Author Topic: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response  (Read 4010 times)

Offline Mherm

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Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« on: February 23, 2020, 10:50:02 PM »
Hi all,

The first test ride with my newly installed Edge went fine but now I'm not getting a response from the twist throttle.
I'm using an EM3EV 52V battery that works fine with my BBSHD.

With the battery connected LEDs on the throttle and display turn on.
I disconnected everything except the throttle - no response.
With display connected, plugging the throttle back in I get sometimes a small jerk of power. I'm not using a PAS.

I can connect to the controller via USB but apparently it won't save any changed setting, e.g. trying to switch off regen and reverse. I haven't opened the controller yet.

Should I get another throttle or would guys check anything else first?

Thank you so much!
 

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 01:58:55 PM »
Hi andto the forum.

I now have a few questions for you:

1) Were you able to save any changes to the controller before your initial test ride?

2) Did you apply the brakes at high speed during the test ride?

3) Has anything been altered on the electrical installation since the test ride?

My gut feeling is that the EM3EV 52V battery may have inadvertently damaged the controller while trying to protect the battery from being overcharged:
Quote from: em3ev.com/shop/52v-14s4p-shark/
A 2 wire type BMS such as ours, costs more (it requires more mosfets) than an equivalent 3-wire type, but it means that the battery can be ran in parallel with another equivalent battery and also means it is fully protected against over-charge (impossible with a 3-wire type BMS that are generally used in this application).

I suspect that the BMS on this battery is suddenly disconnecting the battery from the controller while it is under high current regenerative charging, and disconnecting the battery under load can result in damage to the Magic Pie's controller, due to a sudden voltage spike that has nowhere to go except back into the electronics of the controller.
Loose connections on a battery cable can also result in controller failure for the similar reasons (sudden disconnection of the battery under load).

There is another post on this forum regarding regen problems with a EM3EV battery where regen would not work unless the battery voltage was below 55V:
Hi, new member here.  Hoping for some help getting my Magic Pie 4 regen working properly with a new battery.

I purchased my MP4 2.5 years ago with a 36V golden motor battery and everything worked flawlessly, including strong regen.

I recently decided to upgrade the battery to a 50V 14.7Ah battery from em3ev.  The battery is awesome, and really gets good power out of the MP. The only issue is that regen only works when the battery is under 55V or so. Full charge is up over 58V, so I need to ride for many miles before I can use regen.  This is especially annoying because I live at the top of a large hill...with my old battery it was nice to be able to regen on the way down, but that is no longer possible unless I only charge to 60% or so.

I have a Cycle Analyst so I can see exactly where it cuts off...if the battery is around 55V and I hit the ebrakes, V will spike up to around 56V and I get no regen.   If the battery is a little lower and the Voltage spike is like 55.8 V I will get some weak regen (-100W or less), but not much.

If the battery is much lower...like under 54V, then I get full regen (-600 or more W). 

This makes me think that the overprotective BMS on the EM3EV battery could potentially cause controller failure if it suddenly opens the battery circuit as the controller voltage rises above 56V during high speed regen braking.

Although your battery worked fine with your Bafang mid drive setup, that motor is incapable of producing regen and would therefore not produce any voltage that could cause the BMS high voltage protection to operate.

Another forum member (also using a EM3EV battery) has recently suffered controller failure after accidentally activating his regen on his MP5.

Have a close look at the 5 pins on the throttle connector to make sure that none of them have been accidentally bent over, and also make sure that there is no signs of water inside the connector.

If you had another throttle to test, it should at least prove whether the original throttle was faulty, but if my suspicions are correct, I think it could be the controller itself that has failed. :(

Alan
 

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 02:19:10 PM »
Hi Alan,

thanks for thoroughly dissecting this issue.

1) I only tried programming the controller after the first test ride so I can't tell if changing settings ever worked.

2) I have hydraulic disc brakes and had no brake sensors connected on the first ride. I did connect one of the supplied brake levers with sensor after but I don't think I ever moved the bike (display showed it was working). I did probably twist the throttle while pulling the brakes. Is that enough for getting a regen current?

3) Just testing the brake sensors without moving and the disconnecting/re-connecting I mentioned.

I'll have another look at the throttle pins later.

So I guess I would need to order another controller if it's really the EM3EV-protection + regen issue?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 02:23:07 PM by Mherm »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 04:48:11 PM »
2) I have hydraulic disc brakes and had no brake sensors connected on the first ride. I did connect one of the supplied brake levers with sensor after but I don't think I ever moved the bike (display showed it was working). I did probably twist the throttle while pulling the brakes. Is that enough for getting a regen current?

If you spun the wheel up to maximum rpm and operated the brake switch that would probably produce a small amount of regen, but I don't know whether it would be sufficient to cause the BMS to momentarily disconnect the battery and cause controller problems.  :-\

So I guess I would need to order another controller if it's really the EM3EV-protection + regen issue?

It is still unclear whether the controller has failed or not. A poor connection, broken wire or a badly soldered joint somewhere on the throttle circuit could also cause the symptoms you are experiencing.

Without being able to measure the throttle signal voltage going to the controller, it is difficult to determine whether the throttle is working correctly or not.

Being unable to save program settings can also happen if you are using an incompatible version of the PI-800 programming software.
Make sure you are using version 3.3.0 from the GM website.

Alan
 

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2020, 03:41:23 PM »
Hi,

checked some more things:

- crimped on a new battery connector (soldered before)
- installed programming software on another Windows machine - I can switch off regen and reverse now and change all the settings.
- opened the throttle, didn't see any loose cables or bad solders

So now when I turn the bike upside down, I'm getting a response from the throttle with the wheel turning slowly and the display showing 0 watts.

I guess at this point it could still be either the throttle or the controller or both. I'll open a ticket with Golden Motor CA and see if I can get a replacement.

Any other suggestions, anyone?

Thanks!


Offline Tommycat

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2020, 03:56:22 PM »
Here is a thread that will tell you everything you need to know about checking the throttle if you so desire...  ;)

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification

Tips in there too on checking the controller to see if it's working by inputting a voltage on the controller (throttle) input wire.



Regards,
T.C.

See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2020, 05:35:49 PM »
Thanks, T.C.!

Wasn't aware of that post, very helpful.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2020, 07:56:54 PM »
Here is a thread that will tell you everything you need to know about checking the throttle if you so desire...  ;)

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification

I had already added this link to the Useful Links thread.  ;)

Alan
 

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2020, 11:13:10 PM »
Received the replacement throttle from Golden Motor CA. Thanks for the great service!

Looks like I'm getting a normal throttle response now.
However, around 30 km/h power goes down to 0W and comes back on when I hit the throttle at lower speeds.

I didn't see anything about a speed limiter in the programming video or the display manual. Did I miss anything?

Thanks again!

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2020, 01:21:50 PM »
Repeated with full battery and switched display to MPH. Power starts to decrease around 18 MPH and hits zero at 20. So is the Edge speed-restricted?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2020, 08:56:13 PM »
The Maximum Forward speed (rpm) setting controls the motors top speed.
The default setting for this is typically 360 rpm:



But some controllers will allow you to enter a maximum setting of 380 rpm.

I would expect a 26" Magic Pie Edge to reach 28~32 mph (running unloaded or downhill) before the power being drawn from the battery dropped off completely to zero Amps with a 48V battery and the 360~380 rpm speed setting.

If it was a 16" wheel (or possibly even 18"), then 20 mph would probably be acceptable.

The battery voltage will also affect the maximum rpm as a 24V battery will only produce around half the maximum motor speed/rpm compared to a 48V battery.

Alan
 

Offline Mherm

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2020, 11:50:46 PM »
Thanks again, Alan!

Yeah, I might just hit the 380 RPM. The Edge is on a 29er right now so I would have expected at least 25 MPH at 48V. I need to verify the speed with GPS but definitely feels slower than my BBSHD.

Offline Tommycat

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Re: Magic Pie Edge turns on but no throttle response
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2020, 07:35:54 PM »
With the RPM at 360, a 29 inch wheel should do over 30 MPH before backing off... Referenced charts here...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16114

 

« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 09:54:29 PM by Tommycat »
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.