Author Topic: Just for fun  (Read 19611 times)

Offline NYC2LA

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Just for fun
« on: May 24, 2007, 09:39:36 PM »
Hi-
New to all this EV stuff...I'm a tinkerer at heart and need a new project.  I was wondering about putting the front hub assemble on the rear (of course I would tinker to make it all fit--and be safe), and ditching the pedals, chain rings, etc., and just make the bike an electric scooter.  Is the motor powerful enough to cruise like a scooter?  Hills, flats, etc?   

Offline myelectricbike

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2007, 11:30:58 PM »
You don't need to tinker. Golden makes a rear wheel kit... but consider this...  your bike weights 20-30 lbs which is unevenly distriuted with 10 up front and 20 in the rear. You add the motor which is 18 lbs but the old wheel was 3 so you add only 15. Now add the battery pack which is 30 and then your weight which is 175 (i'm guessing) distributed also 2 to 3.

Lets see now... rear: 15+15+30+116.6 = 226.6 and front: 15+58.4 = 68.4.. that's a lot more weight in the rear.

Offline NYC2LA

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 12:06:26 AM »
yes, but is the rear wider?  does it have a different hub to fit the rear chain wheels (sprocket cluster)?  I wouldn't want any of this if I can do away with it. 
The main point of the question was really about the power of the motor.  Does it have enough to carry 200+ pounds of human & machine?
Also, I am DEFINITELY naive when it comes to electric motors.  I read in other discussions that someone put a 48 watt battery to it, to get more power.  Is that what cranks these faster?  More wattage in the battery?  How does wattage "compare" (I'm sure I'm using the wrong word) with amps?  The motor is advertised as 450 but with a max of 600...I don't follow how this works.  Anyone care to explain?
thanx in advance.

G

Offline myelectricbike

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 12:44:21 AM »
Sounds like you'd be interested in learning more about electricity and BLDC motors. The Wikipedia articles are where I would start. As for Golden ebike conversion kits, yes, the wheels do have sufficient torque and heavy duty spokes to handle 200 lbs (The ratings are based on 175 lbs, however) with motor rating at 250 and 500 watts, at 24 and 36 volts respectively (although some claim they can handle 48 volts and 800 to 1,000 watts). Federal law, however, limits ebikes to 750 watts and a top speed of 20 mph.

Offline OneEye

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 06:30:17 PM »
The lower listed wattage rating (450) is the "continuous" wattage.  This is the most power you can put through the motor CONTINUOUSLY without it melting down or shortening its service life significantly.  The upper wattage rating (600) is the "peak" wattage.  You can pump that much power through the motor for a short time (such as starts or short hills) but if you keep it up beyond a short period of time you will start melting things in the motor.  Heat dissipation is one of the main limits on electric motors.

If the controllers &c can handle the 48V, as long as you keep the total power pumped through the system to within the original guidelines I think you will be alright.  The problem is it becomes very easy to pump too much power through the system with the additional voltage.  One benefit of running at 48 volts while limiting yourself to the original motor power limits should be an extended range (since you have 4 batteries instead of three).  You have certainly voided your warranty if you do this though.

The other thing to note, is that at low rpm and high torque (such as starting from a stop) the motor is very inefficient.  If you pedal while starting and on hills, and let the motor keep you at speed while cruising on the flats, it should be a pretty good way to extend your range.  By eliminating the pedals and making it a scooter you lose this ability.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 06:58:28 PM by OneEye »

Offline NYC2LA

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 04:32:39 PM »
Thanx, OneEye...

I definitely wish to make it a scooter.  Looking at the site with the 1000w motor (600 clams seems way too high but do like the extra power).

I read the Wiki articles.  Still not getting the electric thing--I've been a (gas) motor-head all my life. 

From what I get, watts is like the octane where amps is like the flow rate.  Amps seems to be considered with time...as in amps per hours.  So, is this the draw on the electric motor?  If held wide open it draws a certain amount of amps per hour?

Offline OneEye

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2007, 06:27:13 PM »
Watts is a measure of power like an engine's horsepower

Amps is an instantaneous measurement of current, so it's like fuel flow rate.

Amp-hours (at a given voltage, 36V for instance) is an overall energy, like fuel in the tank.

To get Watts, you multiply the Voltage and the Amps.

A 36V motor at 12.5A is 450 Watts.

If you have (3) 12v batteries, with 10Ah each, you could nominally pull 450W from them for 48 minutes before fully draining them.  The real world reduces this significantly.  First, in Sealed Lead Acid batteries (Absorbed Glass Mat) the Ah rating of a battery is measured for 20 hours of discharge, and to full discharge.  If you run a battery to 100% discharge, it is pretty much a 1-use item, the lead plates sulfate and cannot be recharged.  Also, at faster current draws you get less total capacity. 

Generally for SLA/AGM batteries you don't want to run to more than 50% discharge.  Hopefully you are also not putting the full rated power through the motor on a constant basis.

Another factor you may wish to include in your scooter/cycle decision is how they are treated under the laws in your area.  In the US, the federal law exempting electric bicycles from regulation as a motor vehicle goes up to 750W (continuous) rated motors and 20mph.  The federal exemption also requires the bicycle is still a functional bicycle.  I have not been able to find very good information on the regulation and exemption of electric scooters.  Supposedly in California, they have some sort of exemption similar to electric bicycles, but part of the exemption requires you only run scooters on roads with a speed limit of 25mph or less, or in marked bicycle lanes and paths.  Electric bicycles can run on almost any road (unless specifically posted as prohibited, ie. freeways) as they have much broader protection under the law.

Service life and range of batteries seems to me to be the biggest limit right now on e-bikes and e-scooters.  When you factor in the cost of replacement batteries, e-bike commuting appears to cost around ~$0.13/mile.

For instance, Tim Lockard writes in his Lockardtechnologies forum about his Wilderness Electric conversion kit experience.  It is a similar system, with a 36V ~500W brushless motor, and he paired it with (3) 12V, 12Ah battery kit (very typical for this type of kit).  The batteries probably run about $80-$100 delivered (12V 12Ah seems to be at the price "sweet spot" right now for batteries.  You pay more per Ah for smaller and larger batteries), and he was able to get 850 miles out of them before replacing them.  According to his forum posts, he is an avid e-commuter, and runs somewhere around 8-10 miles each way.  Obviously it is hard to estimate how much pedalling he does.  For his experiences, see: http://www.lockardtechnologies.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=ebike1.  He had even worse results from his second set, they only survived 400 miles before he had them replaced under warranty.  Their replacements didn't fare much better.

It seems like his batteries only survived ~120 charge/discharge cycles.  I am told this is to be expected for deep discharges and high rates of discharge.

I haven't been able to find any other "real world" experiences with as much detail or longevity as Tim's.  If you find other experiences posted on the web, I'd love to see them.  Right now this is the biggest sticking point on whether or not I am going to get a conversion kit and start a bike commute in to work.

-Mike


Offline OneEye

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2007, 06:29:57 PM »
To answer a question in your earlier post, the motor should be able to run a 200lb rider at 18-20mph on the flat.  The power rating is similar to a number of 36V electric scooters.

Offline myelectricbike

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 08:30:57 PM »
Currently I do a 5.1-mile run, 2 to 8 times per week on a 36v - 3- 12ah lead acid. Batteries are always fully charged.. Initially I had problems with stalls on the last mile if I had a full load (60 lbs), did not peddle or traveled at low RPM or did stop and go. This turned out to be a bad battery that was replaced under warranty. After replacement charge times for this run were typically 7 hours in January and have dropped steadily ever since, now to 3 hours 12 minutes on the standard controller and 2 hours 33 minutes on the new regenerative controller.

I am sure battery degradation is responsible for the steady decrease in charge times but the controller is responsible for the immediate difference in recharge times separated by only one run.

The point here is that if charge time is an accurate indication of battery degradation then not only will you be disappointed in battery life but in battery range, although the regen controller seems to give you about 20% less recharge time. Comparative recharge events have to be adjacent to be accurate.

For a regular commute, the cost of Lithium near lifetime batteries would seem to overcome the issue of batteries but at $650 per pack, I am a long way from gathering test data on these.

Offline Brandnew

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 10:30:33 PM »
OneEye, sound like you know a lot more about these conversion kits than most of us. I live in an area where if you are not going downhill you are peddling uphill and a what is considered a flat area here are gently rolling hills. Most of our hills are only about 1/4 mile long but steep. I am peddling 10 miles too work and want to arrive dry. What I am looking for is something to help level out the hills. I like peddling the flats and don't mind the hills but I ride a recumbent that is super slow up the hills. I had hoped that with peddling and with the electric hub motor assisting that the hills will be faster and a little easier. Am I expecting too much from one of these electric hub motors? Anyone out there have experience with hills and electric hub motors. My idea was to peddle the flats(gently rolling hills) unassisted the used the hub motor to assist me up hills. As far as front or rear hub motors I like the idea of the front hub motors better but both our recumbents have special forks and they are not wide enough up high enough. Thanks

Offline myelectricbike

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2007, 12:43:32 AM »
Total weight, battery voltage, amperage, controller size, wheel size, length and slope of the hill, dead start, running speed, legal regulations etc. are all significant factors that can contribute to or detract from the success of a hill climbing power conversion project. Be prepared to experiment.

Smaller wheel size means less top speed but more hill climbing power. 48 volts (with a 48-volt controller) can bring the ride up to almost the equivalent of a 47cc moped but then it would not be street legal. For long steep hills you will most certainly have to replace your power leads inside the hub with Teflon insulated 16 AWG, I would not use a lower gage unless you are prepared to rewind the stator with higher temp insulation an gage winding.

I climb a short (1/4 mile) hill everyday that has a 15 to 25 degree slope. I can peddle up it without a motor but somewhat slowly. With a standard 26", 36v setup and no load and 12ah lead acid batteries I get some assistance from the motor but not enough to keep me from peddling. A 48 volt setup gets me up the hill with minimal if not any peddling but I've had to ride the bike back down the hill and walk it home twice to replace the power leads inside the hub because the insulation had melted. Fortunately, there was no apparent damage to the windings. Teflon insulated silver finally solved this problem with the power leads inside the hub but I am looking forward to and expecting to have to rewind the motor with higher temp, lower gage.

So for your application I'd experiment with a 48v setup first with one or more 20" wheels and a 26" rear, 36v setup in the rear for cruising. However, the bicycle law still applies to etadpoles and any recumberant on the open public roads.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:05:35 AM by myelectricbike »

Offline Brandnew

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2007, 01:34:16 AM »
My recumbent is the Trek R200 which has 20" wheels front and back. I expect to peddle up hills but I am wanting some assist to help keep my speed above a crawl. I want to try the ped-elect system which I understand requires peddling to run the motor. My wifes' recumbent is a Rans V-Rex which has a 20" front and a 26" rear wheel. Her knees are a problem and some kind of assist is a must for her. We are in our mid 50's and the hills are not getting any easier for us. We like bike riding and are not looking for a peddleless scooter. I do appreciate any and all input. Thanks Brandnew

Offline myelectricbike

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2007, 03:40:53 AM »
In both cases it is a matter of axle width. Rear Wheels require a 160mm spacing +/- 10mm. Front Wheel spacing is 82mm +/- 10mm. You might get the amount of assist you need on hills with a 20", 48 volt setup but remember the 48 volt controller is capable of outputting 1,000 watts. You have to keep the power under 750 watts and speed below 20 mph on level ground and retain functional peddles to remain street legal. Otherwise you are road kill for the cops! ;D

Offline OneEye

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2007, 04:12:23 PM »
Brandnew,

As I've mentioned, I'm just in a research phase trying to convince myself (and my wife) to throw some spare change at a conversion kit and start bike commuting.  For me it'll be about a 80% return on investment decision with a 20% fitness opportunity decision.

Analytic Cycling (http://www.analyticcycling.com/) has some cycling calculators that allow you to estimate speeds and power based on various assumptions about grade, rolling resistance, weight, etc.  Their rolling resistance numbers are apparently based on fancy racing slicks at a fairly high pressure, so you may want to adjust the rolling resistance higher.

Wikipedia suggests an "in-shape" human rider can put out about 200-300W of continuous power for a one-hour period.

Offline OneEye

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Re: Just for fun
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2007, 04:16:58 PM »
myelectricbike,

how many total miles have you put those batteries through?  (tracked by pedal computer or estimated?)

-Mike