Magic Pie III stops after rainy weather

[User1]

I've just discovered that there is another problem: the throttle doesn't work when lights are on. The only way I can ride with lights and the motor turned on is to press the throttle, press the cruise control button and after that turn the lights on. I have to turn the lights off every time I want to change the speed... Any ideas why this happens?

More problems soon to come

[Bikemad]

P. S. The dealer (from Poland) told me that because I took out my "easy replaceable" controller, my warranty is void. And that the manufacturer doesn't advertise Magic Pie as waterproof.

Perhaps you should ask him to watch this video on the GM website.

I've just discovered that there is another problem: the throttle doesn't work when lights are on.

What lights are you using?
I had a similar problem when I tried using a 3 Watt LED headlight on my MP4, but in my case the motor started on its own when I switched the lights on.

Alan
 

[User1]

Thanks for the link. To be honest, I only knew about "water-proof integral wiring" (http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/MagicPie3G-GoLive.jpg) and "waterproof connections" (http://youtu.be/t1f-PA5el2o?t=2m10s) which doesn't exactly mean that the whole motor is waterproof. But I've assumed that if something is sold as an "e-bike conversion kit", then it automatically means that you can ride it in any weather conditions (unless explicitly stated otherwise). Imagine that you buy a bike or a car and you hear that it's completely normal that it breaks down after driving in rain because "the manufacturer doesn't advertise it as waterproof"!

I use GM lights like these:
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-74-led_front_bicycle_light_with_horn#to_products
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-75-led_rear_bicycle_light#to_products

I had no problems with using these lights with internal controller. But it seems that the only way I can use the throttle while the lights are on is to connect them directly to the battery wires and find some other lights switch?

[Supchrgamx]

just an idea
check the cut off wires in the wiring harness, the insulation around the wires shrinks back and the wires touch
had weird stuff happen to  me until I shrinked wrap the wires seperately
now it only shuts down when the bms gets wet

[Bikemad]

I use GM lights like these:
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-74-led_front_bicycle_light_with_horn#to_products
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-75-led_rear_bicycle_light#to_products

I had no problems with using these lights with internal controller. But it seems that the only way I can use the throttle while the lights are on is to connect them directly to the battery wires and find some other lights switch?

I'm wondering whether you may have a bad connection on one of the throttle wires where they plugs into the external controller harness?

If you leave the feed from the switch direct to the lights, but don't use the ground connection on the harness, and then ground your lights direct to the battery - connection on the controller instead to see if it overcomes your throttle problem.

If that doesn't work you can simply fit another switch. One of these handlebar switches on ebay should work fine with those LED lights:

   

Alan
 

[User1]

So my modded MPIII stopped working again after riding in rain...

This time it was very unlikely that the water caused any damage to the controller. I've opened the waterproof controller box and I haven't found any water inside. The battery seems also to be OK - I've installed Cycle Analyst and it shows the right voltage when I turn the battery on. Almost everything works - the LEDs on the throttle light up, lights and the horn work, the wheel turns easily (but regenerative braking works if I squeeze the brake lever). Except that the motor doesn't work. Indeed, while riding my e-bike in rain a few weeks ago, once I pressed the throttle, but there was no response from the motor. And nothing changed up till now.

I thought that the water came inside the throttle and that's why it doesn't work. The problem is that I performed the throttle test and the motor didn't run either. Also, I measured the resistance between the relevant pins on the throttle plug and my multimeter showed 0.12 when the throttle was released (the scale was set to "200MOhm"). I thought that the resistance should change when I press the throttle, but it didn't. Does it mean that the throttle doesn't work? And what else could be wrong? Is it possible that the controller is damaged, but the rain had nothing to do with it?

[Bikemad]

It sounds to me like water has found its way into either the throttle unit itself or perhaps one of the connectors on the main harness and is allowing electricity to flow between the battery feed and the throttle signal through the water.

As you now have an external controller it should be easy to confirm this with a simple check using a voltmeter to measure the voltage on the throttle signal connection "T2":



With the battery turned on, place the black negative meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection and the red positive probe into the "T2" connection. If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.

If water is allowing electricity to flow from the battery feed wire in the harness or throttle, the throttle signal voltage at "T2" is likely to be higher than 0.8V, and if the reading is higher than 1.25V with the throttle released, the motor will be unable to run due to a power safety feature within the controller, and you will have to carefully check the connections and throttle unit to try and locate where the water has found its way in.

Thoroughly dry the connections and apply some petroleum jelly (Vaseline) on the connector plugs to try and prevent any water from re-entering the connector.

You can easily test the motor on the external controller by carefully following these instructions:

• Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
• Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it suddenly spins.
• Turn on the battery power.
• Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to momentarily make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.

If the battery, controller and motor are all OK, you should find that the wheel will instantly spin at maximum speed while the two connections remain joined.

The battery must be turned on before the wire is used to bridge the two connections, if the wire is already in place before the battery is turned on the motor will not run!

Measuring the resistance across throttle pins may work with a simple variable resistance throttle, but is not a good way of checking a hall sensor throttle. You really need to check the voltage on the output signal wire as previously mentioned above.

Alan
 

[User1]

It seems that the problem is more complicated...

With the battery turned on, place the black negative meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection and the red positive probe into the "T2" connection. If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.

If water is allowing electricity to flow from the battery feed wire in the harness or throttle, the throttle signal voltage at "T2" is likely to be higher than 0.8V, and if the reading is higher than 1.25V with the throttle released, the motor will be unable to run due to a power safety feature within the controller, and you will have to carefully check the connections and throttle unit to try and locate where the water has found its way in.

I measured the voltage between "Z/0V" and "T2" and I had a reading of 0V (actually it was ~0.6mV, but it wasn't very different from when the probes are not touching anything at all), no matter if the throttle was operated or not. It was very difficult to insert the probes into the connector (so that they touched metal parts of connections) so I can't guarantee that I measured the voltage correctly, but I tried many times and the result was always the same.

You can easily test the motor on the external controller by carefully following these instructions:

• Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
• Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it suddenly spins.
• Turn on the battery power.
• Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to momentarily make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.

If the battery, controller and motor are all OK, you should find that the wheel will instantly spin at maximum speed while the two connections remain joined.

The battery must be turned on before the wire is used to bridge the two connections, if the wire is already in place before the battery is turned on the motor will not run!

After many trials at least the wheel was spinning for a fraction of second, but I couldn't reproduce that effect. I think I made a good connection between the "T1/5V" and "T2", because the controller makes quiet high-frequency sound while it's turned on and that sound changed when I made a connection (it's very quiet, but I have good hearing ). The voltage between "T1/5V" and "T2" was 5V (at least when the connector plug was unplugged).

Can any conclusions be drawn from these tests?

[Bikemad]

I suggest you re-check the voltage on the "T1/5V" connection with the 12 pin connector plugged in by inserting the black meter probe into the "Battery B-" connection (ensuring it has good contact with the metal connector) and then use a paper clip or safety pin etc. to get far enough into the connector housing to make a good contact with the "T1/5V" metal contact inside the 12 pin connector.

If you cannot get a 5V reading with the 12 pin connector plugged in, try unplugging the pedelec (PAS) connector before checking the voltage again.

If you can consistently get 5V with the pedelec connector unplugged, but it falls to 0V when the connector is plugged in, I would suspect a short circuit between the 5V feed "P1" and the ground connection "P2" somewhere on the pedelec sensor wiring.

If you cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with the pedelec unplugged, try unplugging the 12 way connector at the same time and then check the voltage on "T1/5V" again.
If it then reads 5V, I would suspect there is a short between the +5v throttle feed and the throttle ground connection either on the throttle lead/throttle unit or the main harness (dependant upon how your throttle connects to the controller).

However, if you still cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with both the pedelec and 12 pin connectors unplugged, try also unplugging the hall sensor plug and checking the voltage on "T1/5V" yet again.

If you now find a good 5V reading on "T1/5V" (which was not present when the hall sensor plug was plugged in) you will need to look for a short circuit somewhere on the hall sensor wiring between the red 5V feed and the black ground connection.

Please note that as the throttle unit, pedelec sensor and motor hall sensors all share the same common 5V supply and ground connections, so a short circuit to ground on any one of these 5V supplies will prevent the motor from running.

It should be possible to test run the motor in sensorless mode by carefully following these instructions:

• Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
• Unplug the pedelec (PAS) connector plug from the controller.
• Unplug the Hall sensor connector plug from the controller.
• Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it hopefully spins.
• Turn on the battery power.
• Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
• Spin the wheel very carefully by hand to start it running, but make sure that you keep your fingers etc. well away from the spokes and the motor itself.

Alan
 

[User1]

I suggest you re-check the voltage on the "T1/5V" connection with the 12 pin connector plugged in by inserting the black meter probe into the "Battery B-" connection (ensuring it has good contact with the metal connector) and then use a paper clip or safety pin etc. to get far enough into the connector housing to make a good contact with the "T1/5V" metal contact inside the 12 pin connector.

If you cannot get a 5V reading with the 12 pin connector plugged in, try unplugging the pedelec (PAS) connector before checking the voltage again.

If you can consistently get 5V with the pedelec connector unplugged, but it falls to 0V when the connector is plugged in, I would suspect a short circuit between the 5V feed "P1" and the ground connection "P2" somewhere on the pedelec sensor wiring.

If you cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with the pedelec unplugged, try unplugging the 12 way connector at the same time and then check the voltage on "T1/5V" again.
If it then reads 5V, I would suspect there is a short between the +5v throttle feed and the throttle ground connection either on the throttle lead/throttle unit or the main harness (dependant upon how your throttle connects to the controller).

However, if you still cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with both the pedelec and 12 pin connectors unplugged, try also unplugging the hall sensor plug and checking the voltage on "T1/5V" yet again.

If you now find a good 5V reading on "T1/5V" (which was not present when the hall sensor plug was plugged in) you will need to look for a short circuit somewhere on the hall sensor wiring between the red 5V feed and the black ground connection.

Please note that as the throttle unit, pedelec sensor and motor hall sensors all share the same common 5V supply and ground connections, so a short circuit to ground on any one of these 5V supplies will prevent the motor from running.

I get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" every time (regardless of what's connected), it seems to be no problem with that.

However,  I've done my best, but I still get a reading of 0V on "T2" (not "T1/5V") no matter if throttle is operated or not. It seems that I insert the probe into the connector correctly, because I immediately got a reading of 5V on "T1/5V", but 0V "T2".

It should be possible to test run the motor in sensorless mode by carefully following these instructions:

• Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
• Unplug the pedelec (PAS) connector plug from the controller.
• Unplug the Hall sensor connector plug from the controller.
• Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it hopefully spins.
• Turn on the battery power.
• Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
• Spin the wheel very carefully by hand to start it running, but make sure that you keep your fingers etc. well away from the spokes and the motor itself.

Alan

Unfortunately, the motor doesn't work in sensorless mode even if everything is disconnected (Hall sensors, PAS, 12 pin connector) - I've tried sensorless mode before so I know how it works. It seems that something is bad with the battery, the motor, the controller or with connections between these. Which is strange because I can't see how it's related to the rain.

[Bikemad]

I get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" every time (regardless of what's connected), it seems to be no problem with that.

However,  I've done my best, but I still get a reading of 0V on "T2" (not "T1/5V") no matter if throttle is operated or not. It seems that I insert the probe into the connector correctly, because I immediately got a reading of 5V on "T1/5V", but 0V "T2".

I think you may have a problem with either the throttle hall sensor or the wiring that connects it to the controller (unless the controller has somehow shorted out the throttle signal internally).

If the throttle hall sensor is receiving a 5V supply but its signal output is still 0V, either the hall sensor has failed and is no longer sending out the correct signal voltage (between 0.8 and 4.5V) or the signal output wire is shorted to ground somewhere which is causing the 0V reading.

If you have a soldered connection on the signal wire between the throttle unit and the controller connection "T2", I would suggest unsoldering it first and then re-checking the output voltage on the throttle side with the wires separated.

If the voltage is still 0V on the throttle signal wire (with the wire separated from the controller) it is probably just a failed hall sensor and not a controller fault. But if the signal voltage is between 0.8 and 4.5V (with the wire separated from the controller) the throttle signal wire going to the controller will be shorted to ground somewhere in the controller's external wiring or even inside the controller.

If you have the thumb throttle, it can be taken apart quite easily to check voltage readings on the three wires connected to the hall sensor.

In the following picture the Hall sensor wires are as follows:

• White = +5V
• Black = Ground (0V)
• Green = Signal output (0.8-4.5V)

Use a clean sharp dressmaking pin or small safety pin to puncture the insulation of the wires to allow the voltage to be measured by touching the voltmeter's red probe against the pin (black probe connected to "Battery B-" terminal again).

Unfortunately, if you have the twist throttle, it is very difficult to take it apart without damaging the plastic cover, so it is not very easy to check the wiring inside.

Alan
 

[User1]

And yet it moves!

I begin to understand how this stuff works, so I decided to conduct my own experiment

You wrote that:

If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.

Actually, 5V is a bit higher than 4.5V which may prevent the motor from running. So I wanted to try with voltage which indeed is not higher than 4.5 V, but not lower than 0.8V. So I took a standard battery with a voltage of ~1.5V, connected the negative pole to "Z/0V" and the positive pole to "T2". The wheel moved a bit, but just a few millimetres. So I tried with two batteries connected in series. This time the wheel began to spin pretty fast! Now at least I know that the controller is OK.

Thanks for all the information and the pictures of a throttle. I'll open it up and will try to fix it