GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Reviews => Topic started by: Jazzjerry on November 17, 2009, 11:04:55 AM
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Hello Everybody,
Let me introduce myself.
I am Jeroen C from the Netherlands. I have been looking to buy a hubmotor kit for a while now and while browsing the web and reading up on al sorts of stuff I decided to go for the Magic Pie kit. The plug and play idear of this kit made me choose it. I don't have the time to solder my own stuff together and it seems like this kit is simple to install in an hour or so.
To give you an Idear and a review of the complete transaction from start to finish I am going to make this forum message an keep it updated when the status of the kit changes.
So door to door from Golden Motor Home to My home in the Netherlands.
First of all I would like to tell you that I first tried to order the kit through the dutch dealer Devi-Comfort BV.
They answered my first email stating that they could deliver the Pie Kit, After asking them a quote several times I am still waiting for an honoust answer.
In other words they did not reply when I realy wanted to make my order. So I crossed out that option and I have now ordered the Magic pie kit straight from Golden motor.
Here is what I ordered
a 2nd generation Magic pie kit (high speed+hight torque)
MagicPie Rear Kit - 28inch Rim
Item Number MP-28R
The 48v volts lifepo
Lithium Battery Rear Pack - 48V12AH
Item Number LFP-4812S
The battery rack
Rear Battery Sliding Rack - Aluminium
Item Number RAK-001
Pedelic sensor
led lights front and rear
Complete brake set and sprocket.
Shipment costs ended up being 360,00 $
Did not get my invoice yet. Will let you guys know when I do.
Best regards,
Jeroen C
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18 Nov 2009
Today I got a reply and an apology from Devi-Comfort BV in the Netherlands www.devi-comfort.com (http://www.devi-comfort.com) for taking so long before I got their quote. I was in the quotation proces with GM already and I wrote GM that Dennis from Devi-Comfort bv replied and gave me a quote. Because I save on the shipment costs and have someone to deal with in the Netherlands I choose to buy from them.
Here is the email I got from Devi Comfort bv.
Beste Jeroen, Dear Jeroen
Mijn excuus voor de vertraging. Excuse me for getting back so late
The Magic Pie kit costs 172,-- euro, The parts below are also ordered.
-1xDisc brake plate 8,93 €
-2xDisc brake activator 17,86 €
-1xConversion gears 7,98
-1xBATTERY, LI-ION-4812S 395,07 €
-1xSliding rack for battery pack 18,78 €
total before tax 19% 620,62
Incl 19% tax 738,54 €
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18 Nov 2009
So I ordered From Devi, (Dennis)
I did not get a delivery time quotation. I explained to Davi in my order reply email that I would like the pie to be delivered within a month.
I hope this can be done. Otherwise I might still order through Golden Motor.
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Is this your first ebike?
If so youre going to love this alternative form of transport. And you got a Magic Pie :P. I just have the old Model: HBS36R running at 48v and two years down the track I am still in awe over its abilities.
It may not be related but made an ebay purchase 10Xlm2576 for chips designing led drivers from China they arrived today after 20 long days. Such a small package from so far away still managed to make it. It took some time to arrive to Australia as you could imagine, 17 whole days. IMO thats pretty good service. Be patient my friend :D
I am very interested in the Magic Pie and everything about it.
I will be doing some off topic stuff on my led drivers soon so maybe sit back and chat about some things with the other members while you wait.
I used to hate ordering things online as I was always scared they would never arrive. Over the years Ive mellowed somewhat.
Soon enough the PIE will be yours and ebike freedom will be a reality.
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Hoi Jeroen,
First of all: thanks a bunch for the detailed post on the ordering process! Living in Belgium, I also checked devi-motion, but their website inspired little confidence at first glance. How did you order the specific model of the Pie (2nd gen, high speed, high torque)? I see no such option on the website. My self-designed trike is going to achieve some good speed so I'll need one of those puppies too :).
Thanks again, and keep us posted!
Gijs
Meeuwen, Belgium / occasionaly Delft, NL
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24th November 2009
So this is it,
I ordered the Magic pie kit and xtra,s from Devi-Motion (Dennis). Today the Magic Pie appeared in his webshop which is what I was waiting for. Dennis told me he was going to be able to deliver within 4 weeks. To buy Him a bit xtra time I will start counting down from as today. This is what I ordered.
(http://myshop.s3-external-3.amazonaws.com/shop1082500.pictures.nf_D1000221-s.JPG)
Order summary
Dear J.Compagne,
DeVi-Comfort BV has received the following order with
Order number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Article Description Quantity Price Total price
D1000225 BIKE CONVERSION, 28" MAGIC PIE, Rear wheel with integrated motor and controller. Less wiring!. Multi voltage controller from 24VDC up to 48VDC power and speed will increase according the supplied voltage 24VDC-250Watt up to 48VDC-1200Watt. 1 € 190,72 € 190,72
D1000004 BATTERY, LI-ION-4812S, 0, 5 times life of Lead Acid and 2 times of NiMH, In strong alumium housing, Non-toxic, Compact size and light weight, For all high power output applications 1 € 391,55 € 391,55
D1000016 BIKE CONVERSION, PED-001 PEDELEC, 21, Pedelec Device (PAS) 1 € 9,11 € 9,11
D1000017 BIKE CONVERSION, RAK-001 SLIDING RACK, 0, Sliding rack for battery pack LFP?, (Battery and Charger not included!) 1 € 21,47 € 21,47
D1000018 BIKE CONVERSION, FRONT LED LIGHT, 0, 24/36/48V Led front light only 2 Watt and 7200 MCD output 1 € 9,11 € 9,11
D1000019 BIKE CONVERSION, REAR LED LIGHT, 0, 24/36/48V Led back light 1 € 10,04 € 10,04
D1000021 BIKE CONVERSION, DISC BRAKE ACTIVATOR, 6, Disc brake activator 2 € 18,34 € 36,68
D1000022 BIKE CONVERSION, DISC BRAKE PLATE 140mm, 6, Disc brake rear 1 € 9,11 € 9,11
D1000023 BIKE CONVERSION, ACC-050 6 speed cassette, 1, 6 speed gear freewheel 1 € 8,43 € 8,43
D1000185 BIKE CONVERSION, DISC BRAKE PLATE 160mm, 6, Disc brake front 1 € 9,11 € 9,11
shipping cost (Belarus) € 0,00
Payment cost (By bank transfer) € 0,00
19% VAT of € 695,34 € 132,11
Total price € 827,45
Thank you for ordering with us. The order will be shipped to you as soon as possible.
Again I will keep you guyss updated.
Best Regards,
Jeroen Compagne
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To answer some of your questions,
This is my first e-bike build. (let the PIE be with me soon). I like the Idear of low noise speed. I have realy bad knees and threfore have not been riding a pushbike for several years now. I live in the Netherlands (where everybody ownes 1 bike) Well, to be honoust I dont. I live nearby a national park and I would loe to ride through there without killing my knee's.
For ordering the second generation from DEVI (I think GM only sells 2nd GEN Pie's since the 1st gen was just a prototype) So I trust that the pie is the 2nd gen.
May the Pie's be with us soon...... ;D
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Ok, thanks for the update. Regarding the 2nd gen Pie (and the different versions, the low speed high torque, high speed low torque and high speed high torque), I've seen some confusing information pass by as to whether the high speed versions will be sold in small quantities.
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I sent an email to Dennis at devi-motion asking about delivery times for the Magic Pie (and related components, like battery), he says the shipment will arrive dec. 11th! That's really good news and I'll be ordering as well, very, very soon :)
ps: I might add I sent the email yesterday evening at 22:30, and got a reply at 23:30 already, thumbs up!
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Hello folks!
I am new to this forum and I just wanna say thanks to Jazzjerry, because now I can buy this Magic Pie from devi and the shipping cost is 75% lower than if I would buy the same item from goldenmotor! They would shipp for no less than 260 eur to Slovenia, and devi shipps for 46 eur....
So, Jazzjerry... you saved me 200+ eur THANKS!!!!!
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Hello everybody,
I paid my pie kit last week and got a letter from Dennis.
I quote
Beste Jeroen,
Wij hebben de betaling ontvangen. Niet alle delen zijn op voorraad, maar zullen 10-12 per luchtvracht naar ons verstuurd worden.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Dennis Vroegindeweij
In English this means something like:
Dear Jeroen,
We have received your payment. Not all ordered pieces are in stock but will be shipped (by air) on the 10th of december from Golden Motor to us.
Best regards,
Dennis Vroegindeweij
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Another update 8 dec 2009
Like I explained before, I have not got a pushbike at the moment. So I have been looking around for one and tonight I am going to visit a potential buy.
Its a well known brand in Holland called Gazelle They have been building bikes known for their quality since 1892.
(http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/site_files/uploads/mediabank/images/historie2.jpg)
So I found this realy nice 2nd hand Gazelle hybrid that suits me.
I also ordered a seatpost with suspension and a cycle analist through ebay.
So I think I should be sorted soon.
Best regards,
Jeroen
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You didn't say, but I hope you ordered the rear wheel kit.
The front fork on the bike you photographed looks like
an aluminum fork, which is problematic with the
front wheel drive.
I had to replace my fork with a chrome-molybdenum fork
before (ok, after mounting and destroying) my wheel.
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I thought the Magic Pie only came as a rear wheel kit. At least when I bought/ordered the kit they were only sold as rear wheel kits.
I hope they deliver me the wright one.
P.S. I bought the bike.
Its right here in my living room.
Now just wait for the rest of the goodies to arive.
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Did you get your MP? I also orderd from devi and do not know when the shippment will be delivered...
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I ordered as well, and should have arrived in the same shipment. I haven't heard yet from him either, but I don't know what transport arrangements from Schiphol to his place are, so I'll give it a couple more days before worrying about it :). As he stated the flight was inbound for Saturday, so assuming nothing is happening on Sunday, we're only one (not even complete) day in the wait...
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The Magic Pie motor doesnt come with the magic controller,
well, at least not a separate controller.
The speed controller is integrated into the wheel on the Magic
Pie, so you just need to get the connectors, throttle and buttons.
Yes, they only sell the Magic Pie in rear wheel so far, but
I am one of the few that want the front version instead.
I didn't know if you ordered the pie or the original kit.
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@ e-lmer: I ordered the front version from devi-motion (Dennis) and got confirmation that this is indeed what is going to be delivered (and should have arrived at Amsterdam - Schiphol airport already). So it appears they are being sold. I did not buy the kit, but bought the motor, battery pack, throttles (both thumb and twist as I don't know which I will prefer yet) and front and rear led lights separately. I will let you know/confirm once I hold the motor in my hands that the front version is indeed being sold already :) Should not take long..
I want the front version as I designed, and am now building, my own trike and it will slim down it's profile. I don't need space for a sprocket as the trike is going to be classified like a scooter, there will be no pedals, so also no chain and gears.
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Here is a e-mail from Dennis...
Dear Gasper,
We had some tr4ouble with the airshipment. It's very busy at the moment but our shipment will be send out tomorrow and we send out the goods next week.
Sorry for the delay.
Met vriendelijke groet/Kind Regards,
Dennis Vroegindeweij
We will have to wait for another week...(hopefully)
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He could've cc'd me on that one.. I read it here first, but I prefer to read this directly in an email than through a forum that I just happen to visit. He's losing him some points on customer feedback..
I'll shoot him an email tonight to check up on things. I'm not in a particular rush, but one should be notified of these things through more 'official channels'.
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hey all....
Good news from dennis-shippment starts on thurstday... I have allready prepered my bike, just need to mount the magic ;)
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I called today, shipment is being cleared by customs today, will arrive at devi-motion tomorrow. I'm going to pick up myself all the way from Belgium, need to do some fitchecks on my 'bicycle' before welding begins :)
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Hello Everybody, 22 dec 2009 Netherlands
I E-mailed Dennis and the shipment will probably be at Devi-Comfort on Thursday.
As I read I think that is already confirmed. By other buyers.
Wil keep you posted on the results.
Jerry
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22 Dec 2009 Netherlands
Just got of the phone with Dennis,
And according to him they get the shipment delivered on Wednesday.
Thursday I will be ready to pick up my goods.
Thumbs up for Dennis, He deliveres within a decent period. Not completely within a month but I knew this was going to be a tight schedual when I first ordered.
Will keep you updated.
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I picked up my Magic Pie at Devi-Comfort around 16:30 today. The shipment came in and Dennis and his son(?) where preparing the packages for shipping tomorrow, so you can rest assured they will be sent from NL headquarters to your respective places tomorrow, I saw it with my own eyes...
Very friendly guy Dennis, thinkering on lot's of projects as well (converting 45km/hr limited 'senior cars', for lack of the propper terminology, to electric etc.). That's a good thing, means he knows what he is talking about in terms of motors, controllers, batteries etc.. since he is working with them himself. And I like that kind of entrepreneurship. He let me have a spin in one of the electric cars, handed me the car and said 'see you back in a bit' and went back inside, great kind of trust :)
I got the front wheel version as seemingly one of the only ones so far, so if anyone has questions that I can already answer, very happy to. I can't test the wheel yet as the battery didn't arrive yet (couldn't be air freighted, it will be sent to me later), but any kind of dimensional checks etc, no problem.
Concluding so far: nice to do business with Dennis, very friendly both on the phone and in person. Just a tad snappier on email replies and I'm all happy (my expectations, for the record, are replies within one business day, yes, this is the time critical internet-generation talking :) ). But the overall 'experience' is definitely positive! Based on experiences so far I can definitely recommend doing business with him.
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24 Dec 2009
I also Picked up the Magic Pie this afternoon.
Everything seemed in order. Through miscommunication I only ordered a Magic Pie without the rest of the kit.
Dennis gave me the brake handles and twist throttle anyway. Good service.
Now I have gotten home and had some time figuring the wire diagrams out.
Some things just don't make sence to me. I got the 8 pin connector cord with the Magic Pie and a baggy with loose connectors to connect to the rest of the components.
I have got
1- Break levers 2 wires
2- Pedelic sensor (with a connector that fits the 8 pin connector cord.
3- Shift throttle 6 wires. 3 of which I understand where to connect
4- Led Front light
5- Led Back light
Missing is the cruise control switch.
I will send Dennis an email to ask him to ship that as well. The batteries had not arrived which he is going to send me later anyway.
Anyway, I made a picture of my problems with the connectors and wireing that don't seem to make much sence.
Hopefully someone here can help me out. Maybe save my picture and fill in the missing links.
I call this THE COLOURFULL MAGIC PIE PUZZLE! :D
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I thought you can only order a complet kit of Magic Pie? Dont tell me I should have told dennis to deliver a whole kit - that is Magic Pie, throttles, brake levers and control switches!?
This things are included in kit on GM site!!
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Hopefully someone here can help me out. Maybe save my picture and fill in the missing links.
Jazzjerry,
The attached pictures should hopefully help.
Alan
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26-12-2009
Hello Bikemad,
Thank you very much for helping out.
I see that you added the cruise control button as well.
I am waiting for that part still but am happy to see that I now have a complete wiring diagram.
This should get me sorted I think.
Here is some update photo's of my project.
Could not help myself today 2nd xmas day of to fiddle with my new pie and bike.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52292.jpg)
The start........ Fittet a new cranck since the old one was wobly.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52302.jpg)
Fittet the pedelic sensor. The black washers in between are there becouse otherwise the sensor would hit the gears. There is no room to fit the magnet disc. The magnet disc also did not fit the shaft of the cranck. I think I will glue 4 of the 5 magnets to the gearwheel eventually.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52312.jpg)
This is the space I have got left between the sensor and the gears. The gearwheel has 4 hex bolts and I think the magnets will fit the bolts hex holes perfectly. I hope 4 magnets will be sufficent since the magnet disc has 5.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52322.jpg)
Fitting the 6speed gears.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52342.jpg)
Fitted.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52362.jpg)
Next thing I did was fit the wheel. WOW its very much of centre. Did read about this in the forum already but did not think it would be this much. I don't think I will be able to fit a normal atb tire. Will have to look for something a lot narrower. I also read about someone respoking the wheel to counter the of center problem. How did this work. (any pictures?)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52372.jpg)
O.k. So here is an overview so far. Have not put the tire on the wheel since it is to wide and will rub the frame. Also I have not fitted the Disc brake disk yet since I did not receive any bolts and washers with them to do so. Have to pick some up next wheek.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52382.jpg)
Another overview.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52392.jpg)
Here I am fitting the controls. My normal gear shifter had to be re-positioned since the throttle took its space. Wil have to switch gears a bit more difficult now.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52402.jpg)
My girlfriend asked me if all the ebikes had this much wiring........ I said yes... not even all the wiring is there yet. :o
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52412.jpg)
Last but not least but enough for today...... I fitted my stand alone cycle analyst. I have read about some great xtra options and would like to use the speed limmiting function of the cycle analyst. I think however the voltage to the controller will go down when you use the speed limmiting function of the cycle analyst.......... ??? Will this cause the controller to get into safety low voltage cut out mode? :-\
Just wondering.
Wouldlike to have this option since in the Netherlands You are only allowed to go 25 kph. Would be nice to be able to choose a lower speed when you see cops trying to catch up with you.....
;D
Again thanks for the help with the colourfull pie puzzle.
Best regards Jeroen Compagne
www.beeldhout.nl (http://www.beeldhout.nl)
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This off center is very strange.... Check this, from the GM web site:
Any one knows why, or if this is correct? Do we correct this with washers and nuts?
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Best regards Jeroen Compagne
www.beeldhout.nl (http://www.beeldhout.nl)
nice bike you got there,
kevin h.
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Fitted my stand alone cycle analyst. I have read about some great xtra options and would like to use the speed limmiting function of the cycle analyst. I think however the voltage to the controller will go down when you use the speed limmiting function of the cycle analyst.......... ??? Will this cause the controller to get into safety low voltage cut out mode? :-\
Jeroen,
There's no need to worry about low battery voltage going to the controller as this does not happen with the Cycle Analyst.
The Cycle Analyst achieves the speed and current limiting by overriding and reducing the throttle signal voltage going to the controller, not the battery voltage.
Your build is looking very nice so far, and it's good to see the pictures of your progress.
I bet you're really looking forward to getting the battery fitted now!
Next thing I did was fit the wheel. WOW its very much of centre. Did read about this in the forum already but did not think it would be this much. I don't think I will be able to fit a normal atb tire. Will have to look for something a lot narrower. I also read about someone respoking the wheel to counter the of center problem. How did this work. (any pictures?)
The rim is not exact in the middle but it works fine.
I am thinking of realign the wheel. Shorten the spokes in the Sprocket side and make the spokes on the diskbrake side longer.
The rim will go to the middle of the bike. Like with a racingbike wheel Fig. A.
(http://www.velofilie.nl/images/wieltj15.gif)
Thanks for the reply.
Because the Magic Pie has such a narrow gap between the spoke flanges, I don't think you will be a ble to offset the rim very much, I guess about 4-5mm might be just possible without reducing the wheels lateral rigidity too much.
It would be nice to have an update on how successful you are with trying to realign the rim.
Alan
I reallign the wheel with the spokes. The rim is moved 5 mm to the sprocketside. That is not much but the tyre was very close to the frame. Now there is a bit more space.
Good luck with the rest of the build.
Alan
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28 dec 2009
Ok next update.
I discovered some problems caused by myself. I have a 28" wheel bike but it has a ISO Bead Seat Diameter of 622.
The Magic Pie wheel I ordered is also 28" but has a ISO Bead Seat Diameter of 635.
Pffff Wel here is the problem. I cant find any suitable tyres low profile enough to fit the pie's rim and not hit the frame since it is off center so much already, and now also is larger then the origional rim.
So I have planned to get a new rim spoked around the pie. Next problem that arises where can you find somebody to do that for you? Well I found a place here nearby. I hope they wil be capable to help me. The spokes are thicker and I think are size 13. Normal pushbikes have spokes size 14 which are thinner. Pushbike rimms have holes that fit spokenipples 14. The spokenipples for a spoke 13 are to wide and wont fit a standard pushbike rim.
Solution.......
There are Spokenipples for a rim with spokenipple holes 14 but have the wider threading for spokes 13. Problem is the spokenipples are very thin walled and get damaged easely.
I think I am going for the second solution. Just fit the thinner size 14 spokes .
When I look at the origional spokes of the pie the threading is that of a spoke 14 and the thicknes of the spokes are spoke 13. This means that the spokes are in effect spoke 14 since they will snap of at the thinnest part which is the thread anyway.
So why not choose normal spoke 14 size spokes anyway. I amthinking of RVS black spokes.
Keep you guys updated.
Jeroen Compagne
www.beeldhout.nl
P.s.
Thanks for the replies Hardcore and Bikemad.
Good to hear the cycle analyst should work without a problem. Will dig in configuring that when I get to that stage.
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29 dec 2009
Took the pie to the bikeshop to get it respoked. Will be finished around the 4th Jan 2010 (next year) :P
Also started on some soldering. The shunt resistor from the cycle analyst is a stand alone version and needs to be positioned between the battery and the controller. I liked the idear of having the cycle anayst pluggable so I can choose to ride without or even use 1 cycle analyst on more then 1 bike. So I soldered some high Amp connectors to the Shunt resistor so I can either ride with or without the cycle analyst.
To be able to do this I bought 4 connectors. Bat wire-Connector-Connector-Shunt resistor-connector-connector-power wire going to the controller.
So now I can loose the shunt and connect bat and controller without it by simply plugging in.
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Wow, those connectors are bombin'! Power Poles would have done well, but I admit to being a fan of over-kill.
Wondering what the RShunt threshold for an MP might be..
..need that value for proper CA calibration..
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:D
7th Jan 2010
Lol yes they are a bit overkill but the only thing I was able to get in the sence of quick connectors that are safe in the sence that the polarity can only be plugged in 1 way. I know myself all to well and would make a mistake 1 day otherwise....... (murpy's law) and me make a wonderfull combination..... ;)
Also according to my calculations the pie will pull out 27.5 amps..... Which is a load to think about. I even find the orrigional wires in the hub a bit on the thin side for this power. The connectors are 50 Amps...
I also ordered a blackbox (plastic watertight electrical circuit box) that I am going to fit on my frame instead of the bottle holder.
(http://media.digikey.com/photos/Keystone%20Elect%20Photos/706.jpg)
I am going to try an let all the ends meet in here. So all the connectors and wiring wil somehow end up in there. The rest of the wiring I am going to shrinkwrap in black tube and tywrap to the bike to make a clean install.
Meenwhile I am still waiting for my battery. Also I looked at the battery caryer rack and it is completely bent in al directions.
Look at this photo.
I dared and bent it back but it felt like some of the welds snapped of a bit. Dont dare and touch it any more because I am too scared it will break. Maube GM can send me a new one. I would love to test out the new rack. So if Yao Yuan reads this.... I am a willing tester for your new battery rack...... :D
And another picture of the proces so far.
Nearly all the wireing is in place from the steering wheel to the connector box I am planning to build.
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You tied your bike to a seat :D funny ;D
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12 Jan 2010
Where is my Battery?.......????...???...???
Waiting for some lithium..... Will call Dennis soon to see if he knows more, Starting to get inpatiënt..
Regards,
Jeroen Compagne
www.beeldhout.nl
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14 jan 2010
Received the bat.
Checked it and it had 50,9 volts showing on the cycle analyst.
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Did the new wheel lacing compensate for the of centered pie? or did you only fit a new rim?
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It is still at the bike repair shop getting laced. So I have no update on that yet.
Should be ready in 2 weeks. Takes them a long timeto get the rim I wanted.
Will show the new alignment here in the forum.
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This off center is very strange.... Check this, from the GM web site:
Any one knows why, or if this is correct? Do we correct this with washers and nuts?
Yes it is so you can have all the gears and a disc brake so Yuan says.
You have an alloy frame. Make sure the bike shop knows not to spread the frame for the hub to be centred.
Before you pedal that 6 speed cluster tight Id change to a five speed or three and centre the hub.
The method of off true wheel has been reported to not fully centre the rim over the hub and IMO is inherently weaker than a properly chewed rim, because the angle of spoke to spoke flange is different on both sides both sides. One has to question how much spoke thread will be remaining on the far side as well.
Like when you start a building card house the two first cards will lean upon each other in an A frame. If they are not straight one side will give out. I envisage over time this imbalance will twist the rim. Even an off centre wheel will be much stronger than this and the off centre wheel is as strong as any normal hub and rim, as the balance is always achieved by the riders weight distribution, so too, equal tension is distributed on both left and right spokes..
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I will mount the wheel myself,
Not letting any other work done on the bike then the respoking (is something I have never done before and looks to me like a lot of precision work) And I must say I am not looking foreward to doing that myself.
But I don't think a five gear unit would help center the wheel. The axle is what it is and I cant realy take out washers on one side and put extra,s on the other either.Or is there a way to shift the axle inside the hub?
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I agree with Jazzjerry,
I have not seen my wheel yet, but the same designs with a sprocket having a smaller number of gears, which sets the position is the longitudinal axis Geometry! "shoulders" of the shaft will still be in the same relative position! If this really is a chronic problem, GM will have to redesign the outer ring of the engine, keeping the engine in position, but shifting the fulcrum of the spokes.
Fulcrum... Is a correct use of the word?
Bruno
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I agree with Jazzjerry,
I have not seen my wheel yet, but the same designs with a sprocket having a smaller number of gears, which sets the position is the longitudinal axis Geometry! "shoulders" of the shaft will still be in the same relative position! If this really is a chronic problem, GM will have to redesign the outer ring of the engine, keeping the engine in position, but shifting the fulcrum of the spokes.
Fulcrum... Is a correct use of the word?
Bruno
I can only assume that the MP uses a spacer sleeve tube like my HBS36 that inserts within the sprocket as a support between the axle shoulder and the dropout . A smaller cassette and 20 seconds on the grinder with the spacer sleeve should give you enough space on the sprocket side and then make up for it on the left side with washers to move the centre into centre.
Unless it's the sprocket side that's too close, Or the axle shoulder extend out to meet the dropout.
Edit:
Ohh I see.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_52342.jpg)
The axel shoulder extends out of the cassette unlike the HBS sersies.
My bad.
If you really needed centre I would spread the frame or for an alloy frame, I would cutter grind the axle using the axle square (flat parts) as a guide then come down vertically with the grinder and remove pieces, then go for a smaller sprocket and washers. Use a water flow to manage the heat.
When I go for a Pie soon (i hope) I'll make sure I use a frame that can tolerate a dropout spreading.
-
I will wait and see what it looks like when it is respoked propperly.
Maybe this will be sufficiënt for centering the rim again.
16 Jan 2010
Here is some more photo's of my project.
Today I fitted the battery rack. (Yes the one that was bend) Just hope it wont snap of completely one day.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Metalpieces.jpg)
2 pieces of mettal that came with the rack where made to size.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Batterycarryer.jpg)
Fitted the rack and the 2 metal things that came with it. Drilled some holes for the nuts. There where metric M5 threads already in my frame that I used.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/overview.jpg)
Next I fitted the back tire just to see how the bike looks.....
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/overview2.jpg)
From the back.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Spatbord.jpg)
Last thing I did today was chop up the plastic mudgard to make it fit under the battery.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Mudguardtywrap.jpg)
Drilled some holes in the batterrack and mudgard, Fixxed it with some tywraps.
-
Today I got some more stuff in I ordered from the web.
Some wire for the lights, (was not shipped with the pie and lights I ordered)
And an electronics enclosure.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63052.jpg)
This is the electronics box in which I have planned all the ends to meet. Here you can see the shunt resistor form the cycle analyst plugged in the main power cables.
The rest of the wiring will follow.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63062.jpg)
This is where I will mount the box.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_62932.jpg)
Soldering my backlight. Put a knot in the cable to prevent it from being pulled out the lamp.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_62952.jpg)
Soldered
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63082.jpg)
Finished
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_62962.jpg)
Soldered the front light.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63072.jpg)
Finished
-
JJ,
Double check your light wiring, as you appear to have the red wire as ground on the front light, and Live on the rear.
This will cause a short circuit through the frame of the bike when turned on, if both red wires are connect to Live. (Battery +)
Alan
-
Well I have thought this through a number of times........ If you look carefully both bikes have a wire connected and grounded with their bolts to the frame. This is interesting. I thought that this would be - ?
So this means that the center pole of both lamps would be -
So I wired it up accordingly.
Please help me on this one.
Regards Jeroen
-
If you look at this lighting diagram it shows the correct polarity of the lights:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1635.0;attach=1485;image)
It's difficult to see from your photo where the red lead is connected on the front light.
After turning up my brightness on the monitor and having another close look, it looks like the red lead is actually soldered to the spade terminal, which is fine, if it were connected to the bracket fixing it would be wrong.
Sorry if I gave you a heart attack, but I was concerned about what I was seeing.
Looks like it's my mistake not yours. :D
Alan
-
Thanks Allan,
Dont worry, I was gonna throw in the fuse as well, So hopefully only that would have melted. Better to be safe then sorry and I am glad you replied to my post anyway. Now I know you had a good look into it as well and agree. 2 know more then 1.... ;)
I just completely took appart my 120$ worth cycle analyst. I am trying to find out how to add a switch that will overide the throttle signal to make the bike streetlegal in Holland. So when I see cops.......... QUICKLY NOW JERRY FLIP THE SWITCH........ SAVE YOURSELF.... And the pie will only go 25 kph when they test it.
Anybody else done this before in this forum?
Regards,
JJ
-
i use cruise to go 0.00001km/h when cops are pulling me over, but I don't have pas. they don't know what this bike is capable of or what you're doing withit as only a few people have something powerfull like this. also they can't test the power without special equipment, the NE doesn't have them asfar as I know
-
It should be easy to hack a throttle with resistor/potentiometer, so that the full throttle would only do half the speed or so... And when you need full speed, just bypass it... It should be simple, but I havent tried it....
-
Jerry,
This should do the job nicely:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Restrictor2.JPG)
I'm sure you'll find room for a 5K Sub-Miniature Fully Enclosed Carbon Preset Potentiometer like this in your connection box:
(http://www.eleinmec.com/photos/014_04.jpg) (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=6499)
And once you have adjusted it to give the required maximum speed, it can be taped up or enclosed within heat shrink tube etc.
I still haven't got around to testing it myself, but Gianfranco has tested it and apparently it does work as expected.
Thank you Alan, I installed the Sub-Miniature Fully Enclosed Carbon Preset Potentiometer and now it works perfectly :)
Alan
-
I know the cycle analyst also has this function.......
So I am going to try and use the analyst. The other option however with the Preset Potentiometer looks realy good and simple though. If I hadn'bought the cycle analyst I would have gone for that option deffinetly. I think the problem with this solution however is that you will loose torque because you cant use the full voltage available from the throttle when you flipp the switch. With the cycle analyst though the voltage is only limmited when you go past a specific speed....... Then the variable voltage limmiter kicks in and guides you to the needed throttle voltage to make you go lets say 25kph.....
So this way you start of with full throttle in the beginning and only end up with lower voltage when you go past the speed that you have entered in the cycle analyst as the max speed you want to go.
I want this function to work with a micro switch. So I want to beable to either send the throttle voltage directly to the controller / or flip the switch and send the throttle voltage through the cycle analyst with a preset limmiting speed.
So just the switch will be needed to go either maxed out or limmited through the cycle analyst.
But I will try and show you what I have got sofar........
This is what I can read in the cycle analyst guide about limmiting functions that can be used.
7. Using the Limiting Features
There are many situations when it is desirable to limit the amount of
power that the controller is able to draw from the battery pack. For
instance, you might want a current limit in order to:
A) Protect the cells in a battery pack from delivering more than their
rated amperage
B) Extend the range of your vehicle by reducing current draw during
acceleration and hill climbing
C) Safely cycle at low current a NiMH or NiCad pack that has been
sitting unused for a long period
D) Keep the motor's power within a legally stipulated power limit
A speed limit can help make any electric bicycle abide by the legal
speed caps that exist in most jurisdictions while not affecting
performance below that speed. It can also be useful for extending the
range or for taming a setup that is otherwise too fast for comfort,
without sacrificing hill climbing torque.
The voltage limit is used primarily to prevent the battery pack from
being over discharged which can be damaging to the cells. Typically,
you would set it between 29 to 31V for a 36V pack, and between 39 to41V for a 48V pack.
7.1 How the feedback works
To understand how the limiting features work, just imagine how you
would operate the throttle manually. If you are going over a desired
speed limit, you would back off the throttle. If the vehicle then reached
a hill and started to slow down from your target speed, you would
further engage the throttle, thus continuously adjusting the throttle
position to keep at your desired velocity.The Cycle Analyst behaves similarly. When it senses that any one of
the limiting quantities has been exceeded, then the throttle over-ride
signal starts to decrease from its default resting value (usually
between 4 to 5V, determined by ITermMax). A simple circuit is requiredso that the controller only sees the lower value of the throttle signal or
the Cycle Analyst signal. This is generally achieved with a diode as
follows:
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/fig17.jpg)
There are various setup options which control the speed at which the
Cycle Analyst responds to these signals. If the settings are too fast,
then the control can be twitchy or oscillate around the desired value,
while gain settings that are too low will cause a long lag time before the
limiting kicks in.7.2 PI Controller
Each of the three limiting features is implemented as a digital
Proportional/Integral (PI) controller. The actual output for speed
regulation is computed as follows:
ITerm = Previous ITerm + IntSGain*(Set Speed - Actual Speed)
Clamp: ITermMin < ITerm < ITermMax
Override = ITerm + PSGain*(Set Speed - Actual Speed)
Similar values are calculated with the current limit, and low voltage
limit, and the smallest of the three over-ride terms is output as a
voltage. If this output is less than the user’s throttle voltage, then it isthe Cycle Analyst which is ultimately controlling the vehicle.
7.3 Tuning the feedback
The ability of the Cycle Analyst to limit the speed, current, or low
voltage in a fast yet smooth manner depends on setting the
appropriate Gain terms for the feedback loop. The default values work
well for ebike setups in the 300-600 watt power range. For more
powerful systems, they will usually lead to the vehicle oscillating
around the programmed set point rather than holding steady. In this
case, it is necessary to tone down the appropriate feedback gains in
the advanced setup menu.
-
So these are the insides of a cycle analyst.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5296-1.jpg)
Here is the guts from the front perspective...... ;D
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5297.jpg)
Here is the guts from the back perspective. And yes I clipped a couple of 120$ wires to get it out......... :o
I felt like having bought a porche and the thinking ( hey I need a towhook and a bullbar on my car) So sh!t I bought a porche but hell I,ll weld it on anyway.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5300-1.jpg)
The housing.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5301-1.jpg)
This is the type of switch I am planning to use.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5298.jpg)
Here you can see additional wiring optios and functions that are not used yet..
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5299.jpg)
Here is some more
-
how do I install a throttle potentionel meter restrictor or wathever it's called.
i got pulled over twices and i'm starting to think they are trying to impound it. we don't want that, right?
-
I Think the drawing Bikemad put up is a good enough solution. The cycle analyst is better though. (But expensive) I am not sure yet How exactly I am going to do this but I will also put this in the dutch forum. www.naafmotor.nl (http://www.naafmotor.nl) (in Dutch)
Maybe you can look into the option Bikemad gave and also post this in the dutch forum for dutch readers to find solutions online as well..
You could also buy a cycle analyst of cource.
So The way I am going to use the cycle analyst to is like explained below.
Got this from the cycle analyst home page.
Throttle Over-Ride Details
In order to take advantage of the speed limit, current limit, and low voltage cutout, the Cycle Analyst needs to be wired in such a way that the Throttle Over-Ride output is able to take charge of the motor controller when one of the limits is surpassed. This is already accomplished in our CA-DP and DPS models when connected to any motor controllers which have the 6-pin Cycle Analyst connector, so no additional wiring is required beyond plugging the two devices together. If you are connecting it to a 3rd party controller then it will be useful to understand the following details.
The over-ride output is an analog voltage that can range from 5V down to 0V. When it detects that a limit is exceeded, the voltage begins to ramp down from its resting point (set by ItermMax), until power to the motor is reduced and the limit (speed, current, or voltage) is no longer exceeded.
The actual output is derived from an op-amp on the circuit board, and it is capable of both sinking and sourcing current. In the original Cycle Analyst boards (identified by a lack of label on the PCB) this output was wired directly from the op-amp, so it was quite stiff, but also made the board vulnerable to damage if the Throttle Over-Ride was accidentally wired incorrectly to a voltage source. In PCB revision 7 (labelled DB2 Rev7b), the output line was modified to include a 1k resistor (R6) to protect the silicone. This however means that the Over-Ride line can only source or sink small currents, and if more than a mA needs to be drawn from the output, then resistor R6 should either be reduced in value to a couple hundred ohms, or possibly shorted out entirely.
In most setups, the user typically has a throttle signal that varies from close to 0 or 1V when it is off, up to 4-5 V when the throttle is fully engaged. For proper operation of the Cycle Analyst limitting features, the signal for the motor controller should be the lower of these two voltages. An easy way to achieve this is with a diode and current limiting resistor on the throttle line as shown in the following schematic:
(http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain/Throttle_Override.png)
In cases where the controller circuitboard is readily accessible, then you will often find that there is a series resistor already on the PCB and the throttle over-ride should ideally tap in just after this point, and then an additional resistor is not required.
With the Stand Alone and High Current versions, you will need to drill a hole through the enclosure and feed a wire to the Th pad on the CA circuit in order to access the over-ride signal.
The response time and stability of the limiting features can be adjusted by changing the gain values in the advanced setup menu. Each one is implemented as a Proportional / Integral (PI) controller. Gain settings that are too high will lead to oscillations about the set point, while gain settings that are too low may cause large overshoots and time lags before the values have stabilized.
-
The big problem with either method of limiting the throttle is in my opinion that it has no effect when using the pedelec. Maybe the "speed limiter" connection as described in "Re: Variable Regenerative braking" (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1220.msg6292#msg6292) could somehow be used for that?
Also, the Cycle-Analyst has the advantage that it can accurately limit on both the speed and the power drawn, then again it is at least 100 times as expensive.
-
So Please think along with me......
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Pie-limmiting-1.jpg)
Ow NO... Just realised I need a resistor in between there as well...
But still I cant get a grip on how this will work........
What is happening here with just 1 wire diverted from the main wire feeding the controller going into the cycle analyst....
I cant bend my mind around this one......
And where do I posoition the switch to still have both options available. Throtle through cycle analyst and throttle straight up to the controller.... ?? If I would place a switch just before the diode would that do the trick?
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Wiring-limmit2.jpg)
-
Place the switch in series with the diode, either side should be fine.
-
So that resistor 3-5 K does not effect the normal function of the throttle?
-
Well I just ordered a Diode.......
(http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/images/diodes.gif)
Since the guide does not say which Diode to get I asume a standard and mostly used diode should be fine.
So I ordered one 1N4148 for 10cents here http://www.eijlander.nl/article.php?group=2204&id=16078 (http://www.eijlander.nl/article.php?group=2204&id=16078)
Also ordered a 8 pin waterproof chasis connector and cable connector. And a piece of 8poled wire to Make the Cycle analyst completely detatchable.
The last thing I ordered is a 3.9k resistor.
So that shoeuld be it I gues.
-
I Think the drawing Bikemad put up is a good enough solution. The cycle analyst is better though. (But expensive) I am not sure yet How exactly I am going to do this but I will also put this in the dutch forum. www.naafmotor.nl (http://www.naafmotor.nl) (in Dutch)
Maybe you can look into the option Bikemad gave and also post this in the dutch forum for dutch readers to find solutions online as well..
Jerry,
There's no reason why you can't use both if you want to.
Take a look at this diagram, which should help you to visualise things more easily:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/CAmoddedrestrictor.JPG)
You could adjust the simple restrictor until the bike is just below the maximum legal speed and have your C/A set to limit the current to extend your battery range.
You could switch on the C/A for economy etc, and use the switch on the restrictor for a quick legal fix!(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/yonofui.GIF)
With both switched off you'll instantly have full power and maximum speed!(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/6_small.GIF)
Alan
-
Thats probably an even better Idear.
Might go for that one........ Hmm have to order another switch and and a 5k variable resistor then.
Would I need a
-MINI MON0 5K AXIAL
-MINI MON0 5K
-SUPERMINI LIN MN 5K
-MINI MON0 5K
-MINI MON0 5K AX + SWT
-
I gues I will order this one a CM series 5k with 20 turns on it to have a bigger tuning resolution.
(http://www.eijlander.nl/imagescript.php?img=product/k005cm.jpg&size=190)
-
I think I understand you now Bikemad.
I altered the visualisation a bit more.
I am thinking of using the black wire of the cycle analyst (which is the ground wire used by the cycle analyst) to hook up to the Preset Potentiometer. This way I only have to bring the throttle signal wire to the cycle analyst and not also the ground wire from the throttle. I think I got enough room inside the cycle analyst enclosure to be able to build in the potentiometer and the 2 switches.
Do you think I would need another diode between the ground from the cycle analyst and the Preset potentiometer?
What do you think?
-
I now see I made a mistake in the prior drawing.......
It was kinda late last night 3AM ........ Carpe noctum.....
Kind of start making mistakes then and have trouble concentrating.
It should be like this new drawing.
-
When I use the ground from the cycle analyst, it would look like this.
-
Jerry,
The last two drawings appear to be wired the same, but unfortunately none of your three drawings will work correctly.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_sad_230608.GIF)
The preset has three contacts, all of which need to be used for it to work correctly:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Preset-1.GIF)(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/potentiometer1-2.GIF)
Pin A connects to ground, via a switch if used (Black wire on the throttle connection)
Pin B connected to the throttle signal wire (White wire coming from the twistgrip or thumb throttle)
Pin W connects to the throttle signal connection on the controller (White wire on the black 3pin connector on the Magic Pie wiring harness)
This potentiometer (variable resistor) is being used as a simple voltage reducer.
With the dial turned fully towards Pin A 0% of the signal voltage will be sent to the controller.
With the dial turned fully towards Pin B 100% of the signal voltage will be sent to the controller.
Here's a quick example:
If the throttle device is held the fast position (100%) signal voltage is sent out from it.
If the dial is pre-set in the middle position, only 50% of the throttle signal voltage will be forwarded to the controller.
Therefore half throttle is the maximum that would be available to use.
When the switch (if fitted) is turned off, the pre-set restrictor will no longer have any effect on the throttle, which will continue to operate just as normal.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_thumb_up_230608.GIF)
Hopefully this should make sense to you now, so long as I haven't confused you too much.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_wink_230608.GIF)
Alan
-
In my opinion you guys are over-engineering this. I would just use one or the other, and since you already own a cycle-analyst, I'd go with that. It will give you full throttle up until you reach either the maximum set speed or current, clearly the superior solution.
-
In my opinion you guys are over-engineering this. I would just use one or the other, and since you already own a cycle-analyst, I'd go with that. It will give you full throttle up until you reach either the maximum set speed or current, clearly the superior solution.
The whole idea of incorporating a simple restrictor was for a "quick select" legal speed option.
When you get stopped, it's no good saying, "Hang on officer, I can't remember how to set my Cycle Analyst back to the legal speed setting."(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_think_230608.GIF)
It's got to be much easier to simply flick a switch!
Alan
-
Yes you are wright. But there are more options open to us and why not use them.
No its not over engineering. If I use the cycle analyst for speedlimmiting, I loose the option of currentlimmiting through the cycle analyst. I had not thought about this untill Bikemad pointed this out to me.
So the soldering has to be done anyway.... The electronics are very cheap and I will do this whole building proces only once. When I start riding the bike I wont take it apart to alter things. Why not take some time and think it through a bit better so you use the capability's that you have.
The way Bikemad and I are thinking now will give me more options to start of with with just a minor alteration in the electronics setup.
-
yes it would
-
Right, I was thinking along the lines of only limiting both at the same time occasionally for legal requirements. My bad, carry on! ;)
-
So here whe go again Bikemad,
LOL :D
So I first or maybe midway the proces, want you to know that I studied forrestry and nature management. I now work as an Artist making wood sculptures....... Check out www.beeldhout.nl (http://www.beeldhout.nl) (in dutch) So my electronics knowledge is basic primary school info. I am not saying I am dumb, but a lot of things here are new for me and take a lot of reading and learning while going foreward.
I like doing it though..... A lot of other tihing I always questioned myself about in the sence of electronics are now getting visualised and clearer.
I am an Artist so visualising is the most important thing for me. I als know how much thinking and drawing/sculpting is recuired to help others understand your point.
So I would realy like to thank you for doing this for me.
I could say your Art is very much apreciated
This is a new drawing I made up from your comments.
Would like to hear your opinion ..... And thanks for letting me figure it out myself through your guidance. It would be so easy to draw what I need for you but that would teatch me nothing......
Best regards, Jeroen Compagne
-
Looks like that should do the trick.
-
Looks like that should do the trick.
You took the words out of my mouth CeZar!
Jerry, if you wanted to you could switch between both devices with a single sub miniature Double Pole Double Throw three way latching toggle switch (On-Off-On type) like this:
(http://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/images/P1010107.gif)
Up = Cycle Analyst Controlled (Speed/current limited)
Mid Position = Unrestricted mode (Off road use)
Down = Basic Throttle Restricted mode (Set for legal highway use)
You might also want to consider a splash proof cover to keep the rain out:
(http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/300/jr79l.jpg)
Now you've got even more to think about.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_wink_230608.GIF)
Alan
-
I think that it should be "stealth", at least the cop speed limiter :D
8)
-
So No xtra diode needed when I use ground from the cycle analyst?
Thanks guys and especially Alan for the help. I will keep you guys posted with the outcome of mt electronical experiments.
Jerry.
-
Jerry,
The single diode should be fine, as the simple restrictor does not require one.
I'm assuming it's required to protect the cycle analyst and/or to ensure that voltage from the cycle analyst can't accidentally activate the motor.
Alan
-
So No xtra diode needed when I use ground from the cycle analyst?
Although it shouldn't matter, I think it would be better to use the ground from the throttle itself.
-
Jerry,
CeZar has a valid point, it shouldn't matter so long as the Cycle Analyst is correctly grounded.
But, if the ground wire from the Cycle Analyst were to break due to fatigue or being trapped etc. the Cycle Analyst would then try to ground back through the restrictor wire instead (if it were switched on), sending a high voltage back through the throttle signal wire, which would cause serious problems.
Normally, the throttle signal wire can only send a maximum of 5volts to the controller, so it might not be very happy to receive the full battery voltage!
Perhaps it would be safer to use the throttle ground for the restrictor, if not, a diode (with a reverse voltage capability higher than the battery voltage) could be fitted in-line with the restrictor just to play safe.
Alan
-
Ok, Now another pedelic sensor MOD.
I took the magnetdisk
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63132.jpg)
I coloured 1 side (The sensor side red). Just in case polarity matters since there are arrows on the disc that show 1 direction of rotation.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63122.jpg)
Took the magnets out and tried to fit them in my hex bolt holes on my gears.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63142.jpg)
Perfect Fit
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6315.jpg)
Now you can see the alignment with the sensor.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6316.jpg)
Hope this works with 4 magnets instead of 5. But I gues that should not be a problem.
-
27 Jan 2010
Dropped a wrench down the bike and discovered the magnets from the previous post have to be fixed with some superglue for sure. Already had that in mind but thought they would not come loose. I had 2 of them attached to my wrench.
For the rest I mounted the circuit box that I showed you guys before.
With the help of a piece of Aluminum I had lying around. I elevated it higher but connected it to the boltholes that where already there made for the Bidon Flask rack.
This is what it looks lke.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63202.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63212.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_63232.jpg)
Dont mind the mess.......
I am such a lucky guy you know......
My Girlfriend accually does not mind me using the livingroom as a workshop......
I asked her If she would mind and she said.
I like it that you are at home doing this. Otherwise you will be in your attelier even more and I want you around as much as possible.
I love my GF....... never thought I would find one that would like me for who I am....
I am a lucky man. (http://www.helpmij.nl/forum/image.php?u=37973&dateline=1091450569)
:)
-
Fri 29 jan 2010
:-\ Big Bummer today,
The bikeshop got the rims in. He ordered spokes and 2 rims. The place he ordered them from thought thought with these short spoke,,,,, huh they must want a 20 inch rim instead of a 700c.
So after already waiting way too long, I now have got spokes in the wright size but a rimm measuring 20" eventhough I need a 700c 622mm one.
The Bikeshop is now going to find out how to quickly resolve this problem. But my gues is another couple of weeks.
I meanwhile started soldering everything up. I measured the cable lenghts coming from the hub so I can now solder everything in the correct wire lenght.
Will post some pic's soon.
JJ
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Mon 1st Jan 2010
I clipped all the wire's. Thought that would be smart.... 8)
So now all the wire's are the correct lenght, and I have been able to get all the electronics where I want it. (out of the way).
It was a lot of work though also because I made some xtra options available by adding the cycle analyst and also by connecting the cycle analyst to function as throttle override.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/wiring2.jpg)
The start.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/wiring1.jpg)
Lots of wires.... ???
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Wiring3.jpg)
All wired up.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/wiringnearlyfinished.jpg)
Finished this part. Looks nice and tidy.
Now I just have to hook up the cycle analyst with some xtra electronic components. Still waiting for the components to arrive.
Then resolder the cycle analyst wires that I clipped. And the wireing is finished.
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13 feb 2010
Last update .... The wheel will be respoked and ready on thursday 18th Feb 2010
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Jerry that is one clean build there. In a way it seems like having such issues with your wheel has given you more time to perfect the installation process whereas I have wires zip tied up in a bunch and still using the cheap pin connectors and have a short in my controller cord as supplied from the factory etc. but am not inspired to do anything about them as I am spending my time riding! I did switch to an anderson connector for the power supply before firing it up though, they are a must do addition to any build. I think I finally found a good replacement for the cheezy pin connectors at the throttle/controller interface as seen here: http://www.suresealconnections.com/index.html and just have to find some now. I use my MP on a pusher trailer and need a good connector that is sealed and quick so that I can get rid of the trailer and have my bike back when I want to.
Hope your wheel does in fact come to you on Thursday.
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Thank You Mabby,
I realy hope my wheel turns up on Thursday.And Yes you are absolutely wright in the sence that I had all the time figuring everything out just perfectly the way I wanted it before riding addiction kicks in....
Soldering it all up in the wright lenght is well worth it though, even if everything ends up at your doorstepp clean and ready to go.
So to everybody new and ready to start E-propulsion from GM do it wright and don't get caught into the quick fix that is promissed. GM is not there yet even though they are close. It takes some DIY to get it to work the way you want it, which made it even more fun for me since now I feel I did some of it myself instead of buying a ready to go kit and consume.....
Greetz JJ
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Is it just me? or is there not a motor I can find on that bike?
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Is it just me? or is there not a motor I can find on that bike?
That's because it's equipped with the latest GM "dual nano motors", so small they cannot be detected with the naked eye!
Yao, you really must keep up to date with your company's products!(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/emot71.GIF)
Alan
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Is it just me? or is there not a motor I can find on that bike?
The motor is waiting for a new rim. And to be correcly centered :D
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LOL :D
Hello Yao,
My Magic pie is getting respoked since the ofset was to much to fit my frame....
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Got my motor and rim in today...
Hooked it up (rest of the system was ready to go...... WHHHWHWWOOOOOOOOOOO000000000000oooooooooo.................
Cool...!!!!
Did not charge the bat since it came in... Drove at night 1..AM till the throttle bat indicator turned orange and last night had it charged. Today went playing. I live on a hill and I think it took me a couple of hours to get it empty again. Eventually the red led appeared so it shows up in time to get home. Not long after though full stop.......
Took a snowy mud trail as well... Now its all cleaned and warm in my shed getting a new charge.....
Foto,s and more will follow.
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Oh all right, must have been too much booze during the new year season. All I can see here are beautiful chinese girls and beer. Nothing else! Wait... am I having a hangover right now? why am I even posting this?
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Booze and girls.....
Whish I was there.....
Show off my new ebike and pick up girls......... LOL :D
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Booze and girls.....
Whish I was there.....
Show off my new ebike and pick up girls......... LOL :D
Your girlfriend may not like that much and one that will allow you to work on your bike in the living room like yours is a keeper, so don't mess that up ;D
My new girlfriend, who in fact is a newer addition to my life than my MP, has her own shop and I have my Bumvee in there right now doing a rebuild on it. Her work is shown here: http://steelroseart.artspan.com/ I told her I was only going out with her for her shop space last night and she still cooked me stir fry ;D
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Hello Mabman,
Had a look at your GF's website.
She is an artist.... nice work. One of my best mates and neighbour is a mettal sculptor as wel. His name is Arild Veld..
http://www.galeries.nl/mnkunstenaar.asp?artistnr=13499&vane=1&em=&meer=&sessionti=892697359 (http://www.galeries.nl/mnkunstenaar.asp?artistnr=13499&vane=1&em=&meer=&sessionti=892697359)
http://www.kropot.nl/openkw/index.htm (http://www.kropot.nl/openkw/index.htm) Some photo,s of our artist colonie.
And let me tell you, one that you have tried to warn and push away, and still cooks stirr fry is a keeper......
Tried to push my love ages ago, scared that she would not be happy with me and my lifestyle....... Still together and have a beutifull son. And in sence of my lifestyle ..... wel she sometimes likes it, sometimes hates it and sometimes learns from it. But she is not trying to change me into something I am not.....
She is a keeper as well.. LOL
The Who42,
You are wright about the off center wheel. The rest of the problems I did not have. My sprocket fitted perfectly without washers. My Disc fitted the motor without washers too. The orrigional brake units I had (shimano) did not fit. But the cheap disc breaks from GM I also bought could be adjuste so that the brakes fitted perfectly on my frame.
The off centre wheel however is my biggest problem so far.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But now my personal first impression review about the PIE.
I think it is not as perfect as some of the specs I found on this forum show. Not that I think is crap, but it needs some more attention. My top speed for exxample is 35kph... Instead of the topspeed stated here in the forum of 45kph. I have not figured out yet what the cause is. Might be my battery. Stil in the proces of hooking up my cycle analyst. As soon as I get some data from that I will try to find out if my GM 48v 12ah battery is a monday morning battery or something. I noticed that even after charging the throttle leds go orange after 10 minutes when asking full throttle.
Next the PAS.
I can't seem to get it to work propperly yet. Thought it worked last night, but today I realy wanted to test the pedelic function and it did not work. I do hear a beep when I press the Cruise controll button twice but that is about all the action I get from the Pie. Peddeling foreward or backward, no active propulsion.
Last and Worst thing I found is the off center rim and bad spoke job. Why not have the rimm in the middle? And why do I have to readjust my spokes every ride....
Because of the big size of the motor (which I think is cool and nice) the spokes are putunder an angle that is not normal for a standard rim. This results in bent spokes and spokethreads and difficulties to even respoke the motor.
I think the only sollution here is to get a rim that has custom angled spokeholes to keep the spokes and spokenipples in a straight line towards the hub.
For the rest I thinke the washers that come with the motor should be in a selection of different diameters (so you can align the wheel better) and stainless.
Another nasty wobbly thing is the battery that does not sit tight enough on the rear rack. Ever stone peddle or bump in the road results in noise from the battery
Last the prommised anti theft setting........
Well what can I say... It does not work...
For the rest I think it is a beutifull looking well finished motor, with a lot of potention when the first designer flaws will be perfected. When you are handy enough to do some things yourself and don't expect wonders the Magic Pie is a good option, and a reasonable cheap option to convert your bike into a modern self propelled electric vehicle. The contolls all feel a little cheap and plastic but do their job as stated.
The regen function of the controller is a big plus+ in sence of thinking ahead and giving the consumer and the environment a bonus. I think this Regen function makes the Pie kit a very complete package that will guide consumers towards the more advanced choise they can make in the world of DIY kits.
The real speed freaks and overclockers will go for other motors, controllers and battery,s but for a top of the line kit that does a lot of what is expected for a high end consumer.
THIS KIT IS GOOD. (and if they take out the design flaws stated above)the GM Magic Pie kit will be one of the best.
Best regards,
A happy consumer that tried the py and likes it....... Hopefully this revieuw will give GM a help in the wright direction, because they are not there yet but nearly....
JJ
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I agree you with everything! I have some comments :D
I think the only sollution here is to get a rim that has custom angled spokeholes to keep the spokes and spokenipples in a straight line towards the hub.
For this series, yes, good and cheap solution, but they need to do the Pi 2.0, with a wider spoke section.
For the rest I thinke the washers that come with the motor should be in a selection of different diameters (so you can align the wheel better) and stainless.
FOR SURE, EVERYTHING. The shaft could also be made of stainless, mine is beginning to rust very superficially, but is controllable with good care.
Another nasty wobbly thing is the battery that does not sit tight enough on the rear rack. Ever stone peddle or bump in the road results in noise from the battery
To me the Velcro solved it for good, could be standard with the kit, or use some Teflon spacer.
About the speed, I'm starting to have some problems, I'll do more tests next week with the watt meter, but my real max now is something close to 40km/h that meets some calculation I did and needed to be verified :D
I did some not controlled tests (my comute, with some peddaling and small hills):
Dist. 10910 meters
Ah 4,581
Wh 209,3
Ah/km 0,42
Wh/km 19,2
Av. max power inpt 1356,8W
Av. max amp. inp. 30,17A
Speed maximum, 45km/h but sure was downhill. The good speed is between 30 km/h and 35km/h, with maximum of 41 km/h. Pedaling with everything I got of renewable fat energy in plain terrain I can reach 48km/h (with the motor of course, with out in I could die in 25km/h :D).
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Last and Worst thing I found is the off center rim and bad spoke job. Why not have the rimm in the middle? And why do I have to readjust my spokes every ride....
Because of the big size of the motor (which I think is cool and nice) the spokes are put under an angle that is not normal for a standard rim. This results in bent spokes and spokethreads and difficulties to even respoke the motor.
I think the only sollution here is to get a rim that has custom angled spokeholes to keep the spokes and spoke nipples in a straight line towards the hub.
Jerry,
I fully agree with the spoke angle problem, which cannnot help to maintain an even tension on the spokes.
Due to the large angle between the spoke and the rim (See attachments below for more details), the nipples cannot seat correctly and as a result of this, the tensile force of each spoke is concentrated on one very small point of contact, instead of being spread evenly around the head of the nipple.
As the nipple tries to pull itself down to seat onto the rim, this single contact point will act as a pivot for the nipple, causing it to bend the spoke whilst trying to achieve the impossible (a fully supported and correctly seated position in the rim).
Unfortunately, the nipple will never be correctly seated in the rim, so it has no option but to spend the rest of its life under unnecessary strain waiting for something to eventually fail.
I suspect the loosening of the spokes is probably due to this:
A common reason for spokes to fail on hub motors isn't because the motor puts extra strain on the spokes, or because the spokes aren't a thick enough gauge, it's because of fatigue failure from spokes that aren't held snug against the flange. If the spoke bend radius is too large or too far from the head, then it can flex up and down at the bend with each wheel rotation, eventually causing it to crack and fail.
This problem has been legendary with overseas built hub motors, and we had some Crystalyte shipments where about half the customers would experience spoke breakage on a recurring basis. Ideally the distance between the head and the bend in your spoke will match the thickness of the hub flange, and you won't have problems. But if not, there are two ways to address the situation. One is to insert a washer under the spoke head. The second way is to lace the wheel in an over/under pattern, such that the spoke tension compresses the bend part of the spoke into the flange.
Please note:
Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on 14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50 mm).
- flanges which are too thin and / or hub holes which are too large in which case the spoke angle of 95° could increase to 120°
Correctly mounted SAPIM spokes never elongate. However, an incorrect hub can cause the bending angle to enlarge (elongation of the bend up to +1.5 mm per spoke) and buckle wheels.
- Oversized flanges cause extra pressure on the spoke heads. In consequence, the heads pop off.
- Consider spoke washers
Does anyone else have any thoughts or useful suggestions regarding this subject?
Alan
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Hi Jeroen,
I am Eric, also from the Netherlands (Tilburg). I bought a Magic Pie at Devi Comfort. Had to wait for more than a month for delivery. And still waiting for the battery (48v 12Ah). I now use 4x12V SLA (7 Ah) to test drive my bike.
My PAS (pedelec) is working but its not nice. Its like on off on off and then at full power, I disconneted it. I am looking for an other solution.
I also bought a Cycle Analist (Stand alone version) at ebikes.ca, so I can limiet my speed en power-output for legal use.
I put in the diode as discrypt in the CA manual, but that didn't work. So I removed (short cutted) the R6 resistor in the CA and now it's working, limiting my speed and amp's.
BTW: nice bike you have there.
My rim is also off center (about 1 cm) , but still clear from the frame.
I am looking for a 7 speed 11-28t freewheel, I now have a 6speed 14-28, I miss the little one. So if anyone knows a cheap address.........
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Hello Eric,
I have not tried the speed limit function of my Cycle analyst yet. I will have to wait untill I get a new throttle since mine is broken at the moment. If it works (with the diode) that I did put in as well I will let you know. Did you put the diode in the right way polarity wise?
Anyway I will tell you when everything works.
I also made a new case for the cycle analyst from a log (wood) Used a 8 pole waterproof connector to make it disconectable and 2 switches 1 speed limmit through variable resistor and 2 eco mode or current limmiter.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5392.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5394.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5407.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5408.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5405.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5406.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5403.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_5402.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6330.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6334.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6346.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6342.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6343.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/IMG_6348.jpg)
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Last photo by daylight
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That CA case is pure art. You should make and sell them. I'll take mine made of Purple Heart please so it won't rot here in the pacific north wet ;D Oh wait, I don't have a CA, yet. The Turnigy is working fine for my needs as I just want the info and don't need to restrict power as I am good to go here in OR with 1000w and use 48v lifepo4 12ah.
Well, off on a 20 mile ride to Carol's shop to switch out the 49cc motor with a 31cc (35cc limit here) on my gas bike. Because at the end of the day, it is way more fun than the electric. Especially for long distance adventuring. But for in town electric works better. If I ever need both I can hook up my pusher trailer to the gas bike though and get the best of both worlds. Will be recabling and replacing the chain(s) the bike also as long as I have it up on the bench. Working on bikes is fun luckily ;)
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JazzJerry;
I saw a neat hack somewhere that used a magnetic
reed switch epoxied under a small steel plate.
You put the switch somewhere, then place a magnet
on a string on it to enable your "turbo mode."
Instead of a physical switch they can see, you have an
almost invisible switch that you pull off and pocket
when you dismount.
It's not a bad idea for a lock switch too.
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Thats a good idear as well...... Might use it.
But for now this will do.
Good idear though.
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29 dec 2009
Also started on some soldering. The shunt resistor from the cycle analyst is a stand alone version and needs to be positioned between the battery and the controller. I liked the idear of having the cycle anayst pluggable so I can choose to ride without or even use 1 cycle analyst on more then 1 bike. So I soldered some high Amp connectors to the Shunt resistor so I can either ride with or without the cycle analyst.
To be able to do this I bought 4 connectors. Bat wire-Connector-Connector-Shunt resistor-connector-connector-power wire going to the controller.
So now I can loose the shunt and connect bat and controller without it by simply plugging in.
Hi Jeroen,
Nice job you did there with the cycle analyst,
I have a question: where did you buy those high amp connectors you use? the are the same as the connector on the battery, or not?
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Hi,
I found out that the Battery connectors are called "Anderson connectors SB50".
The are not commenly used in Europe, but you can buy them at Ebay.
Now I am looking for a local store were I can buy them ???
greetz Eric
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Eric,
Try local model shops first, or a Google shopping search for Anderson Powerpoles (http://www.google.com/products?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUK314&q=anderson%20powerpoles&lr=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf) if the model shops don't stock them.
Alan
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Hello Eric,
I bought them from Besli.nl they are a local shop here in Arnhem and I just went by and picked some up. They don't fit the plug from the battery but look identical though.
You should have aske on the dutch www.naafmotor.nl (http://www.naafmotor.nl) forum. I am on there a lot more.
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O.k. some of my latest specs.
27 03 2010
Fastest speed I did with my 48v 12ah GM battery and the pie is 52,1 Km/h But this is downhill with wind in my back.
Typical top speed on flat is about 38 Km/h
Max load I read of my cycle analyst going uphill with a fully charged bat is 1200 + watts
I live in a hilly area and if I go flat out I can do about 25 km untill the BMS kicks in.
I pull about 10 AH from my pack when fully charged until BMS kicks in.
In my area the pie uses 1 Ah every 2, something km
Still very happy with the bike and the pie though.
Remarks......
My pedelic mode and sensor that normaly does not function and has refused to work when I want it to, suddenly kicked in while peddeling a bit. I thought my throttle got stuck somehow and this scared me a bit. But after peddeling some more I realised the pedelic sensor suddenly started working.
I don't know how and why it suddenly worked, today tried it again and does not work anymore.
Other problem I found was the idear of having a preset potentiometer as a limmiter for when I see cops. Whith the throttle closed the voltage from the throttle signal drops below its typical 1v no throttle signal when I engage the preset potentiometer switch.. This makes the controller think there is something wrong with the throttle and gives 3 beeps. From there on the throttle stops working.
So this simple speed limmiting idear is not fully functional at this point.
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about that pas, have you done something with cruise control button while it kicked in? I thought you needed to press it twices or am I wrong?
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I have the same numbers! But I got faster downhill, maybe 'cause my wight :D I got 58km/h max, at flat terrain the max is close to 38km/h too and 25km range. I did not tested the Ah total battery consumption yet 'cause I do not have an external battery to keet the information, when the BMS kicks out I lost the data :D.
I need to buy a small pack to feed the wattmeter and have a complete reading too.
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Other problem I found was the idear of having a preset potentiometer as a limmiter for when I see cops. Whith the throttle closed the voltage from the throttle signal drops below its typical 1v no throttle signal when I engage the preset potentiometer switch.. This makes the controller think there is something wrong with the throttle and gives 3 beeps. From there on the throttle stops working.
So this simple speed limmiting idear is not fully functional at this point.
Fitting another preset potentiometer as shown should cure that problem:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2193.0;attach=2342;image)
Alan
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I did use the cruise controll a couple of times before that happened yes.... But just as the normal cruise controll function. I didn't press it twice. When I press it twice I hear a beep. Which should indicate that the PAS is working. But it still does not....
Maybe I did accedently press it twice and somehow the sensor did work for a while... I don't know.
When I get the time I might try the simple throttle restrictor mod No-2
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try pressing the cruise twices while pedalling on the bike going more than 5km/h maybe that should do it
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Will try that in the coming days, and will let you know if this works.
JJ
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I'm not an expert on these thing but I have had all the problems you can think of.
Throttle malfunction, cruise, regen braking, battery led gauge, short wires, broken connector, PAS problems.
You name it I have had it :)
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So Please think along with me......
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Pie-limmiting-1.jpg)
Ow NO... Just realised I need a resistor in between there as well...
But still I cant get a grip on how this will work........
What is happening here with just 1 wire diverted from the main wire feeding the controller going into the cycle analyst....
I cant bend my mind around this one......
And where do I posoition the switch to still have both options available. Throtle through cycle analyst and throttle straight up to the controller.... ?? If I would place a switch just before the diode would that do the trick?
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/Spekkie01/Wiring-limmit2.jpg)
Just curious what colour wire is the throttle signal wire coming from the GM throttle? I want to add the resitor and diode but not sure which colour wire to add it to.
Gary
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Gary,
The throttle signal wire should be White.
The Red wire is the +5v supply and the Black one is ground.
Alan
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Thats probably an even better Idear.
Might go for that one........ Hmm have to order another switch and and a 5k variable resistor then.
Would I need a
-MINI MON0 5K AXIAL
-MINI MON0 5K
-SUPERMINI LIN MN 5K
-MINI MON0 5K
-MINI MON0 5K AX + SWT
Do you need this resisitor with the GM throttle? When I add in this resistor my wheel barly turns. I used a 3.9 it turned very slowly then a 2.2 it turn slightly faster. Is this resistor already in the GM throttle. The diagram says "typically inside the controller" Im assuming they mean the throttle control due to the location of the resistor in the diagram. What if I run it without the resistor is something going to fry?
Gary
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Gary,
The throttle signal wire should be White.
The Red wire is the +5v supply and the Black one is ground.
Alan
Actually its green on mine, Thank you though, Now I am struggling with the resistor. Please see my other post.
Gary
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Gary,
I would try it with the the lead to the diode disconnected, as something must be causing a significant voltage drop across the resistor to affect the speed.
Are you sure the resistor is wired exactly as per the diagram?
If it works OK with the lead disconnected, it might be that one of the C/A's settings is causing it to restrict the throttle.
Alan
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I have tried it that way several times and currently the lead to the diode is still unhooked. Anytime I add the resistor it goes a 10 percent of regular speed. Anytime I remove the resistor It goes full speed. The resistor could actually already be present I'm assuming. Going to test the throttle leads for resistance now.
Yes I'm positive the wiring is as diagram shows.
There is 3.85 volts coming from the lead from the cycle analyst before the diode. So if that is hooked up again it will be fine.
Gary
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Gary,
It's not your wiring, it appears that the Magic Pie's controller requires more current than the recommended resistor will allow.
I just tested mine with a 4.7K resistor in series and the signal voltage drops from 3.62V to 1.42V across the resistor at full throttle.
This works out at 0.468mA (0.0004658Amp) which, although pretty small, is still too much to allow a usable voltage to pass through a resistor of this size.
For it to work correctly, a much smaller resistor will be necessary, but if it is too small it could overload the hall sensor in the throttle control or perhaps the C/A itself when it tries to ground the throttle signal input in order to override the throttle.
I just tested my throttle with an led and got a maximum of 11mA (0.011Amp) at full throttle (3.62V) which is roughly equivalent to a 330 Ohm resistor being grounded out, but I don't know how long the hall sensor would be able to cope with this load.
A 1K resistor would give a maximum load of 3.62ma (0.00362Amp) which might be acceptable.
If I get chance I'll do some more tests using a variable resistor to see how large the resistance can go before it starts to reduce the maximum speed.
If we had some specification on the hall sensor we could find out it's safe maximum continuous power output, but you would also need to contact someone at ebikes.ca to find out the maximum permissible load on the throttle override circuit.
For technical questions or troubleshooting issues, use info@ebikes.ca
I would try and contact them anyway and see if they have come across this problem before.
Alan
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Gary,
It's not your wiring, it appears that the Magic Pie's controller requires more current than the recommended resistor will allow.
Thanks for testing that Alan
It's not a pie though, its a 48v1000w hub motor. But still the same idea i'm sure. I was thinking the same thing about the smaller resistor. I just picked up an assortment pack. I'm going to go try a 1k right now to see how it goes..
Gary
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Gary,
I think the controllers are very similar in their design, so I would imagine they use the same throttle signal circuitry.
A 330 Ohm resistance gave a maximum of ~3.25V on the controller side of the resistor, which I would say is full throttle. ;)
This would put a load of ~9mA (0.009Amp) on the throttle and the C/A if it pulled the signal all the way down to 0.6V.(0V Ground + 0.6V Diode) But I don't suppose it pulls the voltage all that way, so the load on the hall sensor should be even less.
Just as a matter of interest, the motor starts working when the throttle signal voltage reaches ~1.25V and will give 3 beeps (indicating a throttle malfunction) if it falls below 0.58V. (Typically 0.82V with throttle released)
Alan
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Hi Alan
I tried several different resistors. It seems the threshhold is around 1.5 k to get the limiter function in the CA to work. With the wheel off the ground it will burst up to 35kph then wander down to 32kph an hold a somewhat steady speed. However, on a test ride this does now allow enough power to get up to 32k, only about 25k. With a 1.2 still not enough power. with a 1k resistor it gets up to 32kph then continues to go higher it went to 37k and still kept pulling. It seems that this method will not work with a GM setup. There is another option for limiting speed using the VI pinout on the CA as a throttle signal input and the TH pinout directly to the controller. This method did seem to work in a breif test but seemed a bit eratic. Further testing is required, but I ran out of time (and beer) to be able to test it fully. I have to put things back to normal for my commute to work.
Gary
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I have to put things back to normal for my commute to work so I can carry more Beer home from the shops at high speed.
Gary,
Did you contact ebikes.ca and if so what did they suggest? I'm sure Justin will be able to come up with a solution. ;)
The actual output is derived from an op-amp on the circuit board, and it is capable of both sinking and sourcing current. In the original Cycle Analyst boards (identified by a lack of label on the PCB) this output was wired directly from the op-amp, so it was quite stiff, but also made the board vulnerable to damage if the Throttle Over-Ride was accidentally wired incorrectly to a voltage source. In PCB revision 7 (labelled DB2 Rev7b), the output line was modified to include a 1k resistor (R6) to protect the silicone. This however means that the Over-Ride line can only source or sink small currents, and if more than a mA needs to be drawn from the output, then resistor R6 should either be reduced in value to a couple hundred ohms, or possibly shorted out entirely.
This could be the answer, use a 330 ohm resistor in line instead of the 3-5K suggested and then solder a small link directly across R6 to bypass it.
It would be advisable to run this suggestion past Justin first, and check that the op-amp can cope with sinking ~9mA max.
Alan
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Hello Gary and Bikemad,
I haven't figured the cycle analyst limmiting features out yet either.
I did connect the analyst, but had some problems, Have not realy looked into it after that so gary if you find a solution please keep me updated as well.
I also ended up trying voltage in through the VI pad but this resulted in wheelspin without me using the throttle....???
I ran out of beer and out of electrotechnical inspiration. so left it to rest and hoped somebody would pick it up in the forums as wel to inspire me some more. and try again.
JJ
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This could be the answer, use a 330 ohm resistor in line instead of the 3-5K suggested and then solder a small link directly across R6 to bypass it.
It would be advisable to run this suggestion past Justin first, and check that the op-amp can cope with sinking ~9mA max.
Alan
SUCCESS!! THIS IS THE ANSWER!!!
The 330 ohm resistor the diode of any size and the jumper on R6!
Since I have CA_SA v2.11, I didn’t like the way the VI worked on my cycle analyst as it would jump when the key was turned on( a bug in ver 2.11 fixed in v2.2) and there was no cruise. So I went back to the diode and resistor with the above specs and it works great! The cruise even works but is independent of the CA. Lets say the cruise is set at 32k. When you take off you can use the throttle and go up the 32k and it the CA works great, holding you at that speed. If you want to go past 32k you can slow down below 30k or so then give it full throttle hit the cruise button and it will go past the settings of the CA. If you hit the brakes then you have to go below 32k to use the cruise to pass the limits of the CA again. I`m still going to keep my switch for override but I like that you can just give it a boost even when the CA is doing its job.
Anyway its late and I’ll post more about it later but its working great!
Gary
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Last and Worst thing I found is the off center rim and bad spoke job. Why not have the rimm in the middle? And why do I have to readjust my spokes every ride....
Because of the big size of the motor (which I think is cool and nice) the spokes are put under an angle that is not normal for a standard rim. This results in bent spokes and spokethreads and difficulties to even respoke the motor.
I think the only sollution here is to get a rim that has custom angled spokeholes to keep the spokes and spoke nipples in a straight line towards the hub.
Jerry,
I fully agree with the spoke angle problem, which cannnot help to maintain an even tension on the spokes.
Due to the large angle between the spoke and the rim (See attachments below for more details), the nipples cannot seat correctly and as a result of this, the tensile force of each spoke is concentrated on one very small point of contact, instead of being spread evenly around the head of the nipple.
As the nipple tries to pull itself down to seat onto the rim, this single contact point will act as a pivot for the nipple, causing it to bend the spoke whilst trying to achieve the impossible (a fully supported and correctly seated position in the rim).
Unfortunately, the nipple will never be correctly seated in the rim, so it has no option but to spend the rest of its life under unnecessary strain waiting for something to eventually fail.
I suspect the loosening of the spokes is probably due to this:
A common reason for spokes to fail on hub motors isn't because the motor puts extra strain on the spokes, or because the spokes aren't a thick enough gauge, it's because of fatigue failure from spokes that aren't held snug against the flange. If the spoke bend radius is too large or too far from the head, then it can flex up and down at the bend with each wheel rotation, eventually causing it to crack and fail.
This problem has been legendary with overseas built hub motors, and we had some Crystalyte shipments where about half the customers would experience spoke breakage on a recurring basis. Ideally the distance between the head and the bend in your spoke will match the thickness of the hub flange, and you won't have problems. But if not, there are two ways to address the situation. One is to insert a washer under the spoke head. The second way is to lace the wheel in an over/under pattern, such that the spoke tension compresses the bend part of the spoke into the flange.
Please note:
Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on 14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50 mm).
- flanges which are too thin and / or hub holes which are too large in which case the spoke angle of 95° could increase to 120°
Correctly mounted SAPIM spokes never elongate. However, an incorrect hub can cause the bending angle to enlarge (elongation of the bend up to +1.5 mm per spoke) and buckle wheels.
- Oversized flanges cause extra pressure on the spoke heads. In consequence, the heads pop off.
- Consider spoke washers
Does anyone else have any thoughts or useful suggestions regarding this subject?
Alan
has this basic engineering problem been addressed and cured yet
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has this basic engineering problem been addressed and cured yet
YES The spoke problem has been addressed and fixed ;D