GoldenMotor.com Forum

General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: GM Canada on February 12, 2011, 09:33:24 PM

Title: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 12, 2011, 09:33:24 PM
This is a quote from a recent email of me telling Andrew. I can't take it anymore! I need a bicycle seat in me rear Quick!

"I just took my 700c off of the hook,. Its in my living room, Just came to my office to get my iphone for a few pictures. The saga begins! I can’t take it anymore!"

Hey anybody want a used 48v1000 700c front motor kit.!!.

Gotta get it started before the wife comes home. "It will be out of here by Tomorrow, Honest. Yes I'll clean up those bottles of motivation as well, Please don't worry. What that? The cost? oh not much really as I will sell the old stuff and maybe a few other things" ;)

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 12, 2011, 10:11:44 PM
Well first off I decide to take it for a boot!  Woohoo! YeeHaaa!! I was riding today!!! It works great!

Do I really want to say goodbye to this Motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWhF5qtbkHA&feature=youtube_gdata

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 13, 2011, 05:44:34 AM
This bike I am converting from a front 48v1000w motor to two 36v250w mini motors. A dual mini drive! the picture of two motors shows the size difference from a 48v1000 to a 36v250 mini. Allthough quite dirty, you can see my dropouts in the front forks are still in perfect condition after taking of the 48v1000w. These are the kind of forks needed for a front wheel drive.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 13, 2011, 06:08:32 AM
First issues! The front motor right out of the box only has one washer on one side and none on the other. I will have to add three washers. To do this on the cable side I will have to remove the white plastic plug so I can feed the washers on then put the plug back on. You can also see the red wire is broken off. This will have to be repaired as well.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 13, 2011, 06:25:58 AM
Seems there are washers on the rear motor missing as well and to add washers or the freewheel the white plug also has to come off to allow sliding out the nuts and washers. adding the free wheel, sliding on the washers and then re-attach the plug. Also that nut in the first picture is loose. I wonder if it is to be tightened against the motor or the dropouts. I find it odd that the cable comes out of the freewheel side. All the other motors I have installed the cable comes out the opposite side of the freewheel. I spun the wheels though and you can feel slight motor resitance in one direction and freewheel in the other. Also it freewheels when spun in the direction it would be coasting so the cable is on the correct side.

Gary

Edit: Actually for the back wheel it is one small washer and one larger with a tap for each side. They are there, just didn't realize it at the time.
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 13, 2011, 03:41:31 PM
The motors are on and freewheeling is a beautiful thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bqwn9KHtAM&feature=youtube_gdata

Now for the wiring...

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on February 13, 2011, 10:49:09 PM
Nice thread you've started Gary. I some how feel i'm to blame for this sudden urge :D.  At least it will keep you ticking over whilst the northern hemisphere hides itself from the sun. I've been getting a bit of cabin fever here and have started gathering bits n bobs to build a cheap n cheerful mountain bike with the idea of mini motors in mind ;D.
So glad you've taken the plunge to be the guinea pig on this one.  As always,, expect the unexpected!

Andrew :)
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 14, 2011, 12:21:09 AM
Thats right Andrew! I 'm blaming you and will be sending you the bill  :D

Expect the unexpected is right, I had everything all wired up for a test and the front motor wouldn't do a thing. Checked and rechecked. everything was right. Switched the controllers around and still nothing from the front wheel. Gabbed another from storage plugged it it and off it went. Good thing I had a warranty  ;)

The problem is that was my last 700c front mini. Had to grab from a 26 inch. Oh well took the plunge and took the motor from the 26 inch and relaced it into the 700c. Watched a video  on youtube and did my first wheel mounting. I must say it came out very true too! I surprized myself. I even dished it perfectly.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Bikemad on February 14, 2011, 12:53:14 AM

Gary,

I'm sure it would have been much quicker and easier to undo six bolts on each of the motors and simply swap the motor and axle assembly from one hub to the other.  ::)

Never mind, at least you've had some fun and learned a new skill at the same time. ;D

Alan
 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 14, 2011, 02:15:57 AM
Actually I knew that , I saw the dissasembled mini pictures in the other thread. I saw no easy or obvious way to open it with out scratching it. I am almost as blind as a bat these days when it comes to looking at things closely. At home here I regulary say to my kids "Hey whos got eyes? can you come and look at this for me?". Also with little time I had to make a move and didn't want to wait for a response. So I was up for the challenge, I watched A video the other day it was so easy to follow and quick!

Also I came to realize I was actually only missing one washer. The front mini washers are much smaller and I mistook two of them together as one. like I said, bad vision. So on the front motors you have 2 small washers on each side. On the rear you have 1 small washer and one thick washer with the flage on each side. If you look at the picture you can see from the factory they put the washers on in the wrong order. I had to add two thick washers on one side in the front to aviod the motor from rubbing on one side. I wasnt surprised by that as I had to use 2 washers on one side for the hbs 48v1000w when it built that. There was plenty of space on the axle, I didnt have to stretch anything. The bike has odd but strong forks. It is not designed for disk brakes so the forks are more in the way. I am sure a bike designed for disk brakes would fit better. The disk brakes on my dual Magic Pie line up fine so I am sure the minis would work as well. Actually If anyone has a picture of a mini with disk brakes I would love to see it.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 14, 2011, 02:36:41 AM
Late night test drive!
Got it done, Very messy with the wires though. I just zip tied bundled up wires and the controllers right to the frame for the test ride. Plus I only split the two battery wires and the red and green on the throttle. Still more wiring to do. I Still have to split the brake levers and cruise. Maybe I'll hook up the horn too. I also picture a Cycle Analyst on this bike as well. "The people need their data!". No pictures of that until I clean it up a bit. I'll do some closeups of the wheels in the sunlight when I get the chance. They actually look very nice  :D . I'll be putting the controllers in two pouches then Im sure that very few people will even realize it electric. Maybe I'll make one of those covers with the eyelets for the key ;)

Poor quality video. It is what it is. There will be more to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKpJ4UrohYE

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on February 14, 2011, 09:32:36 AM
Ohhhh good work Gary !!!

So jealous.... You must have nearly worn a hole in that pocket of yours, or maybe there was a big one there the whole time lol

I'm sure that bike looks a treat :D
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on February 14, 2011, 05:41:20 PM
keep the video reviews coming, all we need now are some CA stats :) you're doing an awesome job!

Bespoke bags and covers, oh yes! There's nothing quite like a tailor made bike 8)


Canada does look really dark and chilly this time of year.
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 14, 2011, 06:20:31 PM
Ohhhh good work Gary !!!

So jealous.... You must have nearly worn a hole in that pocket of yours, or maybe there was a big one there the whole time lol

I'm sure that bike looks a treat :D

Lol, I just went to my inventory for stock. Everything always appears to be free there!

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands any longer!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 14, 2011, 06:30:48 PM
Now would you like stats from one CA or two. I think If I put two CA's on this bike to Monkey will jump out the closest window ;)

Actually took two quick rides this morning with my GPS in hand. One ride at 36 volts and one at 48 volts. But when I was done I realized I had a brake badly dragging so the stats will be incorrect. I'll have to try it again when I get the chance.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: o00scorpion00o on February 14, 2011, 06:48:26 PM

Hi Gary,

Congrats on the wheel build!  ;D

I would love the free wheel ability of the mini motors. It will be interesting to know what speed you get and the hill climbing abilities!

Does anyone know how a single mini motor pulls up hills? and at what voltage and current? My mother is actually interested in motorizing her bike after months of telling me I'm going to kill myself!  ;D   She doesn't want more than id say 15 mph but decent pull up hills would be good.

Mark
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 15, 2011, 03:59:44 AM

Hi Gary,

Congrats on the wheel build!  ;D

I would love the free wheel ability of the mini motors. It will be interesting to know what speed you get and the hill climbing abilities!

Does anyone know how a single mini motor pulls up hills? and at what voltage and current? My mother is actually interested in motorizing her bike after months of telling me I'm going to kill myself!  ;D   She doesn't want more than id say 15 mph but decent pull up hills would be good.

Mark

Thank you I watched this guy it was very simple to follow and the results were very good. I recomend anyone try it. If I ever really want to fix a wheel right in the future, I'll loosen all the spokes first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOI3uBztvHc&feature=related

I'm sure you realize these motors certainly would not last without peddling on hills and take off. There are plastic gears and the torque vs weight would wear them down. I guess I'm am a good test subject as a heavy rider to see what they can handle.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 15, 2011, 04:13:05 AM
keep the video reviews coming, all we need now are some CA stats :) you're doing an awesome job!

Bespoke bags and covers, oh yes! There's nothing quite like a tailor made bike 8)


Canada does look really dark and chilly this time of year.

Not sure when the next stats will come, kinda busy for a week or two. Stats are great! You know I hear they have these watches that...

Yes not much looks colder then a snowbank in the dark. Going above zero here for a few days. It's coming, I feel it, summer!!. Still to dangerous for rides to work though. Wet above zero with all the melting and ice when its below zero.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on February 15, 2011, 07:26:13 AM
i must admit i'm impressed with your wheel lacing. I took one look at a three part YouTube tutorial and then drove straight to a local bike store  :D
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 15, 2011, 02:45:20 PM
Just checked the weather, 10c on friday! WooHoo! looks a good solid test ride is coming up!

Gary
Title: What Ebike?
Post by: GM Canada on February 27, 2011, 04:42:47 PM
More Progress!

Still some minor wire cleanup to go but things are coming together nicely. Still have to get all those wires at the fron to the same length and wrap them in the curly wire wrap. Also going to get a nice schwinn rack bag and cut the bottom ope so I can pull it down over the battery. Should make it invisable. If only the snow would go away so I can take it out without getting it dirty!

What Ebike? I don't see one?

Here is a link to a freewheeling video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNE0Pc-b_o

I have another video I will add shorty.

Gary

(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive002.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive016.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive012.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive010.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive008.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive006.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive024.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive022.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive020.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive018.jpg)
Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on February 27, 2011, 04:57:01 PM
Nice and tidy setup ;)  Are the controllers in the frame bag?

Get us some performance stats as soon as you can.  I will be looking into getting a mini dual kit some time soon.
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 27, 2011, 05:12:58 PM
The triangle frame bag has one controller and all the access wire coiled up from the brake lever, throttle and buttons. It packed pretty tight but fits. The second controller is in the bag under the seat. Plenty of room there. Once again I am amazed at how quickly it is to wire up a dual drive. I have everything wired pemanenty now with cruise, brakelever and throttle wires all split. I even wired up the horn and the lights. I have a pedelec on this bike as well and plugged it into one controller. I just realized I will still have to split that for it to work properly. Sheesh just when you think your done! All the holes in the bags I have cut will be hot glued shut when I finalize the wiring clean up. I am really liking this bike now. Its kind of like when you buy a new car. When your not driving it you park it in the driveway and sit there with a few refreshments and just admire it :)

WooHoo!! ;D ;D

I was going to ride it but we just got a few more inches of snow and the streets are covered with wet "snirt". I don't want to get it all muzzy.

Gary
Title: What Ebike?
Post by: GM Canada on February 27, 2011, 06:09:51 PM
Heres a walkaround video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8AlUYfWf6o

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on February 27, 2011, 06:48:26 PM
nice looking frame you have there. I can tell from the walk around how pleased you are with the neatness of the build :)  It's important to me how integrated the kit is on a bike. It should be part of the bike not something attached to the bike ,,, if that makes sense?
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on February 27, 2011, 08:48:07 PM
Thanks for that. I have always liked this bike I have had it a long time. I actuallly had 5700 miles on it with pure pedal power before I converted it with a 48v1000w GM kit. You can see how it looked back at the beginning of this thread. It was my first ebike build. Then I put about 800 more miles on it before I switched to my joy-ebike. This bike sat pretty much unused (except for the occasional test run) while my Joy-eBike morphed from a 500 watt HBS to a 1000 watt HBS, then to a Magic Pie, then Dual Pie, then to the dual pie, dual battery, dual Cycle Analyst and even dual headlight with trailor. Seems like this one sat there quietly waiting for me to come back to it. Now I have a rebuilt it to this. Seems I have two opposite ends of the rainbow now in my two dual drive bikes.

I kind of like the sound of that My "Two Dual Drive Bikes"

Gary

(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/GMMiniMotorDualDrive002.jpg)
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/TwoPieTwoBatteryTwoCycleAnalystTwoHeadLight.jpg)
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on February 27, 2011, 11:23:51 PM
Awesome !!!!!!!

That dualini bike (dualini = dual mini motor hehe) looks a treat!!

Actually it gave me an idea..... Of a big wheel build bike for top speed, say 28" wheels, dual mini motor and my cyclone kit on 21 speed should be a good one to do.

Haha do you like that name "The Dualini"  = dual mini motors :D

 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 01, 2011, 03:05:02 AM
The GolSchwinn Dualini Stealth!

(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/024.jpg)(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/022.jpg)(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/011.jpg)(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/013.jpg)
Title: Fast Minis!
Post by: GM Canada on March 01, 2011, 03:08:57 AM
Still no hard Data, but they do seem fast!

A little peddling at take off then the rest the mini's are haulin azz!

Gary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riPGfnfXS9Y
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on March 01, 2011, 04:02:48 AM
WOW !!!!!

I love that bike, shweeeet work Gary!
Do you run wide tyres with the cracks in the road? ;)

Good to see the weather is clearing up too
Title: Re: Fast Minis!
Post by: Bikemad on March 01, 2011, 12:41:24 PM
Your bike is looking really neat and tidy now Gary, but I'm now having serious doubts about you:

A little peddling at take off then the rest the mini's are haulin azz!

A little peddling for a little guy!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/TinyGary.JPG)

All those comments you've made about your size have obviously been carefully slipped in to throw us off the scent. You even had me fooled for quite a while, but now we have photographic evidence of your true size...you're actually mini sized, just like those hubmotors. The flag you have on the rear of your trailer is presumably there so that oncoming traffic can actually see you because you're so small. ;D

It also accounts for the very low crossbar on your Joy bike. ;)

Now I'll try being serious for a minute, which it quite a long time for me, as I have a couple of questions for you:

Are you running those 36V minis on a 36V or 48V pack?

How many of the 18 gears do you actually use?

Alan
 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 01, 2011, 01:23:47 PM
And look at at that hour glass figure! Or is it pear shaped? Actually I guess its more like a potato...

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on March 01, 2011, 10:41:58 PM
Similar to Alan's questions,  can a 48v battery be used on this set-up with the 36v motors? would you need a 48v rated throttle with the kit??

Also, what rear cogs do you use?
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 02, 2011, 12:57:09 AM
Ok you all got me. I do not have a 36 volt battery available for use on this bike. The only 36v I have is for the wifes bike and "that bike and battery are not available to you for Testing purposes". So I used a 48 volt off my dual pie. I am only nursing the throttle in that last video on take off but it sure goes. I am sure this is not good for it but I was wondering if I use the USB cable can I safly pull back the power of a 48 volt battery on a 36 volt system?

Gary
Title: Re: Restricting the power for 48V use
Post by: Bikemad on March 02, 2011, 03:04:28 AM
And look at at that hour glass figure! Or is it pear shaped? Actually I guess its more like a potato...

I think that's just the way your cape is hanging.

I was wondering if I use the USB cable can I safely pull back the power of a 48 volt battery on a 36 volt system?

According to the Performance figures (http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/Mini%20Rear%2036V250W%20Performance.pdf) the 36V minimotor was subjected to a maximum of 13.53Amps @ 36V (487.4 Watts) under test conditions. If you limit your current so that a similar maximum wattage is set (9Amps @ 54V = 486Watts), the gears should be able to cope, but the motor windings may still get warm under continuous low speed high load conditions.

It's interesting to note that the Magic Pie uses 17.12Amps @ 48V (820.26 Watts) or 17.29Amps @ 36V (624.16 Watts) to produce approximately the same 20Nm of torque, but at different wheel speeds (minimotor = 173rpm@36V, Magic Pie = 218rpm@36V and 300rpm@48V).

From the above figures, assuming the minimotor was able to cope with 13.5Amps @ 48V, it should produce 20Nm of torque at around 238rpm, approximately 19mph (30km/h) with the 700c tyres.

Can you give us a rough indication of what your approximate maximum speed is on the 48V pack?

Alan
 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 02, 2011, 03:21:46 AM
 "Low speed high load conditions" what are you implying?  :D Just kidding.

9 amps seems very low, I guess I am used to the pies. But I have no doubt your calculations are correct. The cycle analyst goes on it Tomorrow. I guess it would be the most accurate way of setting max amps. So just to be clear I should set the cycle analyst at max 9 amps and see what happins?  The data is about to flow!

Gary
Title: Re: 9 Amp limit
Post by: Bikemad on March 02, 2011, 11:59:51 AM

Gary, don't forget these minimotor are only 250 Watt motors, and are therefore 4X less powerful than a 1000 Watt Magic Pie.

At 80% efficiency they would require 312 Watts to output 250 Watts at the wheel. So limiting it to 9 Amps @ 54V (486 Watts) would mean that under heavy load, they could be producing 1.55 x more power than their actual rating.

To put it into perspective, a 9 Amp limit on a minimotor would be comparable to putting a 36 Amp limit (1,944 Watts @ 54V) on a Magic Pie! :o

So 9 Amps is not really "very low" when you stop and have a good think about it.;)

Alan
 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on March 02, 2011, 05:25:33 PM
this is all getting very exciting ;D

So, as the 250w motors use the same external controller as the MP, it is programable? Well, the magic controller certainly has come into its own with this. Fantastic.. I hope I would not need to get a CA..,,,  Saying that, what voltage controller would you need for this to work, a 36 or a 48v, or would it not matter as the voltage can be changed via USB.  I'm now confused.

 I'm glad we've got GM Canada as our faithful guinea pig.

So Gary, are you slowly going to be turning up the amps and then catching some big hills? :)
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: DirtyGinge on March 02, 2011, 09:28:28 PM
Hi Gary

i think you need to get a saw and a file, and replace those teenie weenie nylon gears with some hardcore metal gears, then we can unleash :)
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on March 03, 2011, 04:21:38 AM
And some earmuffs ;)
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on March 03, 2011, 08:01:35 PM
And some earmuffs ;)


and tassles ;D


Any news Gary?  I'd love to see some stats :)
Title: Re: Restricting the power for 48V use
Post by: GM Canada on March 04, 2011, 02:42:30 AM

I think that's just the way your cape is hanging.


I guess that cape does cover things well but there is no hiding the shape. Sometimes when I have the cape off and I look back over my shoulder things do look kind of nasty!

Sorry never did get the cycle analyst going. But I started the process tonight and hopefully will have it up and running soon. The temperature dropped here again but it should be good enough for a ride again Tomorrow.

Gary

The walking frame has made a huge difference!
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on March 04, 2011, 06:33:37 AM
Lol Gary you have a very flexible neck there :D
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 04, 2011, 05:25:09 PM
I see Alan has somehow obtained a photo of me sucking in my gut and inserted it into my post. sure it looks good there but it all ends up in the "rear" as you can see In the first photo. Plus you can tell I'm sucking it in by the colour of my face!

I mounted the Cycle Analyst and temporarily mounted my camera in a way that I can video the CA in action. I was all ready to go and RAIN!!! 32k to work and back in the rain at 2 degrees is no party! Oh well maybe on Saturday.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 05, 2011, 03:40:31 PM
Another day of rain and snow again Tomorrow...

I have my camera mounted on my dual mini in a way that my next video will show live stats from the Cycle Analyst.

I realize this is a time related post but some may still find it interesting in the future to see how the weather is at Golden Motor Canada.

If you look to the center of right side of the screen you will find YYZ. That is Toronto International Airport. I live straight south of that near the shore of the lake. My daily ebike comute is from the Lakesore area to just north of YYZ.

Gary

http://www.intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?location=USMI0127&animate=true

Title: Re: 9 Amp limit
Post by: Perbear on March 06, 2011, 12:46:38 PM

Gary, don't forget these minimotor are only 250 Watt motors, and are therefore 4X less powerful than a 1000 Watt Magic Pie.

At 80% efficiency they would require 312 Watts to output 250 Watts at the wheel. So limiting it to 9 Amps @ 54V (486 Watts) would mean that under heavy load, they could be producing 1.55 x more power than their actual rating.

To put it into perspective, a 9 Amp limit on a minimotor would be comparable to putting a 36 Amp limit (1,944 Watts @ 54V) on a Magic Pie! :o

So 9 Amps is not really "very low" when you stop and have a good think about it.;)

Alan
 

Actually, limiting phase current would be a better solution to protect the gears and the motor windings than limiting battery current. At low speed the winding current is much higher than battery current so at low RPM and high torque the motor could burn even at only a couple of Amps of battery current. Phase current control is normally implemented in the motor controller but I don't know if GM has such a feature. If they do, the winding current limit threshold should be adjustable on the Magic controller, preferably with some time constants to allow some overcurrent for a few seconds.

Something you could easily implement yourself is a temperature sensor in the motor. Since the torque is proportional to the winding current, and heating of the winding is related to the square of the current (P=I*I*R), a temperature sensor glued on the windings could easily protect the motor. So you could use high current in short burst but limiting current when the winding starts to get hot.  Then a higher phase current could be allowed and still avoiding burnt windings and damaged planet gears. Winding temperature sensors are standard in larger motors used for electric vehicles.

This is somehow built into the Magic Pie controller, probably using a common temperature sensor for stator and controller.  
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: MonkeyMagic on March 06, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
Not sure if the temp sensor would make a difference as if the heat is sustained even for a minute amount of time is enough to melt/destroy the plastic gears. Same goes for exceeding the RPM

And correct me if I'm wrong, but should you limit a given battery current would therefore limit the PWM phase current, no matter the current, correct?

(http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/product/15659443/view/1/type/png/width/378/height/378/coal-same-same-but-different-2-2c-neu-men.png)

I'm thinking of a small air compressor that uses 12V input. It has a plastic cog that gears the air piston. When I pick it up it's cold, but if I put say 24-30V through it (with the same current) either the motor will burn out or I will snap the plastic gear cog. However if I consistantly limit the current from stop start, then it will be fine upto the rated current/RPM. The temp sensor, if I had one in there - would cause erratic behaviour from the motor that I assume is better controlled by a limited current.

Lol the bottles surrounding my desk are telling me to stop now

;)





 





Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Perbear on March 06, 2011, 06:15:29 PM
The PWM plus the controller capacitors and motor inductance works together as a DC/DC step down converter. The battery feeds more or less stable current into the motorcontroller (ESC) capacitor bank. These capacitors feeds burst of current into the coils when the MOSFET's conduct but the coils also conduct current when the FET turn off thru their freewheeling diode (often external schottky diodes in parallel for lower losses).

The best way to check this by using a four channel oscilloscope with current and voltage probes on a phase and on battery at the same time.

Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 09, 2011, 12:27:46 AM
The PWM plus the controller capacitors and motor inductance works together as a DC/DC step down converter. The battery feeds more or less stable current into the motorcontroller (ESC) capacitor bank. These capacitors feeds burst of current into the coils when the MOSFET's conduct but the coils also conduct current when the FET turn off thru their freewheeling diode (often external schottky diodes in parallel for lower losses).

The best way to check this by using a four channel oscilloscope with current and voltage probes on a phase and on battery at the same time.



Hi Perbear,

I haven't got a clue what you just said there but it certainly sounds impressive!

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 09, 2011, 01:00:22 AM
Second test with a Cycle Analyst.

 If you watch it in 1080p you can read the numbers, pretty good this time. Except when im heading into the sun for a short time. I deleted the post of my first video attempt with the CA. I think I will do some limiting with the usb cable on the controllers before using any of the CA limiting features. Most people don't have a Cycle Analyst anyway. I think the first thing would be to just set the controllers to 48 volts. I'm sure they are factory set at 24 volts right now. Obviously I cant run these motors forever like this. I just wanted to see what they can do. Right now it is very cold and Im only doing short rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdRbWYxcKrw&feature=youtube_gdata

You can see at some points I am actually hitting 38 amps. Also top speed seems around 37-38kph. That is why I still feel setting it at 9 amps is very low. Do you actually mean I should be limiting it to 9 amps total or 9 amps each?  If I was running a 36 volt battery with no limiting I still think the amps would be quite high.

Gary

BTW all the snow was gone here. What you see in the video just fell two days ago. But its melting  ;D
Title: Re: Fast Minis!
Post by: GM Canada on March 09, 2011, 01:21:44 AM
Your bike is looking really neat and tidy now Gary, but I'm now having serious doubts about you:

A little peddling at take off then the rest the mini's are haulin azz!

A little peddling for a little guy!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/TinyGary.JPG)

All those comments you've made about your size have obviously been carefully slipped in to throw us off the scent. You even had me fooled for quite a while, but now we have photographic evidence of your true size...you're actually mini sized, just like those hubmotors. The flag you have on the rear of your trailer is presumably there so that oncoming traffic can actually see you because you're so small. ;D

It also accounts for the very low crossbar on your Joy bike. ;)

Now I'll try being serious for a minute (which is quite a long time for me) as I have a couple of questions for you:

Are you running those 36V minis on a 36V or 48V pack?

How many of the 18 gears do you actually use?

Alan
 

lol, it was just pointed out to me that I am starring in one of my videos. If you can find it you will see me riding my joyebike when it was a 500w hbs motor (pro901). If there is any doubt of my size, in this video you can hardly see my bike!

Gary

Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. Video
Post by: GM Canada on March 12, 2011, 08:53:00 PM
I Just realized the speed is off in the latest video. I forgot to set the tire size to 700c instead of 26 inch. That would make quite a difference in top speed.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: cagatay on March 18, 2011, 04:19:16 PM
   Hi 
could you guys say the 250 watt hub diameter?
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on March 20, 2011, 09:03:59 AM
Hi gary,  anymore to report, a second test with correct parameters, and further advice on a safe reliable set-up.   I hope to run a minidual set-up with a 54v pack on my new bike buit only once I know how best to set the controllers
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 21, 2011, 02:08:46 AM
Sorry, nothing yet. Just had a weeks vacaton. Did anyone notice I was gone?

Hope to be riding again soon! Its almost nice enough.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 26, 2011, 12:59:31 AM
More snow ::)... 8 more inches.. I refuse to shovel it this time. >:( It is melting.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 28, 2011, 04:10:56 AM
Ok FINALLY! Some real stats!

I set the controllers to 48v and 40 different amp settings and did the same run on the same street 4 times.

30amps continuos 50 peak
20amps continuos 30 peak
10amps continuos 20 peak
5 amps continuos 10 peak

At the 5 amps continuos 10 peak setting a scooter style ebike went by, I followed him and we had the same power! Didnt get him on video though. Couldnt see around the cycle analyst.

Anyway take a look at the video let me know what you think and what I should set the continuos and peak to by reading the CA stats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yrj9JdTDx0&feature=youtube_gdata

At least I hope its the right address, it says "video is being processed" I waited as long as I can, I'm off to bed. Work in 5 hours..

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: LOLO on March 29, 2011, 08:23:39 AM
Hi Gary,
I have post a question on you tube but I think it's better here..
You realese this different test whitout pedal assist ?
I'm interessing to install two mini motor on a "single style".. 
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 29, 2011, 10:31:36 AM
All 4 tests are from a rolling start with no peddling. I was quite surprised that even on the lowest setting I tried I was still able to go over 30 kph.

Gary
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: Andrew on March 29, 2011, 04:51:41 PM
Hi Gary, I have studied the video several times and am too very impressed with the performances. With 5 amp Cont and 10 max the motor is obviously slower to wind by quite a bit but it still reaches a respectable 19mph/31kph.    As you know I am just a novice when it comes to electricals but with the magic controllers set higher than 5 cont/10 max will this burn out the motor or kill the gears ??? I'm just going from Alan's previous posts about wattage and GM's own performance chart.   Is the total wattage generated by the volts and amps shared between the two motors.  For example 48v x 10amp = 480w, is this divided in half and shared between the motors?? Please go easy, I'm sure there is a very simple curcuit diagram to explain this :-\
Title: Re: Dual Mini 700 c. It Begins! I can't sit on my hands anylonger!!
Post by: GM Canada on March 31, 2011, 01:59:33 AM
The last test at 5 amps continuous 10 max it was a bit of an unfair start. All four starts rolled around the same corner and scooted down the street. But the last one I had to stop completely (damn cars!) so when I rounded the corner the start was much slower. But it’s still very respectable. I think you are asking me what these motor can take and I have no knowledge. I would go with those that explain things in a way that make me head spin. But I can do practical experience testing.
I think in Alan’s post he suggested 9 amps. Not sure I'd have to look back. So late last night I reset both controllers to 30 continuous and 50 max then I did the advance hookup on the Cycle Analyst. I am very surprised as to how long this takes me now. I think I have done it 6 or 7 times and its now down to a 10 - 15 minute job. Today I tried the CA at all the same peak settings in the previous video and the results were pretty much the same.
Then I tried setting the at 9 amps as Alan suggested and max speed at 32 kph. Just to see how it would be.
 That’s when I had the most "Awesomest Awesome ride ever!" as Jack Black said in "Kung Foo Panda".
I made a fantastic discovery! Now I have three options going on this bike for acceleration and they all seem to work well together.
1- thumb throttle - you can hold it down and the CA regulates the Amps drawn at 10 and speed 32 kph.
2- cruise button - You can set the cruise at any speed up to 32 kph - also if you hold the throttle on full and hit cruise before 32kph it will go past the setting of the CA and up to the maximum speed of the bike.
3- pedelec - any time I pedal the bike takes off at full throttle with no restrictions from the CA. This full speed effect can be regulated using the throttle. If you use full throttle while peddling the bike goes the max amps and speed set on the CA if you let off the throttle completely it again goes full unregulated power. Holding the throttle anywhere in between gives a variable midrange effect.

This was all working really well and I look forward to my ride to work tomorrow for a longer test. I may still cut the controllers back a bit with the USB cable but as it is now I can picture the following. I pedal and throttle at takeoff for CA regulated settings, use the throttle and/or cruise on the flat to slight upgrades CA Regulated,  and pedal hard up the hills using the pedelec to power the bike and the throttle to regulate how much I override the CA.

More to come. Going to video my stats on my uphill climb to work tommotow. WooHoo! Can't wait!

Gary

PS Also had a ride to the lake with my son today..

(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/EbikesAtLake.jpg)