Author Topic: MPIII Regen issue  (Read 8744 times)

Offline N43122

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MPIII Regen issue
« on: May 01, 2012, 06:59:21 AM »
So, tonight I finished installation of a Cycle Analyst (which BTW I love!).  Having ridden a few miles I'm noticing I may have a regen issue.  When I hit the handbrake enough to activate the regen brake the Cycle Analyst indicates approximately a -6.5 amp charge going back into the battery BUT only for about 1 second.  The motor brakes all the way to a stop but as far as the Cycle Analyst is saying it's only putting power back into the battery for about 1 second.  Over the course of a 4.5 mile (2.1AH consumed) ride with many stops from 20-25mph to 0mph I managed only about 100mah put back into the battery.

Any ideas?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 11:47:17 AM »
Gary may be able to throw some light on this, as he also used a cycle analyst with his dual MPIIIs.



Just out of interest, what battery are you using?

Alan
 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 11:56:52 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 04:36:00 PM »
I have an old analog automotive charge/discharge ammeter on my Morgen 3Eman, and I have noticed a similarly brief pulse of current into the battery, tho the braking effect seems to maintain after the pulse is gone.

TTFN,
Dennis

 

Offline Sanfrancisco

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 06:43:37 AM »
I think we see only a brief monent of inverse current because in that moment the inductuve voltage is higher than the battery but later mp generates lower than battery voltage so there cannot be reverse current unless the breaking occurs at speeds high enough.

I tried to repeatively apply and release breaks and then more current went back.

Offline N43122

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 04:21:26 PM »
I can certainly understand that explanation but if true then the MPIII controller does not truly have regen braking in the sense that most would consider.  It is possible to charge the battery (reverse current) with a lower voltage than battery voltage with properly designed circuit.  If it's true that the MPIII only charges the battery when reverse voltage from the wheel exceeds battery voltage then I'm quite disappointed.

What leads me to believe the above is not happening is if it were true then I should see a near linear taper from max amps going back to the battery to zero.  As it is I see about -6 amps for one second then zero.   Now, perhaps the single cycle refresh rate of the Cycle Analyst is greater than the amount of time the regens tapers from max to zero, but I don't think so.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:24:40 PM by N43122 »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 05:50:30 PM »
Hi Folks,

How about this analysis?

1.  Fact:  When all the H-switches are off, and the wheel is rotating, a large voltage will be generated by the magnets sweeping over the coils of the stator.  With no current path, amps will be zero.  When a current path becomes available, the output voltage will be determined by impedance of the connected load.  In the case of the load being a battery, the regen output voltage will become the charging voltage of the battery at some unknown charging current. 

2.  Fact:  There exists within  the controller a ( the design is unknown to me)  switching system to connect the windings to charge the battery, i.e., regen mode.

3.  Fact:  A large voltage difference between a charging voltage and a battery will yield a large charging current.  (Think about putting a 3V battery on a 12Vcharger.)

4.  Conjecture:  What we are seeing as a current pulse is the result of closing the regen switch system while the coils are at high voltage relative to the battery. 

5.  Question:  Why doesn't the charging current continue to be noticeable at some lower level for some time after the switch closure?  It seems the voltage induced in the coils will continue to be high enough to charge the battery at some current level equivalent to the speed, so the charge current should drop as speed drops. 


Thoughts?

Come on, Alan, make me smarter!

TTFN,
Dennis


Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:23 PM »
Ah, I forgot that the battery charging current flowing  through the coil will cause a field to oppose the fixed field magnets and thus reduce the current.  We should still see a current, tho. 

Hmmm,  I gotta go paint my Morgen......

Dennis

Offline Sanfrancisco

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 06:38:15 PM »
Very interesting... Let us resolve this. I had these questions on my mind all week!
I was thinking that even with open circuit the voltage will not be that much higher at low speeds to exceed the battery.
Maybe Alan can chip in too?

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 10:33:53 PM »
I got tired of sanding, but while I was doing it I remembered some names from my youth, and since the Google is your friend, I found this :

"Faraday's Law of Induction

From the above description we can say that a relationship exists between an electrical voltage and a changing magnetic field to which Michael Faraday's famous law of electromagnetic induction states "that a voltage is induced in a circuit whenever relative motion exists between a conductor and a magnetic field and that the magnitude of this voltage is proportional to the rate of change of the flux". In other words, Electromagnetic Induction is the process of using magnetic fields to produce voltage, and in a closed circuit, a current.

So how much voltage (emf) can be induced into the coil using just magnetism. Well this is determined by the following 3 different factors.

1). Increasing the number of turns of wire in the coil. - By increasing the amount of individual conductors cutting through the magnetic field, the amount of induced emf produced will be the sum of all the individual loops of the coil, so if there are 20 turns in the coil there will be 20 times more induced emf than in one piece of wire.
 
2). Increasing the speed of the relative motion between the coil and the magnet. - If the same coil of wire passed through the same magnetic field but its speed or velocity is increased, the wire will cut the lines of flux at a faster rate so more induced emf would be produced.
 
3). Increasing the strength of the magnetic field. - If the same coil of wire is moved at the same speed through a stronger magnetic field, there will be more emf produced because there are more lines of force to cut.
If we were able to move the magnet in the diagram above in and out of the coil at a constant speed and distance without stopping we would generate a continuously induced voltage that would alternate between one positive polarity and a negative polarity producing an alternating or AC output voltage and this is the basic principal of how a Generator works similar to those used in dynamos and car alternators. In small generators such as a bicycle dynamo, a small permanent magnet is rotated by the action of the bicycle wheel inside a fixed coil. Alternatively, an electromagnet powered by a fixed DC voltage can be made to rotate inside a fixed coil, such as in large power generators producing in both cases an alternating current."


End copy..

So the maximum output voltage for a given magnet and coil is determined by how fast the coil is moving thru the magnetic field.  Once current starts flowing, then back EMF comes into play. 

Back to sanding.  I really want to start my largest painting.

TTFN,
Dennis

 

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 02:53:46 AM »

I tested the regen on my MPII earlier today, I switched on the regen and then struggled to pedal up to about 6mph and managed to put a measly 0.5Amp charge into my 25.9V LiPo pack. I then rode down the road at about 18mph and hit the regen button and recorded 10.75Amps of regen current. Obviously it is far more effective at the higher speed, but it does still put some power into the battery at the lower speed.

On my original MKI Pie I have been on some trips where I have done a reasonable amount of pedalling, instead of just using the motor continually, and the regen has actually put back at least 20% of the total power consumed.

I start with a fully charged pack and use my watt meter to record the battery power that I use. I then reverse the watt meter and use it to record the power that the charger puts back into the pack to fully charge it.
For example, if 0.628Ah is consumed during the trip and 0.498Ah is required to recharge the pack to the original voltage, then:
0.628Ah used - 0.497Ah from charger = 0.131Ah from regen.   

0.131Ah / 0.628Ah x 100 = 20.86%.

I haven't been able to test the regen on my MPIII, because it's still waiting to be fitted to my chopper bike.
When I finally get it all sorted, I should be able to see if the regen works differently to the earlier Pies.

Alan
 




Offline Avantgarder

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 07:51:31 AM »
IMHO and based on my experience regen technology as of today is nothing but a source for troubles.
My stock MPII internal controller was delivering all regen current to the battery so during a 12% descent it eventually died for me.
But let's say that it would still functioning...can we ignore the fact that a current of 10A is a killer for the battery ?
As you know I recently replaced it with the ecrazyman external controller http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4209.0  which is a godly controller but strangely it cuts current during regen (probably to protect itself and the battery) so you get 0.25 sec pulses of charging starts and stops .
Fills like riding a 1500w dildo  :P
I eventually disabled regen only to discover that...I end up charging the battery at work for the same 2 hours it took me when regen was on.

Williams racing company found a genius solution to taming these enormous current bursts. A kinetic device which harnesses braking energy into 36000 (THIRTY SIX THOUSANDS !) RPM via hydraulic pressure produced by the brakes and releasing them as current burst of 10 sec into electric motors during acceleration. They sold it for lots of $ to Porsche which put it into the 918 RSR:
http://www.supercars.net/Pics?v=y&id=5184&s=c&p=2011_Porsche_918RSRRacingLab9.jpg
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:05:45 AM by Avantgarder »

Offline csm

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 09:23:01 PM »
My stock MPII internal controller was delivering all regen current to the battery so during a 12% descent it eventually died for me.
But let's say that it would still functioning...can we ignore the fact that a current of 10A is a killer for the battery ?

Have you tried changing the settings on your regen braking (plugging it into computer via USB, and using the controller setting software)? I wonder what setting your regen was set at. What are your other settings?

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 11:38:44 PM »
Hi Avant....

The Porsche KERS is actually fully electric, not hydraulic.  It uses the regen power from motors braking the front wheels to spin up the flywheel, and then takes that stored energy to drive the front wheel motors under acceleration.  Just like our MPs use the battery.

I wonder how the gyroscopic effects of the flywheel affects the car.  To store that much energy calls for a pretty hefty gyro. 

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 05:09:23 AM »
CSM,
When my controller died regen was set at 50%.

Denis,
The Porsche RSR is actually hybrid : 3400cc V8 + Electric Motor and Lithium-Ion Battery.
I'm not sure but I think that the flywheel is rotated by the front axil via hydraulic pressure and not by a transmission. The picture shows massive hydraulic hoses coming into the flywheel assembly :
http://www.supercars.net/Pics?v=y&id=5184&s=c&p=2011_Porsche_918RSRRacingLab9.jpg

Offline csm

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Re: MPIII Regen issue
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2012, 09:04:12 AM »
When my controller died regen was set at 50%.

Can you post a screen pic on your settings?

What voltage battery are you using?