Author Topic: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor  (Read 10588 times)

Offline Andrew

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swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller and 48v battery for a 48v GM 1000w HBS motor

What parts in total would be needed to do this?
1. external controller
2. HBS motor and wheel
3?
4?

What new cables would be needed? and would it be a straight forward swap over

Andrew :)

Offline GM Canada

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 04:52:35 AM »
1- 48v1000w motor and wheel
1- external controller

That sounds about right. All the plugs from your current controls will just plug directly into the wiring harness of the external controller. Sounds simple enough.

Now my question is why?

Gary

Offline Andrew

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 07:33:59 AM »
Why? Always a good question!

Well the first thing I should ask is what are the main performance differences between the two motors?

I'm happy with the PIE, but i'm curious about the 1000w HBS. Such as,
1. will the HBS wind quicker?
2. have quicker take-off?
3. Will it have similar top speed?
4. Will it be quieter?
5. Lighter?
6. Will range be more,less or the same? (GM 48v/12ah)
7. Hill climbing?
8. Will I lose any functions that are on the PIE?

ideally i'd like a quieter, more discreet motor, that has quicker take-off than my PIE.

Andrew :)



Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 03:35:48 PM »
Hey Andrew

You should get a front pie instead and some earmuffs :D

hehe

Offline Andrew

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2010, 05:12:11 PM »
i'm not sure i'd have the balls to ride two pies, sounds like an accident waiting to happen  :D

I PIED to work today and the temperature was about -8c. I ride pretty hard, take no prisoners and get in every cars way  :).   ..........But two Pies?   No way  -  HARDCORE!! :D

Offline Leslie

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2010, 05:29:58 PM »
Hi Andrew.

Take offs are somewhat limited by your choice of wheel size and or 6 fets controllers.

Source out a 12 or 18 fets job and you may see a difference on both HBS and MP.

I need to do more inductance testing on a removed stator of the Pie.  Something is weird about it.  This weirdness has great potential to exploit or to take away some performance.  when I get this 12 fet controller up and running on the Pie I will let you know if my suspicions as to the weirdness are correct.

I havent tried that cap mod on the release pulse to cruise control as I just figured it should work and took the week off.  SOZ

Bring it on

Offline Andrew

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2010, 07:25:40 PM »
no worries les, i'm about to add a larger front outer chainring(48 tooth) and a 7 speed freewheel with an 11 tooth cog which has been as hard to find as rocking horse sh;t. This will help me keep up with the PIE when it's at full speed.  I plan on fitting hydraulic brakes very soon, but there will be a fair bit of cable relocation on the bike. I've also got rid of the front de-railer and gear shifter and am planning on putting a left hand twist shifter to operate the rear gears on the freewheel as I find it hard to change gear on the right side when controlling the throttle at the same time.

As for regen, I will have it relocated to a button and I will see how I get on
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 07:28:26 PM by Andrew »

Offline GM Canada

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2010, 03:49:37 AM »
Why? Always a good question!

Well the first thing I should ask is what are the main performance differences between the two motors?

I'm happy with the PIE, but i'm curious about the 1000w HBS. Such as,
1. will the HBS wind quicker?
2. have quicker take-off?
3. Will it have similar top speed?
4. Will it be quieter?
5. Lighter?
6. Will range be more,less or the same? (GM 48v/12ah)
7. Hill climbing?
8. Will I lose any functions that are on the PIE?

ideally i'd like a quieter, more discreet motor, that has quicker take-off than my PIE.

Andrew :)




Sheesh so many questions.. I'll go with..

No
Yes
faster
yes
yes
less
worse
No

Gary  :D
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 03:57:50 AM by GM Canada »

Offline GM Canada

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2010, 03:56:58 AM »
I've also got rid of the front de-railer and gear shifter and am planning on putting a left hand twist shifter to operate the rear gears on the freewheel as I find it hard to change gear on the right side when controlling the throttle at the same time.


Or you could do as I did. My bike is only a six speed with no front derailor. I moved the thumb throttle to the left side. It took a very short time to get used to and I didnt have to buy anything else to accomidate the twist shift on the right. 

Gary

Offline GM Canada

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 04:00:22 AM »
Hey Andrew

You should get a front pie instead and some earmuffs :D

hehe

lol...

Very funny, but true! A second pie solved any issues I was having, now its all WooHoo and YeeHaw!

Gary

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2010, 08:22:00 AM »
Hey true that Gary

Increase in take off, accelerates on hill climbs and increase in range who cares what it sounds like!!

I don't think I could go back... Plus the weight distribution is so much better. The kits should come in a pair standard lol

Offline Andrew

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2010, 08:28:17 AM »
I've also got rid of the front de-railer and gear shifter and am planning on putting a left hand twist shifter to operate the rear gears on the freewheel as I find it hard to change gear on the right side when controlling the throttle at the same time.


Or you could do as I did. My bike is only a six speed with no front derailor. I moved the thumb throttle to the left side. It took a very short time to get used to and I didnt have to buy anything else to accomidate the twist shift on the right. 

Gary

Gary, thanks for answering my questions above.  As for the twist shift, I will put it on the left side (upside down) i'll just have to twist 'up' to go up a gear. That's the plan away., but knowing me i've forgotten something obvious.

Monkey,....  my pie slows right down on hills and eventually dies :-\

Offline Leslie

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2010, 08:31:35 AM »
The initial current during take off for the Pie with the MC seems to be limited.

Like if I pull the throttle on hard I read the CA and Im lucky to pull 5 amps holding the bike at a stand still.

When testing the inductance of the Pie it came short of the HBS.

Side by side comparison MP to HBS is once the MP gets a little RPM happening the current shoots up very high into the good hill climbing ability category.

If you want the Pie to take off like a rocket, a small wheel diameter allows the RPM to go higher at the initial take offs.

Another fast solutions is to get 12 fet controller mod it to do 60 amps max and double the MAX amps by using two packs.

Some of those infineon controllers can easily do 40 amps at 72v 2880 watts, at 48v 60 amps is still 288o watts so this works well.


A big fat C rate pack and current into the 60 amp mark will certainly get the bike going off the mark.

The efficiency could possible be regained with a lower continuous setting.

At ES they are suggesting a 2.5 phase current to 1 pack current ratio is good. 60A max 24A cont.

The MC can do 50 amps max without a hitch if you open up the shunt path and good cooling.  

A lot of heat can get up over the controller shunt and feed it to the fets, again, I think the meager 20 amp shunt is evil.  The software is fine to manage the currents so to control more current into the controller.

Problem we are having is the GM controller is designed for the GM BMS. When we add another shunt with a CA standalone even though its a 100 amp max shunt. it still adds ohms to a circuit.

Othe BMS's may have a shunt in them too.

By the time the current gets to you motor its been through three resistors.  Software management starts to lose its accuracy when all these shunts are  already doing the AMP limitation.

Ha Im almost tempted to bridge my shunt full closed and just use the Ping BMS shunt and use the software to control the whole thing.

The software does work if you give the controller something to work with.

That daid if you want a pocket rocket go for a P string of cells or better still a dual pack.

Choice  Dual Pack vs Dual Pie.  I would go for the second pack in a heart beat.

You can get the second Pie after you get the second pack up and running.

The dual Pie I see now why it is good.  It will double the torque in this take off moment the MP is at its weakest.  You don't need the second pack just a second Pie.

However the second pack gets you better range and better life span if you desire to Push your motor/s to the max.



« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:34:07 AM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2010, 08:38:39 AM »


Monkey,....  my pie slows right down on hills and eventually dies :-\


Something is wrong wrong wrong.  My 26" belts up the hills.  Vooom.

I must do a video of a 26" MP ride at its serious best.  50 amps and off road..



Bring it on

Offline Andrew

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Re: swapping Magic Pie motor with internal controller for a GM 1000w HBS motor
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2010, 08:41:39 AM »
Some hills near me are quite steep, but I have also felt the motor struggling on very slow slightly ascending inclines.  I tought above all  else that the PIE's main benefit would be hill climbing. top speed was not important to me.
I suppose that's why I'm curious to try a 1000w HBS
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:43:35 AM by Andrew »