GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: keratea on August 20, 2010, 02:18:11 PM
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My internal controller in Magic Pie rear wheel has broken (As Tom told me).
I am thinking to change this controller whith the external that GM sells as it is more stable.
I have some quastions.
1) Do I have to buy a new harness so to put the new external controller, or the one that comes with the kit can fit?
2) I had a cut on the fat cable that comes out of the motor , near the axle. Is it coming with the harness? If not how can I ask for that cable to buy?
3)In my Country the temprature in summer is about 30-40 celsius degrees (The resone that the internal controller died I thing)
I am not sure if it is good to buy the plastic box to put in the controller because the heat of the controller will be closed in the box and maybe I shall die and the new controller...Am I right? If it rains have you any idea how to protect the controller?
If was a fan in the box? ::)
Thank you
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The wiring for the external controller will be different to what you already have.
I haven't yet seen any pictures of the harness that comes with the external controller version of the Pie, but you will need to purchase the wiring harness for the wheel side of the controller (motor harness) and then adapt the battery, throttle, brake and cruise wiring to suit, if the external controller does not come with an adapter harness of some sort.
The fat cable is specific to the internal controller, the motor harness for the external controller would be required instead.
If you want the controller to stay cool and dry, you could cut out the base of the box and set the controller into it from below.
Make a card or paper template first to get the correct size and shape before actually cutting the box.
You might also want to check that you have adequate clearance beneath the box to allow the controller to stick out completely without touching the tyre (or mudguard if fitted).
If you seal all around the joint with silicone sealant it should keep the water away from the connections, while leaving the body of the controller completely exposed to the air for much better cooling.
(See attachment below.)
Alan
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It is a major change.
You need have 5 thin wires for the hall sensors
(Black, Red, Yellow, Green and Blue)
and three thicker power leads.
(Yellow, Green and Blue)
There are only two power leads coming out of the Magic Pie.
There are enough other wires to send the hall sensor
wires out.
To switch to the external controller you are going to have to
rewire the hub to get those connections. I have no idea how
the internals of the Magic Pie are wired, but there should
be room inside to make the connections once you remove the
internal controller.
However, it means the connectors supplied won't do.
I think the motor power wires that come with the external
controller are AWG12, while the hall sensor wires are AWG18
or 20.
You're going to have to bundle them together and run them
out through the axle hole. (good luck there.)
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Yeah agreed.
You will probably find yourself hard wiring, hand soldering and shrink wrapping every connection. Keep all the high voltage spaghetti shielding for your inside connections.
The phase leads do not need to be as thick as the battery cables as the phase power is supplied via PWM. A member here Mark AKA Scorpion here has done the internal to external controller mod and used 12awg for phase wires.
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Hi keratea
I used this 12AWG cable from alphawire
http://alphawireonline.com/Products/Wire/Hook-Up-Wire/EcoWire/6718.aspx
This 12g cable is very thin and 3 fit perfect along with the cat 5 sized hall wires! I had to buy a full role of black as I could not buy off cuts! I used yellow, green and blue small cables ties to identify them. Then write down the hall wire colours to the cable you use.
I used cat 5 networking cable and cut the wires off I didn't need.
Okay first of all if you are not used to this, then you need to be very patent indeed! And take off the sprocket side cover off the motor. You will need to remove the motor stator. And that can be quiet hard. I got a length of wood and placed the axle on it and pushed very hard on the wheel and it popped out, Putting it back, well, just make sure your fingers are well out of the way! Use heatshrink to insulate where you make your connections in the motor. Put some tape on the cables and tie them to the axle to stop the force of the motor going back from damaging them.
How you connect the controller end of the cables is up to you, I got a bag of matching connectors for the controller I used to make connecting and disconnecting simple, Or you can just solder and heat shrink!
There are 2 circular clips on the cable side of the axle, and you will need a special tool to remove them, it can be a pain. I could not find any of the right size, so I did not put them back on. Just make sure you use a cable tie on the outer part of the axle to keep the cables from rubbing off the motor. It has worked fine for me. Oh yeah I got the matching throttle and ebrake, simply because they had the connectors for the controller!
Remember the external magic controller will only output 20 amps max, some say less. I got the 40 amp infineon controller from ebikes.ca and the direct plugin cycle analyst, with external speed sensor. The cycle analyst gives a very accurate indication of what you have left in your battery + you can adjust your current limits and speed limits. For the pie I really recommend that controller or similar.
Anyway good luck and keep us posted on how you get on
Mark
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Since this might happend to others, some good pictures on the forum would be great for later:)
Good luck on the work. Ill keep my fingers crossed for you.
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I am trying to communicate with Tom but there is no response , 20 days has past...
I only want to buy a replasment internal controller to fix it by myself and they do not reply me. >:(
A have Master ( Quality Assurance Manager ) and I now very well what means quality control...
But there is nothing at all.No warranty, no email .The only hope is that forum.
I opened the wheel from the other side of the freewheel (i now the cable... but I desided to replace it and I already ordered the
ALPHA WIRE 12AWG and the infernon 40A controller.I can not now open the freewheel side cover now.Can you tell me how to open the freewheel cover?
I saw someone wrote something for a wood or something like that.And by the way wy have I pull out the stator?
Is it possible to make a damage to the stator?What must I be carefull?
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Hi Grecomaskara,
Welcome to the GM forums,
Yet another internal controller dies!
You need to open the freewheel side first. I did not open the other side!
Does the cover come off even slightly?
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It was very hard. I had to cut the cable.It was a stupis idea and a mistake from me.Now can you tell me again what to do
so to take off the freewheel cover?As I understand there is no need to take off the freewheel as it is on the cover.
But I can not understand how to take of that cover.Ihave a plastic hammer.
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Remove the nine cover retaining bolts and give the axle a big smart tap on the end opposite the side you are removing using a wooden or rubber mallet (or a block of wood and a hammer) to loosen the joint. If the joint doesn't separate first time, hit the axle a bit harder until it does. ;)
Once the joint has been separated, the cover should come away relatively easily. A squirt of oil on the shaft/bearing and possibly some heat from a hair dryer to expand the cover slightly may help if it's tight.
There's no need to remove the freewheel unit separately as it will come away with the cover.
If you put a piece of tape next to one of the holes on both the hub and the cover you can make sure it goes back in exactly the same place.
Alan
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BTW, you do need a freewheel tool to remove the gear cluster.
You might find that part easier if you just go to a bike shop
and ask them to pull it off for you.
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Finally I managed to open the motor.
I had a problem with the tool that unscrews the freewheel.
It has a hole for the axle, but it was smaller than axle diameter...
So I took a electric drill and opened the hole about 2-3 millimetre.
The motor came out with a lot of push with the cover. Then I removed
the cover and took off the internal controller.
Now on Monday I am waiting for the new 40a controller, so I shall start the serious fixing.
I have now 3 fat cables and 5 thin coming from the motor.
How must connect now the 3 phases and the 5 thin cables to the new controller?
Is there anything to be careful?
I do not want to make any damage to the new expensive controller...
Thanks
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How must connect now the 3 phases and the 5 thin cables to the new controller?
Is there anything to be careful?
I do not want to make any damage to the new expensive controller...
If you can't find matching connectors, you will probably have to solder the wires instead. Make sure the joints are well made and properly insulated to prevent shorting.
I'm guessing the colour of the wires will be similar, so make sure the Yellow, Green and Blue connections on both the phase and hall sensor wires are connected to the correct coloured wires on the controller. There should also be a thin Red, and a thin Black wire for the hall sensors power supply.
If there is a problem matching the colours on the new controller, post the details here and we should be able to help you decide which wires go where.
Alan
P.S. You didn't need to remove the freewheel, as it would have come off complete with the cover, but at least you now have a modified removal tool all ready for when you may need to use it again. ;)
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Thank you Bikemad ;D
The controller is infernon (40A) and I thing that the colores are matching:blue,green,yellow,black,red.
The 3 fat wires are very hard to make a good solder .I decided to connect them with clemens connector and insulate with insulate tape.
Is it right or shall I have any problem to the future?
Is the heat so match in the whell , that can melt the conectors and to have again to open tha motor?
By the way I took a multimeter and I saw that 1 fet has sorted and a microchip has damaged...
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Thank you Bikemad ;D
The controller is infernon (40A) and I thing that the colores are matching:blue,green,yellow,black,red.
The 3 fat wires are very hard to make a good solder .I decided to connect them with clemens connector and insulate with insulate tape.
Is it right or shall I have any problem to the future?
Is the heat so match in the whell , that can melt the conectors and to have again to open tha motor?
By the way I took a multimeter and I saw that 1 fet has sorted and a microchip has damaged...
Hi grecomaskara
I would use heat shrink to insulate your connections! Ant it's much neater than tape!
What battery do you have? The infinion uses a lot of current and your battery must be capable of supplying the current!
Mark
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My battery is 36v 16A LI-ION That one I bought from Goldenmotor...
Shall I have problem? I can not even thing any new problem :'(
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My battery is 36v 16A LI-ION That one I bought from Goldenmotor...
Shall I have problem? I can not even thing any new problem :'(
I think you should be fine, This is the specs for the GM batteries.
Max Discharge Current: 35A(12AH)/60A(16AH)
Max Continuous Discharge Current: 20A(12AH)/30A(16AH)
The max continuous is the one to watch out for. I am sure you will be able to pull 40 amps for short periods no problem, though I can't guarantee that!
Did you by any chance purchase the cycle analyst with the controller? If you did and if you have problems with excessive current, you would be able to limit the current through the cycle analyst.
Mark
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LFP-3616S 36V/16AH is the correct name of the battery.
It is a plan for later to buy the cycle analyst...
As I undertand I have not to push for a long time the throttle.
I ordered the infernon 40A as to not be again in magic controller advendures ;D
I am a dammy in electronics, can you tell me shall I see diferences on riding with the new controller?
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LFP-3616S 36V/16AH is the correct name of the battery.
It is a plan for later to buy the cycle analyst...
As I undertand I have not to push for a long time the throttle.
I ordered the infernon 40A as to not be again in magic controller advendures ;D
I am a dammy in electronics, can you tell me shall I see diferences on riding with the new controller?
Yeah It's much more powerful than a standard magic controller. Good acceleration, and hill climbing!
You will be able to use full throttle, I don't see why not, as the pie will only consume high amps on take off or hill climbing and once up to speed, it should consume on level ground around 17-20 amps!
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Holey moley!
Really Mark? Wow that's a hungry pie hey what top speeds are you getting? And what wheel size & controller is Pat running if you were saying he gets a better top speed?
Me curious!
:D
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Holey moley!
Really Mark? Wow that's a hungry pie hey what top speeds are you getting? And what wheel size & controller is Pat running if you were saying he gets a better top speed?
Me curious!
:D
Pat is running the magic controller, 48v 20 amp VPower battery, and a conhismotor 1kw motor, which I think is similar to GM's 1kw motor!
And 26" wheel. But he has much less torque and has no chance against me on hills.
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yup they are very similar, and you will find that there is only so many hub motor manufacturers in china but a whole heap of distributors its amazing.
Lol and I always wondered if the guy who made the conhismotor name was Con ;) hehe
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Well today I went to the customs and took the new controller.
Now I shall begin the wiring in the wheel.
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I did the new wiring in the wheel :D :D :D
I soldered the 3 phaces wires with the 12awg alphawire and the 5 thin wires with a cat5.
I was trying very hard to make all the wires to be in the hole of the cover so to take them out of the wheel.
A little machine oil helped me to do that.
I put the stator in the wheel and believe me I only touched the rotor and it came in the wheel with a strong way.
The magnets are so powerfull...I have never seen before a motor with that magnets.
Then I managed the wires so not to touch the wheel, I put heat srhring and closed the covers slowly.
At the end I tryied a multimeter to see if the wiring was o.k.
When I started to move the wheel, the multimeter started to give me numbers (volts) and from the 3 phaces.
So I believe that the motor is O.k.Am I right?
Tomorrow is the day of truth.I shall connect the controller.
I want to connect the controller phases wires with a connector that here we name it 'clemens'.
Is a good conection or 40A shall melt it?
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I have wiring problems.
The colors of the inferno controller are the same with the wheel's.
But the motor just spin for some cm and nothing at all.
I then started to change the colors and the problem did not solved.
I am afraid if I have hall sencor brake in the wheel.
I noticed that with controller of and no wires connected, there is a little resistanse from the wheel and to the two directions.
Is there a short in the motor?
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A slight resistance in both directions is perfectly normal, this is just the powerful magnets being attracted to the stator. ;)
Before testing the wheel, I suggest you check that your battery voltage is as least 40V.
(It should be almost 42V if it has just been fully charged.)
You can use a voltmeter to test the hall sensors as follows:
1) Connect the Black meter lead to the hall sensor Black wire.
2) Connect the Red meter lead to the hall sensor Red wire and check for ~5V (with the battery turned on).
If you do not have a reading of 4-5V you could have a problem with the controller.
3) Move the Red meter lead to the hall sensor Yellow wire and very slowly turn the wheel by hand (with the battery turned on).
You should notice the meter reading alternate between 0 and 5V as the wheel is moved slowly.
(Indicating that the Yellow hall sensor is working correctly.)
4) Repeat step 3 for both the Blue and Green sensor wires.
5) Let us know the results.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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Well I connected the wires to voltometer as you adviced me, and the results are:
from the wheel thin wires
yellow wire........ 4.22
green wire.........4.22
blue wire........not stable numbers the voltometer is crazy.
from the controller the output thin wires have:
red.....4.65
yellow...4.99
green...4.99
blue...4.99
Notice that it is a very cheap voltometer....
I understand that the problem is with the (blue wire) hall sensor.
Must I order that honeywell ss41 sensor to fix it?
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The Positive/Negative sign for your measurements is important.
With the power on and the controller connected measure
the green-yellow-blue measurements should alternate
when you turn the wheel by hand.
EG: 5V... is bad. 0V is bad.
You want 0 5 0 5 0 5 as you turn the wheel slowly.
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i have that 0 5 0 5... with the yellow and green wire only.
the blue one give me random negative and positive little numbers, changing very fast and I understand that I a little current that is generating when I am moving the wheel
and is no right...
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A hall sensor could be bad
The part is Honeywell SS41.
http://www.onlinecomponents.com/buy/HONEYWELL/SS41/ (http://www.onlinecomponents.com/buy/HONEYWELL/SS41/)
(http://cdn.sigma.octopart.com/5260036/image/Honeywell-SS41.jpeg)
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2409.0;attach=3278;image)
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Thank you all ;D
I ordered some hall sensors and I am waiting them now.
I hope that the motor is O.K. and I have not damage in it.
I have now new controller , I will change the sensors, new harness ...
The bad thing of all this situation is a lot of work and some extra money.
The good one is that now I have learned a lot of that motors.
And I can see that it is a very strong and good motor but GM are trying the best to believe all
of us that it is not with there warranty policy...
And if I manage to fix it I shall be very proud for myself
and to my forum friends leslie, Bikemad, etc.
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Hey guys
The part about removing the motor stator, is that just necessary for the spoked wheels?
When I removed the casing etc. from my cast wheel I did not need to remove anything from the inside to run the cables (replacement Magic Pie internal cables) I just fed the wires the bare ends through the wheel from the outside in.
So now that I'm wanting to get a sensorless controller for this 16" wheel I have sitting here, if I can see the phase wires inside and can run new ones and secure them correctly then I won't need to remove the stator true?
This part is puzzling me a bit
Also, because this wheel has been through 2 controllers is there any way I can test this thing thoroughly before I go and buy a controller for it? That's my biggest question
Cheers
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finally I changed the bad sensor.
I twisted the throttle , tha motor do not turn.I moved a little the wheel and then started to spin for only 2 or 3 seconds,
and then the current from the controller stops...
I tried a lot of times and I had the same results.
The battery was full (42v). I started to test the thin wires coming from the motor.
But there was already 4.7 v and to the three sensors, even I was moving by hand the wheel...
I started to make some tests: I connected the green sensor wire but no movment.
Then the yellow one, no movement. But when I connected the blue one (with the new sensor) tha motor started
to spin for that 2 seconds and some noise and vibration.
I see that the other sensors are bad and I think that I should change all 3 sensors.
I am very sad because I did a good job on changing that sensor.
Is it possible that and the other sensors are bad or is there a motor problem that I can not fix on tha magnets?
And I saw that there was a vibration from the motor with extra noise...
HELP
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finally I changed the bad sensor.
I see that the other sensors are bad and I think that I should change all 3 sensors.
I am very sad because I did a good job on changing that sensor.
Is it possible that and the other sensors are bad or is there a motor problem that I can not fix on tha magnets?
Well I connected the wires to voltometer as you adviced me, and the results are:
from the wheel thin wires
yellow wire........ 4.22
green wire.........4.22
blue wire........not stable numbers the voltometer is crazy.
The volts are supposed to vary between high and low as the magnets pass by the hall sensor.
If the yellow and green sensor voltages did not vary, it looks like they will be faulty, not the blue sensor that you have changed. :(
I suggest you check the sensors again to confirm whether they are working correctly or not.
If the voltage on the sensor output lead remains steady as the wheel is slowly turned, then the sensor is faulty.
Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m8DA6mmo84) demonstrating how to test the hall sensors.
Alan
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finally I changed the bad sensor.
I see that the other sensors are bad and I think that I should change all 3 sensors.
I am very sad because I did a good job on changing that sensor.
Is it possible that and the other sensors are bad or is there a motor problem that I can not fix on tha magnets?
Well I connected the wires to voltometer as you adviced me, and the results are:
from the wheel thin wires
yellow wire........ 4.22
green wire.........4.22
blue wire........not stable numbers the voltometer is crazy.
The volts are supposed to vary between high and low as the magnets pass by the hall sensor.
If the yellow and green sensor voltages did not vary, it looks like they will be faulty, not the blue sensor that you have changed. :(
I suggest you check the sensors again to confirm whether they are working correctly or not.
If the voltage on the sensor output lead remains steady as the wheel is slowly turned, then the sensor is faulty.
Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m8DA6mmo84) demonstrating how to test the hall sensors.
Alan
Yes the sesnors that don't change are stuck. Meaning they ar4e the sensors that are failing. 9 times out of 10 it's a latched sensor failing to release, he may of replaced the only good hall sensor.
But then shouldn't the controller go into sensorless mode if any hall fails?.
grecomaskara
If you switch the power on and the wheel doesn't free wheel or has much resistance you have blown the the fet stage in the controller.
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But then shouldn't the controller go into sensorless mode if the hall fails?.
Leslie, Grecomaskara's not using a Magic Controller, and I'm pretty sure the C3640-NC Infineon controllers don't have a sensorless mode. :(
Alan
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grecomaskara
Your motor is OK you have to do a lot more than melt a few hall sensors and controllers to damage the motor, at least this part of the kit is very strong.
Try carrying 250 kg weight ( total weight) on a big hill or hook up your pack to the phase wires for a short while thhen you may smell some smoke. The nose knows.
Any toxic smells that may come from the motor is a very bad sign.
If you have all your wires from the motor and halls correct then it just a matter of getting this configuration right and try get it right the first time. If you have the phase~halls wires on the wrong way this can damage the controller if you try too hard to make it work like this.
One thing to keep in mind, is when you test the motor after you have hooked it up to controller is that the motor should respond to the very slight turn of the throttle, smooth like silk, if you have to do more than the smallest of twists and you get jerking of funny sounds, do not test until you reconfigure or repair what is not working.
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Well the spesifications of honeywell ss41 sensor have a warning about that sensors.
The first is the voltage must be from 4.8 v to 30v . When the controller of Magic pie had a fets failure, the current
must passed from the sensors and there was the first damage.
Then I changed the problematic <<blue signal wire hall sensor>> ,with a new one.
But they are very sencitive... The soldering heat must be below 260 celsius degrees and ONLY FOR 3 seconds. :-X :-X :-X
I cooked the blue sensor at sure as the soldering gun was very hot and I touched the sensor for 5-6 seconds. :'(
Then I connected the wires at the same colores and there was no movement, and started IN FULL THROTLE to
make tests.Another mistake now, I have and the three sensors well cooked. ;D ;D ;D
But I am not sad any more as the motor seems to be o.k. (it spins very fast when I gave a little movment by my hand but not normally) and the voltometer gave me 4.9v from the thin wires B G Y coming from the controller
and the red one too.
I think that the controller is o.k. and must have a protection relay and that cuts off the high current, so it stops sfter 2-3 seconds.Tell me if I am right please.
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The problem is fixed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I changed again the hall sensors and I was very carefull this time with the solder gun.
The colors of the phases was the same with controllers colors, so when I twist a little the throtlle the wheel started running slowly.
Then I ride the bike for about 10 km and I did every test to the motor.
Now the motor is more powerfull and you can feel the differense from the sound.
If I twist the trotttle without me on the bike, the wheel starts to spin.... ;) ;) ;) ;)
So the internal controller maybe is smoother than the infineon one, but is less powerfull and very sensitive.
If anyone want to buy that motor believe me it is very strong motor, buy a good external controller, spend a few hours to
connect them all, and you must have the best electric bike of the market.
Thank you all for your help. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The problem is fixed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_thumb_up_230608.GIF)
It's good to hear you've finally been able to sort the hall sensors, and from your description, it sounds like it was definitely worth the extra work required to fit the external controller as well!
Now you can start using your Pie instead of working on it.(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/everyday_wink_230608.GIF)
Alan