GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: GoldenMotor on August 01, 2014, 11:50:49 AM
-
(http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/mpgallery/images/MagicPie4.jpg)
(http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/BAC-601.jpg)
http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/BAC-601 LCD User Guide.pdf (http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/BAC-601 LCD User Guide.pdf)
-
A few questions...
Will the SineWave controller fit an MP3? Is it available as a replacement part? What it the cost for the controller as a replacement part? Is there software available to support Mac users?
TTFN,
Dennis
-
Hi Dennis, here are a few answers...
It won't easily fit the early MPIII and you would need to be prepared to do the following:
- Machine the axle (or fit the later type if they're compatible)
- Enlarge the inside of the controller housing
- Change the hall sensor plug
- Change the phase wire connectors
- Replace the main wiring harness and controls
I'm not sure whether all of the above will still apply to the more recent MPIIIs.
I presume the controller will be made available as a replacement part just like the existing controllers are, but I have no idea what the price is likely to be.
It should be possible to run the programming software on a Mac using a PC emulator, I wonder if anyone has tried doing this yet?
I don't have a Mac so I can't try it out. ::)
Alan
-
Hi Alan,
I have to believe that GM management has finally gotten out the known failure parts of the MP3 controller, and I certainly admire the packaging of the built in controllers vs Lyen,etc. But what really sells me is the sine wave output mode, which doesn't magnetically/mechanically hammer the windings on each and every pulse.
Any chance you have any photos of the new controller circuit board to share?
TTFN,
Dennis
-
I tried to take a photo comparing the difference in size between the hall sensor sockets to show how much smaller the new connector is but it came out a bit blurry:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/P7312344_zpsfa936f3f.JPG)
Check out Gary's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJmjI-73GQU) for more information.
Alan
-
Hi Alan,
Hey, it looks like I better drop Gary a line. The quality improvements are obvious, even from the video. The connector change and the conformal coating on the circuit board are huge improvements to the reliability problems I have complained about. Thanks for the link to the video.
TTFN,
Dennis
-
looks like with this controller your moving to the head of the pack
any thoughts on making it a 2 speed hub (y- delta)
don't get me wrong the mag pie 3 was great
pretty sure the mag pie 4 will be greater
if nothing else adding off time into the load cycle should increase distance traveled and reduce heat into the fets
I just think adding y-delta would be the best for top speed cruising
any thoughts
Laurence
-
Will the SineWave controller fit an MP3?
Time for some clarification on this matter.
Basically, the controller can be made to fit the MPIII but unfortunately it will not work properly due to changes with the windings and the hall sensor positions that were specifically made to suit the sine wave controller.
You end up with a motor that will do nothing between 0 and 20% throttle movement, and will suddenly run at full speed throughout the remaining 80% of the throttle movement. You basically end up with a rotary ON/OFF switch instead of a variable throttle and changing the program settings seems to make no difference.
Now that I have actually tried it myself, and I recommend that the sine wave controller should not be used to upgrade an MPIII to vector control.
If you want to upgrade to vector control you will need to purchase a complete new kit.
Alan
-
what did they do to the winding
Laurence
-
I don't know exactly what was changed but I believe the sequence of the coil windings and the positioning of the hall sensors has been altered to optimise the power and efficiency in both forward and reverse directions.
I don't think that automatic Delta "Y" switching will be an option with the current vector controllers, but as GM are continually improving controllers, I guess it may be possible sometime in the future.
The vector controllers are not universal like their predecessor, they are specifically programmed at firmware level to suit the specific motor that they will be fitted to, therefore a Smart Pie 4 Vector controller is not suitable for the Magic Pie 4 motor (and vice versa).
I have already discovered that the MPIII doesn't work very well with the Magic Pie 4 vector controller, and also that it won't even run with the Smart Pie vector controller. ::)
Alan
-
Thanks for the heads up, Alan
Dennis
-
OK Bad timing...... . Does anyone know how well vector control with work with the Cycle analyst/Thun xcell rt and the external shunt I just got for my second Ebike. I know it is early days.. is there any reason it shouldn’t work ....?
Due to weight constrains as well as a wish to have a little bit of exercise I probably will go with the Vector Smart Pie.
-
Hi Hastings.
The bike I am doing my testing has the full thun-Cycle Analyst setup on it. I find everything works perfectly.
Here is another new Video on the Magic Pie 4 Vector. You can really tell this is a super quiet and powerful motor. I'm Loving it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgyHPIIjmMU
Gary
-
Well I've just did a test ride on proof of concept front MP3 fitted with Vector with some mods on winding (I was not told what exactly was done - phase shuffle?)
All is working fine. I do not see any ON/OFF behavior however torque is low, especially from full stop. It feels more like 2-3A on MP3 however CA readings shows around 20-25A on full throttle.
Actually I've tried to hold bike with rear brake and do WOT from full stop so it even does not spin front wheel while CA shows around 10-15A draw. Wheel just stays on the ground and after few seconds controller shuts the power to the motor due protection.
I'm not saying it has difficulties to start spinning but it's slow to reach it's RPM even when wheel is lifted. I can ride it from full stop but nothing to compare with original mp3...
Any ideas on why torque is so low? Could it be HAL sensors connected in wrong order or motor would not work in that case at all?
I don't know exactly what was changed but I believe the sequence of the coil windings and the positioning of the hall sensors has been altered to optimise the power and efficiency in both forward and reverse directions.
I don't think that automatic Delta "Y" switching will be an option with the current vector controllers, but as GM are continually improving controllers, I guess it may be possible sometime in the future.
The vector controllers are not universal like their predecessor, they are specifically programmed at firmware level to suit the specific motor that they will be fitted to, therefore a Smart Pie 4 Vector controller is not suitable for the Magic Pie 4 motor (and vice versa).
I have already discovered that the MPIII doesn't work very well with the Magic Pie 4 vector controller, and also that it won't even run with the Smart Pie vector controller. ::)
Alan
-
does the sinus controller in the Magic/Smart Pie 4 got a protection against the arc which
occurs when a controller is connected to a battery and which burns down the contacts?
(the capacitors drawing heavy amps for the blink of an eye)
-
is the controller in the Magic Pie 4 the same as in the Smart Pie 4?
how many and what FET's?
-
There is no capacitor precharge function in the vector controller so you will still get a nice big fat spark if you are using a battery without BMS and a much reduced spark if you connect to a BMS equipped battery that is already turned on before you connect. ;)
The controllers appear to be physically identical but they are factory loaded with different firmware to suit the particular motor.
The FETs are sealed underneath the circuit board inside the aluminium casing and I am not about to ruin a perfectly good controller just to find out what's inside it.
As these controllers are so compact, I would assume they only have 6 FETs to do the switching just like all the previous GM internal controllers.
Alan
-
hello Alan, thanks for your answers!
6 fet isn't that much :-( the fan really must help something. 6 fet is the minimum used in any
bike controller I know about.
and the missing spark protection doesn't sound good either
-
Well I've just did a test ride on proof of concept front MP III fitted with Vector with some mods on winding (I was not told what exactly was done - phase shuffle?)
All is working fine. I do not see any ON/OFF behavior however torque is low, especially from full stop. It feels more like 2-3A on MP III however CA readings shows around 20-25A on full throttle.
Actually I've tried to hold bike with rear brake and do WOT from full stop so it even does not spin front wheel while CA shows around 10-15A draw. Wheel just stays on the ground and after few seconds controller shuts the power to the motor due protection.
I'm not saying it has difficulties to start spinning but it's slow to reach it's RPM even when wheel is lifted. I can ride it from full stop but nothing to compare with original mp3...
Any ideas on why torque is so low? Could it be HAL sensors connected in wrong order or motor would not work in that case at all?
Who modified the windings and how did they know what was required?
The low speed torque from my MP4 appears to be a lot more than my MPIII so I would guess that your low torque is because the coil windings are still not optimised correctly to suit to the controller, perhaps your stator was simply rewired from Star to Delta configuration? ???
Is it any faster than it was with the MPIII controller?
I have had a good look at the hall sensor positions on both my original MPIII and the new MP4 and they appear to be in exactly the same position on the stator, so I know that my "all or nothing" throttle problem must be due to the windings.
I don't know exactly what the difference in the windings of the stator is, but it definitely makes a big difference to how the motor performs. ;)
Alan
-
Hi Alan,
Guys who modified it are working with GM products for a long time however it's their initial experience with Vector controller.
This is rather experiment that I've volunteered as my original MP3 controller needed some fixing anyway.
Delta wiring might be exactly what they did. They were having issues to make it work correctly for few days and were unwilling to tell me what they did to make it work :) I will try to ask again.
While speaking about HAL sensors I was guessing not about position but rather incorrect sequence of hall sensors connected. I'm not sure what would be behavior if you change sequence of HAL sensors with this controller? Motor will go in reverse or will loose it's power?
It is not faster, speed is pretty much same but it's harder to reach max speed (due lower torque?) But I'm able to reach around 45kph (5x something while pedaling)
But for delta wiring I could explain it with 2 factors:
1. Speed It is SW that controls it and it's set to default 380RPM. I might hit that limit. I don't have Vector cable to test it.
2. In theory delta wiring is considered to be low torque at low RPMs but can reach higher speeds on BLDC motors. Are that 380RPM considered to be high enough RPM? For some reason I would say that 10KRPM is high and not ~400.
-
Well I've just did a test ride on proof of concept front MP III fitted with Vector with some mods on winding (I was not told what exactly was done - phase shuffle?)
All is working fine. I do not see any ON/OFF behavior however torque is low, especially from full stop. It feels more like 2-3A on MP III however CA readings shows around 20-25A on full throttle.
Actually I've tried to hold bike with rear brake and do WOT from full stop so it even does not spin front wheel while CA shows around 10-15A draw. Wheel just stays on the ground and after few seconds controller shuts the power to the motor due protection.
I'm not saying it has difficulties to start spinning but it's slow to reach it's RPM even when wheel is lifted. I can ride it from full stop but nothing to compare with original mp3...
Any ideas on why torque is so low? Could it be HAL sensors connected in wrong order or motor would not work in that case at all?
None of this makes any sense to me. What you tested in my opinion is not possible to be the new vector controller. I have checked it out and see no possibility it would even fit. I would love to see so e pictures of this controller and how it fit in the hole and over the axle.
Gary
-
Hi Gary
Apologies for late reply. I was only able to get my hands on that this weekend.
What is the purpose for me to lie? :) I'm just decribing issues we've faced converting MP3 to MP4.
I think there is main difference between MP3 revs. So called MP3.1 and MP3.2. MP3.2 has a bit different controller?, different winding and, possibly, narrower axle.
Mine is MP3.2
I did take some pics of the controller but did not remove it as it is silicone sealed including axle. See attached.
It will be now converted back to MP3 but before that we'll try to understand a difference and what exactly needs to be done for it to work with this controller.
The official answer from GM is that it does not work but for some reason I don't believe it's not possible to make it work in worst case rewinding wires just for matter of science :)
I did swap my motor with Vector on weekend and I can confirm that performance boost is incredible.
I was not able to stop wheel from spinning (front) all the time on unpaved road with 100% Accel setting. Last time I was not able to spin wheel no matter how hard I tried.
It runs something like 5 times better in terms of torque and acceleration than MP3 with Vec and better than original MP3 with stock controller.
-
The new LCD panel (BAC-601) for the vector system can you limit wattage, and speed etc? Like the MG cycle analyst? Is GM Canada carry this product?
thanks MG
-
Unfortunately, it does not affect the power available from the throttle, it only alters the amount of power provided by the pedelec system, which is ultimately limited by the maximum settings in the controller.
The mode settings available during use will vary the power available from the pedelec which is produced in relation to the rider's pedal speed (cadence) and the "PAS Ratio", "Battery drawn current", "Rated phase current" and "Acceleration" settings programmed into the controller.
Alan
-
Oh ok so the cycle analyst is maybe worth the money in that respect. thanks for info Alan.