GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: dfmerrifield on April 20, 2010, 07:55:18 AM
-
I had gotten my Magic Pie up and running about 3 weeks ago and she runs real nice. But, as advertised on the http://www.goldenmotor.com/magicpie/magicpie.html site, says that I should get around 60 km (or 37 miles) out of it "Ranges(full electric mode): 45Km(36V12AH) or 60Km(36V16AH, 48V12AH)". I have the 48V12AH and thought I would get maybe 50 km (32 miles) out of it at least due to the winds we have out in the country where I live. This is why I ordered the 48V12AH is for the distance due to it being 25km (16 miles) each way to work. The roads are all black top and fairly flat as I live in a rural farming area and you can look for miles all around and see nothing but farm fields for miles and miles. I have tried everything, including: pedal assist while starting, going over over passes and tried running her at different speeds like 25 km, 32km then 40 km (25 miles hour) the whole time with CC on until the battery died and still get the same result every time, depending on the wind and if it's up my ass or not, 24km (15mi) to 29km (17mi) average riding distance and that's it. The bike only goes 40 km (25 miles hour) with the wind at my back and maybe average 35 km (22 miles hour) with a good breeze to the face. Don't even ask about going over the over passes, like going over the 401. I tried it once without peddling to assist it get over the "hill" but she slowed down to a slow crawl and I had to give her a lot of help to get going. She goes real good down the other side though! The thing is I know it's the Battery that is doing the shutting down. I have to turn off the key to reset the battery to get it to start up again. The longer I let it sit the little farther I get to go before the battery shuts down again. Now as I said before, I live out in the country with hardly no stops and goes at all. The closest town to me is 8.8 km (5.5 Miles) one way with no stops. and the next is 16 km (10 miles) with no stops.
So, the question is::: Is this normal or is there something wrong with my battery or the set-up with-in it. and yes I did check the voltage from the charger and the battery and both say 54.6V. The funniest thing is, the battery shuts down just as the bike just starts to slow down maybe a few km (2-3 Miles hour) then boom, OFF she goes.
I love my Magic Pie but, she don't seem to want me to ride her all that too far. She wants to stop for grub all the time. Need help figuring out a way to get her diet to last a bit longer than only average 25km (16 mi). I have been pondering an other battery and running two of them, but, I shouldn't have to if I am supposed to be able to get 2.5 time the distance I am getting now.
Thanks
Don
-
Strange...
On the 'EV Battery' page, they says "Ranges(full electric mode): 38Km(36V12AH) or 50Km(36V16AH, 48V12AH)"
I get an average of 35km out of my 36V, 16Ah battery...
-
Strange...
On the 'EV Battery' page, they says "Ranges(full electric mode): 38Km(36V12AH) or 50Km(36V16AH, 48V12AH)"
I get an average of 35km out of my 36V, 16Ah battery...
Those ranges looks more realistic for a 250W motor, what motor do you use?
-
Cornilius, Yes I did see these spec's too. ("Ranges(full electric mode): 45Km(36V12AH) or 60Km(36V16AH, 48V12AH)") on the site and at others too. Just was making a point towards the advert's that were online through http://www.goldenmotor.com/magicpie/magicpie.html. Then other places on the site you see "Ranges(full electric mode): 38Km(36V12AH) or 50Km(36V16AH, 48V12AH)". So, I did figure I should get more realistic and go with the lower of the two and go from there as I said above:
I have the 48V12AH and thought I would get maybe 50 km (32 miles) out of it at least due to the winds we have out in the country where I live. This is why I ordered the 48V12AH is for the distance due to it being 25km (16 miles) each way to work.
I figured I should get at least 40 km (25 mi) out of it and maybe even if lucky 45 km (28 mi). I run her with 29.47 kg (65 lb) air in my tires (real hard with little ground to tire resistance). I weigh 88 kg (190 lbs) and riding on flat black top even with the wind to my back and no stop and go at all, I still only get an average distance of 25 km (16 mi) and max 40 kph (25 mph) then the motor backs off. The motor keeping down to a max 40 kph (25 mph) is good though, for me anyway. 'Cause, if it went faster I know I would use it and ya know you gotta watch out for those idiots in blue. But, only getting half the distance out of my battery is kinda getting on my nerves when the adverts' say much more. Was kinda hoping I could go the 51 km (32 mi) round trip to work and back with a bit of pedal assist (Hell, I'm 50 yrs old and need the exercise) but, now I have to worry about even getting there one way.
Thanks
Don
-
I use the 750W standard hub-motor (not magic-pie), and weighs around 80kg...
Another thing; not long ago, they said on most of the pages: 'Get 45km out of 36v/16Ah and 48v/12Ah', not much else... ;)
With my motor, i'd say around 35km with no pedaling and close to full throttle, and 45-50km with light pedaling and moderate throttle... (I haven't tested the latter properly yet; i'm too lazy, and having too much fun just cruising... ;D )
-
For the 36V16Ah battery you have 576Wh of energy, so with a 750W full throttle and considering 78% of efficiency:
750W/0,78=961,54W of consuming power, so:
576Wh/961,54W=36 minutes or 0,6 hours of use.
Then you can multiply your max speed by those 0,6 hour and check if it fits your range :D if not, we need to change the efficiency value.
-
Now, we cannot say 'it uses 961W at full throttle'? it would depend entirely on the load. With a light downhill I would guess under half of that...
At what load does the 750W use max energy?
Last time my controller cut due to low power, I had been riding a total of 1hr, 14min from full charge, and avg speed was around 31km/h... That would be a 38km trip.
-
I just got done redoing my MP over the last couple of hours. I went and got a new set of tires and put them on. They are more like cheater slicks to me so, maybe a lot less road restriction. I also had to straighten out my MP wheel, it was like riding on an egg. "It cam that way from Golden Motors too! The spokes were all out of whack. Some where way too tight and most where so loose, any longer running it I would have some of them actually come all the way off. And I am not kidding about that either! It was so bad that the tail light bracket that came with the rack 002 actually broke off while riding down the road just from the vibrations in only a few rides.
I am gonna go for a ride and see how much better it is and how far it goes now ??? .
As for GM from Brazil, don't let figures that come out of a lab or out of a book fool you. Here in the real world, those figure only work on paper. In real life things are totally different!
I want to go for a ride to town for a bit and see how things go now with my bike and after I come back I will give you some for instances.
Cornelius, I know what you mean by loving to just cruise! Anyway I should be actually getting the same distances you are getting with your bike. Mine don't make any difference if I go full throttle or not. Like I said above:
I have tried everything, including: pedal assist while starting, going over over passes and tried running her at different speeds like 25 km, 32km then 40 km (25 miles hour) the whole time with CC on until the battery died and still get the same result every time, depending on the wind and if it's up my ass or not, 24km (15mi) to 29km (17mi) average riding distance and that's it. The bike only goes 40 km (25 miles hour) with the wind at my back and maybe average 35 km (22 miles hour) with a good breeze to the face.
I am gonna find out if redoing the rear end and new tires make a difference (which I know it will a bit but, how much is to be seen).
Be back in a few and will let you know how it went.
Don
-
I AM NOT REAL IMPRESSED!
Bad day for Magic Pie!
Too pissed off to say anything right at this moment!
13.4 miles and done then and to peddel the rest home out of 20 miles?
Not a happy camper right now!
Tom! get a hold of me as soon as you can so we can fix this?
It has to be a bad cell in the pack. It's getting worse every week.
The amp draw is getting smaller and smaller all the time.
Don
-
As for GM from Brazil, don't let figures that come out of a lab or out of a book fool you. Here in the real world, those figure only work on paper. In real life things are totally different!
That was a very simple calculation that does not consider a lot of aspects of real life, but during my real life tests using my real life bike at a real life road, I can predict pretty accurate my range (not with that simple equation), considering that I live at a very flat city. :D
That equation helps, but of course it can not be considered in real life situation with a lot of starts and stops, hills, etc. But gave you an idea of what to expect, didn't??
And also, books and labs shows and study real life scenarios, if you use that information or not is your call ;)
13,4 miles is a real scenario to me when I do not pedal together and runs at full throttle all the time, with a lot of starts and stops using my 48v12Ah with the Magic Pie, but generally I got 25km to 30km with pedaling at starts and high grade up hills.
-
This is a post I made from another topic in the forum
After re-reading this thread I just realized you don't just want to farther but you want to go faster. Two 48v12ah batteries in paralell won't make you go faster, but it does allow you to go full speed further. My treck to work is ten miles up hill and downhill back. I used to do it on a 36v500 with one 36v16 ah battery with alot of peddling and gentle thumb work on the throttle ( my weight is a serious factor in this equasion, but we are not discussing that). Then I upgraded it to a 48v1000 watt and a 48v12ah battery. It was faster but still alot of peddling and gentle throttle. Now I have two 48v12ah batteries fly full throttle both ways and sit back and drink my coffee!
My trek to work is 20 miles round trip. I found that with one battery of either 36v16ah or 48v12ah barely makes is with alot of peddling. That is why I upped the anti to 2 batteries. One my way to work which is mainly uphill at full throttle I notice I am burning 1000-1100 watts ( I use a cycle analyst to get live readings ) and on my way back down hill still at full throttle I am burning 600-900 watts. I never really realized how much power I was burning until I was able to read these numbers live with the analyst. Even on my site my calculations for distance are based on burning 250w to go 32kph on flat ground but with my weight this is unrealistic. My wife however is only around the 100 pound range and can go the same distance on her bike with one 36v16ah battery as I can with 2 48v12ah batteries.
I have written Tom to, hopefully we can get some clarity on the situation.
Gary
-
Thank You for the call Gary! If anyone needs to order anything for their bikes, ether a full kit or just parts, go to GoldenMotor.ca and get it from Gary their. He is the most stand-up guy I have had the privilege of dealing with. I ordered my MP at noon on a Tuesday and the very next morning at noon I received my Kit and Battery. I am a Mechanical/Stationary and Environmental Engineer and have an Inter-provincial Class A Refrigeration License and own a Refrigeration and Mechanical Company. I have to deal with many different people working in my business and Gary stands out in the lot!
Mr GM from Brazil, as I tell all the students that come and go through my business for their hands on Engineering or Mechanical training. "Do what the teachers want you to and learn the theory from the books and lab reports then when you come here to work, forget 75% of what you learned there and we will teach you the right way to do it." Because all theory applications will not work on all practical applications. Every job is totally different from the other just as every e-Bike situation is and always will be from one another.
Now here is the Three Week scenario to show why and how I know the Battery is going.
1. I had the kit for one week before I was able to put the thing together. Had to work out of town as usual. The first week after running it up and down the road to check it out, I had real quick take off and got up to 25 or more mph. Toke her for a ride to town, that is just over 10 mi one way, to make my bank deposits. I did not give it any pedal assist to see how far she would go before the battery died. She ran at 25 mph against the wind and 28 to 29 mph with side gusts and made it all the way back home when the red low power light came on "and that was with heavy winds all the way there and most of the way back. That was as cool as cool could be to me. GREAT! So, 2 days later I did it again, the same exact thing but this time I ran the CC and kept it at 20 mph and the distance was quite less. I had to pedal the last almost 1 mile and the wind gusts were half of what they were 2 days earlier.
2. Went back to town to the bank again for something to do and test her out again. With hardly no winds, just a light breeze off the lake and she only went max 25 mph and down to 22 mph. Thought maybe the battery needed to sit on the charger a bit longer. So let it go for now. Two days later, went to the bank again and couldn't get no faster than 22 mph so set the CC at 20 and with some wind down to 18 to 19 mph. Now that got me thinking, there must be something wrong. Taking the same roads at the same time of day and getting totally different results. So that weekend I went up the road to give my Dad a hand with his trailer, it need some welding done. With a fully charged battery, I would only get up to 20 mph and would not climb over the highway so I had to pedal up it and got there and she slowed down to 18 mph and that is only 5 miles down the road and on the way back started out for the first, not even 1 mile, got 18 mph then slowed right down to 11 - 12 mph at full throttle and I pedaled all the way back home with it and still died 1 mile from home. I did have some extra weight with me, had a some welding equipment with me in a back pack, not much only about 35 -40 lbs. Got me thinking again, there is something wrong here.
3. Yesterday! Started to go to town and hit the bank and test out the new tires and the rear wheel after the great fix-up. I got half way there and decided "There ain't no way I am gonna make it all the way there. I had no power at all! With no wind at all, not even a slight breeze, she would only get a max of 18 mph and that was only for the first few miles and started going down from there. So I headed to the other town that is only 5.5 miles from home to hit the store and she died 1 mile from the store! I pedaled the last mile there and tried the battery on the way back and got less than a half mile so tried pedaling the rest of the way home and had to push it the last 2 or so. Today, I went to see what she would do again (SUCKER FOR PUNISHMENT) went 4 miles up the road to drop off a paycheck and the last red light came on about 1 mile from home and she died just in front of my house.
So Guess What? That tells me the battery is dying. Just like in a car battery, your meter may read a full charge but, if you have a bad cell in it, you are not going to be able to start it.
-
Mr MP from Brazil, as per your quote:
13,4 miles is a real scenario to me when I do not pedal together and runs at full throttle all the time, with a lot of starts and stops using my 48v12Ah with the Magic Pie, but generally I got 25km to 30km with pedaling at starts and high grade up hills.
From day one. I never ever got close to your 25 km to 30 km and I pedal assist always going up any kind of up-grade and always while starting off and I live in the country and have no stops and starts at all til I get to either town and no difference at 15 mph, 20 mph nor 25 mph.
I wish I did get your results.
Don
-
Hello Don,
I'm an Aerospace Engineer and I use a lot of what I learned everyday. I was told a lot of times that at real scenarios most of the knowledge I had from the undergraduate Mech. Engineering and aerospace masters would no be used, but in rocketry and turbo-pump design this is not correct - I really use a lot of what I learned in an everyday basis. For most of my other colleagues that gone to work at other industries it is like you described, most of them works as administrators and not designing for the aerospace industry like me.
Considering the detailed description of your use is obvious that you have some problem, the battery just can not give you enough current. I have close results with my calculations because my battery really works as expected, it is not your case. Claim your warranty!
Check this: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-24.htm
Bruno
-
Hey Bruno
Yep! Yep! Yep! Definitely Bad Battery!
Been on the charger for over 8 hours now and still trying to charge up. The charger is so "HOT", I picked it up after feeling how warm it was and could not keep my hand on the bottom of it for more than 3 seconds. It was way too hot to handle. It's always been just a tad warm and only on one side and at about the 4 hour mark would shut down. Now, over 8 hours and still going strong. Gonna leave it on and see how long it takes to shut down if it does.
I did check out that site. Pretty much what is there is general knowledge (well. to me anyway) and nothing there has any bearing on what I was trying to say. But, it's nice to know where it is for future reference.
All I wanted was how far other people are going on one charge so I could use it for a reference to my batteries' properties.
Don
-
Sorry Bruno
That site did have a lot to do with what I was saying about it must have a bad cell in it causing my problems.
Figure 2: Serial connection
with one faulty cell.
Faulty cell 3 lowers the overall voltage to 4.2V, causing the equipment to cut off prematurely.
Figure 4: Parallel connection
with one faulty cell.
A weak cell will not affect the voltage but provide a low runtime. A shorted cell could cause excessive heat and create a fire hazard.
This is what I was talking about. This is what has been happening to my battery and is just getting worse every time I use it.
Don
-
Hello Don,
The 36V16Ah have, I guess, 4 parallel groups of 10 cells in series each. So the GM batteries have serial+parallel configuration and a dead cell in one of those groups will affect as your description. Do not try to open the batter case to discovery this because you will loose you warranty - send an e-mail to Tom or the dealer you bought to see how can you ask for a replacement!
If you have some friends who plays with electric R/C airplanes you can ask them a Watt meter to test the battery for a sure conclusion, but your described experience should be enough to claim. It happens sometimes, you got bad luck! :-[
Been on the charger for over 8 hours now and still trying to charge up. The charger is so "HOT", I picked it up after feeling how warm it was and could not keep my hand on the bottom of it for more than 3 seconds. It was way too hot to handle. It's always been just a tad warm and only on one side and at about the 4 hour mark would shut down. Now, over 8 hours and still going strong. Gonna leave it on and see how long it takes to shut down if it does.
All I wanted was how far other people are going on one charge so I could use it for a reference to my batteries' properties.
This behavior should be because the BMS still trying to balance the cells and as you have a bad cell this never happens. My bike have a 12Ah battery and a 3A charger (check the output information at your charger) and this means 12Ah/3A=4 hours and generally is this time I got for a full charge, if your charger is 3A too, it should got 16Ah/3A= 5hours and 20 min
Besides the behavior you experienced, this long time for charging is another prof of a bad battery :D
Bruno
-
Hey Bruno
My battery is a 48v12ah with a 2 amp charger. If the battery was totally dead it would take 6 hours to charge. But seeing as the batteries don't go totally dead and cut out (as mine was doing) around 38 - 39 volts. Depending on how low my battery was, it would usually take mine about 4 hours.
It has been 10.5 hours on the charger and the light just started to fade out. Unplugged the charger and the light went full dim so, the charger was still giving a small charge even now.
Anyway, this thread was started for the sole purpose of trying to get Tom's attention. I got a hold of my dealer and he can't do anything unless Tom OK's the replacement. So, I started this thread and sent a copy of the original post to Tom as an email and so did my dealer and we are just waiting for some sort of contact from Tom at this time so we can get the OK and get me a new replacement.
Don
-
Don,
Just for curiosity: I think I have a different charger, check those attached photos. Mine have two leds, one red for power on and the other is orange during charge and green when fully charged. And do not be worried, it takes time but when I was researching to be a GM dealer one thing that I did note is that they always solves warranty problems - you see several examples here and at other forums of these experiences.
Gary,
I'm worried about these warranty problems, it is really necessary to wait for Tom's answer for a sure warranty problem? Because sometimes GM take a lot of time to answer :-\ Here in Brazil we have laws pertaining to the consumer that there are deadlines for solving these problems and not meeting them can result in severe fines. Can we, dealers, decide for ourselves while we wait for Tom's answer? How this works for you?
-
Hey Bruno
No Sir, not the same one at all! Mine is a plain black rectangular box with no fan or nothing labeled on the top nor sides. It's a Sans, model SSLC109V55.
I wish mine was of the quality yours is.
Don
-
Well, I gave her a try again today, just for the hell of it, and got just under 11 mile out or my battery. Had to try! Just can't believe my luck as usual. But, Hey, Not all mechanical things are made perfect and sh!t happens. Just waiting for my replacement and all will be well.
People! Don't let this thread detour you from getting a Magic Pie or just a Hub Motor from Golden Motor. The system is so cool, you will love it the first time you go for a ride on it. The motor is so quiet, you can't tell if you are coasting or actually using the system. I just happen to be one of the lucky ones' out of the many that get the luck of a bad cell and that's all.
I am in love with my Magic Pie, TOTALLY! Lots of fun and so nice to ride. I get lots of people in cars slowing down to look at the bike, while passing and they seem just amazed at the thing. Even the bikers, that live all around me, all check it out and all thumbs up from them too. Give MP a try and you will love it.
Don
-
Gary,
I'm worried about these warranty problems, it is really necessary to wait for Tom's answer for a sure warranty problem? Because sometimes GM take a lot of time to answer :-\ Here in Brazil we have laws pertaining to the consumer that there are deadlines for solving these problems and not meeting them can result in severe fines. Can we, dealers, decide for ourselves while we wait for Tom's answer? How this works for you?
Unfortunatly GM China makes the final desision on all warranty issues. If I just replace something from my stock, I risk paying for it myself. Any issue has had to go through the proper procedure of writing to Tom. He then trys suggesting a few tests and determines what the issue is. He reports to his manager and the decision is made. Last issue took 5 days, others have taken longer. GM has always come through for me, but its not like we are dealing with walmart. We are dealing with a factory on the exact opposite side of the planet (at least to me). Unfortunatly Tom does all the shipping, tracking, tech support and warranty issues and its the busiest time of year.
Do not worry though , Don and I have talked on the phone a few times and he knows I will not let him down.
Gary
-
For the 36V16Ah battery you have 576Wh of energy, so with a 750W full throttle and considering 78% of efficiency:
750W/0,78=961,54W of consuming power, so:
576Wh/961,54W=36 minutes or 0,6 hours of use.
Then you can multiply your max speed by those 0,6 hour and check if it fits your range :D if not, we need to change the efficiency value.
Since you are handy with these formulas, how far should I go?
As you probably already know, I'm running a 48v1000w setup on my bike with 2 48v12ah batterys in paralell.
I was studying the data on my CA during a ride today. At 20 kph im burning an average of 275w, at 32kph 550w. full throttle 38-40kph 1000-1100w. Even racing down a hill at over 54 kph still buning over 800 watts at full throttle. Add in any wind or wind gusts and you add at least an extra 100-200w of consumtion.
So what distance should I get at 20kph, 32 kph and flat out...
Gary
-
Gary
These are an easy way to get real close and are exactly what I was getting, with a single battery system on my MP, the first week on the road before the battery decided to go on me.
Single Battery System
(48 V X 12 Ah / 275 W) X 20 kph = 41.89 km or 26 mi
(48 V X 12 Ah / 550 W) X 32 kph = 33.51 km or 20.8 mi
(48 V X 12 Ah / 1000 W) X 40 kph = 23.04 km or 14.3 mi
Dual Battery System
(48 V X 24 Ah / 275 W) X 20 kph = 83.78 km or 52 mi
(48 V X 24 Ah / 550 W) X 32 kph = 67.03 km or 41.6 mi
(48 V X 24 Ah / 1000 W) X 40 kph = 46.08 km or 28.6 mi
Don
-
Hey Gary
Actually, I got farther at the given kph. I only weigh 88 kg (190 lbs) and I am not pulling the wattage you are at the same speed. At 40+ kph, I was getting 18 to 21 miles, depending on the winds, but that's running on all flat roads with no stop and go either. The ratting I gave above is realistic for a new battery with way under 1000 charges keeping your efficiency rating at the top level. After your efficiency rating drops when you get closer to the 800 or so mark, these distances will drop accordingly.
As you have seen with the difference between your wife's bike @ 36V16Ah and she only weighing at the 100 lb area and you using two 48V12Ah batteries giving you 24 Ah your in the #$% lb area. Your wife, being so light, is pulling considerably less wattage than you so of coarse she is going to go farther with less power. That is why I was getting good distance out of my MP because I don't weigh as much as you meaning I am only pulling around 600 or so watts at 40 kph. The average person at about 160 lbs should in theory only pull 250 to 300 watts at 32 kph (20 mph) but this still depends on wind, uphill or downhill, total weight, type of tires used etc.
"This part of the reply is only for new owners and potential owners to use as a reference as I know you know all about this weight and wattage draws as we have talked about this on the phone."
Don
-
Do not worry though , Don and I have talked on the phone a few times and he knows I will not let him down.
Gary
I'm sure about this ;) I just wanted to learn more about you experience with warranty issues! This will be very helpfull, thank you!
Bruno
-
Well written Don,
Now we just have to figure out at what point the BMS kicks out the batteries. The BMS does not let you drain the batteries completely. I believe the BMS only allows you to use about 75-80 percent of your power before kicking out to protect the battery. I beleive it works by voltage which I thought was around 38 volts but read somewhere it is at 42 volts. Anyone know what percentages or voltages the BMS kicks out at?
Gary
-
Well written Don,
Now we just have to figure out at what point the BMS kicks out the batteries. The BMS does not let you drain the batteries completely. I believe the BMS only allows you to use about 75-80 percent of your power before kicking out to protect the battery. I beleive it works by voltage which I thought was around 38 volts but read somewhere it is at 42 volts. Anyone know what percentages or voltages the BMS kicks out at?
Gary
I don't know what the voltage is, but it would be for the first individual cell to fall below a certain threshold, not the overall battery voltage. The bms is to protect all the cells. If just one falls below the lvc, the whole battery is turned off. My old GM battery didn't have a bms, so while the overall voltage may have been above overall lvc, some of the cells were pushed too far and they died, leaked and wrecked the whole battery.
Muzza.au
-
Sorry Gary
This reply was for Bruno from Brazil:
In the future Don, you can always go back and modify or delete any of your posts. I do that constantly as my typnig skils an speeling is perthetic.
Gary
-
Hey Gary
LMAO
In the future Don, you can always go back and modify or delete any of your posts. I do that constantly as my typnig skils an speeling is perthetic.
Don
-
Well written Don,
Now we just have to figure out at what point the BMS kicks out the batteries. The BMS does not let you drain the batteries completely. I believe the BMS only allows you to use about 75-80 percent of your power before kicking out to protect the battery. I beleive it works by voltage which I thought was around 38 volts but read somewhere it is at 42 volts. Anyone know what percentages or voltages the BMS kicks out at?
Gary
It depends on the battery.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6645-assembled-fechtergoodrum-lifepo4-bmss-available (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6645-assembled-fechtergoodrum-lifepo4-bmss-available)
We're using a 2.1V low volt trip point for A123 Systems, PSI, Headway, and other cylindrical cells and 2.7V for Thunder Sky and other large format cells. 2.5V LVC will be an option for large format cells once the back-ordered parts arrive.
LiMN
Description
Safe chemistry LiMN 3.7V rechargeable battery is now available in 18650 size. These cells can handle high amperage and is safe to use in series / multi-cell applications. Can be charge with any LiIon battery charger with 4.2V output.
Specifications:
Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 1600mAH
Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
How many series cells do the 12ah packs have?
Multiply it by 2.5v.
-
Thanks Leslie
That certainly clears things up, hmm Huh? You guys certainly do get technical on me sometimes. Thats ok, it's not your fault, I'm just not as tech savy as others.
I was thinking more about Don's problem. I have 3 GM ebikes, a a 48v1000w Joy Ebike, a 48v1000w schwinn hybrid conversion and a 36v500w kranked mountain bike conversion. Normally in my experience I find that when the power is running low the controller BMS kicks out when you go below a certain voltage on a hard pressed throttle at take off. This is usually my first indication it is time to head home. I then ease the throttle at take off peddling. I can go along way using this method and always get home. In Don's situation it seems his battery BMS kicks out before the controller BMS does. It seems like he is still above the voltage threashold of the controller BMS, but one of his cells has caused the battery BMS to kick out. He never gets the chance to ease the throttle to get himself home. He is just dead on the road.
Am I thinking correctly?
Gary
-
I've had a 24Volt on a MP fitted to an old 70c Ladies Bike for about two months. I'm a portly 108 Kg and every night I ride it down to my sports club to guzzle a few beers and exchange a few lies with my mates. Journey is a hilly two miles each way. Upon returning I put it on the charger and it takes exactly 1.5 Hours (90 minutes) to charge up. I can set my clock by it. The charger gets extremely warm too. The furthest I've ridden it is about 10 miles, very hilly and it went dead at half a mile from home. I'd like more range, but that's a battery thing, not the MP.
I'm extremely happy with my MP, it's fun, it's cheap and mine has not missed a beat since I've put it together, in fact I'd bet the thing would still be doing the same thing years from now!
Bernie
-
Ive got this little 500 watt brush controller that limits the throttle in LVC, You can still ride the bike until the bike is lucky to get 3 kph but the pack voltage wont go lower than the set amount.
It strange as the pack gets flat. You can pedal the thing up to speed and it will hold it for some time.
-
I've had a 24Volt on a MP fitted to an old 70c Ladies Bike for about two months. I'm a portly 108 Kg and every night I ride it down to my sports club to guzzle a few beers and exchange a few lies with my mates. Journey is a hilly two miles each way. Upon returning I put it on the charger and it takes exactly 1.5 Hours (90 minutes) to charge up. I can set my clock by it. The charger gets extremely warm too. The furthest I've ridden it is about 10 miles, very hilly and it went dead at half a mile from home. I'd like more range, but that's a battery thing, not the MP.
I'm extremely happy with my MP, it's fun, it's cheap and mine has not missed a beat since I've put it together, in fact I'd bet the thing would still be doing the same thing years from now!
Bernie
What type of 24v batteries do you have and how big are they?
How fast do you go.
A larger wheel is going to consume more power but may go a little faster on lower volts than a small wheel.
More volts will make you go faster and to a certain level, 12v up from 24v may get you a little further too.
10 miles on a small 24v pack using a 700c pie wheel sounds close enough. I could get 14 miles on a little 24v 12ah 200 watt brushed bike. I suspect you have a 16ah battery.
It is my opinion Another 24v 12ah battery in parrallel on your 700c Pie wheel would get you a little more than double distance.
Do you want more volts (speed) or more (amp hours) distance.
-
Hey Gary
In case you didn't get your full answer on the cut of point for the battery packs, here is a quick run down. (I was too lazy to do it earlier?)
Golden Moter uses 3.8V-4Ah cells in their packs.
48V12Ah = 12Ah / 4.0Ah per cell = 3 cells/cell packs.
48V / 3.8V per cell = 12.63 cells/cell packs. They would most likely use 13 to even things out plus the BMS takes 1 volt away before the voltage passes through to the outlet plug.
13 cells X 3 cells = 39 total cells.
13 total cells per pack X 2.5V (the minimum discharge voltage per cell) = 32.5V minimum discharge per cell pack.
36V16Ah = 16Ah / 4.0Ah per cell = 4 cells/cell packs.
36V / 3.8V per cell = 9.47 cell/cells packs. (As above, 10 cells).
10 cells X 4 cells = 40 total cells.
10 total cells per pack X 2.5V (the minimum discharge voltage per cell) = 25.0V minimum discharge per cell pack.
You can verify this my checking the total voltage after a full charge of your battery.
48V battery = 4.2V (maximum charge per cell) X 13 cells (total cells per pack) = 54.6 volts at full charge. Hence: "The 48 volt battery charger charges at 54.6 volts."
As we can see, the 48V12Ah gets to shut down at the minimum of 32.5 Volts and the 36V16Ah gets it at 25.0 Volts. Now, the BMS that they use and have set up, may be set to shut down a couple of volts higher than that to insure the safety of their batteries. I tried to measure the kick out voltage on mine, but with a bad cell the BMS is going to measure the voltage of all cells. If one is bad and reading lower than the others, the BMS is going to kick out according to the lowest cell/block/pack. Mine was kicking out a 37 and 38 volts. But this is reading at the plug, outside the BMS. With these voltages, we know that the BMS is kicking out much closer to the above voltages.
I have searched all through GM to find their settings for the full battery packs, but to no avail. But, in my endeavor to find the settings, I seen that most other companies have their BMS's kicking out at an average of 1.5 to 2 volts above the minimum discharge rate and a couple are pushing it nice and close to the above. Below are the full spec's of the battery cells that Golden Motor uses to figure out the settings for the other battery packs.
Hope that helps
Don
-
Here are the full spec's on the cells used by Golden Motor. They have no spec's on their full Battery Packs but, with a little math you can figure it out.
Lithium Ion Battery Cell
Product Details
Place of Origin Jiangsu, China (Mainland)
Brand Name GoldenMotor
Model Number 26650
Type Li-Ion
Application Electric Vehicles
Size 65mm
Voltage 3.8V
Weight 92g
Detailed Product Description
highest energy density
cell level safe design
cell weight: 92g only!!
long lifespan
Lithium ion rechargeable battery, 26650 size, LiPF6 electrolyte, Manganese Spinel structure cathode.
High energy density lithium ion battery cell.
Cell capacity: 3.8V 4AH
Cell diameter: 26.24 ± 0.16 mm (top end), 26.16 ± 0.10 mm (bottom end)
Cell height: 65.05 + 0.10/-0.15 mm
Cell weight: 92g
Cell specifications
1a. Rated charge(4A) Limiting 4.0 A, 120 min and constant 4.2V charge at 23±2°C.
1b. Recommended charge Reference 1a
2. Rated discharge Constant 0.8 A discharge until 2.5V at 23±2°C.
3. Rated capacity 4.0Ah Minimum of rated discharge capacity after recommended
charge.
4. Nominal voltage 3.8V Mean voltage during rated discharge after rated charge.
5. Shipping voltage 4.03±0.01V Nominal. Approximate state of charge = 80%.
6. Internal resistance at shipping 23±1 m? By AC 1 kHz.
7. End of charge voltage 4.20 ± 0.05V
8. End of discharge voltage 2.5V. Discharge voltage used for determination of rated
capacity.
9. Charging time 120min Rated charge.
10. Maximum continuous charging current 6.5A
Maximum continuous discharging current 10A
Maximum pulse discharging current 40A
11. Operating temperature
Charging 0 ~ 45°C
Discharging -20 ~ 60°C
12. Storage temperature
-20 ~ 60°C
Recommended temperature for long term storage is
23±2°C
13. Shelf life 6 months Typical value at 23±2°C, from ship state.
14. Self-discharge rate /month ?0.5%
For Your Reference
Don
-
10. Maximum continuous charging current 6.5A Maximum continuous discharging current 10A Maximum pulse discharging current 40A
This means that for a 12Ah battery you have:
- maximum continuos discharge 30A
- maximum pulse discharge 120A
And for a 16Ah
- maximum continuos discharge 40A
- maximum pulse discharge 160A
The charge rate it is important to keep low so the life cicle is extended, I know that the regenerative is limited to 5A, but not sure about this number.
My watt meter shows me that with my pie the maximum current is 30A with is ok! Nice to know!
But without use my battery discharge much more than 0.5%, not sure how much, but is more. This could be because of the BMS system?
-
Hey Bruno
The calculations don't work out the same way for Max pulse discharge.
This means that for a 12Ah battery you have:
* maximum continuos discharge 30A
* maximum pulse discharge 120A
And for a 16Ah
* maximum continuous discharge 40A
* maximum pulse discharge 160A
The charge rate it is important to keep low so the life cicle is extended, I know that the regenerative is limited to 5A, but not sure about this number.
My watt meter shows me that with my pie the maximum current is 30A with is ok! Nice to know!
But without use my battery discharge much more than 0.5%, not sure how much, but is more. This could be because of the BMS system?
For; Max Continuous current, Max Continuous discharge current and Max Charge current, the calculations are totally different.
Using their spec's, I have an average of what they have after the BMS "which is off the wall" . But, after comparing with all their "sayings", is's 'ahhh' close.
Remember their are somethings you can not compound because of "series or parallel" configurations.
For instance; #C X mah / 1000 = Total Max current Discharge current (Amps). (This is before it has gone through the BMS).
Just remember, the BMS restricts the current in more ways than most can think of.
I think it was you who said: "you were getting 30A max off of your system on a 16 Ah battery". Well, with the proper calculations for their cells, the actual Max Continuous is only +/-40A for a 16Ah and +/-30A For a 12Ah (This is using actual calculations, not GM's). If this the fact, you are getting just under what you are suppose to be getting, which is good, 'cause like me, you don't want to run your battery at the max and damage the thing.
Now, they advertise their ratings at and come out to be 1.625C for Max Continuous charging = 6.5 Amps charge current, 2.5C Max Continuous discharge and 10C Max pulse discharge. But, after searching all the spec's on their cells, the actual is: 1 - 1.5C for Max Charge Current = 4 -5 Amps Max charge Current, 2C for Max Continuous Discharge and 5C for Max Continuous Pulse Discharge.
This being, it would make your diagnosis above, one half (1/2) " give or take a few", lower than "MAX DISCHARGE CURRENT".
"Just because you have a long series of batteries at a certain current for recharge, don't mean you want to charge it fast with a lot of current just because you want to. To do so, could possibly damage the cells and will lower the longevity of the battery." (This was just because of a lot of posts all over the place for those who want to charge fast.) The slower the charge, the longer the charge will last and mainly the longer the battery life.)
Don
-
Sorry Bruno
But the calculations don't work the same way.
This means that for a 12Ah battery you have:
* maximum continuos discharge 30A
* maximum pulse discharge 120A
And for a 16Ah
* maximum continuos discharge 40A
* maximum pulse discharge 160A
The charge rate it is important to keep low so the life cicle is extended, I know that the regenerative is limited to 5A, but not sure about this number.
My watt meter shows me that with my pie the maximum current is 30A with is ok! Nice to know!
But without use my battery discharge much more than 0.5%, not sure how much, but is more. This could be because of the BMS system?
For; Max Continuous current, Max Continuous discharge current and Max Charge current, the calculations are totally different.
Using their spec's, I have an average of what they have after the BMS "which is off the wall" . But, after comparing with all their "sayings", is's 'ahhh' close.
Remember their are somethings you can not compound because of "series or parallel" configurations.
For instance; #C X mah / 1000 = Total Max current Discharge current (Amps). (This is before it has gone through the BMS).
Just remember, the BMS restricts the current in more ways than most can think of.
I think it was you who said: "you were getting 30A max off of your system on a 12 Ah battery". Well, with the proper calculations for their cells, the actual Max Continuous is only +/-40A for a 16Ah and =/-30A For a 12AhA, MOST LIKEY A LOT MORE - (This is using actual calculations, not GM's). If this the fact, you are getting exactly what you are suppose to be getting.
If you are getting 30A on your bike, then you are with in the "Max Area" of the pulse with-drawl of the battery. Due to the settings of the BMS you are just hitting outside the Max Continuous Discharge and are using more power than you should be really using and more power than you may really want to be using in total wattage/amps to conserve power for distance.
Now, they advertise their ratings at and come out to be 1.625C for Max Continuous charging = 6.5 Amps charge current, 2.5C Max Continuous discharge and 10C Max pulse discharge. But after searching all the spec's on their cells, the actual is: 1 - 1.5C for Max Charge Current = 4 -5 Amps Max charge Current, 2C for Max Continuous Discharge and 5C for Max Continuous Pulse Discharge.
This being, it would make your diagnosis above, one half (1/2) " give or take a few", lower than "MAX DISCHARGE CURRENT".
"Just because you have a long series of batteries at a certain current for recharge, don't mean you want to charge it fast with a lot of current just because you want to. To do so, will lower the longevity of the battery. ( This was just because of a lot of posts all over the place for those who want to charge fast.) The slower the charge, the longer the charge will last and mainly the longer the battery will last'.
Totally too tired tonight to give you the spec's. (Helped a friend move Thurs. and Fri. + my couple of side jobs today).
I will in the morning.
Don
One should should stick close to energy density and watts IMO.
Any given pack can only take so many watts and high temperature of pack damages the cells.
Lithium energy density approximates to 460wh per KG including and internal resistance you might land 440 watts out.
440 watts / 3.2v = 136 amps = per KG and 13 amps per 100 grams.
A 4 ah cells weighs approx 100 g and a 12 ah cell should output 4x13= 52 amps. This equates to less than 13 mins of run time, and as the cell discharges the internal resistance increases creating a higher voltage drop thus causing the cell to LVC and have unnecessary damage..
Voltage is not definable by any thing than the resistance that it travels along Really the smallest volt = infinite @ zero resistance and this explains why ion propulsion can propel objects at light speed in the presence of very little resistance or a vacuum.
Charging is the not the same thing..
You can charge a cell at 3.2v a 1 amp. 32v @ 100ma 320v @ 10ma and so on.
As long as you do not exceed the rated end voltage and charge wattage the cell will enjoy a long cycle life. This is how cells charging ability should be measured in watts not anything else IMO.
Cells degrade from heat.
There is no science around centigrade or Fahrenheit other one was the boiling point of water and another the flash point of paper. Its about time we made our own constant here. Every material inside the battery in the line of charge has resistance or lack of it creating a solid circuit. You could even look at each cell like a light bulb with 40 milliohm resistance producing heat.
4ah 100 gram cell
Cell discharged =2.4v,
Cell rests at 3.2v,
Floats at 3.4v
Cell resting = 0 watts = no heat
Floats at 3.4v @ 160ma
A typical cell cycle discharged @ 70% = 2.4v and charging on bulk 3.6v @ 1.6 amp charge = 1.2v over potential @ 1.6A = 1.92 watts between the 100gram plates.
But
About .4 ohm resistance per cell @ 3.6v will allow 9 amps into the 100 gram cell and with the 1.2v over potential = 10.8 watts.
If the cell heats to 35c with 2 watts how much will it heat at 11 watts. Linear model suggests 7 times the heat at 9 amps bringing cell temp over 70 degrees C this is way already too hot.
Cells are insulated and like military spec dictates more than double you ratings. With the heat no where to go heat pools up so 70c heads way over 140 degrees. OOOZE of stank and smokin. This is why charging is slower.
More about discharge
On the above math a 4 ah at 70% cell can produce 8.96 watts per hour per cell. A charged 12ah cell will produce 25 watts per cell. 15 12ah cells to 70% dod will produce 403 watts.
At 100% discharge (dead cell) it equates to 12.8 watts per 4 ah cell X 3 parallel = 38.4 watts X 15 series cells (48v pack) = 576 watts
To test if I got it right. 48X12ah = 576 watts.
I nailed this one.
However getting accurate charging specs needs to be worked on the materials used in the battery and is way more complicated than I want to work out the physics to ATM.
The battery life.
As the battery gets older so to the charge rating should change. Even on a hot or cold day you can milk the most out your pack if you know everything there is about what is going on.
In the hot summer you could limit the voltage per cell by .07v and by .1. Around 3.5v on a really hot day. In the cold you could push the cell to 3.7v.
You could go a 3.4v float charge at 10 amps and watch the current drop to 1 amp when its charged.
I used a 72v homemade voltage doubler on my 48v pack. I limited the volts to float at 54v with a regulator, and it pulled 3 amps from 72v supply @ 2.5 amps. My battery was full charged in almost the same time. Placing the charger I bought over the pack proved it was full as the light went green immediately.
High current at constant float voltages. This is the safest way to charge as you can not ever exceed the cell voltage. Even if you give the the pack 20 amps will not draw any more current than it needs to stay at float but when the battery is flat it will draw as much as you want to give it.
Constant current at bulk voltages is safe as long as the charger is a good one.
I think lithium charges fast with constant current charging and better with constant voltage. Many charger designers use both to maintain cycle life while fast charging.
Be careful charging too slow at bulk voltage mode at low amps as the battery can hang at 3.6v for too long and get warm and if electrolyte vents anything you lose life fast..
-
Finally!!!
Got my OK today for the replacement of my bad battery.
I can't wait to see how my MP actually is suppose to run with a good battery. LMAO!!
Thanks again Gary!!!
Don
-
Nice to know!!
As I said, sometimes it takes some time but they always solve warranty problemas ;D
-
LMAO
-
It also depends on who your dealer is too!
Don
-
Thanks again Gary!!!
No problem Don, You deserve a replacement. Now we just have to get it to you :)
Gary
-
I'm sure about this ;) I just wanted to learn more about you experience with warranty issues! This will be very helpfull, thank you!
Bruno
Hi Bruno
Just for your refference. I had a few recent warranty issues. They went through the regular process of emailing Tom, Tom suggested a few tests. The results were given to Philip and he approved replacement in all issues. The replacement Items have been added to my next sea shipment. I can now replace the items with my customers taking the failed items back. I'll hold the failed items until a request from GM China to group ship them back for quality control and check.
To date, my warranty issues have been resolved 100 percent of the time.
Gary
-
I'm sure about this ;) I just wanted to learn more about you experience with warranty issues! This will be very helpfull, thank you!
Bruno
Hi Bruno
Just for your refference. I had a few recent warranty issues. They went through the regular process of emailing Tom, Tom suggested a few tests. The results were given to Philip and he approved replacement in all issues. The replacement Items have been added to my next sea shipment. I can now replace the items with my customers taking the failed items back. I'll hold the failed items until a request from GM China to group ship them back for quality control and check.
To date, my warranty issues have been resolved 100 percent of the time.
Gary
We here get the feeling that the batteries are pretty reliable.
Is there any rough estimate based upon your current sales on the DOA percentage of these packs. The consensus seems to be that all lithium energy storage manufacturers are making improvements all the time.
-
We here get the feeling that the batteries are pretty reliable.
Is there any rough estimate based upon your current sales on the DOA percentage of these packs. The consensus seems to be that all lithium energy storage manufacturers are making improvements all the time.
This is my first battery issue. The batteries are very reliable, many people email me after purchasing a battery to tell me how impressed they are with the performance.
Gary
-
A note for Tom:
I was thinking, they should have a "Depot" of some sort in North America, just for the sole purpose of warranty replacements. To have customers "that already are patrons", and have to let them wait an undetermined amount of time for warranty issues is totally insane and just not right at all. When ordering the kit at first, it's bad enough, and yet expected to wait for equipment when it is really a custom order of sorts. But, to wait so long for replacements is an other story! They really need to do something about it!
Try and tell someone that buys a car, TV or what ever from a store or dealer in Canada or U.S., that they have to wait for weeks, "or worse, longer" to get a replacement or just fixed and see what happens. It is a real pain in the *## to have to wait so long for replacements. The worse thing is sitting back and looking at my bike just collecting dust and she is just begging to go for a ride!
Anyway, Thanks for the wait!! (Makes me feel like I am back in the Army again......FEverything there was hurry up and wait too! ::)
Don
-
Sometimes it takes weeks just to get a reply in EMAIL from ANY of the US dealers.
You usually have to cc: EVERY GM dealer, including GM china, just to get a response within a WEEK?
I've sent 4 emails about a replacement controller I received which is NOT working properly. Have I gotten even a reply back, that they even got the email? NO!
-
Sometimes it takes weeks just to get a reply in EMAIL from ANY of the US dealers.
You usually have to cc: EVERY GM dealer, including GM china, just to get a response within a WEEK?
I've sent 4 emails about a replacement controller I received which is NOT working properly. Have I gotten even a reply back, that they even got the email? NO!
I am sorry you are having such a hard time of it.
What is the story with this controller. I know you're not going to be happy until your on the road. Cant give up now. It must be something else wrong with your system.
Check all your connections, Take your time. Recheck and set the cables right.
-
Sometimes it takes weeks just to get a reply in EMAIL from ANY of the US dealers.
You usually have to cc: EVERY GM dealer, including GM china, just to get a response within a WEEK?
I've sent 4 emails about a replacement controller I received which is NOT working properly. Have I gotten even a reply back, that they even got the email? NO!
I am sorry you are having such a hard time of it.
What is the story with this controller. I know you're not going to be happy until your on the road. Cant give up now. It must be something else wrong with your system.
Check all your connections, Take your time. Recheck and set the cables right.
It's in an always on condition.
(i.e. The G wire doesn't even have to be connected for motor controller to run....)
What effect does this have?
TWOFOLD.
1.) I can't "turn off" the bike, without disconnecting the battery.
2.) I can't set the alarm.
The fact that something is wrong is NOT the issue, but the length of time to fet a response out of anyone isw ridiculous.
Nothing is wrong with my connections, I've been working with electronics for 20+ years, and have a degree in physics. I know when something is wrong on the hardware side or connection side.
Please stop saying that you think I keep missing something, or that I'm not being thorough enough.
Trust me I know what I'm doing.
I make sure I check everything THREE times before going into "ok, something is wrong with the hardware" mode.
I shouldn't have to fix this stuff myself, especially when it's directly from the factory like this and UNTESTED BEFORE being sent out.
So unless you have anything USEFUL to add, please don't reply.
-
So unless you have anything USEFUL to add, please don't reply.
Rude! Leslie is one of the top people that help out people in this forum. Maybe you should post your credentials first when you write a message. That way people won't start with the simple approach before going into more detailed tests. Why would anyone want to help you now?
You usually have to cc: EVERY GM dealer, including GM china, just to get a response within a WEEK?
I answer every email everyday and most within an hour. If this is not true I'm sure someone here would dispute it. This is just another exaggeration of many I have seen in your posts. You have never CC'd or emailed me other then to complain about shipping costs and how dealing directly with the factory is better. How is that going for you anyway?
Gary
-
I'm impressed with the "double" battery - putting them in parallel to get double amps. How is this done and can you decide for each trip wether you want to bring one or both?
Can you also put two 24V in serial to get 48V and then still choose whether you want to bring one or both batteries on a trip - or would this be dumb?
-
I'm impressed with the "double" battery - putting them in parallel to get double amps. How is this done and can you decide for each trip wether you want to bring one or both?
Can you also put two 24V in serial to get 48V and then still choose whether you want to bring one or both batteries on a trip - or would this be dumb?
If both batteries are the same voltage and Ah rating, they can be connected in series or parallel and can be easily switched using a heavy duty double pole double throw switch as shown here:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/series-parallelswitch.JPG)
When switched to parallel mode, either of the batteries could be removed if required.
Different Ah batteries can be used in parallel as long as they are the same type and voltage, but it is not such a good idea to run them in series, as the smaller capacity battery will run down much quicker.
Different voltage batteries of similar Ah ratings can be used in series, but not parallel.
I have found that regenerative braking produces more Amps, is much more aggressive and reduces your speed a lot more using 24V than it does with 48V, so simply switching voltages also allows two different levels of regen to be used.
(Unfortunately regen is not an option with minihubs)
Hopefully that answers your not so dumb question. ;)
Alan
-
So unless you have anything USEFUL to add, please don't reply.
Rude! Leslie is one of the top people that help out people in this forum. Maybe you should post your credentials first when you write a message. That way people won't start with the simple approach before going into more detailed tests. Why would anyone want to help you now?
You usually have to cc: EVERY GM dealer, including GM china, just to get a response within a WEEK?
I answer every email everyday and most within an hour. If this is not true I'm sure someone here would dispute it. This is just another exaggeration of many I have seen in your posts. You have never CC'd or emailed me other then to complain about shipping costs and how dealing directly with the factory is better. How is that going for you anyway?
Gary
Looks its alright Gary. This man is feeling pretty bad ATM and the post shows his frustration with his situation. Its like the big tough biker getting all agro because he was called girly. The two contradict. He didnt post anything that should get me upset. There is a lot worse things people have said and done to me.
Sangesf is a nice person feeling very bad about his purchase, otherwise his post would be much worse.
I think you are a nice person too Gary. My GM dealer in Australia was the same. Helpful and doing it for the industry in the hope that his efforts towards EV tech will lead to a better cleaner future..
It is hard for good people in the EV industry to get anywhere and I hand respect to those who take on this challenge and give it their best. This is why I support GM and the dealers in the hope their companies will thrive and place much competition on the oil industries.
The method of extracting oil and transporting it has reached its redline. The ships are getting ridiculously large. The demand is outsourcing humans ability to provide. Its not even a question of how much oil there is left, or how much is it creating carbon emission's. It's about what happens when a oil tanker sinks or a pipe ruptures.. The amount in cargo theses days is over what is safe for the environment and no mistakes can be made ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
The latest spill looks like it going to compare the intentional spill caused in Kuwait by Iraq army. One ooops in Mexico = a deliberate attempt to destroy and entire oil field in Kuwait.
Ok back on topic.
This guy wants a working wheel. When maybe after a break we can discuss the new controller and possibly his throttle.
-
You know what, I'm thinking about it now and I guess I can understand lashing out. It just seemed kind of rude and at home here I always stand up for my "Bros". But then when i'm angry and feel taken advantage of I lash out, it just seemed like a cheap shot and didnt seem acceptable to me.
Gary
-
You know what, I'm thinking about it now and I guess I can understand lashing out. It just seemed kind of rude and at home here I always stand up for my "Bros". But then when i'm angry and feel taken advantage of I lash out, it just seemed like a cheap shot and didnt seem acceptable to me.
Gary
Its all good Gary. Ive lashed out myself and stood up in for my Bros too. Its good that we can create a community that isn't so precious yet respectable.
His post wasn't over the top but did indicate the frustration he is experience.
Either way he needs this assistance, and I am sure we can sort it all out.
You got to put yourself in front of his bike and understand the mess he is in ATM. I think I have had more failures learning this than the average user.
I spent weeks browsing the forums and learning before I would even ask a question.
In fact this is the very first post I did in any EV forum about the subject.
Recently I’ve been experimenting with ultra caps, they charge ultra fast and seem to have enough capacity to at least hold more than a few regen brake charges. One main problem is that capacitors in series divide the farads by amount of caps to an average. EG. 5X@55farad in series = 11 farads which is a bummer really. A good balance system between each leg of the capacitors may improve the situation.
Look, at the moment Im just playing around with super caps, leds and USB switch phase charging. Caps do not charge like batteries and a good fast switch phase or pure DC feed is the best way to charge these suckers.
My guess is that Ultra caps is the best answer to the regen efficiency loses and you can take advantage of the regen with the next pull on the throttle.
There is a site called http://www.batcap.net (http://www.batcap.net) these are very specialized audio capacitors banks that can charge and discharge at extremely fast rates with phenomenal current passage in both directions. Normal super caps would burn out in audio applications, however regen IMO is not so dependant on the terminals being so big chunky. These bat cap things by the look are already balanced and a few small banks IMO opinion would be plenty enough to improve regen to over 80% (pulling figures out of the air) but prolly 99.999% improvements ;).
one idea that comes to mind even a regen mod that charges 30 X 1 farad 5v caps set in paralell and placed in series bumping up to a 5v over volt and use the potential storage as an overvolt. Im pretty sure that the current that each can handle is around one amp and 30 farads with out doing the math is more than acceptable for regen, those batcaps plenty more ;P.
What happena when the 5v potential is used?
This mod would have to be patched into the controllers regen system as after the VDC main input so that the batteries are isolated from the caps during regen. Then when the potential is used the controller isolates the caps until next regen brake....
Maybe a little involved but none the less it would work very well if built into the system as default and an upgrage optional regen pack to connect to the controller would at least validate and dignify the regen..
I think I made every mistake under the sun before this post and used these forums to help fix my bike.
-
Hey Gary
This one works like the old one did when I first got it but, goes a bit further. The old one is bad! Try it out and see. It will seem OK when you first start out but then the thing just drops and no distance nor power. By the end I was only getting 5 to 6 miles and that is pedaling most of the way and only getting 18 to 20 mph at the max then drop off and lucky to see 11 mph. If I would stop for a 5 or so min. break the battery would rejuvinate it self and go a short distance then shut off again.
The new one is running great. I tried it out Saturday and went to town that's 11 miles round trip. After I got home the full light was just going dull. After sitting here for 25 to 30 min. I decided to see if it would go a round trip again. Tried it and got most of the way back. She died about 2 or so miles from home so I got 19.5 or so miles out of her. Pretty good I thought! and that was pushing her at full throttle to see how she would act. I am going to try her out again and stay at about 20 mph and see how far she will go. Then I want to try changing my tires back to my old ones as see what happens. If better, good and if not, well I will just have to put these ones back on. But, I think these new tires I had put on have a bit more road resistance so, I'm gonna try as see what happens.
Tomorrow I am going to the other town that is 20 miles round trip and stay at 20 mph and see how she acts and let you know how it goes. Then I will change my tires and let you know how it went after that.
Anyway all is well and I am very happy with the new battery. There is a very, very ,very big difference than the old one and that's for sure.
Thanks for all the help
Don
-
Oh yeah Gary, I for got something.
I wasn't thinking when I had to go to the post office and pick up the new battery and just grabbed the old one and didn't bring the second key for it. I will mail it to you the next time I am in town so you have it. I have no use for it!
Don
-
Take it easy for a little bit on a fresh battery so you can cut out some surface area on the batteries plates. You should see the capacity increase over a week then give it some bigger longer loads.
Best of luck.
-
Now, does this apply to LiIon/LiFePo batteries? ???
Your statement about 'cut some surface area on the battery plates' does indeed apply to lead acid batteries, but... ?!
(or is it just me that hasn't followed the thread here, and he has some LA batteries? ::) )
-
I have read somewhere that new Li batteries do require a break in. Nothing concrete. Id say every battery etches the surface area when you charge it until it dies and displaces some of itself into the electrolyte when discharged. Otherwise it would last forever.
I think its energy related though and voltage drops due to more resistance when the plates are new.
(http://www.mpoweruk.com/images/cycle_life.gif)
It shows it a little bit here.
-
Yes I do know about this and thanks for the luck. During all my searches and checking out all avenues and products before I bought the MP and my battery, all manufacturers of lifepo4 batteries said the same thing of their products. They all said that a new battery will have a break in time usually five or more full discharges and charges then the battery will be at a good charge capacity and then get better over time til they start to drop in total capacity. Some said that the drop in capacity would be anywhere from 500 to 800 charges. Pretty much as it shows in your chart above. So by rights the capacity I am going to get right now is pretty much what I should be getting after 500 or hopefully more charges. ???
Don
-
Hey Guys!
Did pretty a good running on my MP the other day doing the 20 mph (32 kph) test. I got over 26 miles on it and didn't die yet, she still had yellow light but, was too tired to keep on going any farther at that time. I am going to take it to work on Thursday (The weather is suppose to be real nice) and that is 16 miles one way and have to make a small swoop on the way back then see how far she goes then. I will keep a post an update and maybe this will help others compare to mine and see what they get and go from there.
Again a Special Thank You to Gary! You didn't have to do what you did but, it was totally appreciated. (Do pretend I still have an Email). ;)
"I'd like to see others post their results and let everyone know what they get so as to let us all know what the end results are."
Don
-
Hey Gary and everyone else!
Gary, I told you about the charging problems I was having with my system? Well, I had always charged my battery by plugging the charger into the wall first, then into/onto the battery secondly. After talking with you a bit back, you said; "Plug the charger into the battery first then plug the charger after". Well I did that for the last while, thinking maybe all I have been taught was off but more, that maybe it's the type of battery (LiFePo4 type) that needs things done differently. From what I have experienced lately, I was right in the first place.
I was charging my battery by doing it my normal way, the wall first then the battery, thus the charger reads the battery then turns on as needed. Doing it this way, I was getting (depending on the winds) 20 to 23 miles per charge at full speed all the way through with no problems til' she stops. After doing it the other way of plugging the battery in first then the charger into the wall, for some reason, I was only getting 16 miles average and then stop dead. I know this sounds off the wall but, that is what I have been getting!
After we talked on the phone this morning about my order for a second battery for my bike, I sat back and thought about what I was doing differently than when I first got my replacement battery and why I was getting such a difference in mileage. So, I tried it my way and went for a run to do a couple of errands and got my old 21 miles on a charge by plugging the charger first into the wall. Seems the charger needs to be active to know what the battery really needs. It seems that way anyways? Well, I got good or better distance out of her after changing it my normal way, any how. Give it a try and see how it works on yours! You may get better running's out of yours too!
Anyway, I can't wait to get my second battery! I am going to the bank tomorrow and do the transfer to you so I can get my parts as fast as possible. With 20 amps continuous at 12 ah and 30 amps at 16 ah, I can't wait to see how she runs with 24 amp hour! Anyway, I have sent an email to you with some info and if you can get back to me soon, it would be appreciated.
Don
-
Its good to have the current ready to go downhill not up.
Meaning I would plug into the wall first and then to the pack.
All the regulators and chargers I build and stuff I always put a blocking diode on the output if the built device had to go on a battery, EG The output conncects to a battery that has its own power source, Just to block the battery current surging back into the circiut if the regulator becomes unplugged from its input power source.
Current can only go in or out never both ways and that depends on your voltage out to in. You can have 1 milliion amps at 48v and 100ma at 48.1v and the current will always travel towards the lower voltages.
Just think about how much current your pack gives compared to the charger and where that current wants tyo go when the charger is switched off the wall.
With no higher voltages present in the charger the current wants to run backwards,
The other way, the chargers voltage when switched on is another very solid protection for the charger. Most of the diodes modern charger are up for a few good hits but they are not light speed and I always fear that some spikes get through.
Like intermitant GPO wall connections "zshhttt zshhht" can be hazardous to the output switch because this arc behavior could well exceed the switching speed of any passive component that we need to operate under no input power.
Just my 2c.
-
Yeah I just thought of the cure and probably another 100 folk before me.
Is have the charger battery powered and not AC powered.
This way you can use fets as protection and king of the current is in controll.
Only then I would plug the charger into the pack first.
-
Hi Don
I have tried both methods on and off now for about a week and I can find no difference. Since I have my chargers permanently mounted on my bike I think Ill just stick to my method. I do enjoy just pulling the plug out of the pouch and plugging it in to the nearest receptacle in a very care free manour ;D . If you look at the picture you can see I have one charger mounted in a pouch under the seat another in a pouch on the front handle bars and the pouch at the bottom by the pedals contains a 20 foot cord for plugging it in. Anyway, the only thing I really ever notice is the more I run down my batteries before charging the better the charge I get.
Gary