GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: mantares on May 17, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
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I am installing two MPs on a three wheel cart. Although not absolutely necessary, it would be helpful if I could reverse the motor direction. Is this possible by reversing the motor polarity or will this damage the motor?
UPDATE:
On later Magic Pies, the Blue and Yellow Phase wires and the Green and Yellow Hall sensor wires need to be swapped to reverse the motor's default direction.
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Do not reverse the battery polarity! You will burn the controller!
Magic Pie does not have the reverse option as you do not have the reverse button wire to use.
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Thanks, I suspected as much!
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I have 4 MP with the reverse function. So it is possible.
it seems It is possible to activate the function in the software.
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Humm I was not able to get it working on my pie. Not that I need it :)
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as I was unable to connect the software yet, so I cannot garanty you can enable or disable the reverse through the soft. the MPs I have have been ordered with the reverse function so they arrived already with the correct parameters.
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I am installing two MPs on a three wheel cart. Although not absolutely necessary, it would be helpful if I could reverse the motor direction. Is this possible by reversing the motor polarity or will this damage the motor?
Yes it is possible to reverse the motor phase wires, I think you swap the the outside phase wires, but you can not reverse the black and red wires that lead to the motor you will blow your caps up or worse.
Thje difference is the phase wires are inside the motor and the red an black wire are the battery to the motor/controller wires you cant change these motor power wires.
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I don't think the reverse function is available on all Magic Pies without a bit of modification, as the terminal on the controller (which is usually grounded to select reverse) is not connected to anything and cannot therefore be accessed for switching.
I haven't tried it, but connecting the Reverse connection to ground (0V) on the controller should select reverse, assuming it's still enabled on the Pie's controller.
With the early Pies, the Yellow wire is not connected inside the hub and it may be possible to use this wire for switching reverse by connecting it to the reverse terminal on the controller (marked "d") inside the hub, and to a switch at the other end. But if reverse is not enabled by default, this still may not work.
Although the software for use with later controllers gives an option to enable and adjust the speed in reverse, this will only be of any use with the external cruise controller, where a reverse switch can be easily connected to it.
Check out this link containing suggestions for removing the cover: http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2103.msg10472#msg10472
If permanent reverse rotation is required, it should be possible to achieve this by swapping the green and yellow phase wires over (and the green and yellow hall sensor wires as well) where they are soldered onto the controller board.
Alan
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I do not understand your answer Bikemad?
On the 4 pies I have, the reverse function IS working and is activated by the REVERSE button situated on the thumb throttle case. the wire connected to this button is shorting the R terminal to ground
on the following picture, this is the yellow wire on the 12 pins terminal.
the functions of the different wires on this terminal for my pie are as follow:
Blue on B: brakes switches
Yellow on R: Reverse
Grey on T2: Throttle signal
red on T1: +5V
green on C: Cruise control
black on Z: 0V
Purple on G: communication port
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7707/p1017174.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/p1017174.jpg/)
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I do not understand your answer Bikemad?
On the 4 pies I have, the reverse function IS working and is activated by the REVERSE button situated on the thumb throttle case. the wire connected to this button is shorting the R terminal to ground
On the early Pies (like mine) the yellow lead is not connected to the controller:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2006.0;attach=1836;image) (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2006.0;attach=1836;image)
On the later Pies, the yellow lead is used for data transfer when using the USB interface lead:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2006.0;attach=1840;image) (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2006.0;attach=1840;image)
Presumably, some of the Pies (like yours) have the yellow lead pre-wired for reverse:
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7707/p1017174.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7707/p1017174.jpg)
Alan
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Hi my USB cable works without yellow cable connected...
Rodge, is your yellow lead not connected at the controller end or just at the harness end?
Alan
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Both. I had to open the hub casing and no it wasn't hooked up.
I have only noticed change with regen adjustment, so not sure if that's any difference.
Cheers
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So does this usb lead work with all the pie's then? I wish gm could come out with all the facts I am getting fed-up with playing miss Marple.I would be happy enough to buy a lead if I knew it would work with my pie.
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Hey GF3
I am like you and would biuy that cable in a heartbeat if it would or could work with a little mod.
Stan
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Both. I had to open the hub casing and no it wasn't hooked up.
I have only noticed change with regen adjustment, so not sure if that's any difference.
Cheers
^^^ Ohh!! Have no clue what I was thinking that night... Too much pie I think !
YES My YELLOW cable is connected!! See attached pic of my open hub. For some strange reason I was thinking REVERSE hahaahha I had my wires crossed in the picture in my head lol.
So sorry BikeMad you owe me a big slap with a sloppy trout for that!
I am pretty sure this only works with post-March MP's ( as it works with my friends wheel we bought at the same time (In March) so if you got yours after March you should be okay ;D
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@monkeymagic,
your are still confusing us (me at least)
on your picture, I guess the red circles indicate the connected wires??
if yes, this is strange cause one is missing and one is not supposed to be connected (see my mod of your picture)
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nope the picture was one I had showing yellow wire connected to controller.
cheers
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Hey!
Has anyone tried to swap the phase wires? Wich one do I need to swap? I really do not want to burn something!
Gapy
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So I tried to swap the wires, but non of the configs work!? Do I need to swap the hall sensors too?
Gapy
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Have you tried connecting the Reverse connection to ground (0V) on the controller? This may select reverse if it's still enabled on the Pie's controller.
If you're going to swap phase wires instead, I would start by swapping the green and yellow phase wires first, but you will also need to swap the green and yellow hall sensor wires as well!
Don't forget to let us know if these are the right wires. ;)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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I tried to swap the phase wires and sensors, but no luck! When I swaped
1.green and yellow - motor spins in same direction, but much louder
2. blue and yellow - same as 1.
3. blue and green - does not spin at all!!
So swaping the phase wires does not work!!
And then I thhink of much easier solution-swap the motor covers!
All I need is to have the disc brakes on the other side!
Anybody see the problems that could have accured???
Gapy
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Wait a minute, when you reverse one pair of the three
leads on the external controller you don't have to mess
with the hall sensors, they just get it. The wheel
runs backwards.
You should be able to do that with the MP too, you must
not be changing the leads you think you are.
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Well I tried to swap just the phase wires, but then the motor does not spin at all! The hall sensors definetly has to do something with the direction of the motor, that is why there are three of them-(you need three to determine the direction of rotation)!
So the easier way is to swap the covers and then there is no need to swap any wires!!?
Gapy
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Very complicated subject isnt it..
Im going around in circles trying to figure a way to explain it to make sense.
Hall sensors are placed in order of blue yellow green. Theoretically Green is placed at 0 degrees Yellow is placed 120 deg after it and Blue 240deg after blue.
The phase wires are placed in order too, the way they are next to each other in forward GYB>>>> or reversed <<<BYG So forward must have yellow next after blue and backward must have yellow next after green.
The phase order and direction forward is GYB>>>>
The hall sensors are in line GYB>>>>
The phase in reversed order is now and direction is <<BYG
Maybe reverse the order of B and G hall sensors. <<BYG
Its topographic to how the halls are positioned in the stator to the corresponding phase order. Yellow can stay constant as it is signified by being placed in the centre of Blue and Green similarly as Green will be centre of Yellow and green next in reversed direction. And Blue will be centre of yellow and green in forward.
At no stage should you see. YBG or BGY in reverse
And at no stage should you see GBY YGB in forward
The three phase and hall colours do run in a defined order divided by the two possible directions the wheel could possibly rotate..
Bikemad already posted the answer.
I havent tested this but I am with BM on this.
Swap the hall wires too. I think!
Edit:
Ahhh and all old GM controller thus far have on the "PCB" Y G B but the motors are B G Y Now for the controllers to work with all GM motors it must be the same as my HBS. BYG
So ignore what order they are on the PCB. The color matters and where they sit in order in the motor.
Edited.
I had reverse and forward the wrong way to my GM HBS36.
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All GM examples Ive seen on the net the yellow phase wire is always in the centre of line both on the hall sensors and the phase wires.
Green pulls in one direction and Blue the other direction so yellow is the follower to either direction.
So My suggestion is to change blue and green on the phase and on the halls and leave yellow connected to yellow.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2171.0;attach=2895;image]http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2171.0;attach=2895;image)
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All GM examples I've seen on the net the yellow phase wire is always in the centre of line both on the hall sensors and the phase wires.
Green pulls in one direction and Blue the other direction so yellow is the follower to either direction.
So My suggestion is to change blue and green on the phase and on the halls and leave yellow connected to yellow.
The question related to the Magic Pie, and mine is wired like this:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG)
If you click the image to enlarge it, the colours of the hall sensor wires are more obvious.
(I did have to highlight the yellow one because it was a bit camera shy)
This is why I originally suggested swapping the Green and Yellow leads:
Have you tried connecting the Reverse connection to ground (0V) on the controller? This may select reverse if it's still enabled on the Pie's controller.
If you're going to swap phase wires instead, I would start by swapping the green and yellow phase wires first, but you will also need to swap the green and yellow hall sensor wires as well!
I gave the same advice a couple of months ago, following an email asking how to reverse the rotation on one of the Magic Pie's fitted to this hybrid car project:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hassanshybridcar.JPG)
We went for swaPping the winding and hall sensor wires. It worked. Our problem has been solved. Thanks for your help.
So I therefore assumed my suggestion to transpose the Green and Yellow leads was correct.
Alan
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I have really tried to swap phases and hall sensors in all possible ways, but nothing worked for me! Here is a pic of my pie's controller for you to see and advise me where to connect(turn on) the reverse function if it even exist on my controller!
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Gapy,
Looking at your photo, the yellow wire appears to be connected to the reverse connection on your controller, so you should be able to select reverse by connecting the thin yellow lead to ground (any one of the thin black leads) where the wires exit the main wiring harness.
Alan
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Tried that-no luck!
Mybe my pie is cursed :-\
The yellow wire is solderd at "d"...
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I think the "d" must stand for direction, but I don't know for sure, but the Pie with reverse appears to have the yellow lead connected to the "d" terminal just like yours has.
See this earlier post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2171.msg11789#msg11789)
I presume your motor still runs OK in the usual direction, just not in the right direction for you.
Alan
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Yes, my pie works fine in forward direction...
I noticed that one of the controller has yellow wire soldered to rx...
Did anyone actualy have luck in reversing the MP by grounding the "d" terminal? Do I need to ground "rx"?
Gapy
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All GM examples I've seen on the net the yellow phase wire is always in the centre of line both on the hall sensors and the phase wires.
Green pulls in one direction and Blue the other direction so yellow is the follower to either direction.
So My suggestion is to change blue and green on the phase and on the halls and leave yellow connected to yellow.
The question related to the Magic Pie, and mine is wired like this:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/hallsensors.JPG)
If you click the image to enlarge it, the colours of the hall sensor wires are more obvious.
(I did have to highlight the yellow one because it was a bit camera shy)
This is why I originally suggested swapping the Green and Yellow leads:
Have you tried connecting the Reverse connection to ground (0V) on the controller? This may select reverse if it's still enabled on the Pie's controller.
If you're going to swap phase wires instead, I would start by swapping the green and yellow phase wires first, but you will also need to swap the green and yellow hall sensor wires as well!
I gave the same advice a couple of months ago, following an email asking how to reverse the rotation on one of the Magic Pie's fitted to this hybrid car project:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hassanshybridcar.JPG)
We went for swaping the winding and hall sensor wires. It worked. Our problem has been solved. Thanks for your help.
So I therefore assumed my suggestion to transpose the Green and Yellow leads was correct.
Alan
LOL
SO I presume that the GM HBS motors and the Pie with its internal controllers are obviously not the same. Does this apply to any Magic controller too with my and half the other GM hubs out there, Mine both were the same, yellow wire in the middle.
Actually this pie has been the first GM hub I've seen with the yellow on the outside, but my eyes don't see everything.
I don't doubt you BM, you're advice is usually very accurate when concerning GM products, Once I saw some order and now am seeing chaos considering the GM phase and hall wire colour standards.
Will I have to mess around with the hall and phase wires? Things may of changed, oh well.
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Yes, my pie works fine in forward direction...
I noticed that one of the controller has yellow wire soldered to rx...
Did anyone actualy have luck in reversing the MP by grounding the "d" terminal? Do I need to ground "rx"?
Gapy
rx is a data receive port.
tx is data transmission port.
I "believe" there is two levels of software access. Dont quote me on any of this.
One is for the low level programming the base programming of the controller.
And the other maybe for the user access level to the cmos settings. Similar to a computer motherboard bios and cmos. One is for the binary I/O system and the other cmos stores the settings. This can be burnt on a EEPROM or held suspended in nvram and powered by an onboard battery.
Like when you change the setting of the Pie you are not accessing the raw level programming in the controller just the settings.
Possibly this D place on the PCB is for the settings. I still don't own a GM magic controller, would be interesting to own an external Pie and play with this stuff..