GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Electric Boat Conversions => Topic started by: BjornO on August 09, 2019, 11:18:00 AM
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First test with my new 5 kW motor with 300 A sine controller:
As a first test, I only connected the motor cables, the hall connector, a 5 kOhm pot to the throttle input and connected the ignition.
It beeps once and blinks red once. After a few seconds it beeps/blinks 12 times repeatedly. The voltage in is 50 V. The voltage at the throttle connector is 4.5 V.
Edited the subject so that I can use the same thread for all questions
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Hi Björn,
12 regular flashes indicates an abnormal throttle signal voltage (either too high or too low).
If the 4.5V at the throttle connector is on the signal wire (not the +5V wire) when you turn on the battery power, this would cause the error because the controller expects a throttle signal voltage of 0.8~1V with the throttle released, or 2.25~2.5V if the controller is set for a boat style throttle with forward/reverse and Neutral in the mid position.
A safety feature of the controller automatically prevents the motor from starting if the throttle is not fully released (or in the Neutral position) when the controller is initially powered up.
As you are using a potentiometer instead of a Hall effect throttle, the maximum and minimum signal output voltage is likely to go beyond the upper and lower limits that define the controller's acceptable working range, and this will probably cause the same error code 12.
(https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6741.0;attach=8448;image)
Resistors could be placed inline on the +5v supply and the ground connection of the potentiometer to ensure the signal voltage remains within the required range.
I would suggest a 1.5k resistor on the ground wire and a 2k resistor on the +5V wire as shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/s2Rr2i6.png)
With a 4.5V supply this should hopefully give a working range output of between 0.8V and 3.5V from the potentiometer, or between 0.88V and 3.8V with a 5V supply.
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
Alan
EDIT: Diagram added
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Thank you,
The 4.5 V is on the +5 V supply from the controller to the throttle. The throttle signal will be 0-4.5 V depending on the pot setting.
I will add those resistors and try again.
By the way, do you have a list of error codes for the controller?
Björn
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Hi Björn,
A list of the error codes can be found on page 5 of the VEC controller guide (https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/GoldenMotor%20FOC%20Motor%20Controller%20Guide.pdf).
Alan
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Hi Allan
with the resistors it works perfectly well. Next step will be building the throttle box for the boat.
Björn
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A new question. I have decided to use the potentiometer for both directions with neutral in the middle. However, for safety, I would like to have a switch for neutral as well. I may use the ignition switch for this, but then the controller will restart each time I use it. Is there another simple solution?
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Hi Björn,
The simplest way to achieve what you're looking for is to have a separate On/Off switch (or an Emergency Stop button) connected to the +5V and GND brake wires.
With the switch in the On position (or the Emergency Stop button depressed) the motor will be disabled.
Alan
EDIT
If the Emergency Stop button can only open its contacts when activated, you would need to wire this in series with the throttle signal wire to break the throttle circuit, or inline with the e-lock feed to disconnect the feed to the controller.
Please Note: Deactivating the throttle will not stop the motor from running if the cruise control is already engaged.
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Hi Björn,
The simplest way to achieve what you're looking for is to have a separate On/Off switch (or an Emergency Stop button) connected to the +5V and GND brake wires.
With the switch in the On position (or the Emergency Stop button depressed) the motor will be disabled.
Alan
Hi, I just tried this, and it works, but when the switch is On, the controller beeps and the red LED blinks 15 times as long as the switch os closed.
Björn
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Hi Björn,
I'm pretty sure that the 15 regular flashes on the VEC controllers indicates that the brakes are applied (or possibly a brake switch/wiring fault).
In your case it is obviously the Neutral switch simulating a long application of the brakes.
In car and bike applications, if the motor refused to run when the throttle was operated, the constant 15 regular flashes would flag up a problem with either a momentary brake switch stuck in the "ON" position, or a short circuit fault somewhere on the brake switch wiring, but in your boat application, it will remind you that your controller is powered up but you're still in Neutral. ;)
I have a BAC-601 Smart Display unit which I use with a Magic Pie 4 hubmotor:
(http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/BAC-601.jpg)
Mine always displays the "Error 1" code (brake lever failure) every time the brakes are applied.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
If I use the brake signal as Neutral switch anyway, do I risk to harm the controller? I think the beeping/flashing will cease when the switch is reset into its Run position.
(The controller will be mounted in the engine room and the beeping/flashing will not be noticed from the helm position.)
Björn
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Hi Björn,
It shouldn't harm the controller as it is no different to someone sitting in a parked car with their foot resting on the brake pedal, or going down a long steep incline in very slow moving traffic.
I imagine that it simply sends a low level signal binary input to a single pin of the controller chip, in the same way as I suspect the reverse and cruise inputs operate.
Alan
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Hi, one more thing,
The cruise control may be useful in my boat, so I have some questions.
Is this input for a pushbutton or a toggle switch?
How do I use the different settings?
Björn
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Hi Björn,
The input wires are for the manual option, which uses a simple momentary push button switch to both engage and disengage the cruise control.
Applying the brakes on a car or bike etc. would also disengage the cruise function if activated, but I don't suppose you have brakes on your boat. :D
You would need to set the Cruise Control Enable setting to 1:Enable to use the manually switched (or the automatic) cruise function.
I have no experience with the automatic cruise, but I assume it would engage when the throttle is held in the same position for a set length of time (more than the number of seconds set in the Automatic cruise response time (s)).
Alan
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Another question:
In the wiring diagram, the forward/reverse and the cruise connectors use the same GND pin (6) on the big connector, but the brake uses another pin (5). Are these connected in the controller so I can use the same GND for both cruise and brake, or do I have them separated?
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According to the wiring diagram (https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/VEC%20Controller%20Wiring%20Diagram.jpg), pins (4) (5) (6) (21) and (26) are all ground connections, so you should be able to use any of these pins (or even the B-) terminal as a ground connection.
The signal wires for the brake, cruise and reverse function just need to be switched to ground to activate each function. The current flowing through the ground connection will be negligible, so a single pin would easily cope with all three.
However, using a single connection for each function would be much safer, because if one wire were to break (or had a poor pin contact) the other two functions would still work correctly.
Alan
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Thank you.
The cable to the control box is rather thick, and soldered in each end, so there is no risk of breaking wires. The thin wires are those coming from the controller, but I can connect two of them to my thicker cable for safety.
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Hi, a new question:
If I use the ”Hyperbola” setting to achieve forward/back using a single lever, can I use the ”Reverse” function also?
For example, when going forward, just switch to reverse to reverse the motor at the same speed.
And using the reverse switch to reverse the forward/back function of the single lever?
/Björn
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Hi Björn,
I don't know whether it will work or not, but you could always try it out and see what happens.
However, I would not recommend switching from forward to reverse while the motor was under load as I don't know if it would apply reverse power instantly while the motor was still spinning in the forward direction, or whether the controller would wait for the motor to stop rotating one direction before applying power in the opposite direction.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
Thank you,
I will borrow a programming cable and do some testing. Earlier, I tested switching a running motor from forward to reverse and it slowed down to stop, and after a second slowly accelerated in the opposit direction. However, this was without load.
Soft switching forward/reverse can be performed using the acceleration/deceleration setting?
Björn
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A question on fuses:
The ignition connector has very thin wires, and I connected to 48V. I also have a 48V thin sense cable to the BMS. I think I must have a fuse on each of these wires as the fuse on the controller and the fuses on the batteries are 200A. If there is a short involving these wires, they may start a fire.
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Battery balance wires are not typically fused as it could affect the balancing operation of the BMS unit, but if you are going to fit fuses on each balance wire, I would think a 5 Amp fuse will be low enough to blow if a short circuit occurs, and high enough to hopefully prevent any discernible voltage drop between the battery cells and the BMS.
If the ignition wires have to carry the full current required to energise the contactor, you will need to make sure that the fuse is big enough to handle the current. If you join the ignition wires through an ammeter, you can measure the actual current being passed through the wires and then make sure the fuse is rated slightly higher than the measured current. ;)
Alan
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Everything connected and tested at home. Now ready to be built-in in the boat.
See the film in my project blogg https://el-artella.blogspot.com/
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One more question - again:
My current setup has two ignition keys, one to the ignition input on the BMS, and one to the controller ignition input.
As the ignition input to the BMS controls the main contactor, it switches on the 48 V power to the controller.
Is it OK to omit the igntion switch to the controller and connect these two leads permanently?
Björn
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Is it OK to omit the ignition switch to the controller and connect these two leads permanently?
Hi Björn,
As long as it doesn't interfere with the correct operation of the precharge function then it will probably be ok to bypass the controller's ignition switch.
I would check the battery voltage on the controller B+ terminal to make sure it still increases gradually before the main contactor operates when the single ignition switch is turned on.
If both contactors (precharge and main) energise at the same time, this could indicate a problem with the precharge function.
You will also need to make sure that the power is cut to the controller when the BMS switch is turned off.
Alan
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You will also need to make sure that the power is cut to the controller when the BMS switch is turned off.
Hi Alan,
There is about 2s delay between precharge and main contactor, making the voltage gradually increase. The precharge resistor is 100 ohm.
When the BMS is switched off by the ignition switch the main contactor drops.
However, the voltage to the controller is kept by the internal capacitance in the controller, making the controller stay on. Can this harm the controller?
(I may put a resistor across the B+/B- to discharge.)
Björn
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Any residual voltage stored in the controller's capacitors will not cause any harm to the controller.
If your BMS is indirectly connected to the controller, make sure that the controller is not still able to draw power from the battery's BMS when the main contactor has disconnected the direct battery supply.
If the throttle stops working when the main contactor is off, then it is probably OK.
Alan
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Thank you, This is my connection diagram.
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Hi Alan,
If I use the brake signal as Neutral switch anyway, do I risk to harm the controller? I think the beeping/flashing will cease when the switch is reset into its Run position.
(The controller will be mounted in the engine room and the beeping/flashing will not be noticed from the helm position.)
Björn
Hi,
I would be carefull doing that. I thought the same myself for a outboard motor of a boat. When I tested using the break switch as an on and off switch for the motor we realised if you have throttle on and releases the break it would start up (depending on the throttle position). This could be dangerous because a falty connection might start up the motor. It depends on how you install it though (pull up, pull down resistor). Just be careful and test it before.
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I would be carefull doing that. I thought the same myself for a outboard motor of a boat. When I tested using the break switch as an on and off switch for the motor we realised if you have throttle on and releases the break it would start up (depending on the throttle position). This could be dangerous because a falty connection might start up the motor. It depends on how you install it though (pull up, pull down resistor). Just be careful and test it before.
Yes, I noticed that, but I will only use it as a ”safety switch”. The centre position of the throttle lever is the normal neutral.
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However, I have another problem.
When running at a fixed position of the throttle lever, the speed is constant, but after a while the motor runs slower. It is just as if I should move the lever.
If I then move the throttle lever it works as it should.
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Hi Björn,
Could it be that the controller and/or the motor is getting hot and this is automatically reducing the power?
Have you checked to see if either of them are getting excessively warm after continuous use?
Alan
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Hi Alan,
They do not become very hot. I will measure the temperature next time. It occures after just a couple of minutes at moderate speed.
It is strange that the speed is resumed when I move the trottle lever a bit towards higher speed. Maybe it is the throttle potentiometer, I will try a multi-position switch with a resistor ladder later.
Björn
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If you're able to easily measure the throttle voltages it would be interesting to see if the +5V and/or the throttle signal voltages drop slightly when the motor speed decreases.
Alan
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OK, I will try to measure the voltages. I just need to take the throttle apart to access them.
Björn
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I have been running today with high load, measuring temperatures and voltages. The speed was stable, so the previous speed change is still to be investigated.
The 5V voltage is stable at 4.5-4.6V.
The throttle voltage was 2V when standing still, 3.2V at normal speed, 3.5V at max speed and 1.9V at normal reverse speed.
The motor temperature went up to 45?C, and the controller 90?C. The ambient temperature was 28?C at start, but went up to over 30?C during the test.
I will test with a throttle consisting of a 12 position switch and fixed resistors instead of the potentiometer, as this will be more stable.
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Hi, another year has passed, and I an working on some upgrades.
The rotary switch with fixed resistors works fine, so the problem was probably the potentiometer and the salty environment.
I have 5 positions forward and 3 backwards. I have set the acceleration/decceleration to 600.
When I go from a forward or reverse position to neutral, the boat does not stop, and the prop will continue rotating so with a normal diesel I use the reverse to brake. When docking, I need to be able to switch more quickly between forward and reverse.
How low can the acceleration/decceleration be set? Does the controller brake the movement or just freewheel?
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Hi Björn,
The motor will continue to rotate (if the water is moving fast enough through the propeller blades) when the throttle is placed in the "Neutral" position while the boat is still moving unless the brake is also activated when the throttle is in the Neutral position. However, this would still produce the annoying 15 beep error code when in Neutral.
As I don't have any way of testing the different functions I can see in the programming software, I'm not sure how they are supposed to work, but it might be worth setting the Enable EBS Auto-Mode to 1:Enable and then set the EBS Auto_Mode Speed (rpm) to your maximum motor RPM and then see if there is any braking effect from the prop when the throttle is reduced while the boat is moving.
Unfortunately, I don't know whether the Auto EBS (regenerative braking effect) would be activated instantly or whether there would be a noticeable delay.
I would also set the Acceleration (rpm/s) and Deceleration (rpm/s) as high as possible to see if you can achieve a faster motor response when changing direction.
The acceptable range indicated in the software is 50~1200, but I’m not sure if the controller will actually accept a setting of 1200.
If your rotary switch contacts are "break before make" type, I don't know what voltage the throttle signal wire defaults to when the contacts are open between throttle setting changes. If the throttle voltage momentarily goes outside the working throttle range, I'm wondering whether it may cause a delay. :-\
Ideally the throttle signal voltage should default to ~2V if the circuit is momentarily disconnected between the different throttle setting positions on your rotary switch with your particular throttle setup. You should be able to use a 10k trimpot wired in parallel with your throttle and then adjust it to give the required ~2V default throttle signal voltage:
(https://i.imgur.com/tCXMl8R.gif)
Once correctly adjusted, this could be completely sealed with silicone or epoxy to protect against salt water ingress.
Please let me know if enabling the Auto EBS slows the boat as hoped when the throttle is moved to Neutral.
Alan
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Hi Alan and thank you for the answer,
Unfortunately I can not test new settings until launch in may, but I have fetched the controller from the boat to be able to set the parameters at home.
I have tried out various values, and set the maximum values that are accepted by the controller. These are the new settings:
Acceleration: 800
Deceleration: 800
EBS Auto_Mode: 1:Enable
EBS Auto_Mode Speed: 1000
The rotary switch is ”make before break”, so the voltage should not go outside the range.
After launch I will test the new settings. Maybe I have to momentarily activate the brake signal when going between forward and reverse.
Björn
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These are all my settings. Maybe someone has any suggestions on changes.