GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Just on May 31, 2014, 01:05:09 PM
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Hi All,
Are there any plans for MagicPie-4?
Thank you!
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Hey mate.
As a totally pleased MP III owner and user, totally as in 101%, and considering that a 4th generation of pies must bring something new, something better, what new technology can a 4th gen of pies bring to the market? Latest MP III versions are just awesome, has the power, has the speed, and oh boy it has the torque! So, could the best be made any better? Sorry, I just had to ask ;)
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I've heard some unconfirmed rumors that MP5 (4 is unlucky number in China) will use sine-wave internal controller.
It would be really nice feature especially if it would be possible to swap existing MP3 controller with new one.
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Yes everybody can walk the walk and talk the talk, but until we can get our hands on it ... it remains fiction...
Anyway what would be the advantages of a sine wave controller? If I'm not mistaking the MP III internal controller uses square wave ... anyone???
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Sine wave powered BLDC motors are typically much quieter. They don't have the high frequency whine square wave driven motors exhibit.
TTFN,
Dennis
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I just spotted this today! :):
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Magic-Pie-VECTOR-26-Inch-Rear-Conversion-Kit.html
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Why was it not announced?
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I just want to thank Gary for being so straightforward about the risk of running it on a "48" volt battery. Maybe GM China should be told about it....
TTFN,
Dennis
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What risk are you talking about Dennis, did I miss something in this thread?
Alan
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I just want to thank Gary for being so straightforward about the risk of running it on a "48" volt battery. Maybe GM China should be told about it....
Why there is a risk of running it in on 48V battery?
BTW#1, is there are the performance/speed/power charts for these motors?
BTW#2, why cannot find these motors on the GM China site? Are they available already? What's the lead time?
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Hi Alan,
This was at the bottom of the page:"
PLEASE NOTE: This motor is recommended to be run with a 24, 36 or 48 volt battery. A fully charged 48 volt battery can read as high as 58 volt and the controller will still function up to 59.9 volts. If you attempt to run this motor with a battery over 48 volts you will burn the fets that are rated at 63 volts max. A fully charged 60 volt battery can read as high as 69 volts and will fry the controller as soon as you apply power. For a warranty controller replacement you must send it back to us for inspection. If the fets are burnt from over volting your warranty is void.
Gary Salo
Golden Motor Canada"
I disagree with Gary's evaluation of the high voltage failure mode, however. The MP3 controllers that failed in my use were both fitted with 63VDC rated electrolytic capacitors. My experience tells me that if you subject electrolytics to voltages within about 10-15% of their max voltage rating you will experience cap failures at a higher rate than lower stressed caps. I am quite confident that if I had used the 36VDC battery I would not have had a problem. Do you remember anyone complaining about a fried MP3 controller running at 36V? 24V?
I think the FETs I found in the controllers were rated for several hundred volts.
I would be willing to bet a small amount that the engineer that came up with such a gorgeous design does not approve running those caps at "48" volts. ( about 58V actual volts)
TTFN,
Dennis
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As for MP4 vs MP3, are there any cons in MP4 (beside its pros)?
Will MP4 work with external BLDC Controller (let's say the same one as MP3 would be)?
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Will MP4 work with external BLDC Controller (let's say the same one as MP III would be)?
Assuming it's just the controller that is different it may not make any difference if you wish to use an external controller.
Although, if the new sine wave controller is sensorless then it would not require hall sensors, but we won't know whether it still uses hall sensors until we can find a bit more information on it.
Even if it doesn't have hall sensors, you could still use a sensorless external controller as the stator windings are unlikely to be any different to the MPIII.
This motor is recommended to be run with a 24, 36 or 48 volt battery.
Dennis, what Gary was try to get across is the fact that it should not be used with a battery with a nominal voltage of more than 48V. Because the controller is described as being able to accept voltages of up to 60 volts maximum, some people will wrongly assume that it is OK to run it from a 60V battery, but as we know, this wouldn't work.
There are probably thousands of MPIIIs running on 48V packs without problem. The early MPIII controllers did have some teething problems, but the later replacement controllers still seem to work fine, so there should be no concerns about running on 48V packs.
I have run all of my GM motors on my 51.2V LiPo pack without any problem (apart from the dual controller attempt where one controller died instantly and the other surviving controller that was further modified eventually blew many months later while delivering over 97Amps)
Do you remember anyone complaining about a fried MP III controller running at 36V? 24V?
Many of the failed MPIII and Smart Pie controllers I've seen on the forum have been caused by water ingress.
Alan
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I am curious. Has anyone tried the new Magic Pie Vector yet? There is also a Smart Pie version out now.
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As for SmartPie, is it less powerful, isn't it?
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How is it possible to use External Controller with MP3? I mean how should it be connected while the build in Controller in place? Should I take the build in controller out? What about rains then? While using an External Controller, should I put some cover in place of the build in controller?
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I am curious. Has anyone tried the new Magic Pie Vector yet? There is also a Smart Pie version out now.
I haven't yet tried the Magic Pie, but I have tried a 700C front Smart Pie with the new vector controller:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/P7222310_zps7c606fa4.JPG)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/P7212296_zps4fadddba.JPG)
The throttle response is amazing, but I had to reduce the acceleration setting as I kept spinning the front wheel while trying to pull away on loose surfaces because it was a bit too quick to respond on the 100% setting.
The other most obvious difference is the distinct lack of noise coming from the motor, I can now ride past pedestrians on pathways without them being aware of any motor noise.
I went for a bike ride with my wife (her bike doesn't have a motor) and she didn't even realise I had been using my motor until I told her, even though I was riding along right next to her for most of the ride.
I am still looking forward to trying a rear Magic Pie 5 with the vector controller:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/MagicPie5VectorController0_zps00f7b017.JPG)
I am not expecting the motor noise to be as silent as the Smart Pie because some motor noise can still be heard coming from the Magic Pies even when riding without a battery. ;)
As for SmartPie, is it less powerful, isn't it?
Yes, the Smart Pie is less powerful than the Magic Pie, but it freewheels more easily and the top speed is pretty much the same on the level, but it slows down more noticeably on hills.
How is it possible to use External Controller with MP3? I mean how should it be connected while the build in Controller in place? Should I take the build in controller out? What about rains then? While using an External Controller, should I put some cover in place of the build in controller?
You would need to make a cover plate from 2mm aluminium, perspex, or possibly even plywood. The original controller can be used as a template (and also as a drilling guide to ensure all the holes are drilled in the right place).
Alan
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I am still looking forward to trying a rear Magic Pie 5 with the vector controller
Look forward to hearing your impressions!
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So, finally is the new Vector Controller better than Lyen or Kelly Controllers?
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My suspicion is that it is too early to tell just yet, but Alan's feedback on his Smart Pie (Vector) sure does sound promising. Just from speculation, it sounds like GM have really pulled up their socks. It will be on my list if I have to replace my Magic Pie v2.
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I am curious. Has anyone tried the new Magic Pie Vector yet? There is also a Smart Pie version out now.
Yes. Have one running for a day now on 48V Life 10AMP battery. I'm having some weird issue with the controller not powering the motor after a full battery charge.
I've reported the issue to goldenmotor.ca, and wait for resolution. I can't get the USB application to check my MP Vector settings. I've with someone would shed some light on if there is a supported app for the vector, as I need to limit my speed to 32KM.
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Have one running for a day now on 48V Life 10AMP battery. I'm having some weird issue with the controller not powering the motor after a full battery charge.
Have you measured the battery voltage? Has it higher than 60V? How many cells do you have on your LiFe battery? 4*16=64>60V
I need to limit my speed to 32KM
What's the maximum of MP3 on the flat surface?
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Hey mate.
As a totally pleased MP III owner and user, totally as in 101%, and considering that a 4th generation of pies must bring something new, something better, what new technology can a 4th gen of pies bring to the market? Latest MP III versions are just awesome, has the power, has the speed, and oh boy it has the torque! So, could the best be made any better? Sorry, I just had to ask ;)
I don't know if it's technically possible, but it would be great if GM produced a version with gears and brakes enclosed inside the rear hub, like it's done in the bikes almost everyone uses in the Netherlands (http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2009/01/anatomy-of-reliable-everyday-bicycle.html) – it requires much less maintenance and is weatherproof. It would be possible then to fully enclose the chain, meaning that no cleaning or oiling would be required. I know that it's possible to use a motor in the front wheel and have whatever gears or brakes you want in the rear wheel, but imagine if something went wrong with the motor (for example, it suddenly blocked or started to rotate backwards (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5312.0)) when you ride downhill very fast! I think that motors in the rear wheel are much safer.
But IMO the biggest problem is not with the motor, but with the battery. I was told that I can't store my GM LiPOFe4 battery in temperatures below 0 deg. C, so in winter I must either ride without the battery or use another bike when I need to park outside! (or take the battery with me to the shop, for example, which would be far from practical). The solution to this is simple really – just attach something to the battery which could heat it when it's too cold (using the energy from the battery). E-bike conversion kits made in Canada should make it possible to park the bike outside when it's very cold, shouldn't they? :)
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So, that's the final verdict?
Should the new Vector Controller be better than Lyen's or Kelly's made Controllers?
As for the price they should be the same. But what's about performance?
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Hi Just
So here is my opinion, and it is just an opinion.
For background, I bought an MP3 a long while back, and had two internal controllers fail with very few hours. My third controller was a Lyen. It has been running well ever since.
It was a pain in the neck to implement the Lyen, simply because it was external to the hub motor. It is not a pretty sight, as the sense and phase winding connections are now outside the hub, and I had to find a spot to locate the Lyen box. Instead of having a prebuilt wiring loom, I had to find a good place to locate the Lyen, route the wires to and from the swing arm, protect the cables and connectors from the weather, physical damage. None of it was terribly difficult, it was just a pain in the neck. Once installed, the top speed was the same, the acceleration was similar, the hill climbing ability was similar. The only performance difference was that I had a reliable machine to ride.
And I complained loudly about the GM decisions that put underrated components on the MP3 controller. The design was brilliant, the assembly quality was fair to middling at best. It looked to me that components were selected on the basis of cost, not suitability.
So what?
The current assembly quality is visibly better in photographs, and the complaints about controller failure are nearly non existent with new products. I'm told the component ratings have been increased to provide a greater safety factor. They now have conformal coating to keep any water away from the electronics. All these are good changes that address my previous complaints about the controllers electronics.
The change from square wave to sine wave drive to the motor windings is a significant positive for reliability.. The reason we can hear the MP3 accelerate with a square wave drive is because the motor windings are vibrating from being hammered by the full current pulses. You should not confuse peak pulse current with average current. With normal digital controllers, each pulse is long enough to drive the winding to full current, say 50 Amps. By limiting the ratio of pulse on to pulse off the average current can easily be limited to some value, but it does not effect the current through the windings during each pulse, so the average of all those 50 Amps pulses is limited to 25 Amps average. With the sine wave controller, the pulse width can be made so short as to not allow the current to reach full value. It would be possible to limit the current to a few milliamps during an individual pulse. The pulse can also be made wide enough to allow the full 50 Amps of current. So the windings are treated more gently by the magnetic fields. And that leads to greater reliability. But the average current can be the same, so the total power can be the same.
So, if I were in the market for another system, I would prefer an integrated sine wave driven motor/driver package over a square wave external driver-motor system. The probability is that the reliability would be better.
Of course with my recent luck, I'd crash while doing a burnout and destroy the entire trike.....
Just an opinion.
TTFN,
Dennis
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I just want to thank Gary for being so straightforward about the risk of running it on a "48" volt battery. Maybe GM China should be told about it....
TTFN,
Dennis
What is the risk???? I bought one to use with my 48v/20ah... Is this not a good idea?????? Gary never included any sort of "warning" with my order??
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@alan
what is the speed of the Smart Pie in 700C with pedaling/without at which voltage?
i think that one will be my next ride :-)
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I just want to thank Gary for being so straightforward about the risk of running it on a "48" volt battery. Maybe GM China should be told about it....
TTFN,
Dennis
What is the risk???? I bought one to use with my 48v/20ah... Is this not a good idea?????? Gary never included any sort of "warning" with my order??
I would also like to hear what the risk is and where did I state this?
Gary
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So, what's the maximum speed with the new Vector Controller (48V battery)?
BTW, how much the speed might be increased with 60V battery (external controller)?
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Hi Folks,
Please go back and read the 11th entry in this thread.
TTFN,
Dennis
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So, what's special in the 11th post? Was max speed mentioned there?
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So, what's the maximum speed with the new Vector Controller (48V battery)?
BTW, how much the speed might be increased with 60V battery (external controller)?
The max speed would depend on several factors, battery voltage, tire size, rider weight, uphill/downlhill etc. In my case I'm 230 lbs / 107 kgs, run a 26inch tire and have a 12s lipo battery (44.4v). On level ground I can hit 40km/hr. I've had it doing just shy of 50 km/hr on a hill and on my bike it was faster than I want to go on a regular basis.
If you used a 60v battery the speed increase would be linear with the voltage if it wasn't for wind resistance afaik.
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Hi Folks,
Please go back and read the 11th entry in this thread.
TTFN,
Dennis
Is this for me to go back and find the risk of running a 48 volt battery?
There must be some misunderstanding somewhere. If I ever said such a thing then please point me to it so I can go back and correct it. I have never used anything but 48 volt batteries on all of my Magic Pie kits other then a few 36 volt and 24 volt test rides to see the difference.
Gary
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Hi Folks,
I wrote a lengthy technical reply to the last few entries in this thread, and went back and deleted it all. My concerns about low rated MP3 components has been been addressed in the Vector controller. Buy what you want. I will probably be buying a MP4.
I am a very satisfied customer of Gary Salo, and highly recommend dealing with him.
It is still my opinion that a component labeled as a "48 Volt Battery" should put out close to 48 Volts, not 58, and 63 Volt rated electrolytic capacitors should never be used in a system powered by 58 VDC. They would be fine for use at 48 actual Volts, but would exhibit a high infant mortality rate when used at 58 actual Volts. Which was exactly the case in the early MP3.
TTFN,
Dennis