Author Topic: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.  (Read 7872 times)

Offline Hardcore

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Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« on: July 14, 2010, 04:36:45 PM »
HEy all,

I just finished the range test, I could go 20 min on full throttle and had 12 km
after 13km on 30km/h and 25 min were over,
after 14km my mp stopped working on 25km/h and lower.

I just helped the motor while accelerating to the desired speed.

So after 30 min and a average of 31 km/h (wheel size set to 2200)
This means I used about 24 amps on an average of about 50v to achieve 235 rpm
1200Watt input and 235 rpm average

not encounted for the losses like heat and stuff but still isn't this unreal?

Offline GM Brazil

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 05:24:18 PM »
It looks like my problem too. One week was normal, I travelled and let the battery charged and unplugged. When I use it next week was 50% of the range....

http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2166.0

Offline Hardcore

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 06:11:47 PM »
I knew about that post but I need help solving not understanding this problem as I am not a distributor or dealer.
I just want to get the 14km on full throttle that's all, it's now got a range of 14 km with pedalling hard.
I even think without the motor and just that pedalling I did to help the motor was going to get me much further.

So are there any suggestions about what to do?

Thanks to anyone who replies :D

Offline Leslie

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 09:49:41 PM »
I knew about that post but I need help solving not understanding this problem as I am not a distributor or dealer.
I just want to get the 14km on full throttle that's all, it's now got a range of 14 km with pedalling hard.
I even think without the motor and just that pedalling I did to help the motor was going to get me much further.

So are there any suggestions about what to do?

Thanks to anyone who replies :D

If you are still under warranty,

I would email TOM or your authorized dealer before doing any testing, if any returns are required I'm sure GM would appreciate replacing cells rather than a whole pack if you're up to the testing and repairs.  But I would think anything like that would void waranty but the new cells should be covered, this is just my opinion.

If youre out of warranty you could look at replacing all the cells with lipo, the voltages out the BMS are the same to the cells you have.  and you cant overload the lipo as they have much better discharging rate.  They should be safe enough in the GM box and protected by the BMS seals the deal.

It also depends on the state of the other cells.  Whether they are worth salvaging or the pack is not worth swapping out individual cells.  GM may replace the cells out of warranty at a cost.  This is the better solution as you wont have to mix chemistry or buy a whole new pack.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 09:53:02 PM by 317537 »

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Offline Hardcore

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 08:54:55 AM »
I don't think the mp's are out of warranty but i'll send an email.

Offline Hardcore

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 08:42:05 PM »
This time I went on an average of 27km/h and after again excactly 20 minutes the motor started shutting down.
Now this can be a coincidence or it is something else.
Before concluding I will test that 20 min thing and try to find out if it happens all the time at different speeds.


Offline GoldenMotor

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 03:07:22 PM »
i think one or two of the cells have failed. tom will tell you how to check which cell it is and get it replaced.

Offline GM Brazil

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 03:13:15 AM »
tom will tell you how to check which cell it is and get it replaced.

I think this is a reasonable compromise.

GM cant be the bike mechanics down the road for everyone on this planet.  It is not reasonable to be sending complete battery packs around the the world.

I feel some get there kits and enjoy the low price and don't mind wanting to bump the price up for the next customers wanting kits as long as they get the service that the latter customers will be paying for.

Why people get E-bike kits if there is no one around to fix the problems that will happen one day.  How would someone go about fixing a car with no local mechanic to save them.

We need to get the GM community into this culture of fix it or forget it.

I am not talking about anyone in particular.  But everyone here must remember this cant be compared yet to the auto vehicle industry where you can take your car to any mechanic and leave it there and like magic you come back and it all good.

It would be funny if someone expected to send a whole 2.2L engine back to japan just to get a fan belt replaced. lol.  seriously some people get into e-biking and expect just this.

It would be great if all the local bike shops had a clue what to do.  I handed my hub to a local bike shop owner and asked him to lace the wheel with a new rim.  A week later I had to do it myself  ::)

The parts he chose were not acceptable.

Sorry but this is it guys, looks like among us and the other forums like ES are the first ebike mechanics over the world.  I like the idea but some are not going to want a bar of it.

I support the community here with my heart and soul and GM along with it.  Maybe too much.  Sorry for posting so much.

My 2c AUD

Worth 1.6c USD

« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 03:27:08 AM by 317537 »

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Offline GM Brazil

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 11:14:49 AM »
I have no problem replacing just one cell. I only need help to find it ;) to me will be much better if they send only the replacement cells and not the complete pack. I would like also that at least for dealers that we could buy replacement bms circuit boards annd MP controller for example.

Offline Leslie

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 01:58:58 PM »
I have no problem replacing just one cell. I only need help to find it ;) to me will be much better if they send only the replacement cells and not the complete pack. I would like also that at least for dealers that we could buy replacement bms circuit boards annd MP controller for example.


You want to test properly?..


Its hard sometimes as the cells may only have one cell in a parallel block not up to the task.

Can you supply some pics of your battery and access to the pins on the BMS.  The bad cell may not be showing so obvious until you have the problem.

A 3 ohm 1kw resistor should do 16 amps on a 48v pack and 12 amps on a 36v pack and burn no more than 900 watts max at the highest resting voltages.


Two 5 ohm 1kw in parallel will allow 20 amps at 50v and do 500 watts per resistor.

You do this test.

Charge battery to full.

Write down the number of each cell block in the BMS on paper or a notepad, PC is fine.

Add 2.5 ohm resistance over the terminals .  


Do the test where you measure each cell block. Write down the time down one side and the voltage of each block under its name or number.

The bad cell block will show by a lower voltage soon enough..  Mark it so you remember.  If you can get access to the battery you need to find the bad cell in the block.

This will be hardest as they will all equalize between the highest and lowest cell.  Some pictures of you battery before I add more.  I don't believe in cutting out cells unless you need to.

Hard to get a big resistor. Make your own big ass resistor.  :P

Nichrome wire they use in heating elements and make your own.

http://search.dse.com.au/electronics/Nichrome%20Wire

Resistance of 13.4 ohms/metre and use enough in parallel to get your amps and cut equal lengths for the required ohms needed then coil around a heat dissipation method of your own choice..
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 07:24:52 PM by 317537 »

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Offline GM Brazil

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 11:13:47 AM »
oh boy!

Thanks! 

Check the post about my battery, there is photos of the  setup and BMS :D
http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2166.0

I'll try to find the 1kw or at least a 0,5kw resistor :D Will be better than a bunch of incandescent lamps ;)

Offline dicko

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 03:03:26 AM »
Hello 
Any luck with your battery? ive also had mine a short period and now having troubles.

I've had my E-Bike up and running for around 6 weeks now and it’s running well, until the last few times I've ridden it. The first 4 weeks I could ride to and from work on one charge, 9km to work, 9km return. Last week, I could only ride to work and halfway back, and the battery cuts out. A few days ago, I could only ride to work 9km before needing a recharge. Nothing has changed, I ride the same way each time, with hard tyres. I noticed on the site that a 48v12ah battery should do 50km on a full 48v charge, but im not getting anywhere close to this. I always use regen breaking where possible, and also peddle aswell. Is there a way to check if any lithium cells are faulty?

ive checked voltages as suggested by Goldenmotor, but now havent heard anything back regarding replacement under warrenty.
Have you had anyluck from GM?

regards

Offline Hardcore

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 05:09:38 AM »
I haven't had any luck trying to reach Tom but yao was kind enough to help me further but now it's Tom's move again to help me getting a new BMS as it could be the problem.
The cells can't be faulty if the fully charged voltage stays the same even when there's a range decrease or capacity decrease.
So the only part of my ebike that hasn't been damaged and repaired was the bms and yao thought the fets were worn out or something like that, com'n Tom help us.

Sincerely Hardcore

Offline Leslie

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Re: Range decrease of 48v gm battery on mp, help needed.
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 09:22:46 AM »
I haven't had any luck trying to reach Tom but yao was kind enough to help me further but now it's Tom's move again to help me getting a new BMS as it could be the problem.
The cells can't be faulty if the fully charged voltage stays the same even when there's a range decrease or capacity decrease.
So the only part of my ebike that hasn't been damaged and repaired was the bms and yao thought the fets were worn out or something like that, com'n Tom help us.

Sincerely Hardcore

My SLA's were rated to do 300 cycles at 100% discharge.  Except I only used 50% on my rides so they were rated at 600 cycles at 50% dod..

I got 6 mths out of my SLA's because I ride a lot.

How old are your batteries hardcore?

http://electricbicycleconversionkits.net/2010/02/battery-comparison-lithiummanganese-oxide-limn2o4-lithiumnickel-oxide-linio2/
"
In the last blog we compared LFP and LCO batteries based on some basic specifications. Here in this blog, we will compare Lithium-manganese oxide (LMO) and Lithium-nickel oxide (LNO) batteries according to the same specifications.

Even though LMO battery has somewhat lesser power and weight density, they have low operating cost in the long run. On the other hand, LNO will cost you more. In other words, LMO is more economical than the LNO battery. But when the operating temperature rises beyond 50 degree Celsius, LMO battery starts decaying and that too at extreme rate. Even though LNO battery has some disadvantages associated with it, it will work smoothly in temperatures ranging between -20 to 55 degree Celsius!
"

Everything I find is that the LiMn2O4 has a cycle life of 500 cycles at max dod.

There could be something different happening with your batter.  GM's specs on the site maybe exaggerated as there is no mention to what level these packs packs are rated at, if you don't discharge to max they may last 800 cycles.

Maybe GM should not have put a 1 year warranty on these packs.  I know the LiMn2O4 would be lucky to last me 8mths tops, if that.  So really for me expect this chemistry could last me a year would be a big ask.

You maybe different with you riding habits. I just ask people to consider how much use and how hot there packs could of been at any time.  Maybe GM should re assess the rating on the GM battery.

Maybe they need to advertise better specs.  Like, 1 year warranty or 800 cycles at 75% or 500 cycles at 100% dod.

I'm thinking I will give the GM packs a miss to be frank and build my own pack from A123 batteries.




http://cgi.ebay.com.au/8-A123-systems-NEW-2009-26650-Lifepo4-battery-cell-2300-/190422048004?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5609dd04


100% New A123 3.3V 2300 Li-Ion ANR26650M1A Battery
Nominal Capacity:           2.3AH/PC
Nominal Voltage:            3.3V
Internal Impendence:        8 m? typical
Recommended Charge :      3A to 3.6V CCCV 45min
Recommended Fast Charge:   10A to 3.6V CCCV 15min
Max Continuous Discharge:   70A                                            
Max Peak Discharge:       120A
Cycle Life at 10C discharge:   1000+
Weight:                   70 grams



OMG lil lifepo cell giving up 70A continuous.  If you want quality LiFePo4 cells, you pay through the nose.  GM cells are cheap and priced this way.

I start to purchase 8 pcs at $78AU a week from today, maybe 6X8 cells welded into 18.4ah 3.3v blocks a month.  so its going to take me 3 month, I hoping 2 months.

The total price will be  $1248 for a 18.4 ah pack.  This will not include the battery box and BMS.

Is GM selling a bad pack,  I think not.  It cost me $440 for SLA's that last less than a GM pack and I get no battery box with the SLA pack.

I will say that these packs are not LifePo and not like the A123 cell that costs you up 4x the cost of the GM cells.  The GM packs are good for light average use.  

For me the GM pack is not going to be good enough and I find myself looking at the better cells when I calculate what I want from my pack.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 09:31:29 AM by 317537 »

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