shop. :o
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/Thehose.jpg?t=1280546125)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/Shopping.jpg?t=1280546267)
And note the 28kgs of SLA's strapped to the frame.
This was a 36v 750 watt HBS running at 48v 1000 watts.
The motor survived the above abuse OK, it was the next weeks or the week after shop that killed the electric bike. LOL I would of done the same as we thought there was nothing going to stop this baby.
Poo it stunk and I had to hose it down it was so freaking hot.
It ran for a few days and the hall sensor blew out, so when I repaired I saw the melting and thought it wise to not use this motor anymore and try to rewind it.
honestly I would not attempt to push more current through the Pie. You may find the current will pick up when you put more volts in and you may gain a little more torque but then again I do think you should enjoy your bike as it is and do stuff when a repair is needed..
This way if you mod when your bike is defunct you are not risking a working bike to try out for more performance.
-
I will add the pie runs a little slower than other hubs for the same amps, this is not because it is not as good, this is because it has more coil slots and a longer winding with larger stator diameter.
The Pie begs for more volts IMO.
Like if you run a 12v 50watt halogen bulb it will pull 4.1 amps at 12v
50w/12v=4.1 amps
12v/4.1= 2.9 ohms.
If we run the 2.9 ohm load at 13 v
13v/2.9 ohms = 4.5 amps.
One more volt to the bulb equates to 400ma more current. 13v*4.5 amps= 58.5watts and so we get 8.5 more watts from the bulb too.
The same applies to a motor that has a little bit of resistance taking down the current to the motor.
There is a point where saturation will not allow any more current through the coil.
-
That's some setup Leslie. That poor bike does carry some heavy loads! That's why I think a pie would suit your needs better? I think going faster than 25mph with those loads would be dangerous.
I am happy with the pie's performance, I would like to be able to hit 30 mph or a little faster, but I think I would need a lot more voltage. So that's not possible now.
I would really love to compare the pie with the BMC V3 with the same battery and controller. I know the guys over at the sphere were testing it with BMC's 50 amp controller and it melted phase wires, ( obviously ) And had to rewire 10g to the axle. It's supposed to be really fast @48-52 v up to 40mph? And the torque is supposed to be incredible. It's a pity there is no way to increase efficiency like that without using gears.
GM say they will have an option when ordering pie II, to change the winding for speed or torque, But I would imagine if I was looking for 30+ mph that I would suffer a major loss of torque?
Good luck Leslie with the rewinding, I can only imagine it will be slow and painful ! ;D
-
That's some setup Leslie. That poor bike does carry some heavy loads! That's why I think a pie would suit your needs better? I think going faster than 25mph with those loads would be dangerous.
I am happy with the pie's performance, I would like to be able to hit 30 mph or a little faster, but I think I would need a lot more voltage. So that's not possible now.
I would really love to compare the pie with the BMC V3 with the same battery and controller. I know the guys over at the sphere were testing it with BMC's 50 amp controller and it melted phase wires, ( obviously ) And had to rewire 10g to the axle. It's supposed to be really fast @48-52 v up to 40mph? And the torque is supposed to be incredible. It's a pity there is no way to increase efficiency like that without using gears.
GM say they will have an option when ordering pie II, to change the winding for speed or torque, But I would imagine if I was looking for 30+ mph that I would suffer a major loss of torque?
Good luck Leslie with the rewinding, I can only imagine it will be slow and painful ! ;D
Yeah the gears are little bit of a downer on the BMC motors. I think what use is all that torque if it is going to hit the nylon gears on the rugged terrain.
The 20" cast rim pie is sort of what I got my eye on for the heavy loads. The issues with the size will not be so bad, as you can imagine not having the problems with spokes and rims may be a relief. The roads are pretty harsh on my rides.
Yeah it;s arguable where efficiency lies the best geared or not geared. If your in hilly terrain and good roads the geared motor is prolly a good choice.
I have some hills as I live in the higher areas but when I get down it is all flat sugar cane farms for miles. This is where the gearless rules. The gearless torque at higher speeds is awesome.
If you don't mind doing some pedals the gearless is great. Not even performance cars at the lights could beat me off the mark with my big SLAS sinking some pedals into the take offs with my old GM controller and hub.
The slapperty slap down named the the MP dual the monster and king on the hills. This was a 36v setup with 2 MPv1 with a 26" wheel. The 9C won the single hill climb and beat the BMCV2 S 600 W. The BMC may not be the best for torque but seems to be good at putting it into speed. It did win the speed test. As I said the Magpie is just asking for some volts. 36v magpie isn't what I would enter into a running race against anything.
http://www.slappityslapdown.com/Slappity_Slapdown/2010_RESULTS.html (http://www.slappityslapdown.com/Slappity_Slapdown/2010_RESULTS.html)
I would like to see a 20" pie doing this hill test.
Yes the slappity slap down. LOL you should check the vids out, it's funny as, and I do hope to see it again in 2011 with more entries. Like Clyte and the BMCv3. And the few other hubs. Even a cyclone setup would be cool to see.
I would like to see some Clyte X5s doing their stuff.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17311 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17311)
Interesting thread here an MP at 110v going at 80kph with great torque for a gearless pulling 40 amps. motor 100 deg C 4400 watts. I would give it just a little more amps at 110v and see what happens. Every 1 amp at 110v equals 110wats. So another 5 amps is going to give 550 watts maybe too much.
IMO the Pie wants some more volts. :P
-
I saw the slappity slapdown vids, those guys are crazy! ;D The dual pie they said is a monster climber, so thay had a total power of 1500 watts. And I'm pulling just over 1800 watts on a single pie. I got over 60 amps (3kw) before I fried the internal controller. Insane torque@ 60 amps! Still, it is a monster climber alright @35amps ;D I would like to see them test the BMC V3
From what I have seen on the sphere, I think the pie is most efficient @48-52 volts? and at higher voltage would be less efficient? I love the fact that the current drops to around 18-20 amps on the level once up to speed, So I guess the pie is quiet efficient. Anyway Ill keep riding as it is and enjoy it. The other thing now is to try and improve cooling to the fet's.
-
Ahh! at last my brain is fried. To much information and learning.
Night all.
-
Sniff Sniff I think my fun pie days are drawing ever closer to an end! After my ride in the woods I came home and was cleaning the bike when I noticed 5 loose spokes. They did not break, The end bits seemed to have come off and are inside the rim, I can hear them as the wheel turns. Has anyone god any idea if I can fix this, or prevent it happening again? It's one thing after another in this ebiking world! I really don't want to have to take this wheel apart again, oh the pain! :'(
Here is a pic, I'm sorry about the quality as I had to take it with my phone. My Girlfriend has taken the camera home to Germany for a few days!
-
Mark, unfortunately you will have to remove the tyre, inner tube and the rubber rim tape to access (and refit) the lost nipples.
You should be able to do this without removing the wheel, but it will be a bit of a fiddle removing and fitting the tyre and tube assembly with the wheel still in the frame.
With the tyre, tube and rim tape removed, you should be able to persuade the nipples to fall out of the access holes in the rim.
Then you need to get them threaded onto the spokes again. I had to use a pair of fine pointed tweezers to get mine started, but as you have the modified spoke pattern on your wheel there might be an easier way:
If you have a spare spoke, you should be able to screw it into the wrong end of the nipple a couple of turns.
Wrap some sticky tape around the end of the spoke to prevent the nipple from threading on any further, and you should now be able to poke the nipple into the rim and line it up with the spoke and carefully wind it on as far as it will go.
Now, hold the small end of the nipple (the spoke key end) with one hand, and you should be able to simply unscrew the spoke you have just used as a tool to fit the nipple in place.
Now repeat this procedure for the other nipples and then gradually tighten them until they are approximately as tight as all the rest, whilst checking that the rim still runs true. With your wheel, you may be able to do this with a flat bladed screwdriver, failing that use a spoke key as normal.
As five nipples have already come loose, there's a very good chance that all the other spokes are going to be too loose and will probably need to be tightened up a bit more.
Start with the spoke next to the valve hole and work your way around all of the spokes in turn and try to tighten each of them by 90 degrees (assuming they will turn that far without getting too stiff).
When you reach the valve hole, re-check the tension of the spokes by either plucking or flicking them. If they don't sound tight enough, go round again until all the spokes are correctly tightened ensuring the rim remains perfectly true. If the spokes are tight enough, the nipples should not come loose, but if you want to put a small blob of locking compound on each spoke/nipple joint it probably won't hurt. ;)
The spokes on my rear wheel (which I rebuilt over five months ago) have not been touched since the wheel was refitted, and they are still nice and tight and the wheel is still perfectly true (without any locking compound being used).
Hope this helps.
Alan
-
Hi Alan,
Thanks, that was really useful information as I have not got a clue about spokes! :)
They all seemed tight to begin with as I checked them often enough, So I'm wondering if I'm going to continue to have problems with them or is it because of the extra torque I have been getting out of the motor? Some of the hills in the woods are really steep and maybe I should avoid it from now on, it really is fun. But the poor motor has to haul my 220lb ass up there!
This is strange as there has been noise from the spokes all along. It's hard to describe, like maybe they are stretching or something like that!
-
superglue
Never thought of that one, I thought of silver solder. But that is a little permanent, I could offer a better product for the job.
Maybe some JB weld instead? ??? ???
-
220lb ass up there!
:o :o :o :o :o
I had many early spoke problems with the weight thing. I had them pull out of rims, snap, spokes pull out of nipples, and wobbly wheels, coming loose, I had two wheels for two bikes and soon I had one with a full set of spokes and another missing as I used them for spares.
It took me ages to learn the right balance of tension, rim strength
In a word you lucky they are still good.
-
I had no trouble what so ever with my old motor. and Pat who is heaver than me has no problems with spokes either! I wonder would the lack of rear suspension have anything to do with it? Some of the roads I ride on are atrocious, and all those knocks and bumps must not be good!
Ok way past bed time zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
-
I had no trouble what so ever with my old motor. and Pat who is heaver than me has no problems with spokes either! I wonder would the lack of rear suspension have anything to do with it? Some of the roads I ride on are atrocious, and all those knocks and bumps must not be good!
Ok way past bed time zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yes I use a hardtail MBT. I think this would make a large difference. It was good to establish some pretty heavy standards to my technique of riming.
I am planning to go full suspension with my next build. I should be well prepared for any problems.
-
okay, Spokes fixed. Rather easy I thought! Lucky I did not have to take the wheel off. The torque arms are holding up really well. I will keep a closer eye on these spokes in future. Funny thing is, I did keep a check on them, they did seem tight all along, but I'm now thinking that maybe they seem tight, but the nipples could still be loose? Anyway another lesson learned in Ebiking school today! ;D
Leslie, I had a full suspension bike, the rear suspension was good for ass comfort, but the thing was all over the road. It was not suitable for electric at all. I could not afford the price of a really strong suspension bike. The front suspension on the new one however is terrific, and my hands and arms are not bouncing all over the place! I will buy a suspension saddle post in the future. Actually I'm just thinking that more and more bikes I'm seeing are beginning to be less strong for conversion to electric, especially the rear drop outs, and the way they are made makes it tough to mount torque arms!
-
Check this baby out!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=1188&category_id=12
Now that would make a superb electric bike!!! No chance of a full rack on the back. I wouldn't trust a seat post rack with a 20 amp ping!
So many really good bikes out there, but there is so many problems with rak mounting, weak drop outs etc. The price is really crazy, I know you get what you pay for, but for 4000 sterling you could buy a half decent car!
-
okay, Spokes fixed. Rather easy I thought! Lucky I did not have to take the wheel off.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_thumb_up_230608.GIF)
Well done Mark, I'm glad you managed to do it the easy way without having to disturb all those nice new wires.
Anyway another lesson learned in Ebiking school today!
I bet you never thought Sunday school would be so useful. (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/3_small.GIF)
Did the other spokes tighten up much?
If the suspension seat post doesn't help, fatter tyres should make a difference. I'm running on a pair of 26 x 2.35 tyres with no suspension whatsoever and they certainly do improve the ride.
Alan
-
Thanks Alan. ;)
Yes Sunday school has proven to be rather useful ;D
Some of the other spokes were a little loose, and now that I think of it, they did seem tight. So that's something I must check after ever couple of rides!
They are cool looking tyres, and probably have a lower rolling resistance? I have never seen tyres like that in my local bike shop, No surprise either! They could probably order them.
I must go for a spin today I think there is no rain forecast! :o It's such a shame sunshine is rare here as at the height of summer it's daylight until 10.30 PM or later if the sky is clear! I want a heatwave! :'( I do notice the climate seems to be cooling as I remember much hotter summers. Where is this global warming?
-
Went for a 10 mile spin and it's fine and no more spoke noise. They were obviously a bit loose when I got the motor new!
Alan, Is your pie modded?
-
Alan, Is your pie modded?
Mark, my Pie is only modified externally, the internals are still standard, giving a Maximum current draw of just slightly over 20Amps on both 30 and 60 Volt battery packs.
The attachment below shows the modified spoke flange (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1653.msg9193#msg9193) that I had to design, fabricate and fit in order to get my rim correctly centred, because I was determined to fit those lovely big tyres on the bike. ;D
As a direct result of my modification, along a few other useful suggestions from fellow members, GM quickly redesigned the motor ring, covers and axle and also implemented my proposed unorthodox spoke pattern to produce the correctly centred wheel that you now have fitted to your bike.
So it just goes to show that suggestions are taken seriously and changes are made if they are considered necessary. :)
How many other companies can you think of that would take this much notice of their customers and act upon feedback this quickly? ::)
Alan
-
My pie isn't centred since pat made up the torque arms. One is on the outside and the other on the inside. I'm not sure why he did it, And I Dare not ask him lol. At the end of the day he was good enough to do it and they work a treat!
Alan, Have you not considered adding a few amps to your pie? ;D
good work with the spoke design for the pie. ;) I did see that thread a while back!
-
My pie isn't centred since pat made up the torque arms. One is on the outside and the other on the inside. I'm not sure why he did it, And I Dare not ask him lol. At the end of the day he was good enough to do it and they work a treat!
Alan, Have you not considered adding a few amps to your pie? ;D
good work with the spoke design for the pie. ;) I did see that thread a while back!
Alan's Pie is limited to 20 amps inside the controller from what understand.
-
Alan's Pie is limited to 20 amps inside the controller from what understand.
Hi Leslie, yeah I know that I was just wondering if he ever got the urge to mod! ;D
And my internal controller was limited to 15 amps. Not fair! :'(
It does seem rather a waste having such restrictions on such a good motor!
Wouldn't it be cool if they could find a way to liquid cool the internal controller somehow? Maybe 2 pipes out the other end of the axle, hooked up to a radiator. Yes I think that would be cool! ;D it works pretty well for a P.C!
-
Alan's Pie is limited to 20 amps inside the controller from what understand.
Hi Leslie, yeah I know that I was just wondering if he ever got the urge to mod! ;D
There's no way I can modify it to produce as much power as my other bikes, 58,500 Watts is just not feasible.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/emot71.GIF)
Alan
-
There's no way I can modify it to produce as much power as my other bikes, 58,500 Watts is just not feasible.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/emot71.GIF)
Alan
HAHA funny LMAO ;D Where did you get those cool smilies?
YA I think you would fry your pie at that power level alright. ;D
How about converting one of those cool bikes then? plenty of space for some nice lithium! ;)
I think Crystalyte make hub motors for motorbikes ? I see some guys using external motor and chain, I think that makes them way too noisy!
The cost of lithium batteries for a project like that would be huge!
-
PFT! ICE motors
I should say NICE motors.
But there is an aweful lot of inefficiency that goes with those watts.
Electric motors by any standard have better potential to be powerfull. You show me a big ICE motor and I can show you an electric motor bigger.
But we await for the ESU ultra cap to power them. Or something better. Or real.
Mark
I your type of interest do not suit are not suited for the internal controller anyway.
Interesting. I would love to see you do it.
For water cooling techniques you could start here. Computer water cooling.
(http://www.koolance.com/default.php)
(http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/images/more/ram-33_p0.jpg)
(http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/images/more/ram-33_p1.jpg)
If you can squeeze your fets into a liquid cooling RAM block you are in for a treat. You can also purchase some low conductive coolant that wont blow you gear up if you spring a leak.
-
If you can squeeze your fets into a liquid cooling RAM block you are in for a treat. You can also purchase some low conductive coolant that wont blow you gear up if you spring a leak.
Hi Leslie, If there was a leak, it's bye bye fet's. You would need some good thermal management. That's something cpu's have and it's very effective. You can also set in the motherboard bios what temp you want fans to come on, p.c shut-down temp etc. Also I think the pipes required for sufficient coolant flow would have to be large and would never fit through the axle.
I was going to install a large heatsink and fit it to the outside of my battery box, but I'm not going to ride in the woods for a while and so it is not necessary at the moment.
-
If you can squeeze your fets into a liquid cooling RAM block you are in for a treat. You can also purchase some low conductive coolant that wont blow you gear up if you spring a leak.
Hi Leslie, If there was a leak, it's bye bye fet's. You would need some good thermal management. That's something cpu's have and it's very effective. You can also set in the motherboard bios what temp you want fans to come on, p.c shut-down temp etc. Also I think the pipes required for sufficient coolant flow would have to be large and would never fit through the axle.
I was going to install a large heatsink and fit it to the outside of my battery box, but I'm not going to ride in the woods for a while and so it is not necessary at the moment.
No no.
Water is not a conductor. It is the minerals in water that cause the by by to parts. Distilled water is fine to pour onto stuff :o, but it soon becomes not pure and dzzzt.
One thing is that if you play with water cooling you use the right stuff. This is not unlike distilled water but has anti corrosives in them to keep the coolant pure.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5597/ex-liq-34/PrimoChill_ICE_Non-Conductive_Liquid_Cooling_Fluid_32_oz_-_Invisible_Blue.html?tl=g30c337s886
(http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/main/ex-liq-07.jpg)
*Non-Conductivity: As with all Non-Conductive fluids, PC ICE can become conductive if it comes in contact with excessive dust or other fluids that may be conductive. The Non-Conductive aspect of PC Ice is used as a safety measure only. It is always a good idea to keep your system clean and free of dust, especially in a water cooled system. PrimoChill is not responsible for any hardware damage. Use at your own risk.]
*Non-Conductivity: As with all Non-Conductive fluids, PC ICE can become conductive if it comes in contact with excessive dust or other fluids that may be conductive. The Non-Conductive aspect of PC Ice is used as a safety measure only. It is always a good idea to keep your system clean and free of dust, especially in a water cooled system. PrimoChill is not responsible for any hardware damage. Use at your own risk.
Tooth brush your controller clean before you try it and PiMp dAt RiG. Some UV lights to illuminate the cooling pipes.
As for the cooling the motor people cut holes in the face plate. But honestly that could create some problems.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2959;image)
I thought you could bolt and thermal paste some low profile heat sinks and inside the motor on the face plates of the Pie to create a fan effect inside the motor and they could be joining to heat sink on the outside of the face plate.
Measure it all and use all the right colours and it would look professional.
-
Alan.
I do think your Motor Bikes are very nice machines. And very well cared for, prefect!
But watch this video and tell me what you think.
This is the Killercycle.
(http://transitlist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Killacycle_Kiwi.jpg)
8)
KillaCycle Affirms Life KillaCycle® is the quickest and most powerful electric motorcycle in the world. It is quicker and faster than ANY other electric-powered vehicle on the drag strip. It has over 500 hp and accelerates 0-60 mph (0-96 km/h) in less than a second! The secret– The batteries! The powerful nano-phosphate™ battery cells are what makes the KillaCycle® go as fast...
372 kw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akximCGuLm8&feature=PlayList&p=AE5AB0B04BDA8BB5&index=26&playnext=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akximCGuLm8&feature=PlayList&p=AE5AB0B04BDA8BB5&index=26&playnext=2)
;D
What do ya think?
There is not much that holds the electric motors back and you can hear that by the amount of sound such a powerful motor is making, not too loud if you compare to ICE. The electric motor is superior in so many ways.
Mark
Do you think you could get the Pie up to the speed of the killercycle. Mwhahaha. Ive heard of bike getting up to 100kph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0lQOBhLG68&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0lQOBhLG68&feature=related)
Meet DrBass. This guy is very speed and power happy.
Power to weight ratio can be seriously cool with a bicycle. But you would need to consider the road quality and bike strength going at any speeds that will make your eyes water.
-
I guess some ship engines are super massive.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/329817528_1376d8279f_o.jpg)
The name is Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged diesel engine:
it has 14 cylinders
Output Power is 80,080 kW or 108,920 bhp.
(your Jeep may have 300 bhp)
width 26,7 meters, height 13,2 meters
(a small apartment building)
OMG.
This is the largest e-vehicle I could find on the net.
(http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/08Bigdump2.jpg)
(http://64.202.120.86/upload/image/new-news/2008/december/los-alamos-magnet-lab-explores-superconductivity/world-largest-generator.jpg)
But you could maybe reverse the generator function here and turn it into a motor if you like.
The thing, is the ICE needs to consume a lot more volumetric space for the combustion chambers, and electric motors are much more space conservative.
Its hard to compare by size alone.
-
I've seem that clip before, but this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ1eMYdLKrs&feature=related) is still my personal favourite. It clearly demonstrates why the power breaking brake switches should always be used!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_smile2_230608.GIF)
Alan
-
This is the largest e-vehicle I could find on the net.
(http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/08Bigdump2.jpg)
Large e-vehicles have been around for some time:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Dirigible-electric.jpg)
Airship powered by an electric motor developed by Albert and Gaston Tissandier departing from Auteuil in Paris on October 8, 1883.
-
LOL I saw that one too, wth were they thinking setting that loose on a public side walk. Ooops it gots too much traction just a little bit voooom bang crash ouch. and no helmet.
I think there were more skid marks in his underwear than on the side walk after that demonstration. ;D
I got bored of the bike, and started checking out the gal wiggling on the riders seat. :P. ;D
Agreed about brake switches, ebikes are quite a bit safer safer without the switch. But not still a danger as people underestimate what the humble ebike can do to when it gets its head loose.
LOL I think he was too scared to lay the bike. I would of jumped off real fast.
Edit:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2969;image)
-
No no.
Water is not a conductor. It is the minerals in water that cause the by by to parts. Distilled water is fine to pour onto stuff :o, but it soon becomes not pure and dzzzt.
Hi Leslie, I know that, what I meant to say was if the coolant leaked the fet's would quickly over heat and fry!
Do I think I can get my pie up to the speed of the kilacycle? LOL I doubt it, not without another battery and controller. I would like to see it at 100volts! ;D If I could get it to 35 mph I would be happy, but really 24-25 mph is a good safe max on a push bike, for me anyway, going faster is really insane without protective clothing. And at that rate you would be better off on a motorbike or scooter!
I would love to have a good electric motorbike or scooter, that would be cool! I can't wait to get a test drive in the €30,000 :o Nissan Leaf in February. The electric company (ESB) is installing charging points all over the country over the next few years, slow and fast chargers, and Nissan has said they will install them too at the dealers! 0-80% 1n 15-30 mins, not sure which? And I have no doubt that that they will show up in shopping centres and the likes, they will probably charge 3 times the normal domestic rate. I have no doubt in my mind that we will get ripped off for charging like everything else!
Now I would love to modify the Leaf, :) a shunt here, few extra volts there. Some kind of really high current supply linked to a switch, kinda like turbo boost! ;)
I wonder will anyone get the claimed 100 miles or 160 kms range? I bet those figures were in a town or city at no more than 30 mph! It's still way off the best modern European turbo diesels, which can reach as high as 80 mpg slightly more. Beat that with any hybrid! My old Audi A4 130hp Diesel, 300,000 km can do 48 mpg on a 100 mile run @90mph! Can do 55mpg @ 50-60 mph! Not bad for an old car!
-
No no.
Water is not a conductor. It is the minerals in water that cause the by by to parts. Distilled water is fine to pour onto stuff :o, but it soon becomes not pure and dzzzt.
Hi Leslie, I know that, what I meant to say was if the coolant leaked the fet's would quickly over heat and fry!
Do I think I can get my pie up to the speed of the kilacycle? LOL I doubt it, not without another battery and controller. I would like to see it at 100volts! ;D If I could get it to 35 mph I would be happy, but really 24-25 mph is a good safe max on a push bike, for me anyway, going faster is really insane without protective clothing. And at that rate you would be better off on a motorbike or scooter!
I would love to have a good electric motorbike or scooter, that would be cool! I can't wait to get a test drive in the €30,000 :o Nissan Leaf in February. The electric company (ESB) is installing charging points all over the country over the next few years, slow and fast chargers, and Nissan has said they will install them too at the dealers! 0-80% 1n 15-30 mins, not sure which? And I have no doubt that that they will show up in shopping centres and the likes, they will probably charge 3 times the normal domestic rate. I have no doubt in my mind that we will get ripped off for charging like everything else!
Now I would love to modify the Leaf, :) a shunt here, few extra volts there. Some kind of really high current supply linked to a switch, kinda like turbo boost! ;)
I wonder will anyone get the claimed 100 miles or 160 kms range? I bet those figures were in a town or city at no more than 30 mph! It's still way off the best modern European turbo diesels, which can reach as high as 80 mpg slightly more. Beat that with any hybrid! My old Audi A4 130hp Diesel, 300,000 km can do 48 mpg on a 100 mile run @90mph! Can do 55mpg @ 50-60 mph! Not bad for an old car!
Coolant on fets could get a little sticky. Especially is you mod the thing to the point you need the coolant.
Introducing DrBass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2tZ1TDDbY
A Quick ride following cars
The fully charged battery allow this bike to do 210km at 30km/h NO PEDAL
8650W
11hp
210km range
fast charge 1.5hour
79km/h max speed
Power to weight ratio is makes for great range too.
You can do delta wye configuration. This will give you turbo boost, a lot more speed at the same voltages.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:qL5P7rAGRSsTfM:http://www.statemaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Delta_wye_circ.PNG&t=1)
DrBass again.
The normal ratio of a Star to Delta is exactly 1.73x and in this video it show from 35kph to 45kph . I tested that yesterday with a longer road and it reached 55kph so 55/35= 1.58x that is close to the predicted value.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related)
I don't think delta has been done on a done on a Pie before. So do your homework.
-
You can do delta wye configuration. This will give you turbo boost, a lot more speed at the same voltages.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:qL5P7rAGRSsTfM:http://www.statemaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Delta_wye_circ.PNG&t=1)
tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related[/url]
I don't think delta has been done on a done on a Pie before. So do your homework.
Hi Leslie, I have seen dr. bass do his delta, wye, or star? I think is another? anyway, those configurations give great unloaded speed, I have not seen anyone do a fully loaded on the bike test! It is my understanding those speed increases come at the price of much reduced torque, which might make it useless in practical terms? I stand to be corrected on this.
Anyway I don't know how anyone would get more wires out of the pie axle!
-
You can do delta wye configuration. This will give you turbo boost, a lot more speed at the same voltages.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:qL5P7rAGRSsTfM:http://www.statemaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Delta_wye_circ.PNG&t=1)
tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VboRceBoJYw&feature=related[/url]
I don't think delta has been done on a done on a Pie before. So do your homework.
Hi Leslie, I have seen dr. bass do his delta, wye, or star? I think is another? anyway, those configurations give great unloaded speed, I have not seen anyone do a fully loaded on the bike test! It is my understanding those speed increases come at the price of much reduced torque, which might make it useless in practical terms? I stand to be corrected on this.
Anyway I don't know how anyone would get more wires out of the pie axle!
You can rig it up to have the relays inside the Pie. Then you just need the coil switch wires. Fine wires will work.
There seems to be some problem from switching from delta top speed to wye with lots of torque. The accelerator should be disengaged. I'm reading into it now. Something about the relays coils needing to be in series to allow all phase to switch in time. at 48v it could be fine, 36v would be safe with the Magic controller.
Save on buying more batteries for speed..
I think Regen wouldn't be wise to use in some circumstances.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=295494#p295494
Yes there is a speed hit and has been utilized to the point of proof.
If Delta works of the pie it would love it as it has more slots along each phase. So torque may still be in good abundance in delta mode.
-
I suppose power consumption would greatly increase. Though it would be nice if you needed to get home that extra bit quicker!
-
I suppose power consumption would greatly increase. Though it would be nice if you needed to get home that extra bit quicker!
Hmm I don't know about efficiency. You may get an increase of amps but not if your already having max amps happening. As you can tell in the diagram the resistance would be greatly dropped between the phases because you are not going through two phases in wye mode.
It would be up to whether there was much wind on that day or some variable like that.. To see how the Pie in delta is, an inductance test and or impedance test would give you an idea how much is in the pie, as a comparison compare the impedance to a Pie in delta with a HBS in wye mode.
Here is some thing that may help.
The HBS in wye has 17 coils in series and (34/2)/2 coils in parallel. We must remember that the two parallel coils current must pass through 17 coils in series si the current pathway to any one phase is spilt into two paths then forced through one phase.
So reactance of the two parallel phases is halved. This would be the same as 8,5 coils added to the 17 coils in the header phase at any one time. 26.5 coils in series.
The Pie has 63 coils and in a switch event in Delta has 21 coils in series and a dead zone behind the ground phases.
What I may have discovered the Pie in delta may gain torque back with the diameter of the pie having less effect on K compared to the HBS.
The faster 1000w 48v GM motor that reports 54kph in wye may be equally matched in speed and torque to the Pie in Delta.
Hey Look what I found over at ES.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=2971;image)
I marked it in red where I think the average on road performance in red there cause someone else has requested the information. It can indeed do around 440 RPM That equals around 55kph.
It must have short Phat windings on it. Where as the Pie could have longer phat windings on it and express the K factor over more circumference.
So yes the Pie should do better torque in wye than this HBS and the Pie may equal this wye HBS48 1000 watt in torque and speed.
I think a pie at 48v in delta it would be like having my HBS going 53kph at 60v with similar torque. This is slightly inefficient compared to many other motors in why mode.
It would be just trading off the torque gains the Pie gets over the smaller diameter hubs with less coils and getting speed back in return.
The only difference would be you don't need to have another pack to get your RPM.
-
I would probably attempt to do it if I had another motor, so I wouldn't be off the road until I figure it all out! I'm just happy to be on the road now. And it's working fine, I love the acceleration. ;D
-
I would probably attempt to do it if I had another motor, so I wouldn't be off the road until I figure it all out! I'm just happy to be on the road now. And it's working fine, I love the acceleration. ;D
Ha.
Of cause. this is the mod section in an online forum. We can dream and exercise these ideas all we want and never do a single thing. None of what I say should be done, it just could be.
You have a good setup working.
Sometimes when we have a failure reconfigs of our setups are not such challenge, I am reconsidering what I plan all the time. I am sirt of waiting to get some new stuff before bother doing aything.
Whats the point in doing a heap of work if I am going to change it in 2 weeks anyway.
-
Whats the point in doing a heap of work if I am going to change it in 2 weeks anyway.
What are you thinking of getting if you don't mind me asking?
-
Whats the point in doing a heap of work if I am going to change it in 2 weeks anyway.
What are you thinking of getting if you don't mind me asking?
Im not sure.
Im certain to get the 20" cast. Pie. I do prefer rider torque over speed, beside my bikes cant be too off road as I don't want to draw attention to my self.
Because we rely on these things as a primary source of transport, I need some thing that can take more of harsh treatment. I can replace bearings easy enough. I think the senseless mode might be more efficient and reliable with the 20" as there is more movement of the wheel to what ever applies.
I want to try make the plugs work this time.
I will need a spare hub and or bike. So I was considering 700c but will get a 26" as the purpose was to have something that could be used on a few frames I have already.
Initially I will get a 26" MP on the road with the GM pack and have something that I can use out of the box.
the bike will be light, sleek and strong, thats what the kits are made for. I
will set for lower current like 15 amps cont to 20 max so I increase my range and try to take advantage of low wind resistance and low weight. I only weigh 76 KG I I can lose maybe a few LBS so the whole light weight concept is well worth a try. SO I will try a light weight aluminum frame the light GM 48v pack and alloy gear. I will go Kmart for cheap. It would be good for my Wife or me out and about. I this want bike to be a GM gallery bike.
Originally I misunderstood stood the GM concept and built too heavy, I learned a different concept to build e bikes using large heavy SLA's so the experience was good ..
I have wanted the 48v 20ah Ping battery upon reading the reviews on them.
Im going to try use the 48v ping on the 20" MP. This wheel be the work horse doing the most of the trips we need. The wife will pedal anything with a motor on it. She would even use the 60v SLA monster carting 34kg of lead on the frame.
I still have the HBS hub and I may just get 6 12ah batts for it and use my 72v controller on it. But I want to get the new gear before I waste any cash on SLA's
And I still have a 36v brushed bike playcorp Currie tech20" BMX full suspension bike I am ridding now. My daughter almost grew up riding that thing all over, every day with me so, I will keep it running for the kids. I get my SLA's locally and everything else that's needed to put these things together.
Ha, the lil 250 watt 20" bike has low gearing on both motor and pedal so it literally jumps both wheels off the ground at the green light with some pedals, I get about 5 meters ahead of anything before top speed of 28kph lets me down. LOL the hoons think it funny. :P
-
will set for lower current like 15 amps cont to 20 max so I increase my range and try to take advantage of low wind resistance and low weight. I only weigh 76 KG I I can lose maybe a few LBS so the whole light weight concept is well worth a try. SO I will try a light weight aluminum frame the light GM 48v pack and alloy gear. I will go Kmart for cheap. It would be good for my Wife or me out and about. I this want bike to be a GM gallery bike.
I'm not sure you will be impressed @15amps continuous, However each person is different. For me 35amps on take off gets me up to speed quick and it consumes 17-20 max on the level. @30 miles full throttle I still had around 5 amps out of my 20 amp ping, with a few steep short hills. people going up long steep hills will probably get less. (maybe)
This is the funny thing I have noticed, The slower I go up a hill the more the motor consumes, the longer it takes me to get up. If I have lots of amps on take off I will go faster up the hill, and therefore, will get me up to the speed quicker, and I will consume less amps, once up to speed. I'm not sure I can explain it properly, but to me it is not more efficient to set less amps!
-
will set for lower current like 15 amps cont to 20 max so I increase my range and try to take advantage of low wind resistance and low weight. I only weigh 76 KG I I can lose maybe a few LBS so the whole light weight concept is well worth a try. SO I will try a light weight aluminum frame the light GM 48v pack and alloy gear. I will go Kmart for cheap. It would be good for my Wife or me out and about. I this want bike to be a GM gallery bike.
I'm not sure you will be impressed @15amps continuous, However each person is different. For me 35amps on take off gets me up to speed quick and it consumes 17-20 max on the level. @30 miles full throttle I still had around 5 amps out of my 20 amp ping, with a few steep short hills. people going up long steep hills will probably get less. (maybe)
This is the funny thing I have noticed, The slower I go up a hill the more the motor consumes, the longer it takes me to get up. If I have lots of amps on take off I will go faster up the hill, and therefore, will get me up to the speed quicker, and I will consume less amps, once up to speed. I'm not sure I can explain it properly, but to me it is not more efficient to set less amps!
15a continuous will be more impressive on a Pie than it will be on a HBS.
One may think whats the point in getting an MP if the HBS 48v is faster than it.
I assume a Pie in delta = a hbs48v 1000 watt in wye, right? Think about a Pie in wye with 60v compared to a a HBS at 60v, then both at 72v. The speed advantages will start loose appeal with the HBS and the Pie will hold against the wind better at high speed for a few more amps..
More torque and less speed at the same voltages.
I truly believe the at 48v MP has got 12v less speed potentiality with approx 25% more torque over the 53kph HBS48v 1000watt, The performance gains the Pie has is derive from the longer windings and not thicker windings.. The Pie has a longer magnetic pulling arm so the volts per amp can be put to use not so much as the amps per volt..
The only thing that is slowing the hub on hills and on take offs is the weight, right? If I can build a bike that has very little weight and I weigh 73kgs, then 15 amps may seem a little more impressive.
If I load the bike to the max with a trailer, I want it to slow down. Rather this than a melted motor.
The only thing that will be in my way is wind. That's what the pedals will be for with the 26" build I plan. I expect pretty much full speed on the flats and the same speed on hills with some pedals. I expect that the pie torque will out perform either of my HBS hubs at a similar amperage on the hills.
I have mentioned I have only one climb and this is to the end of my journey where the battery is more vulnerable to be pushed hard, other than this it is very flat where I live.
Try doing a hill start with 15 amps and compare the same hill start with 30 amps and see which one uses more watts. The motor makes gravitational potential energy on it's way up, The speed can be regained on the way back down a hill but not much can be re-gained if that speed is at maximum at the crest. You only save time.
In some aspects you are right but in others I may be right. Watts per distance are what you should be looking at to see what actually uses more capacity not just the amps going up a hill.
With the 20" it could be hauling over 200kgs I will need the 20" to convert all the volts into RPM which is better torque in the take offs on the 20" and use the amps to keep it there. The higher RPM will allow more internal air flow inside the motor and the speed will be higher under load so more air flow over the outside of the motor at a higher RPM will improve my cooling.. Even on the 20" I suspect the amps I will draw with normal riding will not be so demanding on hills but the over all capacity will be effected by using the capacity to generate the higher RPM. The 20" on the flats may not be so efficient as a 26".
The questions remain.
At what load does the 26" Pie start to loose its grip of the magnet poles accumulating in power losses compared to a 20" MP. And how much more energy does the 20" MP loose doing more RPM for the same distance traveled compared to the 26"MP.
-
Hi Leslie,
I think the idea is to buy a battery of capacity that is suitable for the job. I like to have the option of full throttle for 30 miles+. To be honest the ping battery is taking me further than I had thought! If I had heavy loads to pull I would than make sure my battery could still do the miles at full throttle or at least not having to peddle.
I know what you are saying about starting up a hill @15 amps, then 30. And yess if you start from 0 it makes a difference. But I have found that the more current I use going up a hill, the quicker I get up to speed and then consumption drops. The less current I use meaning I would have less torque, the more I will continue to consume because I can't get up to speed. I don't think I can get that point across, I am not the best at explaining things!
Anyway my magic controller is toast, I was actually taking it really easy today trying to get in a lot of exercise. All of a sudden there was a very bad vibration. Motor hard to turn. So I had a 15km ride home in the wind!
So now it's official if you want anything more than 20 amps from the supposed to be 30 amp controller then buy a different controller!
Don't modify.
lessons learned!
-
Hi Leslie,
I think the idea is to buy a battery of capacity that is suitable for the job. I like to have the option of full throttle for 30 miles+. To be honest the ping battery is taking me further than I had thought! If I had heavy loads to pull I would than make sure my battery could still do the miles at full throttle or at least not having to peddle.
I know what you are saying about starting up a hill @15 amps, then 30. And yess if you start from 0 it makes a difference. But I have found that the more current I use going up a hill, the quicker I get up to speed and then consumption drops. The less current I use meaning I would have less torque, the more I will continue to consume because I can't get up to speed. I don't think I can get that point across, I am not the best at explaining things!
Anyway my magic controller is toast, I was actually taking it really easy today trying to get in a lot of exercise. All of a sudden there was a very bad vibration. Motor hard to turn. So I had a 15km ride home in the wind!
So now it's official if you want anything more than 20 amps from the supposed to be 30 amp controller then buy a different controller!
Don't modify.
lessons learned!
Yes sorry to hear.
Maybe why some controllers use 12, 140 amp fets. Heat can take its toll slowly and I felt that the heat may of been the beating responsible over all.
But alas you have much to do.
-
Yes Much to do indeed!
I could use the old silver 12 fet 35 amp controller and have no regen. But I really do need the braking power as I had to remove my rear disc and calliper because of the way the rear drop out on the Derailleur side is a strange shape, The torque arm had to go on the inside and so the wheel is not centre any more.
I also like cruise, damn I did like those magic controllers! Please GM start offering a selection of controllers with different current ratings.
I now have to look for a different supplier simply because GM don't offer ANYTHING to supply my requirements.
-
Ohh I just found this right at the bottom of the page DIY-ebikekit.. I forgot about these.
(http://goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/Regen%20Controller.jpg)
http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/DIY-ebikekit.php
Look right down the bottom.
GM still have the black REGEN controllers for sale.
Regen Controller Wiring Diagram (.pdf)
# Regenerative braking (Find How It Works)
# Over-heat protection
# Over-current protection
# Support forward and reverse
# Motor phases auto-detection and self calibration (Instructions)
# Enable and disable regenerative braking feature by a switch
# Programmable for cut-off current, cut-off low voltage, accelerating/decelerating rate
# Dimensions: 155 x 95 x 45mm
Be sure to ask about the program setting ability,
Im pretty sure these have the variable regen at the throttle but they don't freewheel with it enabled. You can balance the throttle to simulate freewheel.
-
Hi Leslie,
that was the controller I had with my first kit from conhismotor. It was around a 18 amp max controller. And I didn't have it long as it fried. The regen was a total pain. Variable regen off the throttle is not a good idea in my opinion, the lack of free wheeling is uncomfortable. Anyway it was not a good controller. In my Opinion!
So the search begins.
-
I had one of the earlier GM throttle regen controllers last me a year. You gotta make sure your battery leads are short and your phase wires are longer. I got very used to the throttle regen and it was very good to have this controll with heavy loads.
The last silver regen controller I had was destroyed by a hall sensor blowing. Too much fighting between the fets. These black controllers used the resistors off the diodes.
The controller you had was 18 amps again a shunt installed but I think they have much more potential for currrent than the magic controller. these would probably work better with A123 cells or Lipo as the regen at high rpm could get high volatges betwwen the shunt and the fets the reason why short battery leads and a 40 amp shunt with some higher than 5C recharge cells would make it more plausable.
They didnt like bad battery connections with regen enabled. The smallest loss of contact to the pack and it was over. I loved the regen off the throttle but I wished it could be implemeted off the brake switch. Both variable and and brake activated regen would be awesome.
It uses the IRF2807 fet rated at 58 amps continuous but 80 amps past the package. 4 per channel, meaning that any one phase could handle 116 amps.
They can do 20 amps at 160 degrees C and 40amps at 137 C and they are very well cooled so I prolly guess you would get 50 amps easy out of these. Even though the fets are rated overall lower than the MC fets the derating factor and heat management is much better.
Yes you will prooly find a few still working if the owners made there configuration right and diabled LVC through that damed relay inside better still remove the relay.
Hey they say LVC is controll through the program I think this controller has been changes since we used them.
-
Hi Leslie.
Actually do you know what would be great? If the variable regen could be used off the throttle like this, normal twist for acceleration and forward twist for variable regen. That means you would be able to free wheel or use regen!
I think the vectrix electric scooter is set up like that? I would love a lithium vectrix ;D
-
Yes I see how that could be good.
Let go of the throttle and it springs back to 0 throttle with freewheeling, a small twist in the reverse direction and you get regen, nice. Limiting the rotational angle for regen would suit the application well as all that throttle work could become just as annoying as trying to balance acceleration and regen like one has to do with the GM black controller. I think if the regen was just like the GM black controller but only worked when applying brakes with all freewheeling still happening unless the brake are applied would be nicer. Or even variable regen straight off the brake lever would be OK, you just need to adjust your v brakes off to compensate for the added braking power regen applies.
-
Actually do you know what would be great? If the variable regen could be used off the throttle like this, normal twist for acceleration and forward twist for variable regen. That means you would be able to free wheel or use regen!
I originally suggested this idea almost 12 months ago, but nothing ever came of it. (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_sad_230608.GIF)
Yao,
I know you're all very busy at the moment, but I wanted to make some suggestions, which your technical guys at GM might want to think about:
Would it be possible to modify speed controllers (Magic Pie included) to allow variable regen?
This could be controlled either by using an additional thumb throttle to control the amount of braking, or preferably with a purpose made bi-directional (dual action or two-way) twist throttle.
It should be easy enough to accomplish using twin hall sensors and 4 wires instead of 3 and would obviously need to spring back to the mid position when released.
Simply twist backwards for throttle, or twist it forward for variable regen braking. (Or to operate reverse when you're already stopped.)
I think this would be far better than the existing "All or Nothing" regen, especially with smaller wheels when regen braking can sometimes be too much. (Or on a dual motor setup).
The cruise control could also be modified to also give a constant braked speed using variable regen braking.
If your cruise speed was set at 15mph, regen would automatically cut in if this speed was exceeded on downhill stretches, instead of simply stopping the power to the motor, which I presume is the current method. (No pun intended!)
A dual action throttle could be used for forward and reverse without the need for a separate switch, and could also allow a conventional "twist back to accelerate" action, if it is fitted on the left hand side of the handlebars. (i.e. when twist type gears are already fitted on the right)
If it is possible, it would be nice to see it incorporated.
Does anyone else think this might be a useful improvement?
I'd like to have your opinions and/or suggestions.
Alan
I still think the regen should be implemented into the cruise function, and the two buttons on the switch control unit should work on a dual role basis:
With cruise mode turned off, the green button would initially Set the cruise speed, or the red would Resume cruising at the last set cruise speed. During cruise mode, the buttons would then be used to either Increase or Decrease the cruise speed as required.
(Most car cruise control systems have this feature.)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1rL_ktsa45WBSthTYSke69frTpdsdsyWuGKZYYVDA_IvgfYc&t=1&usg=__EmsLMqAwB6-wsM6tVoVuvPUBSyY=)
The Resume function would be very useful to get you back to the last set cruise speed again after slowing down for junctions etc.
Alan
-
A very good idea indeed Alan.
First I would like GM to start making different controllers with various outputs, (higher than 20 amp) and have a cycle analyst connector so one could increase or decrease amps without a laptop while out and about!
It would be nice if they started making controllers again in the old style casing, much easier to mount, in my opinion anyway.
-
A very good idea indeed Alan.
First I would like GM to start making different controllers with various outputs, (higher than 20 amp) and have a cycle analyst connector so one could increase or decrease amps without a laptop while out and about!
It would be nice if they started making controllers again in the old style casing, much easier to mount, in my opinion anyway.
Oh oh oh.
The net books they got now would be awesome...
Gm have said they do speshal ordas. I think.
LOl. I think I remember if you can get in communication with the sales team there you can request some things to be setup on the controllers within reason.
Maybe if you want a 24v to give the full 50 amps they can do this. That's still rated to the motors they sell.
-
LOl. I think I remember if you can get in communication with the sales team there you can request some things to be setup on the controllers within reason.
Maybe if you want a 24v to give the full 50 amps they can do this. That's still rated to the motors they sell.
Full 50 amps on their 6 fet magic controller? I doubt it very much,
At the end of the day I had to take my business else where and found a new 40 amp controller with a switch, and a cycle analyst connection, I'm sorry GM (or rather I'm not ) but you left me no choice!
-
LOl. I think I remember if you can get in communication with the sales team there you can request some things to be setup on the controllers within reason.
Maybe if you want a 24v to give the full 50 amps they can do this. That's still rated to the motors they sell.
Full 50 amps on their 6 fet magic controller? I doubt it very much,
At the end of the day I had to take my business else where and found a new 40 amp controller with a switch, and a cycle analyst connection, I'm sorry GM (or rather I'm not ) but you left me no choice!
I think thats how the ratings go.
Every controller can do 24 to 48v so they are all rated at 50 amps max. Well this is what I assume.
Think about the pattern we see. 48v at 25 amps cont is 960watts. 30 amps max is 1400 watts. Doable.
36v at 27 amps = 1000 watts cont, at 38 amps max 1400 watts max.
24v at 41 amps cont = 1000 watt cont at 50 amps max, 1200 watts max.
Every time you go up 12v, one amp = 12w.
48v*35A= 1680 watts max. Man you must of been eating mounds of earth on the hills.
Remember the Fet can do 120 amps at 10v so 50 amps at 24v isnt too much different.
Oh and yeah you are a greedy one for performance. ;D
I really don't think the GM controllers are going to do what you want in the long run. God speed.
Mind if I ask what controller you got. Sounds awesome.
-
Hi Leslie,
Wasn't the magic controller supposed to do 30 amps continuous? Mine only touched 22 amps but certainly 20 was all It could supply for any length of time!
Yeah I got the taste for power, ;D I really prefer monster torque to speed. 24-27 max is really good enough, I mean what's the point of a faster setup if it slows down a lot on the hills. It ends up being just as fast or maybe faster with more torque I think?
I would love to read a review of the external Pie and BMC V3, all with the same controllers and battery, weight etc! But so far no one has done a review of them both. If someone could do a video with them climbing hills and on straights that would be great. However I'm not going to spend money on another wheel now LOL, unless someone makes me a donation ;D
I got the 40 amp Infineon controller from ebikes.ca and also the direct plugin cycle analyst (am I allowed to post another dealer here) ?
anyway I got the 10 watt led light and they supply a connection lead from the cycle analyst for the light, prety cool. :)
I got a few andersons and some of those little connectors for the hall sensors, throttle etc, so I can match it all to my current kit.
I think the ability to adjust the current there and then will be most useful. If I want range over power etc. They told me they have cruise also. I think if you hold the throttle in any position for a few seconds, it activates cruise.
I have spent vast amounts of money on this bike, but at the end of the day it will work the way I want it to!
-
Hi Leslie,
Wasn't the magic controller supposed to do 30 amps continuous? Mine only touched 22 amps but certainly 20 was all It could supply for any length of time!
Yeah I got the taste for power, ;D I really prefer monster torque to speed. 24-27 max is really good enough, I mean what's the point of a faster setup if it slows down a lot on the hills. It ends up being just as fast or maybe faster with more torque I think?
I would love to read a review of the external Pie and BMC V3, all with the same controllers and battery, weight etc! But so far no one has done a review of them both. If someone could do a video with them climbing hills and on straights that would be great. However I'm not going to spend money on another wheel now LOL, unless someone makes me a donation ;D
I got the 40 amp Infineon controller from ebikes.ca and also the direct plugin cycle analyst (am I allowed to post another dealer here) ?
anyway I got the 10 watt led light and they supply a connection lead from the cycle analyst for the light, prety cool. :)
I got a few andersons and some of those little connectors for the hall sensors, throttle etc, so I can match it all to my current kit.
I think the ability to adjust the current there and then will be most useful. If I want range over power etc. They told me they have cruise also. I think if you hold the throttle in any position for a few seconds, it activates cruise.
I have spent vast amounts of money on this bike, but at the end of the day it will work the way I want it to!
Yeah good stuff I might try out the controller you got too.
But hey Look at what I just ordered from GM Canada.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3019;image)
Mwahahaha. SIcK
Though I'll see if I can make my 2 MP internal controllers do the trick. I really wont care too much about maxing current as I don't have the slow you down hills you talk of.
I hope I can get at least 20 amps continuous out of it out of the box.
-
2 Magic Pie kits? OMG that will be heavy, Are you putting it all on the one bike?
Would you not have being better to buy the external ones? or one and use a stronger controller? Anyway you will be able to wire them for external controllers no problem!
Good luck Leslie!
Okay I better dash, have to pick My girlfriend up from the airport. Wouldn't she die if I arrived at the airport on my eike with a trailer on the back LMAO oh the thoughts. Id want a trailer full of batteries to get me the 120 miles ::)
-
Two bikes or one spare. Which ever comes first.
Nah Gary had $50USD off per Pie coupons and they were the 26" internal controllers only. $100 off made it all possible to get two. SO I almost got the internal controllers free anyway.
I gots all that delivered to my door for $813USD. Pretty good value I think.
-
I'm back now, was nice to have the house to myself for a while, nice to have her back though ;)
Leslie that was a good deal alright . When do you expect it to be delivered? It will have a nice journey to get to you down there! I have no idea when I will get my new controller, but I can't wait. It even has a switch on this one, so I don't have to play with relays or voltage regulators ;)
You will be happy with a dual pie setup I bet. I will be interested to know what amps each of your internal controllers will pull!
Has anyone ever thought of some kind of step up regulator to up the voltage from say 48v to 72 volts? Stepping up the voltage is not a problem I bet, it's the current handling and the power consumption of the converter? It would be cool though! 100 volts through my Pie, MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
-
I'm back now, was nice to have the house to myself for a while, nice to have her back though ;)
Leslie that was a good deal alright . When do you expect it to be delivered? It will have a nice journey to get to you down there! I have no idea when I will get my new controller, but I can't wait. It even has a switch on this one, so I don't have to play with relays or voltage regulators ;)
You will be happy with a dual pie setup I bet. I will be interested to know what amps each of your internal controllers will pull!
Has anyone ever thought of some kind of step up regulator to up the voltage from say 48v to 72 volts? Stepping up the voltage is not a problem I bet, it's the current handling and the power consumption of the converter? It would be cool though! 100 volts through my Pie, MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
I can do that booster. You convert current into volts, But inductor for 50 amps 48v, to 30 amps 72v approx would need and inductor, capacitor and controll circuit almost the size of and weight of the other cells to make more volts.
Fortunately and idea like that remains pratical, as you can get good efficiency for voltage boosters. They become more efficient the harder you push them. Like the a 12v to mains inverters. Over 90% efficiency can be had to the conversion.
Use a 72v brushed controller with PWM output, you put a high amp diode and an inductor in boost circuit orientation and adjust the voltage with the brushed controller throttle wires with duty cycle. Another pipe dream of mine ! The brushed controller has been used before as a power transmission device for battery packs with longer power cables.. It improves efficiency. I haven't seen someone use the PWM and inductor over the output though.
We do have some fun in this thread of yours. ;D
-
Hi Leslie,
Yes we do have good fun here and also good dreams LOL. ;D
But yes, a converter would be nice, a switch on the handlebars and then you have turbo! ;D It kinda makes the star, delta thing seem much easier, apart from all the wires and relays and switches. I wonder if there would be much of a speed benefit by using 72 volts with the pie? or would it just make it more inefficient ?
-
Hi Leslie,
Yes we do have good fun here and also good dreams LOL. ;D
But yes, a converter would be nice, a switch on the handlebars and then you have turbo! ;D It kinda makes the star, delta thing seem much easier, apart from all the wires and relays and switches. I wonder if there would be much of a speed benefit by using 72 volts with the pie? or would it just make it more inefficient ?
I drew up this in about 30 mins. I havent had much time to study it. The diode polarity configuration makes my head spin so it could be wrong. Some may not be needed. but I threw them in just for the sake of it.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3023;image)
Its just a theory as you prolly better to build your own switcher with an IC with feedback control so you can make the voltage stable at different loads.
You could control boosting at the brushed throttle. Hmm even build a feedback control with a transistor so when the voltage rises high it reduces the PWM from the brushed controller,
It gives a good idea about whats involved though.
efficiency should be fine as long as it used for turbo, meaning its designed for intermittent use and scaled for a defined purpose not for continuous use.
You need a big toroid for low to mid range khz switching. Maybe epoxy 10* 5amp yellow iron powder toroids stack into one core and coil some big AWG copper around them.
The cap is expensive. Like I got 4 22000uf 100v caps here. I havent done the math for the caps but these are worth $100+ dollars each.
So maybe the bigger series batteries are cheaper than this.
-
I am sure Leslie, you will be modding at least one of your pies really soon LOL ;D
-
I am sure Leslie, you will be modding at least one of your pies really soon LOL ;D
Nooooo!
Ive just done my tax cheque well and true. I want to get on my feet and get some parts before I do anything like that. I like to be in the safe zone before taking any risks.
I might get your Infineon for a spare in a few weeks. Then I might do some modding. ;D
I know I am boring but I like to enjoy my pie before I burn it.
-
Why didn't you get the external controller pies Leslie? I know you won't be able to resist modding and you will only have to go to the trouble of running wires, but hey, I suppose that's the fun part. :)
I hope I don't have much trouble matching hall and phase wires, though there is good info on the ebikes.ca site about differen't configs.
These are questions that has been confusing me for a while.
Do you automatically get more torque if you increase battery voltage. I know speed goes up, but do you get more torque too?
And also, does your range increase with more voltage? I know it does with more amps, but would a 72 volt 15 amp give me the same (or more) range as my 52v ping?
-
I got the internal controllers because they were on special.
I need the bikes to work, we have no public transport to speak of so it costs me $20 cab fare just to get bread and milk.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/triplets.jpg)
These are my little devils, sometime the wife or I really need to get out away from these little darlings. The bikes are our life blood.
I just got into world war 3 with the wife today to purchase two Li Ping packs as it was her tax cheque that paid for all this. The GM packs were not going to do up to 3 full cycles a day and make through to the next year.
My wife loves to go on 30+ km trips and trail home our 60kgs of goods home, So the 24ah SLA's at $110 each were lucky to give us 6mths.
I feel ashamed I didnt buy the GM packs being such a GM fanboi. Please don't make me feel like I need to mod, not just yet anyway. :P I didnt even get the CA I wanted..
Damned was costing us $800 a year in 24ah SLA's to what I needed to do. 48v 24ah SLA vs a 48v 12ah GM pack. I needed Lifepo4 and nothing less..
I have the HBS to mod. And when I get a spare controller and atleast one MP up and running for our needs then playing around is not so crucial.
-
Ah cute little devils they are too! ;D
Well the row was worth it as the pings are really good batteries! If I can get 30 miles full throttle, ( I still have yet to fully discharge it ) that means 1000 cycles = 30000 miles 85% capacity after 1000 ( full ) cycles. That's many years of use for me, I would Imagine, as I will not be using it as much in the winter, it's dark by 4.30 5pm anyway, and I wouldn't ride very far at night on these roads here! Now that's 1C discharge rate meaning 20 amps continuous, I'm not sure if short bursts of over 30 amps would matter much? Anyway I have yet to hear of anyone reaching 1000 cycles on LiFeP04, and there might be a chance of a lot more cycles! I can't wait for silicon nano batteries with 10 times the capacity and ultra fast charging!
I also do not understand why GM are not offering LiFeP04 with their Bike kits?
Anyway, maybe you should not mod it unless something happens as your wife might not be too happy if you burn the pie's! ;D
You will definitely appreciate the pie's pulling power, though if memory serves me correctly, at stock, the pie with internal controller was not as torquey as my 1kw conhismotor. And I lost a race with pat up the steep motorway bridge! And pat is heaver than I. Though my pie had a limit of 15 amps. Yours might be different!
Anyway I'm looking forward to your experiences with this beast of a pie! ;)
-
These are questions that has been confusing me for a while.
Do you automatically get more torque if you increase battery voltage. I know speed goes up, but do you get more torque too?
And also, does your range increase with more voltage? I know it does with more amps, but would a 72 volt 15 amp give me the same (or more) range as my 52v ping?
You get the torque that is in the new speed hit with higher voltages, meaning where you have speed say at 36v gong 35kph, you have no torque at 45kph do you? torque doesn't exist above 35kph with 36v. When you upgrade to 48v, there is now torque between 35 kph and 45 kph.
Respectively not much torque gains with volts, Remember you don't multply any volts and amps for torque as this is watts, but IMO its addition.
My theory is that torque can be in the speed that higher volts has.
With more winding around your cores or more coils per phase, volts (energy) can transfer into torque. It depends on your motor.
Besides,
If the bike is not running at optimum voltage not enough energy is transferred along the entire power train. Resistance can impede the amps.
The question becomes answered with this hypothesis.
100 amps at 1 volt, 100 watts, has no torque worth anything.
100v at 1 amp, 100 watts is pretty useless too. but you just might get some speed happening.
Energy puts worth to power and power puts worth to energy.
Say if your entire power train impedance was 1 ohm and you volts was 48v.
48v/1=48 amps.
at 24v
24/1 = 24 amps.
Which one will have more torque?
I think the Pie offers more torque at higher volts. Not just by ohm laws either. by newtons law when you see the length of the Pies pulling arm,
The Pie phase coil length as we have said has a long pulling arm that can make you volts behave as torque.
The range increase question is easy.
Say a 36v 20ah battery limited to 20 amps goes for 1 hour at 36kph
And a 48v 20ah battery limited to 20amps goes for 1 hour at 45 kph
Which one travels further in the hour. The 48v battery.
It translates different in real world applications with wind resistance and so on, but you get my point.
-
Another spanner in the works of the 2d model theorists torque model is. Ebikea.ca simulation.
If torque is KG force per meter
Use one of the resistances torque needs to over come on a powered vehicle. Wind not just the bike moving. But blowing wind in the trees wind.
Wind asserts KG against the rider,
a 48v 20 amp motor overcomes the wind at 42kph. Travels more meters against wind kg. = more meters per load KG than a 36v motor.
Higher volts at the same current travels further.
load 10kg against a wheel that travels 1 meter.
load 10 kg against a wheel that travels 3 meters.
The wheel that travels 3 meters has to push more force against 10kg to travel 3 meters. Does it not?
The new letter to the science is K and many are falling over themselves to understand it. My theory is that K does not exist and those who believe this doctrine are not seeing torque as it hides behind a myriad of many other resistances we often do not apply in simple modeling.
So cant explain it perfectly in 2d or 3d because we live in 7D, origin theory states we live in an eternity of eternities branching out from one point..
So sleep deprivation has taken its toll, and my mind is starting to wander randomness.
You can touch stars they say are dead. They say its gone, then they too are just faded images of light in the distance. If you can see it, just like the man across that road you walk along, and if our arms are long enough to embrace, and they travel fast enough to there before his light fades from our eyes, you can touch it.
I you can believe this, you can reach any star.
Synaptic break down pushes me to sleep.
Night Scorpion.
-
Well I can understand that higher volts means more speed = more distance travelled. If I'm getting it right?
I wish now that I had a 72v ping, but hey, I just want to enjoy my bike now, and 24-26 ish mph is good enough. I hope my controller arrives by next weekend! I presume they notify you and give you a tracking number when it's all shipped out. But Really I only placed the order on Sunday, and Vancouver is 8 hours behind, so they didn't get it until late Monday evening my time which is GMT.
-
Basically what is common belief, more amps makes more torque, and more volts makes more speed. Then some try to understand why more volts gets more speed because AMPS = more torque.
Confusion sets in trying to explain more speed so theorists, as everything is a theory in physics, invented a new unit called K, Which is really torque.
So I say that more volts gives more torque but other will argue that it is K.
The K unit does work, But its strange I can discuss motor physics in entirety using the magnetic density/intensity Amps/volts theory converting to torque with no missing data..
Energy gives substance in mass over time, even though particle density may not be present in in high volume yields. High energy (volts) still can sum to magnetic torque when resistant forces "inertia" manifests from a centre point load and levered from a radium distance squared * 22/7.
We talk of 3D models is 4/3 * pi * r3 better defined by 4/3 * 22/7 * r3 magnetic radiation is 3d in nature.
Maybe we should call our new motors a Magic PI. Motor physics we use is more linear to astrophysics. But in essence the world of magnetism is not flat.
-
If there's no air resistance, no resistance in the bearings, no resistance in the tyres and so on there's more speed with higher volts. But if you make higher volts from a battery you have less amps and therefore the resistances probably makes the bike slower. What takes you forward is the total amount of energy. I have now a frog style battery pack from GM and the voltage from that pack is far more stable under stress than my old lead batteries and therefore the top speed has increased despite the fact that the unloaded voltage is the same.
Peter
-
If there's no air resistance, no resistance in the bearings, no resistance in the tyres and so on there's more speed with higher volts.
Peter
Perfect. Discount all resistance, physical and electrical and inertia too and one could travel faster than the speed of light forever on a 1v pack in the blink of an eye.
Ion engines in space use so little torque against inertia but can get up to awesome speeds over long distances and time, weight and inertia is the bottle neck to super fast acceleration..
But!
Why does more volts equate to less amps? It doesn't, by ohms law at least..
Please read on.
Voltage / Resistance = Amps (I).
Yes more cells = more resistance to amps but not by voltage/resistance.
Say a 20ah Li-ion 3.8v cell block = .012 ohms
___________
10 cells for a 36v pack
10*3.8v = 38v
10*.012= .12ohms
V/R=I
38v/.12ohm= 316amps
A dead short with a 500 amp rated cable over this pack with no shunt or impedance's, will allow 316 amps
___________
13 cells for a 48v pack
13*3.8v= 49.4v
13*.012=.156 ohms
V/R=I
49.4v/.156 ohms=316.666 Amps
A dead short with a 500 amp cable over this pack with no shunt or impedance's, will allow 316.666 amps
Voltage must always overcome resistance or else no battery or electronics would ever work.
You would melt and make fire at these low resistances and current flow. You would literally require a very fat conductive power line with 0 resistance to achieve this pack output amperage. But it is theoretically plausible.
There is a waste of watts with higher physical resistances and electrical resistance of batteries with volts and this will decrease range, but more increase of range is had by the added speed the volts gives you per AH.
Aerodynamics, ultra low friction bearings, slick hard tires, good electrical components, low resistance power cables and switches, better adjusted brakes systems, low magnetic cogging, Smooth flat grade terrain, can all hand back range via speed gains in leaps and bounds..
I do hope those who read this thread takes the time to try understand this post, as it took me time to formulate and is one of my best posts on this subject so far.
-
Hi Peter,
Did you get all your kit yet? is it all together?
Mark
-
Yes
Peter show us your new ride. Maybe link us to some pictures. I think those froggies are new on the shelf... They should give you plenty of love.
Leslie.
-
I got the kit today and the Swedish customs took an additional 700 kr ($100). But I will not complain as this is the rules of importing and most of the packages passed them by.
The frog style battery pack is mounted on my winter bike and has only been tested for a short trip as it is studded tyres on her. She will also have a new rear tyre for the winter to come, but this just hangs over the handle bars so far. It will probably be done in a hurry when the snowing already started.
For my summer bike project I’ve ordered things from Canada, USA, England, China and Sweden. I have spent a lot of money and have nothing to ride on yet, but I almost got it all now. My original plan was to build my own frame but I found the most beautiful bicycle (in USA) and it saved me some work but made a large hole in my wallet. The battery is a Ping (from China) and the CA is bought from GM (in Canada).
Just as I suspected was the rim on the MP to narrow so I’ve already got my new rim (from England). I was also suspecting that the spokes wouldn’t fit on the new rim and I’m sorry to say I was right even here. Tomorrow I’m going to borrow a large slide-calliper at my work to measure the difference between the two rims and order new spokes (from Sweden). So I will have to wait for the new spokes before I can get going.
In time there’ll be pictures.
Peter
btw great post that last one Leslie
-
I got the kit today and the Swedish customs took an additional 700 kr ($100). But I will not complain as this is the rules of importing and most of the packages passed them by.
Just as I suspected was the rim on the MP to narrow so I’ve already got my new rim (from England). I was also suspecting that the spokes wouldn’t fit on the new rim and I’m sorry to say I was right even here. Tomorrow I’m going to borrow a large slide-calliper at my work to measure the difference between the two rims and order new spokes (from Sweden). So I will have to wait for the new spokes before I can get going.
In time there’ll be pictures.
Peter
btw great post that last one Leslie
Charge you $100 for them to implement laws, That like a fine when you have not done anything wrong, and I suspect the MP rim is too narrow for the tires you need to use?
-
Charge you $100 for them to implement laws, That like a fine when you have not done anything wrong, and I suspect the MP rim is too narrow for the tires you need to use?
The $100 is mostly VAT and this is the second time I had to pay this in this project, but it still should’ve been more if I’d give them the correct value and I had paid for all the non-EU purchases.
The tyre is 75 x 509 an will be fitted on a 46 mm wide rim.
Peter
-
Charge you $100 for them to implement laws, That like a fine when you have not done anything wrong, and I suspect the MP rim is too narrow for the tires you need to use?
The $100 is mostly VAT and this is the second time I had to pay this in this project, but it still should’ve been more if I’d give them the correct value and I had paid for all the non-EU purchases.
The tyre is 75 x 509 an will be fitted on a 46 mm wide rim.
Peter
Yay they just trying to bring more laws in so they can skin more people for their money. The USA is corporate freedom and regulate the people in EU its regulated the business and make the business and consumer pay for the regulations.
Not fair to be honest. They just codes and regulations set in place by registered businesses themselves, not even common law. People like to learn and experiment then if the common law is broken then give punishments.
If the ebike is too fast allow it to sell and if rider endangers the public by riding too fast then place $$ fine $$ on offender I say.
Food products, agriculture and medical has reason to make tight regulations. They start a good thing and destroy it with greed. We say here "you give an inch and they take a mile".
-
Check this out!
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/merc-driver-faces-650k-speeding-fine/251881
LMAO he deserves it in my opinion. It is some shocking fine though isn't it? that's if he gets it. But that kind of carry on on the roads is really childish and shows he doesn't care about anyone else's safety on the road. He probably is barely able to handle a car at those speeds! That's fine on the autobahn in Germany as a lot of it is unlimited and you can do 300 mph if you could, legally! It is spooky but fun first time on the autobahn, 100mph in the middle land and cars flying past in the left lane. But they know how to drive over there and keep in their lanes. Not like here, middle lane hoggers at 50mph!
Peter $100 is a disgrace. Irish customs did not charge me a penny for Pie kit. Nor on my ping battery. I got charged the first kit from conhismotor on the battery, €15.00 I could live with that!
The E.U is driving me mad with their laws and taxes, regulations bla bla. However the Irish Government is worse. Anyone who has parking provided for them by their employees in the bigger cities and towns will have to pay over €250 a year tax!!! :o :o :o That's if the new legislation is passed, which it will of course. The economy is in tatters here and the Government can only increase taxes in one of the worst recessions in history, Not doing anything to provide jobs!
Don't get me started on car tax, it costs me €580 a year to tax a 1.9 diesel! (they want us driving tiny little 1.0litre 55 hp cars here) €1.29 per litre of Diesel. €1.40 for litre of petrol, And on top of that if you buy a new car there is called V.R.T a tax on buying a new car, which is calculated after the vat is already added on to the car. It costs anything up to 30% extra! Insane! grgrgrgrgrgrg
Anyway there is no way I care about a ebike that does 24mph in a 15mph lousy peddle assist regulated E.U! I don't Care!
What law next? Air tax, we will go around with a meter connected to a tube and have to pay per litre of air!!! It's getting worse. Pity they don't fix the broken roads!
okay rant over .... for now! I think I didn't get enough sleep or something last night! LOL
-
::)
I had a look at Irish states. Got as far as commissions and thats a word we know here well. They good at hiding the numbers they don't want you to know. An other vote out chairman on thrown signs the letter.
I don't have anymore time for real conspiracy. I like UFO's and Elvis is still alive stuff. The government is a smoke screen though, Always can change the man to blame and the real dolts that are the puppet master are always in power.
You have enough unrest over there without anyone outside stirring the hornets nest.
You enjoy your life, drink the wine, and let the world be the world. Any more pain that hurts the soul more than a cut is to bleed then cry aloud. Others are ready to help.
-
Hi Leslie,
I do enjoy life as best I can. And for now that enjoyment is E-biking, when it works! :D ;D ::)
My parts still are not dispatched yet! :'(
I guess I might have it at the end of next week, Hopefully. I could set up my old silver controller again, but it's a pain dis assembling it all again!
-
Hi Leslie,
I do enjoy life as best I can. And for now that enjoyment is E-biking, when it works! :D ;D ::)
My parts still are not dispatched yet! :'(
I guess I might have it at the end of next week, Hopefully. I could set up my old silver controller again, but it's a pain dis assembling it all again!
Do you really want to do all that twice for a few days of riding? Be patient and wait?.
-
Do you really want to do all that twice for a few days of riding? Be patient and wait?.
Nope I don't ;D
-
Check this out!
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/merc-driver-faces-650k-speeding-fine/251881
I would like to comment the Swedish moron that drove to fast in Switzerland. Why do it in the land with the hardest laws against this? Maybe it’s a cool thing to have the world’s largest driving ticket. Whenever I meet people whose angry they got caught I tell them that it wasn’t the worst thing that could’ve happened. Even worse are those drunk drivers.
Peter
-
I would like to comment the Swedish moron that drove to fast in Switzerland. Why do it in the land with the hardest laws against this? Maybe it’s a cool thing to have the world’s largest driving ticket. Whenever I meet people whose angry they got caught I tell them that it wasn’t the worst thing that could’ve happened. Even worse are those drunk drivers.
Peter
people with money think they can buy their way out of trouble, and usually they can. This fine may be unbelievable to most of us. But to him it is probably like a few hundred to us! I believe if that happened in Ireland you would end up in court and maybe loose your license.
-
A few years ago I was prosecuted for speeding on my bike when I was captured by a mobile speed camera shortly after I was almost hit by a lunatic driver.
Here is part of the letter I wrote to the court explaining the circumstances:
Whilst I am not trying to excuse my speeding, I would just like to explain how and why it occurred.
On Sunday 27th August 2006 I was travelling Northbound on the A380 on my way to the Motorcycle show at Westpoint. I was overtaking in the outside lane of the dual carriageway when a light blue convertible, with it’s roof down (Possibly a BMW or Mercedes), suddenly came past on my offside, missing me by barely a couple of inches. I was in total disbelief at what had just happened and I instinctively accelerated in order to catch up with this lunatic driver. I was unaware of how fast I was travelling, because I was busy trying to catch up with the driver who had just cut me up, and I did not take my eyes off the road ahead in order to look at the speedometer.
I eventually managed to catch up with the car because it suddenly slowed right up and pulled over into the left hand lane. I rode alongside the car and gave the driver a piece of my mind before continuing on my journey.
I cannot remember the registration number of the car, but I recall the digits on the rear number plate had been spaced incorrectly in order to be read as words.
Hopefully this car will also have been captured by your camera and my explanation can be verified by the officer/s monitoring the camera.
Fortunately for me, when my case went to court, the evidence from the speed camera had actually captured the car I had described, and this was even pointed out to the court by the prosecuting officer as he read my letter to them.
Here is one of the pictures from the speed camera which was presented as evidence against me:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Bikes/Speedcamera-1.JPG)
I explained to the court that this was my first motoring offence and I had held a clean license for over 28 years. I was convicted for driving at 105mph (169km/h) and fined £110.00 plus had to pay £35.00 costs (approx $226.00) and also received 6 penalty points on my license. :(
But like Peter said, it could have been a lot worse. I don't even want to consider the outcome if me and my 19 year old son had been knocked off the bike at 70mph by this lunatic driver.
I know it was wrong to chase after him, but it was an automatic response to what I can only describe as a near death experience.
If you've never been in a situation like this before, you will not be able to understand quite how much it affects you! ;)
But I shouldn't really complain, because neither my son or myself were physically harmed from this experience and we're still around today to recall the incident!
Alan
-
Yeah something that that rich speed freak should get is a 1000 hours community service in a hospital. I used to work in as a trolleyman in a large Sydney hospital, we would wheel em down to the morgue. Many stank of alcohol.
Speeding is a drug not unlike amphetamines, adrenalin, what's the difference?
Alan your story brought tears to my eyes. I don't cry when I'm sad. I only cry when I'm happy, one of my other weirdness's.
I am happy for you and your son. 8)
-
Well at least you fought your case, Alan, and just didn't role over! It's a dangerous place out there for Bikes!
I had a head on back in December 2002, I was 22. It was Christmas week and I was in a mad rush to get to my other job, Boss was yelling, customers were yelling at me. I was driving on a bad road behind 4 cars, overtook there was a slight dip in the road and I saw another car coming for me I hit the brakes, wet road couldn't stop, No abs, traction, no hope of stopping. I couldn't go through the ditch because there was a bank there so That was that in those few seconds feels like an eternity, all I could think of was not letting it end like this. Then the crazy loud bang as I hit her around 50 mph. My van, a Volkswagen Caddy hit her peugeot and the two of them bounced off each other. All I could see was her air bag and no movement, I was terrified hoping she was ok and she was. And so was I. We were both shaken up for sure. I was dizzy and disorientated for a few mins. Maybe it was the shock. I was shaking on the way home. The next day I got out of bed and hit the floor in pain, whiplash, aches and pains all over. It's amazing how you tense up just before an accident. It's amazing how the van was not broken up a lot more, and I had no airbag. Van drivers always get the less safe vehicles to drive, why is that? There is always much less safety equipment than in cars. It's better these days, but could be a lot better!
Anyway I was taken to court, the superintendent wanted to do me for dangerous driving, but my solicitor laughed and said that's not going to happen. And it didn't, thank god. He said the judge will have no time for me if I was out at the weekend, or drunk, the fact that I was on my way to another job and I was working and didn't cross a continuous white line went in my favour. I got done for a lesser charge of driving without due care and attention, My insurance went to €3500 per year for the next 5 years. It was my van and insurance!
I know it was my fault and I admitted so, well it was kinda obvious when my van was stuck in another car on the wrong side of the road lol ;D I'm alive to tell the tale and I am much more cautious now indeed! The pressures of bosses really can put a strain on your ability to drive within limits and obey the laws, especially when your boss is an abusive bully! You see what does someone do when they are threatened with the sack if they can't get to jobs. I had to cover 200 miles a day for them assholes and work 6 days a week, up at 5am every day. Pressure wasn't the word. There should be more laws to protect drivers from that kind of abuse, even if they had sorted out some kind of route that was manageable in the day! but hey I was still the driver and that's that really, I had a choice, get there or face discipline.
I wouldn't mind only they didn't even ask was I okay after the accident, they didn't contact me only to ask was I coming back and if not then they will find someone else. I explained that I needed to get the cash together to get another van, they gave me a week. That was nice of them lol.
Anyway I stuck it for another 4 and a half years. It was a job after all. In the end I told them to stuff it and ended up getting redundancy money, but that's another story! I guess you could say I got them ion the end! ;)
-
Alan. I rode a mc for several years and came across lot of lunatics so I know what you mean. I’m not the very best driver there is but I don’t consider myself a lunatic. Didn’t they take the guy in the car?
Mark. It seems horrible to have a boss like that, hope they burn in hell.
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
It's always amazing how people like that get the promotions. I worked hard for them but it was never enough!
Anyway all in the past!
and E.V's are the future! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ok back on topic, ::)
I can't wait now for the new controller. I have spent so much on this bike. But I want to have it right! I have learned a lot and got good help on this forum!
I still want someone out there to do a test with the bmc v3 and pie with external controller. and maybe a crystalyte 5304. All with the same batteries and controllers.
-
Alan. I rode a mc for several years and came across lot of lunatics so I know what you mean. I’m not the very best driver there is but I don’t consider myself a lunatic. Didn’t they take the guy in the car?
Unfortunately I have no way of finding out, but I certainly hope they did, but I have a horrible feeling that I may have actually been blocking the camera from targeting his number plate. It seems to be locked directly onto mine in all the photos I have.
Riding a bike safely is a bit like playing chess, you have to think several moves ahead and try to predict all moves that the opposition may make. When crossing junctions, you must never assume that other drivers have seen you and are waiting for you to go past, as if they haven't they will often pull out right in front of you.
I always ride with my lights on dip beam during the day, but even still they either don't notice you, underestimate how fast you are actually travelling, or misinterpret the reason for your lights being on. I once had a driver pull out in front of me and I only just managed to brake quick enough to avoid hitting him, when we stopped at the next set of traffic lights I asked him why he had pulled out right in front of me (or words to that effect ;)) and he simply replied "I thought you'd flashed me to let me out!" ::)
Another time, I was riding across a big roundabout and noticed a car entering the roundabout and heading towards me (presumably he hadn't seen me) I instinctively wound the throttle fully open and quickly accelerated out the way and off the roundabout. It wasn't until I got home that I discovered just how close I had come to being knocked off. The lower corner of my aluminium rear number plate had actually been bent back and had scrapings of paint on the back of it!
(Another close shave)
With idiots like these on the road it's very easy to understand why insurance premiums keep on rising every year.
Alan
-
Hi Peter,
Did you get all your kit yet? is it all together?
Mark
Yes
Peter show us your new ride. Maybe link us to some pictures. I think those froggies are new on the shelf... They should give you plenty of love.
Leslie.
I wonder which is worst, the cost or the wait. I’d assumed that the spokes wouldn’t fit on my new rim and I was right. What I didn’t expect was the difficulty to find spokes with the right length. The hub is drilled for 13g spokes but the rim can’t handle these nipples so I had to find 13g/14g butted spokes with 97 mm length (I really hope I have measured them correctly). The shortest I found was 100 mm and they weren’t close to the EU. One US supplier didn’t have a length limit at all so I ordered from them (hope they can do it). The spokes weren’t so expensive but unfortunately the shipping cost doubled the price so there goes another $50.
Peter
-
I wonder which is worst, the cost or the wait. I’d assumed that the spokes wouldn’t fit on my new rim and I was right. What I didn’t expect was the difficulty to find spokes with the right length. The hub is drilled for 13g spokes but the rim can’t handle these nipples so I had to find 13g/14g butted spokes with 97 mm length (I really hope I have measured them correctly). The shortest I found was 100 mm and they weren’t close to the EU. One US supplier didn’t have a length limit at all so I ordered from them (hope they can do it). The spokes weren’t so expensive but unfortunately the shipping cost doubled the price so there goes another $50.
Peter
Hi Peter,
I know how you feel. For me I think waiting is the worst of all. It takes things a long time to get here!
-
I wonder which is worst, the cost or the wait. I’d assumed that the spokes wouldn’t fit on my new rim and I was right. What I didn’t expect was the difficulty to find spokes with the right length. The hub is drilled for 13g spokes but the rim can’t handle these nipples so I had to find 13g/14g butted spokes with 97 mm length (I really hope I have measured them correctly). The shortest I found was 100 mm and they weren’t close to the EU. One US supplier didn’t have a length limit at all so I ordered from them (hope they can do it). The spokes weren’t so expensive but unfortunately the shipping cost doubled the price so there goes another $50.
Peter
Hi Peter,
I know how you feel. For me I think waiting is the worst of all. It takes things a long time to get here!
I have to wait up to 6 weeks for the Pie I ordered, Its on a ship. Oh well at least its on its way now.
There are worse things than waiting, like dying, or being ill, or, NO!. Wow, waiting is actually pretty high on the list of worst things. ;D
-
Hey Leslie
Good to hear your pie is on the way :D
Is this the 2x 26" ?
And sea freight? Really hope you don't have problems with customs, there is a massive crackdown on personal imports at the moment via sea freight. Might want to check with customs house just in case.
I'm not in Qld so I can't race you when you get it lol damn...
-
Hi Everyone,
I got the controller, cycle analyst and light yesterday and have it all together. I installed the controller on the front forks and it means I can access the on off switch easily! I like the fact there is no spark when I connect the battery!
The current limiting works really well and would be really useful to maximising range. I was playing around with the settings and went up to Pat's to show him the new setup. We were talking for a while and then I went for a spin. For about 2 miles I couldn't figure out why the motor would cut out and then start up again. Then I remembered I was playing with the settings and I put an 10 mph speed limit on it, so I removed it and It worked fine. So I guess the speed limiting works too. Good if the police ever stop me! ;D
I love the fact the light is powered from the cycle analyst and it is really bright! It means I don't have to remember to charge batteries all the time!
SO that's it. I think she is finally complete. Some day I will try a different battery box that is is maybe smaller. But for now it works and I am confident I won't have trouble with this controller, time will tell though! The Nights are getting longer now it's nearly dark now at 9PM so I will just go out and ride, weather dependent of course lol
I will take pics of the new kit soon.
-
Hey Leslie
Good to hear your pie is on the way :D
Is this the 2x 26" ?
And sea freight? Really hope you don't have problems with customs, there is a massive crackdown on personal imports at the moment via sea freight. Might want to check with customs house just in case.
I'm not in Qld so I can't race you when you get it lol damn...
Yes I did some research on transport company, Ive got 7 chances in 100 of not seeing my package at all.
Hopefully the arrests of certain individuals at the depo my hubs are waiting at has seen some improvements to CA postage services.. No batteries have been sent in this package so there is no questionable materials that customs could whine about, I might worry a little about the Li Ping 20ah and 15 ah packs coming soon.
I am confident that I will get everything and keep the relations in good order between myself and GM Canada.. If I have any problems the sender is my greatest ally.
I paid the remaining amount owed on the postage from GM Canada so my karma threshold should allow me receive my parcel in good order. God my Pie spends weeks on a boat travels half way around the world, I will need all the good karma I can gets.
I still owe Gary for a CA as I wasn't expecting Gary to throw that into my order. I am glad he pushed it because I will be better off knowing some data.
My wheel was tested before it was sent and I had the pick of the best most powerful motors out of 7 motors. Not every motor/internal controller is the same, some respond a little better to the throttle. I get 25 amps from my pies, This should go well with the 15ah lifepo4 pack.
I want more range and cycle life for my money as this hobby of mine has grown into a necessity, and need dictates me to use common sense in choice of products and build style. Sure! I'd love to pull 50 amps on that hill but not if I cant get my milk the next day because I popped my BMS or a cell. .
I will have to watch the regen on the ping packs the smaller 15ah Ping pack more.
More research leads me to think even Ping isnt the right battery for the MP if you want to use regen, Regen is too much for Ping packs and braking power from 8 amps my not be over practical, I wont need regen for power as I live in semi rural mostly flat terrain with little traffic, im lucky to use my brakes 5 times on my trips, I used the regen for its fantastic braking power for heavy trailer loads.
Either way I can rig something up to provide electronic braking and power.
-
Mark.
What current can you get through your coils finally?
This will make the difference as to how much current that can be freely supplied to the pie. Remember your Ping packs limitations.
These pies are performing well in convenient circumstances, reports of heat shutting internal controllers down are not unheard of.
Im going to try to make the internal controller work, then I will see how much I can push the MP under a safe set of parameters.
Regen for my new Ping packs is going to have to set very low. Ill start with 0% regen until I get the CA calibrated and reporting accurately.
Max current for the Ping 15ah pack I want to about 15A constant 18A max 15c/18m for the first month of use and I will break the pack in. It will be sweet if I am gentle when the pack is young, Then I move it up to about 18c/24m .
For the 20ah pack it will be the same 18c/24m as this bike will be more for slower use, towing and hauling long distances. Motor controller preservation is paramount.
I guess my main task to perform is make the GM MP internal controller work and work for a long time.
Mark one thing you wana watch for is regen with the Ping packs then I guess you eliminated the LVC isssue and over current protection issue with the new controller, maybe. If you can set the controller to LVC and shunt and diode and input back to your battery input you can save your fets much harshness if your controller or BMS LVCs.
-
Mark.
What current can you get through your coils finally?
This will make the difference as to how much current that can be freely supplied to the pie. Remember your Ping packs limitations.
These pies are performing well in convenient circumstances, reports of heat shutting internal controllers down are not unheard of.
Im going to try to make the internal controller work, then I will see how much I can push the MP under a safe set of parameters.
Regen for my new Ping packs is going to have to set very low. Ill start with 0% regen until I get the CA calibrated and reporting accurately.
Max current for the Ping 15ah pack I want to about 15A constant 18A max 15c/18m for the first month of use and I will break the pack in. It will be sweet if I am gentle when the pack is young, Then I move it up to about 18c/24m .
For the 20ah pack it will be the same 18c/24m as this bike will be more for slower use, towing and hauling long distances. Motor controller preservation is paramount.
I guess my main task to perform is make the GM MP internal controller work and work for a long time.
Mark one thing you wana watch for is regen with the Ping packs then I guess you eliminated the LVC isssue and over current protection issue with the new controller, maybe. If you can set the controller to LVC and shunt and diode and input back to your battery input you can save your fets much harshness if your controller or BMS LVCs.
Hi Leslie,
What do you mean the LVC issue? I can set the cycle analyst LVC, but doesn't the ping bms protect against lvc? as for regen. Mr ping told me you 20 amps regen should be ok, but must never go over 20 amps. He said a 5 amp limit with a suitable diode if regen is going back through the charge wires!
I have set the controller to 35 amp limit, like with the magic controller, only this time I don't think the controller will fry! I have no doubt the pie motors will take 35 amps or more Leslie, my biggest test was in the woods where the hills were insane, though short enough, but I did ride around there for quiet a while and had no issues! The motor was barely warm after such riding! Again I'm not sure many people will be riding up hills like I was because some of them were quiet steep and dangerous, and required a little peddling. The problem was I could not build up much speed because I would have got thrown from the bike, so as a result the motor was mostly at the speed where it was pulling a lot of current, and I would imagine not typical of anyone's daily commute, or even fun! However if you are pulling heavy loads constantly it may be a different story! Leslie I would imagine you will have to mod the pie's internal controllers as you won't be getting 30 amps from them! If you do choose to mod, then I would disable regen altogether as I believe this makes controllers heat up even more!
The cable I am using for the phase wires is fantastic, the insulation is incredibly thin. It's 12g and even in the woods it has not even got warm!
I might increase the current to 40 amps this weekend and see how I get on. The ping battery has no issues supplying peaks of 60 amps but will trip over that. It really was money well spent. I have not fully discharged it yet and have now 300 miles or more on it. So it should take me a good 30,000 miles or more if not full discharges. That's incredible! I have no idea what it's capable of supplying constantly for long term. My biggest guesstimate, would be 40-45 amps constant! However that might shorten it's life. I don't think peak draws would have a very negative impact on it's life! I have no issues on charging either. All cells are still fully balanced and all lights come on at the same time!
Anyway Leslie I'm looking forward to your experiences with the pies!
-
You don't want the BMS cutting out while in regen mode and there be no path to the pack to drain regen off the fets.
Im not sure what happens when the bms cuts out, does the path to the pack get cut as well, pings diagram of the regen need another diode for the charge input, as you don't want the BMS cutting out and the motor drawing out from the charge socket.
I don't think 5 amps through the charge socket is going to be good enough for regen back to the pack.
The CA has got it. Excellent.
You want the BMS to be the last device out of the two to trigger to LVC and just get a pass diode to bypass the cA that is always connected to the pack even if the CA LVCs any regen that maybe coming back through the lines can still be dumped into the pack.. If the BMS ever cuts out your fets may take a hammering but use the CA and a bypass diode to protect your controller. The diode will only work if the CA LVCs, But the diode wont matter when your using the bike as usual.
-
Hi Leslie,
Does that mean the cycle analyst's lvc will protect the controller without having to install anything extra? and should I set it to around 41 volts? I thought the lvc was to protect the batteries anyway?
The ping should not be allowed to take no more than 20 amps regen for the 48v 20 amp battery, according to Mr Ping, I doubt if anyone would set their regen to anything more than 15 amps? The new controller I got, the regen is much weaker than the magic controller and there is no way to set it different, however it still slows me down and will reduce wear on the brake pads.
By the way the cycle analyst I have now connects directly to the controller!
-
Hey scorpion hows it goin
Did you end up using an external controller with the MP you had?
If so, what guage wire did you use through the axle? How is the current/power difference? :)
Cheers
-
Hey scorpion hows it goin
Did you end up using an external controller with the MP you had?
If so, what guage wire did you use through the axle? How is the current/power difference? :)
Cheers
Hi Monkeymagic,
Yeah I had to use a controller from a different company, It's a 40 amp, probably more peak, I have not tested it out to the max yet.
I used 12g alphawire. It's insulation is amazingly thin and perfect for fitting through the axle. Here is the link to the manufacturers site.
http://www.alphawire.com/Products/Wire/Hook-Up-Wire/EcoWire/6718.aspx
I have pulled over 2000 watts and it doesn't even get warm!
The new controller set @35 amps is really powerful. And the ability to adjust the current from the cycle analyst is a real nice feature to have!
-
Hey Scorpion,
Been following your thread and did the mod today. Man what a difference! Could I ask which controller you bought as I think I might need to do the same as Magic Pie one gets a bit hot when shunted.
Cheers
-
Hey Scorpion,
Been following your thread and did the mod today. Man what a difference! Could I ask which controller you bought as I think I might need to do the same as Magic Pie one gets a bit hot when shunted.
Cheers
Hi Spacey,
Sure I will send you a pm.
-
I'm pretty sure Mark used the 40A Infineon Controller (C3640-NC) from ebike.ca.
(http://ebike.ca/store/photos/C3640-NC.jpg) (http://ebike.ca/store/store_controllers.php)
Alan
-
I'm pretty sure Mark used the 40A Infineon Controller (C3640-NC) from ebike.ca.
(http://ebike.ca/store/photos/C3640-NC.jpg) (http://ebike.ca/store/store_controllers.php)
Alan
LOL spot on Alan, ;)
I just didn't want to post where I got it from on a GM forum! But hey, since they don't offer much in the form of powerful controllers I guess it had to happen sooner or later! BTW I love the on off switch! ;)
Sleep time now! Night
Mark
-
Im not sure if ping had the diod in the BMS or if CA has it but this is what happens to most controllers when power is cut during regen.
The motor through a switch can work as what we call in the ole times a voltage gun the inductor being a motor coil is capable of generating high energy when its magnetic fields collapse abruptly. If not met with enough resistance like the pack normally supplies the place for regen energy to be pushed into.
Ping battery should have this bypass diode for regen to bypass the BMS LVC.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3094;image)
-
This is what I just did.
I installed 3 new 12ah SLA's and hardwired a brushed bike up. Thought id share.
I get some more stuff and make those ties look neater and Ive got some tractor inner tube I can cut a whole hood out of.
I take these SLA's for a ride in about 15 mins. Do some more tubes on it.
-
LMAO I thought this was funny way to explain the Regen issue controllers have with interrupted power connections.
Alan was saying it in some other post.
-
Okay so I'll add some more to this massive ongoing topic.
Lol how about we all add like a half dozen or so of these babies, I'm sure they will fit nicely in the hub casing haha
-
Im not sure if ping had the diod in the BMS or if CA has it
The Cycle Analyst does not need a bypass diode across the shunt on the power cables because the battery voltage/current can easily flow in either direction through the CA's shunt unit.
The LVC function of the CA (and the maximum speed and current functions) are effectively controlled by simply reducing the throttle signal voltage going to the controller.
Alan
-
I don't think there is need for diodes in the ping batteries. IF regen is set to never go over say 15 amps max, then I'm sure there will not be an issue!
On my new controller 700 watts is really all the regen I will get and this will never be enough to trip ping's bms. And even going down a very large hill the battery voltage never increases much beyond 53 volts.
Maybe if you want to play it safe then sure, but I personally don't have the need? I hope I'm never proved wrong as I do have a strange habit of toasting controllers! ;D
-
So with the new Infineon controllers do you lose the 25mph speed limit that is set in the Magic Pie controllers? I can only get about 25mph maximum with the 48V 12ah Headway cells, the amps when above 15mph never really go above 15 amps even with the bridging mod so I'm pretty sure it's linked to the rpm of the wheel.
A possible reduction of amps vs rpm built into the Magic Pie external controller? Would love to cruise at 30mph which the motor and my batteries are more than capable of.
Have just completed 50 miles of hilly terrain with the mod so far, no overheating.
-
Im not sure if ping had the diod in the BMS or if CA has it
The Cycle Analyst does not need a bypass diode across the shunt on the power cables because the battery voltage/current can easily flow in either direction through the CA's shunt unit.
The LVC function of the CA (and the maximum speed and current functions) are effectively controlled by simply reducing the throttle signal voltage going to the controller.
Alan
Does all that jazz work with the MP controller? My lil brushed controller works LVC like that its cool. Maybe they should call it LVL low voltage limitation.
-
So with the new Infineon controllers do you lose the 25mph speed limit that is set in the Magic Pie controllers? I can only get about 25mph maximum with the 48V 12ah Headway cells, the amps when above 15mph never really go above 15 amps even with the bridging mod so I'm pretty sure it's linked to the rpm of the wheel.
A possible reduction of amps vs rpm built into the Magic Pie external controller? Would love to cruise at 30mph which the motor and my batteries are more than capable of.
Have just completed 50 miles of hilly terrain with the mod so far, no overheating.
Hi Spacey,
There is no speed limit on the pie, It's wound more for torque than speed. 24-25mph is the Max you will get @48-52 volts. I think if you want 30+ mph and decent torque of any motor @48 volts, then I think the BMC V3 motor is the way to go. I might wait until V4 as I believe a lot of people have trouble matching it to controllers to give decent performance. Seemingly it overheats controllers easy!
Anyway for now I'm happy with the pie's performance. I think for now 25mph is fast enough as wind can be a real pain.
The cycle analyst's speed and current limiting works well, a tiny delay but nothing really. With a 15mph and 10 amp limit I managed, with peddling, to ride for 10 miles and used 1.5 amps. So there is potential for some serious range! And the ability to change the limits while out for a ride is a real bonus! The rest of my ride home I removed the limits. I used 7 amps to do 20 miles. Oh yeah the controller has cruise too, you activate it by holding the throttle steady for 7 seconds. It can be tough to do that, but it's cruise! Not as simple as GM's button on the handlebars.
Spacey, did you buy the Magic Pie with internal or external controller?
-
the CA seems to have some good piratical functions.
Mark what were the CA limitations on the magic controller external/internal?.
And what wires are missing and what is their functions?
-
the CA seems to have some good piratical functions.
Mark what were the CA limitations on the magic controller external/internal?.
And what wires are missing and what is their functions?
Hi Leslie,
The CA I had with the magic controller was the stand alone version and I simply used it as an odometer, speedometer and battery meter. You can re- wire it for current limiting, speed etc but I found it a bit complicated! However on ebikes.ca they have lots of information on the cycle analyst.
Basically the direct plug in CA has a connection that plugs into the controller that ebikes.ca modify. That connection doesn't exist on the stand alone version. I have no idea if you can rewire the magic controller for that function. You must know the exact controller shunt value or it will not read the current properly!
This guy on ebikes.sf has this mod for the stand alone CA. But you still have to rewire your controller. Check out his site he has a cheap BMC V3 that someone can test for me! lol ;) Unfortunatly I don't think he will ship full wheel builds outside of the U.S.
http://ebikessf.com/limiter-mod-for-SACA
-
Yes I figured out what I need to do with the SA.
Apparently all types are schematically identical, its just what wires are connected to them. I can solder a plug onto my SA and make it work with CA enabled controllers.
-
Spacey, did you buy the Magic Pie with internal or external controller?
[/quote]
Yeah I got the external controller, still running strong. Pulled a peak of 90amps on take off today lol. Getting just under 0.5 amp per mile.
-
So with the new Infineon controllers do you lose the 25mph speed limit that is set in the Magic Pie controllers? I can only get about 25mph maximum with the 48V 12ah Headway cells, the amps when above 15mph never really go above 15 amps even with the bridging mod so I'm pretty sure it's linked to the rpm of the wheel.
A possible reduction of amps vs rpm built into the Magic Pie external controller? Would love to cruise at 30mph which the motor and my batteries are more than capable of.
Have just completed 50 miles of hilly terrain with the mod so far, no overheating.
Hi Spacey.
Seems you have the street legal version. You should get more than 25kph with 15 amps. You should get your speed back up with the new controller if there is nothing wrong with the motor.
You wont get 30mph at 48v from the MP as the beast is designed for more torque. Not escaping the MP's ability for higher speeds, I think the MP at higher volts the torque is going to be better and the Pie will start coming a head of the pack.
Edit:
Ohhh and I do believe the 15 amp magic controllers maybe set up for the minimotor.
-
So with the new Infineon controllers do you lose the 25mph speed limit that is set in the Magic Pie controllers? I can only get about 25mph maximum with the 48V 12ah Headway cells, the amps when above 15mph never really go above 15 amps even with the bridging mod so I'm pretty sure it's linked to the rpm of the wheel.
A possible reduction of amps vs rpm built into the Magic Pie external controller? Would love to cruise at 30mph which the motor and my batteries are more than capable of.
Have just completed 50 miles of hilly terrain with the mod so far, no overheating.
Hi Spacey.
Seems you have the street legal version. You should get more than 25kph with 15 amps. You should get your speed back up with the new controller if there is nothing wrong with the motor.
You wont get 30mph at 48v from the MP as the beast is designed for more torque. Not escaping the MP's ability for higher speeds, I think the MP at higher volts the torque is going to be better and the Pie will start coming a head of the pack.
Hi Leslie
I think Spacey did mean 25 mph, and that's the max I get too. I think from the endless sphere forum, the guys said it was very inefficient @ higher voltages, that 48 volts was it's most efficient voltage!
Spacey,
You need to turn that controller down or It will destroy the fet's, they are rated for a max of 120 amps. You would be best to remove your mod until you get a better controller! trust me I know ::)
Isn't the acceleration addictive though? It really put a smile on my face with my modded controller. ;D It still does, though the power is much more controlled now. Not quite as severe acceleration because the controller doesn't deliver the very high peaks the moddedone did.
I am sure the new controller would take 60 amps continuous as it has good irfb 4110 fet's and 12 of them at that! It's good for 84 volts which should make the pie go around 35-40 mph?
I can't wait for Leslie's review of the motors as he and his missus pulls very large loads and as a result will probably pull more amps continuously than a pie not pulling loads! Especially if he has hills!
-
I live by the foot of a mountain with a ski slope and a serpentine road up to the top. This will be a great test when my bike is on the road. The time for the test ride has again moved forward though as I have decided to order a new controller and a CA-DP instead of the original controller and the CA-SA. Look here: http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2418.0 (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2418.0)
Peter
Citizen of the Kingdom of Sweden.
-
Here she is, the almost finished bike!
Now I have to get a smaller box for the ping as this one is twice the size of the ping, and sits too far back on the rack!
I wish I could have afforded a good suspension bike, It's a pity more and more bikes are being made from aluminium, the drop outs on this bike were not very strong at all !
-
Lovely girl but where is her rear brake?
The size of the box is not a problem for the appearance but, as you wrote, it’s a little too far back. On the other hand I like women with great asses. ;D
I have bought and mounted a brake disc but still hesitate whether or not to order a caliper as I can see some problem to fit it on the frame.
-
Lovely girl but where is her rear brake?
The size of the box is not a problem for the appearance but, as you wrote, it’s a little too far back. On the other hand I like women with great asses. ;D
I have bought and mounted a brake disc but still hesitate whether or not to order a caliper as I can see some problem to fit it on the frame.
I removed the rear brake as Pat, who made me the torque arms, put one on the inside because of the rear drop outs, It's the only way he could put 2 in. I was afraid with such torque that I needed 2. Anyway, as a result the wheel is off centre and the calliper won't fit any more! Maybe in the future I will go to the pain of installing an extra washer or 2 to centre it back up. However I really don't need it as the regen along with the front brake is more than enough braking power!
I would like a smaller box for the battery. I might get some kind of sealed abs box and install the battery in it, along with some polystyrene or maybe expanding foam to keep it from bouncing around!
-
I don't know, I like the box small and the ass not too wide. You might get some better slip stream with a tighter fit. But I love her. Can I ride her too. We can take turns. :o
Just following Peters joke. ::) hehe
If your frame is steel.
(http://www.blakbirdz.com/schwinn/dropouts.jpg)
Leave your girl upside down in the sun for the morning when she gets hot to touch, spread em with your rod and nuts. When she cools down in the afternoon, remove your rod and nuts and see if you get much more clearances to fit your arm in, and a washer on the closer side to make your motor inside the centre..
Oh is the joke over yet? ???
If your frame is alloy then I wasted my post. The frame can break easily with this work if its alluminium.
Why cant you get both torque arms on the outside? Is some thing obstructing it, like the derailer? Can you please show us this issue. ??? ???
-
LMAO Leslie you naughty devil!!!
Oh I nearly peed on me laptop in laughter! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;)
I must say I do like a nice tight box myself! ;D I don't think expanding foam would be good for the box though! ::)
She's aluminium alright, it seems most of em are that now! She is a bit of a bike, loves a good ride! :D
Oh I better stop now, It's nice to get a good laugh!
I will take pics of her rear end tomorrow. ::) oh lol I just can't stop now! ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D
-
LOL
No harm in a little fun. ;D
-
I went out for a good spin today and torture tested the new controller in the woods. It only got luke warm. Happy days ;D
The motor got hot, but not too hot. I could leave my hand on it no problem! Happy days ;D
After my trek in the woods I decided to go for a long spin. It was a nice day so off I went. 20 amps used from my ping and still going. I noticed the battery voltage drop to around 46 volts, so I know I had little left. I would say for sure 20-21 amps no problem!
Happy days ;D
I don't quiet have the torque as with the modded magic controller, But hills like I have in the woods are not something most people will ever have on their daily rides. A little extra peddling brings me up to speed again very quickly, so It's not even a complaint!
My goal is to go to mount leinster. It's only 795 meters or something (2,605 feet) so I guess as mountains go, it's not so high. The last 2 or 3 miles are really really steep. I just have to find a suitable bike carrier to get me to the base of the mountain as I won't have enough abttery to get me there! Does anyone know if a normal carrier hooked to a saloon car boot will hold the weight of my bike without battery?
-
There shouldn’t be any problem with the weight. But on the other hand there are quality issues even among some bike carrier, so it depends on what type it is. On my previous bike carrier I’d welded a diagonal rod and made an extension so I could load long battens on the roof on the car. I once had so much load that there was almost no suspension left, so I think they can handle a lot of weight.
I envious you, my spokes haven’t arrived yet and I can’t order the controller and the CA as I’ve hit a limit in PayPal and have to verify my card. But these things can only be a matter of days now.
Peter
-
Does anyone know if a normal carrier hooked to a saloon car boot will hold the weight of my bike without battery?
Most carriers are designed to take two or more bikes, so they should be able to cope with yours on its own without any problem whatsoever.
Alan
-
I wonder if it would be plausible to tow a small light quite generator behind you. Well you use a car motor to get to the base of the mountain why not use a generator. Get to the base recharge, and put the generator under lock and key stook it under the bushes and shrubs and away you go.
Should be cheaper to run than a car motor and this could extend the Ebike range up to 10 times depending on your charger.
Packs can charge at 1c so I can see you getting you as far as the fuel tank is full.
Now the trouble to find a very light low power generator.
-
Yeah I found a few 1kva cheap that can do a 20 amp charge to a pack easy that weight around 25kg.
A few have done the hybrid bike thing so the idea isnt a new one.
My nets not good today we ran out of data so searching is a pain..
-
Mark good to hear you are having happy days. ;D
What amps are you getting now with the new controller?
-
Hi Leslie,
I'm getting 42 amps max continuous now. I am happy as it will climb anything, maybe the toughest bits with slight peddling to bring it back to speed. But it will still pull me up full throttle. My maths is not so good, but I estimate the steepest parts in the woods to be 45 degrees. On 35 degrees (by my estimates) it will pull me up @10mph and I am heavy at about 108-110kg. I will take pics next time I'm there.
Oh! speaking of pics I forgot to take pics of my dropouts as you requested. I will do that soon too and see if we can think of a better idea.
Regarding the generator. That is a good idea indeed. But the cheapest generators here can cost several hundred euros. Rarely Do I see AldI offer 700 watt generators for maybe 200 euros. All I need is 400 watts! Ping says the absolute max charging for his 20 amp ping is 5 amps( on the charger side ) limited by the BMS. Regen he says must not be more than 20 amps max so I think I would have to wait a long time to charge an empty battery!
The other thing is I'm not sure I would do 50 miles in one day on a mountain bike. lol who knows ;D
-
You notice Ive been watching your thread like a hawk. The data you keep spitting out here is so useful to us.
Hey that's weird. 42 amps and you feel less torque than with the GM MC at 35 amps max. Yet the motor gets warmer?
This is something I notice about GM'S general controllers, if you gets a good one they really jump out in the power department and are ultra efficient. GM do make the PWM frequency to motor winding to the optimum and what the controller gives the motor you get in power. Maybe why if something is a little bit out of whack they can fail.
You got to give GM credit for thi,s they do this part of the math pretty darn well.
Im sure the controllers you own pair very well with 9c motors or whatever they sell on Ebikes.ca
Makes me think about how I can solve this problem. I got a a number of dead GM controllers I picked up for $20 each. Some would last me a year and some wouldnt even work for a day.
The GM controllers that worked really made the Ecrazy controller feel weak in comparison. There was no weight these old regen only GM controllers could tow.
These were factory seconds my old AU GM dealer would send me to play with. No way I want to do a 12 fet swap out on those boards so I just bought another.
If the power was interrupted or a hall blew in the motor those old controllers were dead or not good for much longer.
-
Hi Leslie.
To be honest I think maybe there is less peak currents getting through?
As regarding the heat of the motor, I was having so much fun in the woods, I decided to stay there longer ;D and I have no doubt that was the cause of the heating.
I think perhaps it's the peak currents that might be limited with the infinion controller. I know you can adjust if you can find a cable to do so, and the software.
The throttle also seems a lot smoother, as if there is some king of soft start, But that could be down to leas peak current.
However this is nothing really and still has masses of torque. I just would love to know the limit of the pie before she fry's!
I'm thinking now that this controller is the way a 40 amp controller is supposed to be. It gives out a max of 42 amps constant. I must reset the peaks on the CA and see what comes up!
I have no doubt this controller could take 70 amps with a mod ;) no no no I'm not even thinking about it! That would mess up my shunt value and make my cycle analyst useless, unless I could find a proper shunt rated for 60 or 70 amps!
Anyway I might consider it when I'm hungry some day and I'm in the mood for some baked pie! ;D ;D ;D for now I'm happy as she is!
-
Hi Leslie.
To be honest I think maybe there is less peak currents getting through?
As regarding the heat of the motor, I was having so much fun in the woods, I decided to stay there longer ;D and I have no doubt that was the cause of the heating.
I think perhaps it's the peak currents that might be limited with the infinion controller. I know you can adjust if you can find a cable to do so, and the software.
The throttle also seems a lot smoother, as if there is some king of soft start, But that could be down to leas peak current.
However this is nothing really and still has masses of torque. I just would love to know the limit of the pie before she fry's!
I'm thinking now that this controller is the way a 40 amp controller is supposed to be. It gives out a max of 42 amps constant. I must reset the peaks on the CA and see what comes up!
I have no doubt this controller could take 70 amps with a mod ;) no no no I'm not even thinking about it! That would mess up my shunt value and make my cycle analyst useless, unless I could find a proper shunt rated for 60 or 70 amps!
Anyway I might consider it when I'm hungry some day and I'm in the mood for some baked pie! ;D ;D ;D for now I'm happy as she is!
Just keep in mind your ping limitation.
The irony is that you loved flogging that little 6 fet controller to death and now you gots 12 or more fets you're limited to your pack performance.
What the cont and max. That controller can do 72v ehh.
I think you will find changing resistor R01 and sticking 72V into it will really wake those fets up and the gate clamping will be so much more hair triggered.
See the fet gate legs are clamped to ground via a resistor, or resistor and zener, and so they don't get stuck on. At lower voltages, when switched off, the next trigger has to work harder to bring the fet back on, this slows the switching speed.
This also makes the controller less efficient at the lower voltages when switching is impeded in this manner.
Put the volts up to 72v, and the gate clamps that keep the fets off voltage rises on the gate, closer to the point they are almost switched on..
The plus side is, the MP IMHO will be fully efficient at 60v, wind resistance picks this off but thats to be expected at faster speeds. Some wind fairings or a low rider recumbent would with a nose cone will make the MP at 60v perfect efficient and fast powerfull machine.
Between 72v~60v is a good middle ground for both your controller and MP I would say, 72v will make the controller very responsive but then you loose a little with the MP at the top end of acceleration.
60v the controller will be better than 48v but not as good as 72v, at 60v the MP would be spot on.
I could be wrong. But Im just judging from the way my 72v Ecrazy controller would run at 48v compared to 60v. Much better throttle response at 60v I experienced.
My down fall was is my HBS wasnt going to be very efficient at 72v, and sucked at 60v as it was, Sure the bike went faster but the torque was feeble, so the sweet spot I was looking for was out of my systems grasp. Unless I modded the the fet gate clamps to do hair trigger switching at 48v at the risk of omitting the 60 and 72v operation possibility (voltage on threshold exceeds gate clamp at high volts)... I was never going to get the same performance as my GM controller designed for 48v. Something I couldn't be bothered with.
Many say the higher current only gives better torque, and this is true generally, but there are a million examples where the volts with certain gear gets the rider more torque.
When you gets rich maybe get a 24v 20ah pack and series it to your 48v pack to make your back 72v, and then report how your awesome Infineon controller goes. :P
-
Here is why I think your like happy days :)
And not wooooo hooo Oh boy. :o :o :o :o :o ;D LOL
Sorry. :-\
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3180;image)
Take a close look at where I label gate clamp. 48v is not close to being on. and 72v is like mmmm ready to go go go.
As you can see wide compatibility shouldn't show stellar performances around the board and its very difficult to get the fets to respond the same at different voltages.
Switching if it can get so slow, it can even impede the voltage amplitude and start to hit on not just torque but speed too. Instead of seeing nice squareish trapezoidal wave you can see humps at the output. This isnt great for efficiency.
The proper term for gate clamp is forward bias. But I see the clamp there so this makes sense to me. Tomato ~ Tomayto
-
This is a copied post from the endless sphere forums
Re: GoldenMotor Magic Pie.
Postby icecube57 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:25 am
Hyena wrote:Oh, and don't let the heat issues in the GMs deter you based on what icecube and I are doing - we're squeezing 5-10 times the rated power from the motors so it's not exactly normal operating conditions.
At 48v 35-45A the 48v 1000w GM has some balls to it. Its very efficent .5AH a mile at 30mph and very fast (almost licking 30-35mph). 48v is where ths motor is most efficient at. Even under load its still shines. When you start increasing the voltage past that the efficiency goes to sh!t. If you plug some figures in swblutos simulator for the GM motor on voltages over 48v on grades between 5-10% over 1/3 to 1/2 of the watts input into the motor generate heat whch makes the motor a poor choice for a commuter bike. But a 9C with the same numbers generates half as much heat vs the GM at higher voltages.
If you run the 48v 1000w GM as it was designed you will be happy. No air cooling needed. If you try to push it to the limits you will be happy but disappointed and the power consumption.
Here is another idea on how inefficent the GM is. Im doing 64v resting and 57v under load rough 10v more than 48v. My build consumes almost 1AH a mile now vs the .5AH at 48v. So by even only going 10v above 48v you already shot yourself in the foot.
Tidal S-750 (Codename:X-Force)
Crystalyte X5303 26"
Lyen Edition Controller 4110 72v 45A W/Regen W/3 speed Selection
Turnigy Lipo 72/5AH Upgrading to 10AH Eventually will get to 15AH
User avatar
icecube57
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:42 am
Location: Austell, GA
* YIM
-
I actually think the way for me to go in the future, is to down the road of geared motors. There is no way you can increase efficiency with direct drives. Meaning if I want faster speeds using the same battery. Sure they have their advantages but I think for the lowest watts per mile, geared motors are the way to go. That is of course if you want faster speeds! The only thing you can't do is really over volt or feed too much current. And of course, regen. I will wait until I see what BMC will bring out in the future, because the V3 seems to melt phase wires above 35 amps, and I don't think I would fit my lovely thin 12G wire up that axle, as thin as they are! I will wait and see.
-
OKAY LOL maybe not BMC V3
This is from ebikes-sf Another endless sphere forum member who sells motor kits.
Postby ebikes-sf » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:53 am
V3 is optimized for higher top speed (thicker magnet coil wire, less turns), about 35mph. If you're only looking for assistance on hills, and are ok with 25-30mph top speed on flats, I recommend V2 speed or torque motor, they're cheaper and more efficient.
My favorite motor is V2S. It has a little less torque then V2T at speeds below 10mph, but has higher top speed, about 30mph, and accelrates faster. I have it on my Big Dummy bike and I ofter ride with my wife on the back around San Francisco hills, 300lbs +.
For V3 motor, battery needs to support at least 35A continious, and for V2 25-30A continious.
Your 48v 20Ah battery needs to be at least 2C (2C x 20Ah = 40A) to support V3.
So maybe the pie is the motor of motors after all! ;D
The pie can cruise @48-52 volts @24-25mph on level ground and uses around 750-850 ish watts.
BMC 35 mph @ 48 volts needs 1680 ish watts. But maybe that is not so bad when you consider the speed increase, But will kill your battery twice as fast! If I was using my bike as a commuter bike and could charge at work. Then that would be the bike for me. But for a nice spin in the country, with a bit of exercise and plenty of torque for any hill, the Pie more than meets my needs!
I do wonder if they made a geared version of the pie, would you still have that wonderful torque with more top speed, and it still be efficient?
-
I think the infineon is a 72v controller modded down to 48v for use on most common packs.
Everywhere I look the infineon looks just like my Ecrazy 72v 40 amps controller. Ecrazy made mine sensorless.
Saw plenty of posts people trying to make these go well on various motors. The BMC motors. seem to be ok with them, they have shorter thicker windings and this dictates the gate clamp current to go higher and via a low voltage over the windings.
This is just an example of a typical voltage divider. no where near accurate but I made it easy to understand.
R1 R9
|www|
---www-----www--- <BMC
1v 9v
R1 R9.5
---www-----wwwwww--- <Magic pie.
.5v 9.5v
By no means this means one motor is better than the other, the two different windings have different effects not just on the amount of current they draw but the behavior of the switching at the gate.
The fet gate clamp or forward bias can not get its voltages and current from ground as it is 0v it gets it from the motor coils when the fet switch is off.
A small amount of Current is routed through the motor coils and presents its self over the resistor of the fet gate as a forward bias and clamp keeping it form staying on and also keeping close to switching on.
Sure get a BMC or get more volts. More volts will get you a lot further down the road with the MP and it will love you. And the BMC will just chew up the energy from your pack to get you that speed they get. Thats fine, as the Infineon should perform better like this.
However!
One is more battery power :D and another is a motor sitting in the corner gathering dust. Which one do you thinks is the better choice?
More power or two motors and only being able to use one on your controller?
I was happy with my ecrazy controller at 48v I lost quite a bit of torque but it did the job and was and still is reliable. at 60v it made my eyes water a little more. At 72v I think I would of been zipping.
I must admit my Ecrazy was a dedicated sensoless. and the HBS hub wasn't going to reports motor position too well at 72v, too much ciol saturation happening on take offs.. So there wasnt much in it for me to go to 72v.
You know, I would leave your bike as it is and if you get sick of it and you want more just try the mod and try 72v with two cheap 12v 12ah SLAs to see if it is what you want and the performance is better as I suspect..
Ride On mark.
Those controllers are pretty solid and there is little chance regen is going to hurt those 100v fets even at 72v. But you need to do a little more mod than just R01 to get regen working at 72v.
-
Remember the BMC nylon planetary gears isnt going to like the woods at 30 mph. I think you will get close to 40 mph with the pie at 72v
For the price of a 24v 20ah ping pack your speed and range will go up by more than 20% with a Pie. As for torque I only assume the higher voltage will be one, V/R=I and switching will be better.
The BMC will cost you the same maybe but you speed will pick up about 10%. Range may improve on flats but you loose on the slopes.
Its just a guesstimate.
-
Hi Leslie,
yeah I agree, I will keep the pie and maybe treat it to more voltage down the road. And testing with cheap sla's is a good idea. I believe more voltage can get you more range too? And that may be the same as you saying more voltage will give you more torque too! Maybe more torque and range!
I was in pats today fixing his laptop, he had a play around on the bike and he loves it. ;D
He also noticed tyre wear on the rear wheel. I have only 300-350 miles on it ;D all that torque!
Leslie, I believe that controller will do up to 84 volts. 84 volt pie! MUHAHAHAHAHAH
-
Hi Leslie,
yeah I agree, I will keep the pie and maybe treat it to more voltage down the road. And testing with cheap sla's is a good idea. I believe more voltage can get you more range too? And that may be the same as you saying more voltage will give you more torque too! Maybe more torque and range!
I was in pats today fixing his laptop, he had a play around on the bike and he loves it. ;D
He also noticed tyre wear on the rear wheel. I have only 300-350 miles on it ;D all that torque!
Leslie, I believe that controller will do up to 84 volts. 84 volt pie! MUHAHAHAHAHAH
Yeah there is that amps does more range and volts do more speed generalization some adhear too But 20 amp hours is 20 amps in one hour.
At 20 amps
20 amp hours at 48v is one hour at 45 kph.
20 amp hours at 60v is one hour at 54 kph
20 amp hours at 72v is one hour at 62 kph
See the pattern. No way you pull this amps all the ride so the range is more. I based it linearly CC 20 amps to make my life easier.
One get you 45 kms down the road and the other end gets you 63kms down the road.
Because v/r=I, if you can back the current off at the higher volts 2~5 amps you can get your range up more to some degree but it sort of works fine as the extra amps you pull at higher volts makes up for the added wind resistance.
So if you get about .8 kms range per volt at 48v and .6 at kims more range per volt at 72kph. Its not the ideal range getter but none the less the range will increase.
52v/40 amps= 1.3 ohms. 1.3 ohms is the total resistance of the whole system.
52v/1.3ohms= 40 amps ;)
63v/1.3 ohms = 48.4 amps
The added series cells are in the milli ohms range.
so lets make it 48.38 amps.
Every one that says amps gets you more torque is right especially when you put more volts in there. :P
.At 72v
You could decrease the speed via the CA back to 45 kph and your range will increase quite a bit.
increments of 12 v up.
=
72v/48 ratio.
=
6/4
= 1.5 time more range.
So if you go 75 kms distance at 48v 20 ah, 24v more volts (72v) as long as you slow the bike down to a 48v pack speed you will get 112 kms range.
Awesome.
-
Hi Leslie,
Hey that was very well explained, thanks. ;)
I never thought of it like that. Going 1 hr @ 72 volts @62KPH
I might get a 24 volt 20 amp ping next year. I spent too much now anyway and we're heading for winter!
I'm not sure I like the idea of more battery weight either. I can't wait for silicon nanowire batteries! up to 10 times the capacity for the same size! ;D I hope they become a reality, I think they allow for extremely fast charging also. Oh the thoughts. Imagine my ping 10 times smaller, or 10 times greater capacity for the same size! ;D
-
Yea a few holes in thatlast post could be patched otherwise it gave the point well enough.
Some thing refreshing.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3194;image)
I did up my switcher. I am pretty fired up atm mom full of coffee :o :o :o :o. Hand shaking and still managed to do this up with no circuit board. I could find the PCB I made up for a week ago.
Ahhh some hot glue and she be just fine.
Its sits a 3.19v and I ran 2.2 amps of super bright leds before I mounted it in the box on a 12v supply..
Now Im goinb to test it at 50v and leave it for 20 mins to see how the thermal situation is at high volts.
Thats 50v to 3.2v @ 2.2 amps and Im hoping for around 80% efficiency. Im hoping to draw around 50v 150ma and crunch it down to 3.2v and boost the current to 2.2 amps.
I will post some pics tonight of the lights running off them.
-
OMG blind spots in parts of my eyes. Im half blind as it is...
12v all good.
24v noice.
Up to 36v. mwahahaha
At all three voltages the LM2576 stays rock solid at 3.19 on load and no load. This is the the most stable Ive seen withn my LM2576 jobs.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2286.0;attach=3196;image)
I want to put a small resistor on the input before I do 50~60v even though the LM2576 is rated to 60 63v, I want this baby to last me years.
Man I need to sink the Leds. The inductor and LM2576 switcher not even warm.
-
Cool leslie
ye can't beat those led's. They are so bright. Everyone comments on mine, I'm happy enough that even in day time when it's cloudy, that I can be clearly seen on the road. Rear light and a high vis vest! There is nothing worse when you are driving along and you can barely see cyclists because they can't bother to light up! What I think is quiet dangerous also is if you driving along in sunshine and a cyclist is in the shade of trees or something in the distance, they can hardly be seen! I always ride with my vest.
I have seen HID kits for bikes too. They might give you better visibility further down the road, but I think they use more power!
I want to get a box like yours in black for my battery, I would put red led's on the back of it. And maybe a key switch and relay! I would like something that's easy open and lock! Something like that is hard to find.
It would be cool if Ping could make his batteries fit in some kind of case like GM batteries. And having the option of a slide on rack too would be cool!
-
Oh man These led are rated at 3.2v nominal to 3.8 max.
Im going to have to go up to the 3.8v mark if I want 9 watts. I think Id rather use 6 watts for noraml use and 9 watts for high beam. Or add more Leds and lessen the amount of max watt per led.
I got the plastic reflectors. so Im thinking I don't want to get too hot.
So!
I added a variable 100ohm pot in the feedback circuit of the regulator and pushed it up to 3.34 v and the difference is substantial. Im looking for sunnnies at night to work on these now.
I put a by pass to the pot so I can add a high low beam switch in there at the regulator controll. High efficient high beam controll. No clicking relays and stuff for this one. Just a little .0125 watt pot to controll so much brightness with the smallest of switches.
-
Led's are getting better all the time, it's a pity they are so expensive.
I would love to see them replace the horribly depressing yellow orange street lights, But of course they will not do so because they cost more to buy compared to 5 Euros for a sodium lamp! And I can not see that change for years!
LOL the things I think about!
I think cars in a year or so will start offering them for dipped and full beams, replacing regular halogen, but at an extortionate price you can be sure!
-
Led's are getting better all the time, it's a pity they are so expensive.
I would love to see them replace the horribly depressing yellow orange street lights, But of course they will not do so because they cost more to buy compared to 5 Euros for a sodium lamp! And I can not see that change for years!
LOL the things I think about!
I think cars in a year or so will start offering them for dipped and full beams, replacing regular halogen, but at an extortionate price you can be sure!
Ohhh yeah even my 3 watt white leds light up the street signs for 100s of meter past the motorists high beams.
I make it a point when I ride out to the rural roads and when a car drives past me I wave my hand over my humble 3 watt setup and make all the road signs flicker. Their high beams do not have the the right temperature to do this as well.
I once mixed some warm white and clear white led bulbs onto my bike it was better again. Maybe this is what I do. Get 3 more leds (warm white) onto my light and get more colours back off what they shine at. It deepens the view with a lower temperature colours added,
-
WOOOOOT.
Two Ping packs await me at the depot.
One 15 ah and another 20 ah.
I get them my project can go ahead just a little bit further.
Im going to sit them on the charger for a week before I even put a hub to them.
Depending on the Pie delivery it may be sitting on the charger for a few weeks to come.
-
Nice One! ;D
Do you think you need it on the charger for that long Leslie?
I never have had a problem with balancing and all the lights come on at the same time, so far anyway!
-
Hi Peter,
Did you get all your kit yet? is it all together?
Mark
Yes
Peter show us your new ride. Maybe link us to some pictures. I think those froggies are new on the shelf... They should give you plenty of love.
Leslie.
I wonder which is worst, the cost or the wait. I’d assumed that the spokes wouldn’t fit on my new rim and I was right. What I didn’t expect was the difficulty to find spokes with the right length. The hub is drilled for 13g spokes but the rim can’t handle these nipples so I had to find 13g/14g butted spokes with 97 mm length (I really hope I have measured them correctly). The shortest I found was 100 mm and they weren’t close to the EU. One US supplier didn’t have a length limit at all so I ordered from them (hope they can do it). The spokes weren’t so expensive but unfortunately the shipping cost doubled the price so there goes another $50.
Peter
The spokes have finally arrived, oh how I’ve longing for those. I run to my garage to start building the wheel full of anticipating. But when I opened the package there were 197 mm long spokes instead of 97 mm. They cost me €50 and the shipping was the half of that. I would be surprised if they are willing to pay for the shipping back to US and then again for the right ones to Sweden. Now it’s for sure that she won’t be on the road before the cold and rainy autumn, maybe even before the snowy winter. :'(
I’ve start wondering about if there’s some alternative to spokes. Have some ideas on wood.
-
Hi Peter,
That's bad news Peter. I know how you feel! :'( Hopefully you will think of something!
Wooden spokes is something I don't think I've seen before!
I got a nice bill from Fedex for €33.00 today. :'(
I'm not quiet sure, but I think ebikes.ca sent an invoice to fedex, with a list of the exact goods I received. WTF?
-
Check this out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6e0Xu1bTbU
2 pings in this would be really cool, and still have lots of space! ;D
-
Hi Peter,
That's bad news Peter. I know how you feel! :'( Hopefully you will think of something!
Wooden spokes is something I don't think I've seen before!
I got a nice bill from Fedex for €33.00 today. :'(
I'm not quiet sure, but I think ebikes.ca sent an invoice to fedex, with a list of the exact goods I received. WTF?
Hi Mark!
I got a request from ebikes.ca for an additional $40 on my order for shipping with Fedex. The shipping alternatives on their site doesn’t update when a choice is made and therefore no shipping alternative is sent to PayPal. After I’ve paid that $40 there’s silence, I would appreciate an order confirmation like the one from goldenmotor.ca.
Have you already paid for everything?
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
That's bad news Peter. I know how you feel! :'( Hopefully you will think of something!
Wooden spokes is something I don't think I've seen before!
I got a nice bill from Fedex for €33.00 today. :'(
I'm not quiet sure, but I think ebikes.ca sent an invoice to fedex, with a list of the exact goods I received. WTF?
Hi Mark!
I got a request from ebikes.ca for an additional $40 on my order for shipping with Fedex. The shipping alternatives on their site doesn’t update when a choice is made and therefore no shipping alternative is sent to PayPal. After I’ve paid that $40 there’s silence, I would appreciate an order confirmation like the one from goldenmotor.ca.
Have you already paid for everything?
Peter
Hi Peter,
Ya confirmation e-mail would be nice. I must have a better look at the bill from fedex, and also go back through my order. I just didn't have a minute to do anything today!
I didn't get a request from ebikes.ca asking for additional money. So I'm thinking it's just customs. I'll check tomorrow.
-
Nice One! ;D
Do you think you need it on the charger for that long Leslie?
Now that question is very deep and complex, I will try to answer it in much depth..
No! :D
The spokes have finally arrived, oh how I’ve longing for those. I run to my garage to start building the wheel full of anticipating. But when I opened the package there were 197 mm long spokes instead of 97 mm. They cost me €50 and the shipping was the half of that. I would be surprised if they are willing to pay for the shipping back to US and then again for the right ones to Sweden. Now it’s for sure that she won’t be on the road before the cold and rainy autumn, maybe even before the snowy winter. :'(
I’ve start wondering about if there’s some alternative to spokes. Have some ideas on wood.
Humbug!
I got em.
:D
Here they have 3 3/4" :D
http://www.pitmotoparts.com/product_p/pmwh3.75.htm Nice gauge too. Not sure how it will go but you get these onto you rim and you will never have another problem.
]
Ohh and this item qualifies for free shipping.
I think these extended holidays the GM chieftons seem to be impacting on the companies performance.
What just happened to you peter is not even warranty, so you need to go back to GM sales and get GM to replace the wrong spokes they sent. Prolly get no response as the Indian who served you may be too scared to admit the mistake. PR nightmare on GM street me thinks.
But is it worth the bother! I think so. Is it worth your time I think not.
-
The spokes were delivered by cycle9.com in the US. I’ve sent a request for new spokes and waiting for an answer. I’ll concentrate on my winter bike for now on and mount the CA and the rear tyre. As soon as I’ve got some data I’ll switch the controller to the new one and start experiment on different current limits to see if there’s possible to increase the power on a mini motor.
-
Here they have 3 3/4" :D
http://www.pitmotoparts.com/product_p/pmwh3.75.htm Nice gauge too. Not sure how it will go but you get these onto you rim and you will never have another problem.
]
Ohh and this item qualifies for free shipping.
"Set of 28 spokes with 90 degree Angle."
36 holes and 28 spokes does not match up so well, I think there would be a few gaps in it!
You'd have to buy 2 sets and have 20 spare spokes. ???
Alan
-
Here they have 3 3/4" :D
http://www.pitmotoparts.com/product_p/pmwh3.75.htm Nice gauge too. Not sure how it will go but you get these onto you rim and you will never have another problem.
]
Ohh and this item qualifies for free shipping.
"Set of 28 spokes with 90 degree Angle."
36 holes and 28 spokes does not match up so well, I think there would be a few gaps in it!
You'd have to buy 2 sets and have 20 spare spokes. ???
Alan
Oh this is not GM's fault, my bad. Forgive me again I'm just getting used to these problems. Im sure GM Canada will supply the right job.
Yes of cause.
Two sets If Peter has problems with counting :-\... 20 spares maybe a little overkill? You can always do with a few spares. Sometimes you slip a nipple or the thread isnt as tight.
I got 4 spares last time I did a rim, most handy.
Can any one find these fat spokes anywhere else cheaper and free shipping, go a head and post the linksy. I for one want some spares.
Are these the same gauge GM use Alan?
-
The problem with these spokes is that they are made for motorbikes and therefore probably is much thicker than bicycle spokes. The rim I intend to mount on the hub have eyelets for 14g spokes and the hub is for 13g spokes so the spokes I ordered are 13g/14g butted spokes. If I choose thicker spokes I have to drill the rim and take away the eyelets which will weaken the rim more than I can take benefit from thicker spokes.
I’ve recently learned that the English word for “eker” is “spoke”, and now I’ve used it extremely much in just a couple of meanings. ;)
Peter
-
If I choose thicker spokes I have to drill the rim and take away the eyelets which will weaken the rim more than I can take benefit from thicker spokes.
Peter,
Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-QZazAY0cc&feature=channel), you may find it useful. ;)
Alan
-
Are these the same gauge GM use Alan?
They don't give the gauge size, but I suspect they are probably thicker than the GM spokes.
I just took some measurements from the spokes on my kids motorbike:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Bikes/kids.JPG)
and they appear to be 3mm diameter, whereas GM spokes are 2.55mm, and the diameter of the nipples that go through the rim are approx 5.8mm instead of GM's 4.5mm.
Alan
-
Motorcycle spokes are from 3 ga to 10 ga (3,3 mm) and GM spokes are 13 ga (2,3 mm). The rim I intend to be a part of my wheel is for 14 ga (2,0 mm) spokes. The difference on the nipples should be similar which means I would have to file the eyelets 0,15 mm. The thickness of the eyelets sheets probably don’t exceed 0,5 mm. I think there would be risky to file on these but the questions are:
Is 2,0 mm spokes enough to handle the torque from the motor? ???
Does the difference between 2,3 mm and 2,0 mm matter so much? ???
The questions will soon be answered as I’ll have my ordered spokes. Cycle9 apologize and make me new ones right away, no need to return the wrong ones. ;D So if anyone is interested I now have 36pcs 197 mm 2,3/2,0 butted spokes.
Thank you Alan for the tips on the film. If I’d saw it earlier I maybe would have been in another opinion and filed the eyelets for straight 2,3 mm spokes.
A much happier Peter than yesterday.
-
Is 2,0 mm spokes enough to handle the torque from the motor? ???
Does the difference between 2,3 mm and 2,0 mm matter so much? ???
Peter,
My Magic Pie has 12 gauge spokes with 13 gauge nipples, but thinner gauge spokes will be more than strong enough to handle the torque from the motor, they will also be more flexible and able to absorb more road shock than a thicker gauge spoke. I would actually prefer to have the thinner spokes for this very reason.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1919.msg11015#msg11015) for further information.
Bicycle maker Paolo Salvagione discusses how bicycle wheels get their strength.
It's easy to think of the spokes as columns supporting the wheel and helping it retain its shape. But, the "support" that the wheel receives is created by pulling the spokes towards the center of the wheel (tension) rather than pushing out from the center (compression). If you've had the occasion to hold a spoke that was removed from a wheel, you've probably noticed how flimsy it is. You could bend one in half without too much effort. However, if you tried to pull one apart you would not be able to. The "pulling" of the spokes toward the center of the hub is what gives the bicycle wheel its strength.
So just how strong are bicycle wheels?
"Wheels, from what I remember, can hold about 400 times their own weight on a regular basis and they won't collapse until roughly 700 times their own weight, which makes them one of the strongest man-made structures on the planet," explained bicycle maker Paolo Salvagione.
This relates to standard bicycle wheels, so don't expect a heavier hub motor equipped wheel to support 400 times its own weight!
Alan
-
You have a very good point there Alan. If I stop my ordinary bike with disc brakes in a emergency situation the torque on the spokes would probably be higher than the torque made by the motor in acceleration. Correct adjusted spokes are much stronger than we often believe.
I was in a motorcycle accident a couple of years ago, where both the car and the mc had to be towed away. The mc repairman changed the frame, the front fork, the front mudguard, the exhaust-pipe and the handlebar, but the front wheel hadn’t deformed at all. We became amazed on how strong these spoked wheels are.
Peter
-
I took my egg shaped wheel to the bike shop to have the Magic Pie put into the rim the original bike came with. They couldn't do it but did say that the spokes need to be crossed rather than vertical if you are putting a lot of power through the wheel.
I've had a few loose spokes already so will be using Loctite on the threads to see if that stops it.
Also my modded (well over 50amps on pull away) GM Controller is still going strong? I think the key is to have the air running over the heatsink. I've done 200 miles on it so far and abused it so much.
-
Hi All,
Yesterday Pat and I went for a long spin, As expected, I left him behind on acceleration and hills, and he left me behind on long level ground. Actually there was around a 2 mile stretch with a slight descent, so naturally he had the advantage! I used just just over 1.2 amps less than Pat. That was over around 16 miles!
Hills though, no chance!
So, maybe next summer I will do as Leslie suggested, buy a 24 volt 20 amp ping. That will give me between 72-76 volts. I would imagine that would give me close to 40 mph! ;D I also have the extra space and weight to consider, as I don't like so much weight on the rear rack!
I'm not sure what that will do to efficiency, I expect it to be worse, of course, considering wind resistance! But from reading the sphere forums, I think the Pie motor is most efficient at 48 volts!
Mark
-
Spacey,
If you have the latest Pie, the spokes are not vertical, in a 26" rim they are angled at approx 9 degrees, which is probably 2 times greater than a standard wheel, to take far more torque than even your modded Pie can supply! But I definitely agree that radial spoking (vertical) would not suitable for transmitting large amounts of torque through the wheel. The maximum drive torque that can be transmitted through the wheel would be limited by the front wheel lifting off the ground. If the motor was powerful enough to do this, the new spoke layout should still be able to handle it.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1653.0;attach=1740;image) (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1653.0;attach=1739;image)
See my original post for more details (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1653.msg9301#msg9301)
On a new wheel, the spokes will generally loosen as they settle themselves in. If you simply re-tighten them correctly, they should eventually reach a the stage where they are completely settled in, and should then remain correctly tensioned for a long time.
Alan
-
That's a releif to know. So how tight is tight on these spokes?
I do have about 5mm oscillation in the wheel which. You can feel at high speed.
-
<< Is thanking himself for only ever buying and running cast/solid wheels :)
bit heavy tho
-
I asked the bike shop man to lace a rim with those eyelets and he made me drill em there at the shop. I totaled his rim before I even bought it..
I insisted I use a round file and work them slowly. Oh well he knew better.. Anyway I found the y pedal video here.. Well it would of worked.
-
Hello everyone, I came to this thread to ask a question...
I'd like some more torque on my bike and I was wondering if you'd recommend the shunt mod or dual pies. Onces the roads dry up, I will be commuting to work again on my bike until November-ish.
Here is what I've gathered so far..
Shunt mod:
Possible heat issues/larger power consumption
cheap (whats involved beside some solder?)
Dual pie:
better efficiency
very expensive ($495 CAD after tax/shipping)
What would you recommend and why? I've got a GM 48V/12ah battery.
-
Hey pwd !
Good work with your research, you pretty much nailed it right on the head with your query ;)
One member here I've seen has had no issues with his modded controller, but a few I've seen do put a bit of stress on the mosfets inside. I guess it really depended on how much you affected the shunt resistance to fool the controllers comparator.
Personally, I have dual drive - and own the GM12Ah battery same as yourself.
You are right about the current consumption, and I guess really it would be a gamble to mod the controller. So you could risk the health of the controller for more power, but less range - or you could have same if not better hill climbing and overall better efficiency running 2 motors. I also believe modding the controller will affect the regen, so again that could cause issues if that's a feature you would like to use. Anyone with a modded controller without regen issues?
That $495 would perhaps be spent one day on an extra battery anyway because you are chewing threw them with your hungry controller! ;)
2 motors will distribute your bike weight more evenly, and picture one 'high power wheel' (with the modded controller) against 2 hub motors front and back. You could imagine the rear high power motor will want to mono/wheelie the bike opposed to dual drive evenly weighted - the front wheel possibly spinning a bit on take off. The stopping power of dual regen will also be an advantage.
Plus if one wheel fails for some reason you can use the other ;)
Matching wheels :D You know what cars look like with mag wheels on rear and stock wheels on front... Doesn't look right hehe
I have to wonder about the BMS on the 48v12Ah battery as the cells are individually rated at 10A continous, I'm not actually sure of the peak output of these but I would say it would be near double at least.
Having said that, the 48v12Ah battery technically should put out 30A continous, so running dual drive is okay. The internal controllers peak around 25A so this I feel suits the battery well. The reason I wonder about the BMS is the description on the GM website says otherwise (20A cont. 35A peak).
So modding the controller could be something to consider if your battery could peak higher, remember you won't increase your top speed though.. And if you wanted more range you would buy more batteries and increase your bike weight anyway.
My 2c is go the dual drive, and have peace of mind you are running something you wont have to monitor and possibly die one day when you try and race a car lol
There ya go, a heap of reasons to go dual drive hehe
-
Thanks for the insight MonkeyMagic. The dual-pie setup is the better option for sure as far as reliability and efficiency. Seeing as how it would be me daily commuter, I'd rather have the peace of mind. Assuming everything works great for years to come it will be worth it. I'd still like to here anyone's thought's on this.
-
Did someone mention dual pies? ;D
Hi PWD, I've just converted my bike from one rear pie to dual pies and the difference is like night and day. I run it all off one GM 48v/12ah battery too.
look here, scroll down .... http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2810.15 (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2810.15)
Compared to single pie.....
Much much better torque
stronger pull/acceleration
Stronger take-off
Much stronger hill climbing
better top speed
The bike is more edgey, but still completely controllable with subtle throttle movement.The bike is much better balanced compared to having just a rear set-up and makes for a betterride. in my opinion it sounds no louder, and connecting up the pie motors to battery and pie throttle wires/connectors to main throttle cable is very easy to do. Joining together any other functions would be a piece of cake as well.
Andrew :)
P.s I have no experience or skills with modifying a controller, although I would suggest having couple of replacement controllers if you go down this route
-
My 2 cents..
I have seen a few do the shunt mod with sucess, but from what I have heard you just blow the fets eventually anyway. It would be wise to carry an extra controller with you if you go this way. As for the dual drive, I love it and the others here that have done it love it as well. The weight balancing on the bike is an added bonus too. I also added an extra battery to the front and it really does give it a motor cycle feel. I had seven motorcycles in my days of riding and am quite familiar with the way it feels. Then I also went to 2 Cycle Analysts, 2 headlights etc. I just wish the damn snow would go away so I can get back on it!!
Gary
-
My 2 cents..
I have seen a few do the shunt mod with sucess, but from what I have heard you just blow the fets eventually anyway. It would be wise to carry an extra controller with you if you go this way. As for the dual drive, I love it and the others here that have done it love it as well. The weight balancing on the bike is an added bonus too. I also added an extra battery to the front and it really does give it a motor cycle feel. I had seven motorcycles in my days of riding and am quite familiar with the way it feels. Then I also went to 2 Cycle Analysts, 2 headlights etc. I just wish the damn snow would go away so I can get back on it!!
Gary
gary, what about adding some stablizing ski's either side of your sled, all you need then are some spikey tyres ;D
-
Gary....you know we love you here in pommieland .....
any chance on getting some inside scoop on the 15 amp limit once usb software is used ??, they must know something right ?...not that I need it, but im drawn towards a competitors controller, they must understand sales are involved :)
-
Gary....you know we love you here in pommieland .....
any chance on getting some inside scoop on the 15 amp limit once usb software is used ??, they must know something right ?...not that I need it, but im drawn towards a competitors controller, they must understand sales are involved :)
You mean send in an email and hope for a response? Hmm interesting.. Maybe I should try that. I think they are back on the 8th from Chinese new year. I'll see what I can find out.
Gary
-
I wouldn't say it's the software that limits the current. It would be the comparator on the controller board the measures the resistance across the shunt and limits the switching current (PWM) on the mosfets. That's why changing the shunt or modifying the resistance by adding solder to the one already there doesn't "trick" the controller but puts the comparator out of calibration.
If anything the software could possibly be changed to send different strings to internal controller. I asked Tom for the RS232 strings a couple of times but he hasn't replied about that (if that's leaked then why would you buy a USB cable?? hehe)
Anyway I sat there for a day or 2 at one point with a serial TTL converter and connected it inline with the usb PI-200 cable. I can post some more info on what the USB cable uses for data if anyone is interested. I was wanting to make a small terminal to change wheel settings on the fly
So technically yes, you could add solder or change the shunt resistance to a point where the heat/current limits are OK. But that's touch and go... My guess is that progressively GM have changed the boards to suit a reliable current. There is actually room to make a custom heatsink to fit in there that would work an absolute treat if you did anything heat dispersal wise
That's why the external controller most definitely has higher power due casing the external controllers are enclosed in, plus the fact they are outside in one way or another. Also not sure if running 2 external GM controllers dual drive will be okay with the 48v12Ah battery I think the BMS will crap itself...
Has anyone opened the latest GM external controller? And know what the PCB model is? Not sure if that says anything.I say that as the MX-316 board I've had for a long time (internal) I felt peaked much higher than my newer pies but that controller died :( bigtime lol
My MX-316 board has the shunt mounted on the bottom of the board, and looks like the capacitors can be easily swapped to the other side (which would make it the external controller) Newer boards on recent pies are MX-319 to my knowledge and have the shunt on top like all other internal controllers I've seen.
Plus the heatsink plate the internal controllers are mounted on is only like 2mm thick if that, I haven't measured any room if you were to add a thicker one but the main cause would be heat building up in the small area surrounding the mosfets. If you look at the external case, it has like 5mm thick + surrounded in naturally cool aluminum cast anyway.
Generally if you want power you would go with external controllers as a rule of thumb. I know its a bit of a gimmick with the wattage readings on the website but at one stage the internal controllers may have peaked at 50A but not now... Maybe they are ashamed to change it lol
Still think its a good wheel though... My dual drive has served me day in day out now like a champ. And I'm also noticing much less "5 beeps" topics being posted from newer purchases :D that's good.
Okay so I will remember to have another stab at the serial strings going to the internal controller. That could be a safe method without having to mod the controller and you could step the current as you felt was safe.
Peace out
MM
-
Many thanks MM
I do love the pies, they serve me well..The angle I was coming from was that I have seen several reports of the controller pulling less amps after the usb cable has been used to save any settings.....i know the internal will always be a bit limited due to the heat dissapation but a nice informative post none the less.....
I guess the other angle is that if we could put more than 20 amps into a wheel with an external, we wouldnt need the duals ??
Thanks all :)
-
Yo yeah I know your angle... Mine is the same lol unfortunately the wheels weren't available with external controller option when I bought them, even if they did I think I would have gone internal controllers anyways.
And you have a good point about the higher power wheel vs. dual drive I thought about it a bit but there are too many pros of having the extra wheel with internal controller lol (weight, matching wheels etc.)
I will say that when my rear wheel had issues, and just running 1 wheel I much preferred having just the front wheel running. I had the battery on the rear then so maybe if I had the battery on the front and running a single rear wheel it would have felt the same anyway haha
I really like the internal controllers, and my recent decision rather than modding both wheels to external, then getting controllers and higher power batteries etc. is running a cyclone brushless chain drive motor.
Tom says it's fine but I am still VERY sceptical of pushing my 20" wheels to say 80km/h and what goes on with the voltages spinning at that RPM..
I'm thinking I will have to switch off one or 2 of the phases on each wheel when I push it past say 60km/h. Any tips anyone ???
-
I'm thinking I will have to switch off one or 2 of the phases on each wheel when I push it past say 60km/h. Any tips anyone ???
Do you really think the cyclone will be able to overcome the drag from two pies and power you past 60km/h all by itself? ???
Alan
-
Hmmm well I'm not 100% sure how well it will do it, but I do know it will go past 60km/h even with the drag.
What gave me the idea is, normally I reach what I feel is top speed on a flat which is around 40km/h. Downhill I go past 50km/h, as soon as I start descending the motors switch off (or reach the speed limit)
Then one day I had pretty big wind behind me and on a flat it topped out and the wheels were only kicking in out. You always have a thought of increasing the power... But I considered this idea with the room I had on my bike.
I guess my bonus with the cyclone kit is I can remove my pies and run 2 wheels - 20" to 26" size. So I can convert it for pretty heavy off road using normal wheels but I'm thinking I'll leave the pies on. I've also since changed my suspension spring to fix the pedal height difference along with a layback seatpost.
Anyway the motor I got was the geared 1200W (1600W peak) motor, although that's just the sticker I'm sure it's the max rated power. From all the info I've read the bigger (1500W 4000RPM) motor (the one you posted in the pic) is not only massive and loud (louder than this motor would not be nice) but has crap torque compared to the geared motor. Also I've read using the geared motor I have with a heavy thumb on the throttle taking off will eat the gears for lunch...
So I went back and forth with 'Paco' from Cyclone, he said he has customers who add cyclone kits to their hub setups for acceleration, and said it will work with higher top speed. Obviously I just lose a portion of torque with the gear ratio I've chosen.. He also warned me that the crankwheel minimum RPM will be 200+RPM so I cannot pedal at that speed. Lol I think I would look really funny attempting to pedal on my bike at 40km/h+ with my size wheels anyway haha
So here's my setup:
Geared brushless motor, 14T freewheel
34T, 44T, 32T freewheeling crank chainwheel (running single chain to rear)
Probably going with a 5 speed rear freewheel (14-28T)
20" wheels
There is some gearing choices to make, but I will probably try motor to 32T then 34T to rear (should equal around 45mph)
I really am unsure of how efficient this will be as in the end I want to switch off both pies and run the Cyclone. The controller I'm using is a 25A cont. 47A peak limited, hoping it will be safe with the cyclone as they draw upto and over 70A lol
Won't be running them all at once, depending on the current draw at speed, I will be switching off the pies. But I'm still not sure if that is necessary. I know switching phases from star to delta can spike a controller, so could a similar effect happen running wheels in excess of the rated voltage RPM? Tom says no, but I am still hesistant lol
I will say that I test rode a 'Hybrid' pedal scooter that has pedals, 33cc engine and 48v hub motor. The petrol motor can be switched on and off. Top speed electric was 32kph, 16" wheels. Top speed with petrol + electric was 68km/h. Its a new thing in China. The petrol motor also charges the battery and the running range with a few dollars petrol was something like 200km. Would hate if all your power ran out trying to pedal that boat around... yuck
The other day on Youtube I watched this big hippo of a guy riding a 36v cyclone upto 50mph and if it pulled his junk along with the SLA's it gave me some hope there..
So I wonder how that recumbent build is going with the petrol motor attached to the pie? We might have to give that topic a shake and see if there has been a test run ;)
I'll look for the big guy video, but heres a few from people with cyclones if you are interested. Not to try and convert anyone, but they do have some torque and are a decent motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WutMg1zlCJA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WutMg1zlCJA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo9VND-69iw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo9VND-69iw)
Oh and this guy totally gives Aussies a bad name... He must have the IQ of a shoe lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5cujWYfW4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn5cujWYfW4)
If it doesn't work, well I'm not really fussed. The Cyclone motor kit without controller, but with the freewheel crank chainwheel + mounting hardware etc. was only $250 delivered. So if this bums out I'll remove it and use it for something else.
I want the extra top speed only for these 3 long flat stretches of road I use regularly, and also at night it would be good to get places faster without traffic on the road. Otherwise I'm happy sticking to around 40km/h it has already. And won't be using the cyclone uphill.
Looking around I haven't seen anyone else do it, so maybe it is a bad idea. lol. If I had bigger wheels I would never had considered it but I think this could work.
Have you or anyone seen a similar project somewhere that runs chain+hub drive?
Jesus I just wrote a novel... whoops sorry :D
-
a cyclone as well,.....monkey, you are truly nuts :-*
-
Is anyone riding around with full downhill MTB helmets or just normal cycling helmets
one thing im aware of, having had several real nasty crashes, is the potential energy of a 25 mph smash on the head...
any thoughts on this ?
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/mtb-apparel-and-protection/full-face/met/parachute/PRD_413925_6705crx.aspx
bearing in mind if your front forks go, the face is going to take the first impact, should face protection be a consideration ??
just a thought ?
-
Is anyone riding around with full downhill MTB helmets or just normal cycling helmets
one thing im aware of, having had several real nasty crashes, is the potential energy of a 25 mph smash on the head...
any thoughts on this ?
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/mtb-apparel-and-protection/full-face/met/parachute/PRD_413925_6705crx.aspx
bearing in mind if your front forks go, the face is going to take the first impact, should face protection be a consideration ??
just a thought ?
My friends always said when we were riding around peddling our bikes "The only people that were helmets are those that have something to protect". So I guess if you have a pretty face....
Gary
-
I want one of these.....
(http://images.esellerpro.com/2375/I/171/23/661_comp_full_blk_2011.jpg)
-
I want one of these.....
(http://images.esellerpro.com/2375/I/171/23/661_comp_full_blk_2011.jpg)
Hey has anyone gone and modded their GM controller recently? Where is Spacey I think he's was still pumping away last time he was around
I'm tempted to do some McShunting... But I have a sneaky 'soft' mod I wan't to try first..... Details updated here!!
-
erm no, but I did get one of those dang sixsixone helmets, didnt even realise I got the same one till I saw your post today
Very cool, good windflow, very lightweight
Just remember if you get an insect in the mouth, don't spit it out ( todays lesson on full face helmet ;D )
-
erm no, but I did get one of those dang sixsixone helmets, didnt even realise I got the same one till I saw your post today
Very cool, good windflow, very lightweight
Just remember if you get an insect in the mouth, don't spit it out ( todays lesson on full face helmet ;D )
so you beat me..... I likey that helmet and price aint too bad either.
How is the weather where u are? It's F'ing FREEZING lately here in melb. AUS. so I wear one of these bug repellers ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ski-Snowboard-Motorcycle-Winter-Face-Mask-Neck-Black-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cb817ea26QQitemZ260786612774QQptZApparelQ5fMerchandise
-
hate to say it monkley, but its very nice...been sunny and 20C for quite a while now......normally I would feel guilty about telling you that, but after this winters pie experience, ......i deserve my sunshine
Keep the hands warm buddy
-
i like the sounds of a sneaky soft mod,is this for ext or int controllers. 8)
-
Its for both....
Give me a couple of weeks and I should hopefully have a direct plug in ready
-
Every Cruise Controller seems different inside ???
This would explain the differences I get bike to bike , some seem to pull much harder to start with some go a bit faster none get get anywhere near 50 amps peak and only put 16 to 18 amps out average nowhere near 35 amps at 48v even setting the controller amps flat out via the PC interface :'(
But bypassing the the shunt with a switch now I have boost LOL
-
lol I didn't mean that kind of plug in!
Who42 you are a power hungry man! I see this working, but for how long only 'Who' knows ;)
I think that switch is good for an amp or 2
-
replace your fets my man, the stock ones wont last long at that input,...beef up the traces etc.....
-
My Pie is Much More Powerful Now!!! :o
What I did see the little brown cap I just added another one in parallel it fitted inside controller but only connected across via that switch
it adds around additional 10 amps boost , I did beef up the traces and added more solder to anything I thought might need it ;D Magic Pie was putting out 1100w instead of 816w standard Torque Arm is a must
The switch & wires seems to handle it np ::)
If you really want more power and SPEED use the this Kelly controller it will spin a Magic Pie to over 60km/h at around 1800w with 2 x 48v 12amp batteries in parallel see Pic MA HA HA HA :P
I checked all this with my cycle computer :P
-
I like this helmet and price aint too bad either from Aldy store its a snowboard helmet $19 ;D
Very cool, good windflow, very lightweight and strong not like bike helmets 8)
Its got much more protection and its very comfy ;D
Plus the Helmet keeps my ears warm in winter LOL :o
-
What I did see the little brown cap I just added another one in parallel it fitted inside controler but only connected accross via that switch
Hey Who42 were the 3 shunts already in there?
cheers
-
What I did see the little brown cap I just added another one in parallel it fitted inside controler but only connected accross via that switch
Hey Who42 were the 3 shunts already in there? YES ,See how some controlers use large 63v 470uf round caps and some use small brown flat caps I just added a small brown flat cap that stiil fitted inside the controller box in parralell with the large 63v 470uf round caps but with a switch I drilled a small hole in controller box to allow 2 10amp wires through it to go to the switch ;D
I thought this was safer than just bypassing the shunt altogerther by soldering a wire directly accross
cheers MARK
-
HAHA
All you crazy power hungry Bikers ;D
Top speed on 16S LiPo on a test run yesterday was 41 mph absolute mas, average 35-38 mph! LOL
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/2011-07-02154325.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/2011-07-02154345.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/2011-07-02154359.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/MacCompressed.jpg)
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/2011-07-02154249.jpg)
-
Tasty!!
Hey are you going to put bigger brake rotors on? You could get bracket adapters cheap off ebay
I hope I don't get attacked by a MAC lol
-
hi monkey.
Yeah I probably could. But I pedal a lot so I usually don't go near those speeds.
Really I open it up for a mlie or two. On the good road before I turn off for the bad road again.
The rotors are fine for that.
The headset and shocks need to be replaced but I can't spend the money this year, maybe next year or I might look out for a better quality second hand bike.
-
The headset and shocks need to be replaced but I can't spend the money this year, maybe next year or I might look out for a better quality second hand bike.
That's 'cos you spent all ya money on LIPOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!
-
That's 'cos you spent all ya money on LIPOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!
Haha yeah and the charger!
Though the LiPo itself isn't too expensive, the initial purchase of LiPo, charger and power supply adds up, but it's cheap then to add extra packs in the future or swap dead or faulty packs.
I miss the simplicity of bms charging and discharging. And the peace of mind in leaving LiFePO4 in the house. I store my LiPo in the shed!
LiPo is definitely not for the ordinary man. I just long for the day batteries weigh a lot less.
What I may look out for is a meanwell to bulk charge my battery without having to split up the pack to charge. It never goes out of balance if you charge to 4.15 volts and discharge to 3.5 volts. I always leave 1-2 ah just to make sure the cells stay in balance.
It would be nice if they made a battery that you could charge and discharge completely without monitoring or bms or risk of damage!
-
Yeah as long as you monitor them they are excellent for the $
And you only really need to balance charge them every few months or so, you will be fine charging them in series.
Although I've been maintaining my batteries, I'm still a bit unsure how they will perform once I get my bike back on the road. It's taking forever!!! Lol but small progress is better than none....
At least you are riding yours lol
-
Yeah Monkey,
I got my bike on the road because I'm not building a spaceship! LOL
It's going to be super when you get it running though! ;D
-
Well it wasn't planned.... Put it that way lol
It will be a real definition of an e-bike 'build' though ;)
I'm slowly but surely progressing with the wiring. But see even while doing the wiring I had ideas haha I'll post them up with my build post
And I have a secret mod up my sleeve too.... :D
-
Lol can't wait Monkey you crazy man!
I bet 40 mph on your bike would be a lot nicer lower down!
-
ssshhh, don't let GM see this :D
rewired my mac with 12G alphawire, upgraded to the compound gears...set the controller to 120%, 25 amps.......that little mutha carried me to 39 MPH on the flat.....coincidentaly I forgot to disable cruise, and my friend tried the bike..( I havent fitted ebrakes on it yet)...he locked it from about 20MPH down to 0, not realising that cruise was locked on......motor shuddered to a standstill hopping everywhere ( with controller at 30 amps)...4 seconds before controller shutdown.....no damage whatsoever to the compound gears......they got my vote....
Will re-wire this motor shortly with much thicker phase windings.....
-
hey ginge.
you should try 40 amp battery and 90 phase ;D
-
I'm tempted to do some McShunting... But I have a sneaky 'soft' mod I wan't to try first..... Details updated here!!
I'm curious about that soft mod, could you share more information please.
-
Almost didn't find this, since it isn't in the Magic Pie-section... anyway, I saw some helpful pictures in this thread and I think I have a pretty good idea what to do, but just in case I'll confirm it with the Masters ;)
Here's a picture of my MP2, which I'm not entirely satisfied about. It's definitely the tamed 700-800W version. Just a few hundred watts more might do it.
Battery is 48V LiFePo4 2C, so there's plenty of power available for the Pie.
Questions:
(A) is the shunt loop that's essentially a current constrictor, or resistor whatever?
(B) is the shortcut I should solder on? Or just make (A) stronger with a parallel wire?
Any sense in strengthening (C)?
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4811/modfl.jpg)
-
Ok, the deed is done. Now it has POWER, maybe even too much, we'll see. I'll try to use it sparingly :)
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7364/modpie.jpg)
-
You should probably buy an egg timer too, so you can measure how long it lasts :D hehe
Good work on the mod, is your bike making wheelies now?
-
I remember when Leslie did the shunt modification on his two pies. After doing the mod he used the USB cable to pull back the amps to a desireable level. this seemed to work. For him for quite a while. I had heard that one of the controllers failed(I think he drilled a hole through the board by mistake) but the other still goes strong.
It would be interesting if someone would take on the challenge of adding small gauge wires to the shunt in increments. Then using a cycle analyst or something could see what gauge of wire adds how many amps.
Gary
-
I haven't noticed much heating after this mod. It's handwarm at most. No idea about the temperature inside the Pie.
My driving is normal city driving, to work and back home mostly, only 4km one way with some long uphills on the way, which are pure agony on normal bicycle. I only need to accelerate about 3 seconds to get to 30km/h and it shouldn't stress the Pie too much. I bet there would be overheating if I used it on a hilly forest path or something.
Other changes: changed the voltage setting back to 48V from 24V, installed 80A fuse and added a torque arm (10mm wrench + hose clamp) ;D
I'm very happy with the motor now. For next summer I need to get a more comfortable bike, with full suspension probably.
And I'm interested in that 2kW motor scorpion mentioned. Pie is a bit too large and gets too much attention (in a few days I got 4-6 people wanting me to build them electric bikes too...) Find me a 2kW mini motor and I'm buying it!
-
You should probably buy an egg timer too, so you can measure how long it lasts :D hehe
Good work on the mod, is your bike making wheelies now?
I thought the same about mine, but the original controller is still going strong.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Replaced my blown hall sensors last night, so I decided to take the bike for a 7 mile ride today with some very steep hills.
My 26" Pie certainly pulls wheelies when accelerating up hills (without pedalling) and I no longer need to use my gears, as I can now pull away in top gear because the throttle now works from stationary again.
The power has increased very slightly compared to sensorless mode, but the motor does sound noticeably quieter now. ;D
Here are the stats from my ride earlier today:
14 cell 5Ah LiPo pack was 58.6V at start of trip.
Maximum Amps: 60.35Amps (58.63Amps Sensorless)
Maximum Power: 3108.2Watts (3039.9Watts Sensorless)
Minimum Voltage: 47.42V (48.14V Sensorless)
Resting Voltage: 52.57V
Average Speed: 19.19mph
Maximum Speed: 34.60mph (downhill)
My average speed would have been higher, but I rode slower on the main road because my legs could not keep up with the pedals, and I did not want to draw attention to my speed. ;)
I almost got run off the road at one point when a car pulled over onto the cycle lane to allow a motorbike to pass, just as I was about to ride past him on the inside! I really could have done with some air horns like Monkey has, but at least my brakes (and reactions) worked well.
It's definitely the tamed 700-800W version. Just a few hundred watts more might do it.
Battery is 48V LiFePo4 2C, so there's plenty of power available for the Pie.
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7364/modpie.jpg)
Judging by the thickness of your shunt bypass wire, I expect you now have a few thousand watts more! (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/7_small.GIF)
I'm glad you've added a torque arm, I keep meaning to fabricate something for mine but I'm currently still relying on steel dropouts and some very tight axle nuts.
Alan
-
You need to fabricate a torque arm? ;)
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6119/13568436.jpg)
Even though I have a thick bypass wire, the software amp limits still apply, right? Well... mine are still set to 30/50 8)
-
Hear are some pics of the older untamed Controller and Newer Tamed Controller::)
-
MY SUPER CRUISE CONTROLLER 8)
I resurrected this early internal cruise controller it had blown the mosfets I replaced them with STP140NF75 / 75v / 120amp / 150deg ::) Then I put it in an external case after moving the caps etc around to fit :-X
Then mounted the whole thing on a really big heat sink after drilling a small hole to let the boost wires through :)
Then I added a BOOST BUTTON so I could have both normal and BOOST mode :o Cruise and Power I can choose either ;D
I used silver solder to beef up all high current joints , reattaching all connectors and to solder mosfets in place ;D
You can really feel the difference especially up hills :P
So far it only gets slightly warm at well over 1000w ???
-
MY SUPER CRUISE CONTROLLER :o
Then I mounted the whole thing in a ALLOY box with the heat sink on the outside 8)
I may even put a relay inside the alloy controller box and remote control the boost button from handlebars :-*
-
Hmmm, got an idea from that light switch button. That could be used as a boost switch with a ordinary car relay!
Bike could be a street legal 250W with pedelec sensor and perhaps narrowed down shunt to keep the power down even though the software has high amp limits.
Push the button and relay engages the bypass shunt and disconnects the pedelec sensor ::)
I wish someone would have time to test the effects of different shunt wire thicknesses.
-
Ok, my Pie just died. What was that about the egg timer? :D
Might be the BMS too though. It doesn't seem to let any power through.
Lost power after a long uphill climb, lights out and that was it.
Any easy ways to troubleshoot the motor+controller? I guess I'll try ruling out the bms by trying with 2 car batteries first.
-
If you have blown the mosfets I would replace them with STP140NF75 / 75v / 120amp / 150deg. Then put it in an alloy box with a large heat sink like I did :'(
-
It's an internal controller, so large heatsink needs some work... but I'll definitely consider those mosfets.
Anyway, troubleshooting is done and everything seems to point to the BMS.
I bypassed the BMS and ran tests with 24V and 48V and all the power is still there. That would not be the case if there was anything broken inside the Pie?
BMS itself is quite simple by structure. Would it help if I posted a picture of it here? I did some measuring with it and everything seemed fine. Every mosfet had 50V on two legs and -14V on one leg and all the leads coming from battery showed consistent 3.3V rise in each wire.
Main question: Can I just bypass the BMS? Of course I'd protect the battery with smaller fuse and take care I don't run it empty (not a problem with my short commutes).
Edit: I guess BMS is still quite necessary for charging. Need to test if it still works that way.
-
What battery are you using?
If its the GM battery in the aluminium casing. then the BMS is rated for around 60A peak MAX regardless of the voltage type.
The cells are 26650 are rated at 10A max continous, 20A peak (<3 seconds) so if you went up a big hill yes you could have toasted one of the Fet's on the BMS or damaged a cell causing the BMS to switch off. I'd probably say the latter
You cannot check cell block 1 of a GM battery without disassembling it, and you cannot test a MOSFET in circuit. So I would still do some trouble shooting before removing the BMS altogether...
It will be fine charging a pack bypassing the BMS, but you should balance the cells every few months. Oh and of course closely monitor the pack so you don't damage any cells!
:D
-
Vpower pack. 15A continuous 30A max. With A123 26650 cells. Ok, might have overstressed it a bit with perhaps 30 second full throttle run.
I measured the pack through the BMS wires again, first cell 3.3V and steady steps up to 49.4V, all identical. Charger says the pack is full and it might be true, only 5min drive after last full charge, so I don't know yet if it charges at all or not.
I don't really care if something breaks. I just don't want the 10kg battery exploding under my ass ;D
Already moving on: sent an inquiry to cell-man about a high power Mac-motor and one of those high power battery packs ;)
Or I'll just risk it and go with LiPos. Those scare me though.
-
Hi JS
Although the cellman motor is great, the pie is also amazing with an external controller built to handle the power, like the lyen infineons.....coupled with a good controller, no problems at all.......
-
Although the cellman motor is great, the pie is also amazing with an external controller built to handle the power, like the lyen infineons.....coupled with a good controller, no problems at all.......
Anyone converted an internal controller Pie to external? Lots of wires to connect I suppose. Has anyone managed to burn the Pie with an external controller?
I still want to try the Mac too though :) Smaller size is always a plus, since it gets less attention from authorities.
-
If you realy want a good controller try the KELLY Controller its only $179 and it can't be beat for power :o
2.2kw of power , I use one to power my 2000w Gear Motor and have tried it with a Magic Pie on a test it will spin a Pie to over 1500rpm + ???
LInk : http://Kellycontroller.com/keb4822124v-48v100a22kw-bike-brushless-controller-regen-p-59.html
KEB48221,24V-48V,100A,2.2KW, E-bike Brushless Controller /Regen
Price: $199.00 $179.00
Weight : 4.20 lbs
In stock
Stick Shift Throttle Firmware: (+$29.00)
High Speed Firmware: (+$49.00)
Ultra High Speed Firmware: (+$99.00)
KEB Electric Bicycle BLDC Motor Speed Controller
Kelly KEB48221 programmable e-bike/electric bike BLDC controller provides efficient, smooth and quite controls for electrical bike, electric motorcycle, scooter, etc. Electrical bike brushless motor controller outputs high taking off current, and strictly limit battery current. Motor speed controller can work with relative small battery, but provide good acceleration and hill climbing. BLDC motor speed controller uses high power MOSFET, PWM to achieve efficiency 99%. In most cases, Powerful microprocessor brings in comprehensive and precise control to BLDC motor controllers. This programmable brushless motor controller also allows users to set parameters, conduct tests, and obtain diagnostic information quickly and easily.
Features:
• Specially designed for electric bicycle and scooter.
• Intelligence with powerful microprocessor.
• Synchronous rectification, ultra low drop, fast PWM to achieve very high efficiency.
• Electronic reversing.
• Voltage monitoring on 3 motor phases, bus, and power supply.
• Voltage monitoring on voltage source 12V and 5V.
• Current sense on all 3 motor phases.
• Current control loop.
• Hardware over current protection.
• Hardware over voltage protection.
• Support torque mode, speed mode, and balanced mode operation.
• Configurable limit for motor current and battery current.
• Battery current limiting available, doesn’t affect taking off performance.
• More startup current ,can get more startup speed.
• Low EMC.
• LED fault code.
• Battery protection: current cutback, warning and shutdown at configurable high and low battery voltage.
• Rugged aluminum housing for maximum heat dissipation and harsh environment.
• Rugged high current terminals, and rugged aviation connectors for small signal.
• Thermal protection: current cut back, warning and shutdown on high temperature.
• Configurable 60 degree or 120 degree hall position sensors.
• Support motors with any number of poles.
• Up to 40,000 electric RPM standard. Optional high speed 70,000 ERPM, and ultra high speed 100,000 ERPM. (Electric RPM = mechanical RPM * motor pole pairs).
• Brake switch is used to start regen.
• 0-5V brake signal is used to command regen current.
• Support three modes of regenerative braking: brake switch regen, release throttle regen,0-5V analog signal variable regen.
• Configurable high pedal protection: Disable operation if power up with high throttle.
• Current multiplication: Take less current from battery, output more current to motor.
• Easy installation: 3-wire potentiometer will work.
• Current meter output.
• Standard PC/Laptop computer to do programming. No special tools needed.
• User program provided. Easy to use. No cost to customers.
General Specifications:
•Frequency of Operation: 16.6kHz.
•Standby Battery Current: < 0.5mA.
•5V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA.
•Controller supply voltage range, PWR, 18V to 90V.
•Supply Current, PWR, 150mA.
•Configurable battery voltage range, B+. Max operating range: 18V to 60V.
•Analog Brake and Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. Producing 0-5V signal with 3-wire pot.
•Full Power Operating Temperature Range: 0? to 50? (controller case temperature).
•Operating Temperature Range: -30? to 90?, 100? shutdown (controller case temperature).
•Peak Phase Current, 30 seconds: 100A.
•Continuous Phase Current Limit: 50A.
•Maximum Battery Current: Configurable
Optional Features:
Optional Waterproof: The price is 38 U.S. dollars.
Optional Stick Shift Throttle Firmware: The price is 29 U.S. dollars.
Optional High Speed to 70,000ERPM: The price is 49 U.S. dollars.
Optional Ultra High Speed to 100,000ERPM: The price is 99 U.S. dollars.
-
Erm, feature rich for sure :)...nice controller.....pricing a bit on the high side though, and will need uber batteries, but never mind, cant top the feature set
-
Aren't Lyen-modded Infineons even better? :)
For my next motor I'm thinking of 3 choices:
- Mac
- Crystalyte HT
- HPC Striker
Very interested in HPC, which is most expensive but seems to be able to handle lots of power. I need a motor which I know can handle anything I throw at it.
My Pie is working again. BMS is hanging on the garage wall ;D
Had to bring the amps down to 20A peak 10A continuous before there was any noticeable drop in power.
-
Hi Js
erm, here's my thoughts
crystalyte, great motor, handles lots and lots of volts, but big and heavy with no freewheel
mac, great motor, with freewheel, and I can order any spare part I want for delivery in about 10 days ( proven, ordered clutch, gears, axle), but moving parts, not DD so will be some wear over large mileage......i paid 50 dollars for a clutch and gears ( new unbreakable ones) so they are amazing value, geared motor at DD pricing
Dont know anything about the HPC, endless sphere chaps use mostly bmc, mac, crystalyte and nine continent, lots of members, lots of votes, so I guess you need to figure out the requirement feature set for your style of riding, then pick a motor to suit you..
i have 2, a Magic Pie for heavy duty grunt, cross country, bad weather etc, then the mac for finess, road cycling to work, then electric home etc....1000 miles on the mac, nearly 4000 on the pie
I have lyen controllers, great power, cooler...not probably as feature rich as the Kelly, but nearly 100 dollars cheaper at the 12 fet range, perfect for me....works on both motors a treat
-
By Crystalyte's lack of freewheel you mean it will resist pedaling a lot more than a MP for example? Isn't it similar construction to MP?
Also, the new HS/HT-versions weigh 5.5kg, which is less than MP. You were probably refering to bomb-proof (and heavy) 5303?
So many choices... perhaps it would be good to wait until spring ::)
-
they are direct drive so will have maybe similar drag to pie .....not a true freewheel....but the mac and the goldenmotor mini have true freewheel with no drag at all...i think the mac is 3kgs....
my way to decide which motor I would buy would involve first these type of questions
how powerful must the motor be ( get me to work and home with 50% work, 25% work, 100% work on my part etc)
what kind of cycling will the motor do ( leisure cycle, relaxing, or must I get to work as fast as I possibly can)
how powerful must the battery be to drive it
how much does it cost
how reliable must the motor be
how many spares must I carry on hand
how obtainable are all spares, time cost etc..
these sort of function defines form questions should lead you in the right direction...
but the pie you have with a lyen will certainly be very close to a good crystalite 5306 or 5307 etc,,,great power but not 30-40mph...
-
Aren't Lyen-modded Infineons even better? :)
For my next motor I'm thinking of 3 choices:
- Mac
- Crystalyte HT
- HPC Striker
Very interested in HPC, which is most expensive but seems to be able to handle lots of power. I need a motor which I know can handle anything I throw at it.
My Pie is working again. BMS is hanging on the garage wall ;D
Had to bring the amps down to 20A peak 10A continuous before there was any noticeable drop in power.
Hi JS,
If I were you I would keep the pie, rip out the internal controller and wire it up with some 12G alpha wire eco!
One Guy over at Endless Sphere is running his at 84 volts on LiPo batteries and he gets 40+ mph and is very happy with it's power, it would fly on 24S lipo, that's 88.8 volts nominal or 99.6 hot off the charger charging to 4.15 volts per cell!
One obvious advantage of LiPo is the fact you can pull very high currents from a small 10ah pack and you don't need a veery large 30+ ah pack. You could of course go with A123 for absolute safety and it's easier to charge with the bms, but it will cost 2 times or more a lipo pack, only think with a lipo set up is chargers are expensive, the Ichargers are good!
If you want to pedal then a mac is really good and it will do 31 mph on 12S lipo 12fet infineon controller, with controller set to 120% speed!
Obvious disadvantages with the geared, they do eventually wear out, can't off road, and the motors get hot,
SO the pie was an expensive motor so I would keep it and volt it up and it's got massive torque, Not as good as the mac of course for the same voltage but I bet it's a beast on 80-90 volts!
Lyen can make you a controller and I believe the pie works very good sensorless, but you need to look up the ES forum, I forget the guys name that is using his sensorless and at 84 volts! It would save you having to runn hall wires, you just need to have it moving a little for it to kick in!
You also need him to set the regen for the battery you are going to use and also you need him to set the controller to work with regen on higher voltages above 72 volts!
Mark
-
Why do you guy"s keep on about the 12fet infineon controller ???
The Kelly 2.2 kw Controller is about the same price and absolutely leaves the 12fet infineon controller for dead. The Kelly 2.2 kw Controller works from 18V to 90V upto 100amps and can spin a Magic Pie to over 5000rpm if you want it to , 10 times the speed of a Cruise Controller can and its entirely programmable with soft ware that comes with it LOL ???
LInk : http://Kellycontroller.com/keb4822124v-48v100a22kw-bike-brushless-controller-regen-p-59.html
-
well its 50-100 dollars more expensive so not exactly the same price .......
Truth is, im sure the Kellycontroller is much more programmable, and probably better....but for me, a cheaper upgrade using top quality components was a great upgrade from the pie controller...simple, powerful, cheap, extreme reliability, amazing customer service, 5 day shipping from order.....cellmans 12 fet is 79 dollars......hence why myself and mark rave about it........
Dont get me wrong, not knocking what you are saying by any means....just 2 ends of a spectrum, thats all :)
I would love to try the Kelly controller, but I think the programmability will be a novelty for me, which might not add up to the extra price
so RPM wise, real road, what speed can the Kelly take a 26" pie to ?
p.s...mark, the new cellman infineon has a new push button cruise........
-
Yes The Kelly 2.2 kw Controller supports cruise button :o
so RPM wise, real road, what speed can the Kelly take a 26" pie to ? When I tried it with two 48v 10amp batteries in paralell it did over 45mph before the BMS cut the power LOL :'( it felt very strong and it moved my make shift touque lever so I was not game to push it further ::)
-
Why do you guy"s keep on about the 12fet infineon controller ???
The Kelly 2.2 kw Controller is about the same price and absolutely leaves the 12fet infineon controller for dead. The Kelly 2.2 kw Controller works from 18V to 90V upto 100amps and can spin a Magic Pie to over 5000rpm if you want it to , 10 times the speed of a Cruise Controller can and its entirely programmable with soft ware that comes with it LOL ???
LInk : http://Kellycontroller.com/keb4822124v-48v100a22kw-bike-brushless-controller-regen-p-59.html
Yep it's more expensive, and I see from the ling you sent me the configurable battery is 18-60 volts and supply up to 90? I don't really understand that.
Anyway neither do I understand what you mean by it can spin the pie at 5000 rpm? Surely a voltage of 48-52 volts will mean 24 mph and 85 = 40 mph, I understand higher voltage = speed and current torque!
Mark
-
p.s...mark, the new cellman infineon has a new push button cruise........
Hi Ginge, how are you, you having fun with your mac? I love it lol it's addictive on 16S lipo! ;D
Yeah I know cruise is an option, but I've no e-brake leavers to cut the motor, I do have a kill switch, however with hydraulic brakes I can't use them and in an emergency, I would rather not have cruise, too dangerous on a high power set up! ;D
I do pedal a lot and over the course of 3 days I cycled 53 miles and only used 5ah of my 10ah pack so in reality a 10ah pack can take you 100 miles, if you are prepared to pedal. But it's amazing how much you could squeeze from such a small pack!
The 3 speed switch works really good too because I can turn it to low in traffic without it taking off really hard, it's much more smooth in slow traffic or when you want to give friends or family members a spin without risking their lives. I just warn them not to touch the switch lol, but of course my brother switched it to high and he opened it up on the way home, the look on his face was really cool. ;D
This is an expensive but really thrilling hobby, In the future I want to build a higher power setup on a good downhill bike for rough terrain. It's just a real shame the weather is sh!t here it makes such a difference when the sun decides to shine.
Another thing I would love is cycle tracks, most of the land in Ireland is farm land and it's the most deforested land in the whole of Europe! We have no access to most of the land and farmers are very hostile and they have this major thing about people on their land they would almost shoot you for being on it. There has been much blood spilled over this land because of land, sad really! Anyway That's why I love Germany so much, when I was in my Girlfriends parents house in the south a few weeks ago I could go out their driveway and decide which cycle path through the forest I want to take today, In Ireland you are thinking which road is less dangerous today! If you call them roads, the speed of cars on tiny twisty bad quality roads is scary!
LOL rant over
Mark
-
Hi Mark
I know what you mean, I nearly got shot in Thurles a few years back......
As to the brake levers, stick a push to break microswitch on the main brake body, and a bit of metal on the handle ( small tube that touches the microswitch when brake is in normal position), and voila, you have your e-brakes....I got my shimano deore intergrated's setup for ebraking using this method...
for the higher power setup for cross country, maybe you could re-upgrade back to a pie ?
Its simple for me...2 bikes...1 mac for light carefree cycling, 1 pie for all out motorbike cross country or not
p.s.....to all, Ive moved away from aluminium frames totally now, this is indeed just a dangerous metal full stop...when it fatigues, it just powders with no warning....not something im putting my fat a"£$ on anymore :)
-
Hi Ginge,
Yep that's a good idea alright! ;)
I remember seeing on a German E-Bike site, hydraulic E-Brake levers, I forgot to bookmark it and can't find it now! :)
It's a pity they don't make suitable steel bike frames, you still see steel on some cheap mountain bikes but they are crap!
Yeah I will play around with Pat's pie when he gets his Mac, But I want to get a good second hand downhill bike, they are very expensive and I won't be getting it for a long time now as I spent way too much on this build! But Downhill bikes are the way to go for high power!
What we need for us power hungry bikers is someone to make good frames that you can mount the batteries easily and are a bit tougher than normal bikes. Some that are maybe a bit lower to the ground for stability.
I went out today and I couldn't help notice how cold the wind is, and so many trees turning brown now is really unusual for this time of year! I wonder what kind of a winter is on way after this cool summer?
I got my charger from evessemble. It doesn't work lol, I think they have the voltage set too low and it thinks the battery is charged, I'm in the process of finding out how to adjust it. It will make charging very easy if I get it working!
Mark
-
Hi mark
the steel frames are out there but tend to be a little rich....
I git two. one is a sanderson life I got for 200 and the other is a fireeye bloodshot.110 at chainreaction cycles....bargains
both are brilliant frames...both 4130 cromoly...the sanderson is reynolds 853 tubing. they really do smooth out the bumps too
-
Hi Ginge,
They look strong but they are only hard tail frames?
here is what I'm talking about ;D
(http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Lecky/downhillbike.jpg)
That would make a very cool electric conversion, I could even take it to the wood which is only 4 km away, I would have a blast on it!
But that will be a few years away yet, so I'll start saving and hopefully I get to build it, in 2 years I'm sure there will be much better batteries and someone might come up with good ideas for frames too. the future is going to be really something to look forward to, unless of course the law clamps down and everyone is forced to ride around on stupid 250 watt cheap crap pedelec's (but not cheap to buy)
-
steel will mostly only come in hardtail frames, as the steel flexes, its no good for hinges and moving parts on a bike frame etc
a lot of the people I have spoken too say having steel makes up for the suspension anyway,...ill let you know morrow. first 40 Miles actual cycle with new steel and no motor :o
-
Ginge , have you ever thought about running around 90 ish volts through your pie? :o
-
Run 72 through it once ( 84 fresh off the charger)....
That was an exciting experience....scared for my frame though....but as the new one has 6mm hardened steel dropouts, might give it another go :)
-
Run 72 through it once ( 84 fresh off the charger)....
That was an exciting experience....scared for my frame though....but as the new one has 6mm hardened steel dropouts, might give it another go :)
I have a carerra kracken bike from halfords and the aluminium frame is holding up very well. I have very good steal torque arms that's Pat made me. The bike is not the best though and the front shocks are junk!
I think a bike like the one in the pic above would make a superb bike for off road, that and a high volt Pie and you would have a very good high power bike!
24S LiPo would be some fun, Thats abut 88.8 volts nominal nearly 100 volts off the charger :o
And 60 amps and more peak and you have yourself a 5-7 kw peak or 6-9 horse power! ;D
-
I think you guys running some lighter, geared motors and your large spoked wheels would seriously be fine on an aluminum frame with a torque arm backup.
You would really need to make sure that your torque arm is really snug on the axle, and then FIXED by going a bit overboard with hose clamps would probably hold up pretty well
Using something that I made for my steel frame like this is probably a big no no on Aluminum:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2278.0;attach=2594;image)
Topic (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2278.0)
^^It would just snap the entire dropout aluminum weld and puts more stress on the joins - complete opposite on the steel frame dispersing the torque across the plate, bolts, and weld joins
On the aluminum frames, it's really the thinner front dropouts that are the biggest culprits.
The rear might fail, but it would just spin the axle in the dropout causing damage to your wires. The biggest problem on the rear is actually hitting a gutter/pothole at speed or any large forces like doing a jump and hitting the ground will be the hardeded axle that will physically snap the dropout.
I see a heap of guys that swap out the rear assembly for a steel one anyway. So maybe keep an eye out for a replacement steel rear end. Alot of bikes are built in the same frame design in both steel and aluminum. That would be ideal !!
Funny, last night someone had an Intrepid 24" Steel MTB they kindly left out for hard rubbish. So yup I sure snatched that up! Its doesn't have front nor rear suspension but the frame and tubing is pretty serious. Only a bit of surface rust so its an easy fix
This prompts me to create a new topic for ideas lol..... Ok you can have your ears back now, I think I've 'torqued' them off !
-
Hey Monkey ;D
You are a funny chap! :)
How's that space bike, is it nearly finished yet?
I think my bike in fairness has done very good to survive the torque of the mac, it is an absolute animal!
I have the block time at 0 in the controller which Helps, I don't think you need any current over shoot on a geared hub!
Mark
-
Man my super space mobile 5000 is a moaning biatch.... lol
I think I'll tell the whole story once I'm done, but every aspect has needed be be modified to fit/bolt on to some degree, then most of those modifications themselves have to be customised !!!!
Trying to explain it here I just keep writing sentences then deleting them haha pictures better tell the story....
I'm so close - yet so far away haha
-
okay! so can you explain to me exactly what to do if I were to do the same thing to my Magic Pie 2.0?
I never solder anything in my life but, positive I can do so.
on scale from 1-10
how easy would it be to do this alteration?
-
I decided to move my previous post to a New topic which you can see here (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4072.0) as I think it really deserves its own thread.
Alan