GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Ernie_13 on June 19, 2013, 01:28:56 AM
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Hi guys :-\
If there is anybody who would be able to help, I will be very thankful.
I used my MP III front wheel in rainy weather (as GM proofs they are full waterproof). After few hours, suddenly it stopped to react on throttle, even lights on throttle were ON. And wheel had small resistant when I wanted to turn it by hand or by pedaling. My MP III is almost new as I ordered it directly from GM-China 2 months ago.
First what I considered was that water got into engine so I let it dry for 2 days in a bit warm garage. But nothing changed. Even fact that turning wheel is a bit hard (stucking). As GM says wheels are waterproof, I was thinking that it could be water in contacts (joints of cables) because from 3 cables to use I use only "throttle" one. But I had all the rest covered by tape. After 3 days of waiting to dry and trying to use even extra throttle I´ve got still no reaction of wheel (even lights on throttle were ON). So I decided to open wheel to see if there is water. I found out that inside it was dry and important parts were covered by silicon. Only water I found was on the wall of one of covers. (opposite side to build-in controller) But nothing on wires, axle or controller.
Inside of the wheel nothing seemed to be damaged. I could NOT get into controller because even I removed screws the cover was like glued and it seemed to be easy damaged if I would use power. Any idea how to open it??? As well I totally could not move with black screws on cover wall of the engine which are for accessing build-in controller without taking wheel apart.
As last option I decided to conect wheel to PC software from GM to reset controller. Below is picture screen what I got when I hit "GET CONFIG". In China they said they set it to 48V/750W. After I tried to set it to "factory settings" but all values remained same. This solution did not help.
Does anybody have any idea where can be the problem and how to fix it? I am not very skilled in electricity. But I have at least voltmeter and know some basics. As well I tried to contact GM-china about help and warranty possibilities, buy there was no response yet (after 2 days). Does anybody have experience with warranty in China? I even can not imagine how it works, because just sending that wheel there and back is similar price like new engine. :o
Few pictures:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/louarsab/32a845dd-0876-43b1-8352-b68541366cba.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/louarsab/media/32a845dd-0876-43b1-8352-b68541366cba.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/louarsab/IMG_1621.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/louarsab/media/IMG_1621.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/louarsab/IMG_1611.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/louarsab/media/IMG_1611.jpg.html)
PS: Is there any technician who is able to fix engines from Golden Motor in Denmark? If yes please contact me. ;)
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The controller tends to be stuck on with silicon sealant to seal the joint and will need to be gently prised away from its housing by inserting knife blade or a thin screwdriver tip etc.. Check out Gary's controller swapping video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofXCj_Dd10U) for more details.
The Allen bolt on the internal stator cover should not need to be removed as there are no accessible connections underneath it, but a good quality Allen key should undo it if you really do need to remove the cover.
Alan
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Thank you very much Alan for information. Do you have any idea what could happen and how can I try to repair it? :-\
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It's difficult to say what might have caused the failure, but if the wheel is difficult to turn since the motor stopped working, but it was relatively easy to turn before, it is most likely to be the controller itself that has failed.
Usually it is a simple matter of just replacing the controller assembly to repair the problem, and as yours is only two months old, the controller should be covered by the warranty.
You will need to contact GM direct and explain the problem to them.
Alan
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I´m trying to speak with GM-China and they are not responding to me. Just 3 days after my 1st email, guy wrote that it may be controller and then stoped to respond at all. Has anybody experience with warranty issues in China?
CONTROLLER UPDATE: I opened it today and can not say that something looks wrong (or burned). So I measured resistance between 3 main cables (yellow-blue-green).
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BLUE - GREEN = 70kOhm
BLUE - YELLOW = 70kOhm
YELLOW - GREEN = 103kOhm
-----------------------------------
Does it saying anything to anybody? :-[
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If that is the resistance measured across the disconnected phase wires something is definitely wrong, as the resistance should be less than 0.5 ohm on each pair of wires, so 70k-103k does not make sense.
I suggest you ignore those meter readings, reassemble the motor, and then check out the lower part of this recent post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4935.msg28777#msg28777).
Alan
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I had a similar issue after owning a MP3 for a few months, then on one day it started to rain heavily half way through my journey to work.
After riding through a few large puddles at low speed the throttle started to stutter, and eventually had no throttle at all.
So it would say they are water resistant, but not water proof from my experience.
I replaced the internal controller with the external BAC-281 controller, which has more features in terms of diagnostics and overrides : http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/DIY-ebikekit.php
And I mounted it high up in a waterproof holder near the handlebars:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Type-Bicycle-Cycling-Bike-Frame-Pannier-Front-Tube-Black-Bag-For-Cell-Phone/310638757406
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So I got problem fixed by replacing of internal control box with new one from GM. After that I sealed everyhting with silicon but have to say that always when is rainy weather my engine still gets crazy (on/off iteself) and needs to wait 1 week until it dry out. Im very surprised why is this happening and same problem has 3 more guys in my city, but only when it is rainy.
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Hi there,
since i've been there before (trouble with internal controller) I can frankly say that the internal controller is rubbish. the external controller from GM the BAC28.. is good. been using it ever since I never had any problems with it again.
good luck!
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Hi
My 4th internal controller blew on the way home tonight. Hasn't even been near a drop of water over the last couple of months this time. Not inspected it yet but will no doubt find some corrosion there (dipped the whole thing in Corrosion X for this build but has made no difference)
Was just looking at the GM external controllers. Is there any benefit in my buying the 100A version (BAC-0501) over the 50A.
Will I see any performance benefit?
Cheers
Ben
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Having so much problems with my MPIII, it would be a shame if I missed the one described in this thread...
So, when I was riding my e-bike during rainy weather, I noticed that sometimes the motor starts even when I'm not pressing the throttle. I think that it even didn't react to regen braking, so I had to turn the battery off.
After some time I tried to ride again, but I had an opposite problem - regen braking turned on every time when I powered the battery on. So I disconnected the battery, but even then I couldn't ride faster than about 8 km/h, because above that speed the motor started to brake (apparently enough energy was created for the controller to "work"). Disconnecting the motor from everything else (including brakes) didn't help either.
So is it a broken controller or maybe there are other possibilities? I took the controller out after a few days and everything looks fine with it:
(http://i.imgur.com/mTvIKlfl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/mTvIKlf)
I was thinking about sealing the controller if I receive a new one. But is it OK to seal the capacitors' tops (as they seem not to be sealed intentionally)? And what about this sheet metal on which I marked colors of the wires?
As can be seen in this photo, there are 2 wires sticking out. Is it correct, and can shortening these wires cause some problems?
I'm also going to check if I can seal anything inside the motor, so I tried to open the cover, but it moved only a bit:
(http://i.imgur.com/vCFmCAcl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/vCFmCAc)
I even tried to use such "brute force" method:
(http://i.imgur.com/J4oyBmKl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/J4oyBmK)
But it didn't help (of course I was careful not to damage the motor windings inside). The cover moved a bit, but when I removed the hammer, the cover returned to it's previous position.
Am I doing something wrong, or maybe I should use more force (or a bigger hammer ;) )?
Also, it's a bit strange that now the cover rotates freely, but I can't move the axle:
(http://i.imgur.com/duOG3HUl.png) (http://imgur.com/duOG3HU)
(http://i.imgur.com/K1RP3Evl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/K1RP3Ev)
Maybe I'll try to reset the controller, but does this (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2632.msg16615#msg16615) manual apply also to MP3?
Another possibility is to use an external controller, but I'd also have to buy new brakes, throttle etc. - or cut&solder wires from ones which I received with my kit... Are there at least some photos or videos showing how to do it properly?
So instead I'll probably make an external controller from internal controller, i. e. take it out and put in a waterproof box in a place less exposed to water. However, is it OK to put internal controller in a sealed box? Doesn't it need some cooling (though I'm going to use it at 250 W)? Does a box need to be made from metal, or a plastic one would suffice?
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Having so much problems with my MPIII, it would be a shame if I missed the one described in this thread...
So, when I was riding my e-bike during rainy weather, I noticed that sometimes the motor starts even when I'm not pressing the throttle. I think that it even didn't react to regen braking, so I had to turn the battery off.
After some time I tried to ride again, but I had an opposite problem - regen braking turned on every time when I powered the battery on. So I disconnected the battery, but even then I couldn't ride faster than about 8 km/h, because above that speed the motor started to brake (apparently enough energy was created for the controller to "work"). Disconnecting the motor from everything else (including brakes) didn't help either.
So is it a broken controller or maybe there are other possibilities?
I don't know whether water in the connector can cause the braking problem you have but it can definitely cause the motor to run without touching the throttle.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4625.msg26695;topicseen#msg26695) to see how water can affect the throttle operation.
If everything is bone dry and the braking problem still persists with the motor harness unplugged, it could be the controller that is causing it.
I took the controller out after a few days and everything looks fine with it:
(http://i.imgur.com/mTvIKlfl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/mTvIKlf)
I was thinking about sealing the controller if I receive a new one. But is it OK to seal the capacitors' tops (as they seem not to be sealed intentionally)?
It should be OK to seal over the ends of the capacitors with a thin layer of silicone sealant.
The ends of the capacitors are usually weakened to allow it to rupture in case of excessive pressure build up should the capacitors fail:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/SplitCap.JPG)
And what about this sheet metal on which I marked colors of the wires?
The aluminium heat sink plate could be painted with some black Hammerite paint to protect against corrosion if you want.
As can be seen in this photo, there are 2 wires sticking out. Is it correct, and can shortening these wires cause some problems?
The wires I'm looking at appear to be two of the three phase wires, shortening these might make it difficult to reattach them and fit the controller back in the correct position again.
I'm also going to check if I can seal anything inside the motor, so I tried to open the cover, but it moved only a bit:
(http://i.imgur.com/vCFmCAcl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/vCFmCAc)
I even tried to use such "brute force" method:
(http://i.imgur.com/J4oyBmKl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/J4oyBmK)
But it didn't help (of course I was careful not to damage the motor windings inside). The cover moved a bit, but when I removed the hammer, the cover returned to it's previous position.
Am I doing something wrong, or maybe I should use more force (or a bigger hammer ;) )?
The cover is a tight fit on the bearing, and the bearing can sometimes be a very snug fit on the stator housing.I suspect that you simply pulled the whole stator assembly out and the strong magnets pulled it back in again!
Also, it's a bit strange that now the cover rotates freely, but I can't move the axle:
(http://i.imgur.com/duOG3HUl.png) (http://imgur.com/duOG3HU)
(http://i.imgur.com/K1RP3Evl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/K1RP3Ev)
As you have dislodged the side cover the stator may no longer be held away from the magnets. If the stator is stuck against some of the magnets, it will be very difficult to turn
Maybe I'll try to reset the controller, but does this (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2632.msg16615#msg16615) manual apply also to MP3?
Those instructions were for one of the very early external GM cruise controllers and I don't think that procedure will do anything on the MPIII controller.
Another possibility is to use an external controller, but I'd also have to buy new brakes, throttle etc. - or cut&solder wires from ones which I received with my kit... Are there at least some photos or videos showing how to do it properly?
Here are some photos showing the modifications to the wiring on the motor to allow an external controller to be used:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4269.0;attach=5632;image)
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4269.0;attach=5634;image)
So instead I'll probably make an external controller from internal controller, i. e. take it out and put in a waterproof box in a place less exposed to water. However, is it OK to put internal controller in a sealed box? Doesn't it need some cooling (though I'm going to use it at 250 W)? Does a box need to be made from metal, or a plastic one would suffice?
If you used a rigid box and cut a hole the correct size for the controller you could leave the outer side of the controller exposed to cooling air and seal the joint between the controller and the box with silicone sealant before you bolt it into place.
You would also need to seal the hole in the centre where the axle fits with a suitably sized rubber blanking grommet bonded in with some more silicone sealant.
A metal box would help to dissipate the heat more efficiently
If water is getting into the controller it might be getting in through the main cable entry point, and I suspect it is also likely to find its way into the motor through the bearings which are only shielded and not equipped with rubber seals to help keep the water out:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/MagicPiebearings.JPG)
Water in the motor will evaporate when it gets warm and is likely to condense onto the controller unit which will usually cool down quicker than the stator assembly when the bike is parked up after a long run.
Putting some petroleum jelly into each of the push connectors should help to prevent corrosion and will hopefully keep rainwater out. You can also seal the main connector between the motor and the main wiring harness by taping around the joint with insulation tape to help keep any water out, but I think water could eventually find its way into the throttle assembly if it is subjected to strong winds and heavy rain for any length of time.
It would also be worth running some thin cyanoacrylate glue around each of the cables on the rubber multi junction block unit in the middle of the motor harness to prevent water getting inside as a result of capillary action.
Alan
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Bikemad, thanks again for such a comprehensive reply!
I'm not sure if we were talking about the same wires, so I've marked them with a red line:
(http://i.gyazo.com/dbf026e8828c1254ad2e96ef0e079078.png)
I think I didn't put it correctly (sorry for my English :) ), but I wanted to ask if touching (not insulated) ends of these little wires against each other can cause the controller to function not properly?
It seems almost impossible for me to waterproof the motor completely (bearings etc.), so as I planned before, when I receive a new controller, I'll put it in a sealed box outside the motor. I'll keep you posted on the results :)
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I was looking at the two phase wires sticking out of the controller housing in the photo below, not the ones circled in red on you last post. ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/vCFmCAcl.jpg)
Touching those wires together is unlikely to make any difference whatsoever as they appear to be unused wires from the motor harness which are only utilised on the more recent vector controllers.
Alan
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So eventually the dealer agreed to sell me an external controller with a discount and replace the USB cable and modify the connections for free. Now the motor works again!
The only problem I have is that the PAS is not working. I've read that in order to activate it I should press the cruise control button twice and get a beep, but it doesn't happen. Do these instructions apply to BAC-028x controller too?
P. S. The dealer (from Poland) told me that because I took out my "easy replacable" controller, my warranty is void. And that the manufacturer doesn't advertise Magic Pie as waterproof. I just tell this to warn others. Fortunately, what he actually did was much better than what he said.
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I've just discovered that there is another problem: the throttle doesn't work when lights are on. The only way I can ride with lights and the motor turned on is to press the throttle, press the cruise control button and after that turn the lights on. I have to turn the lights off every time I want to change the speed... Any ideas why this happens?
More problems soon to come :D
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P. S. The dealer (from Poland) told me that because I took out my "easy replaceable" controller, my warranty is void. And that the manufacturer doesn't advertise Magic Pie as waterproof.
Perhaps you should ask him to watch this video (http://www.goldenmotor.com/MP3-WaterProofDemo.htm) on the GM website.
I've just discovered that there is another problem: the throttle doesn't work when lights are on.
What lights are you using?
I had a similar problem (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5389.msg30876;topicseen#msg30876) when I tried using a 3 Watt LED headlight on my MP4, but in my case the motor started on its own when I switched the lights on.
Alan
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Thanks for the link. To be honest, I only knew about "water-proof integral wiring" (http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/MagicPie3G-GoLive.jpg) and "waterproof connections" (http://youtu.be/t1f-PA5el2o?t=2m10s) which doesn't exactly mean that the whole motor is waterproof. But I've assumed that if something is sold as an "e-bike conversion kit", then it automatically means that you can ride it in any weather conditions (unless explicitly stated otherwise). Imagine that you buy a bike or a car and you hear that it's completely normal that it breaks down after driving in rain because "the manufacturer doesn't advertise it as waterproof"!
I use GM lights like these:
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-74-led_front_bicycle_light_with_horn#to_products
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-75-led_rear_bicycle_light#to_products
I had no problems with using these lights with internal controller. But it seems that the only way I can use the throttle while the lights are on is to connect them directly to the battery wires and find some other lights switch?
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just an idea
check the cut off wires in the wiring harness, the insulation around the wires shrinks back and the wires touch
had weird stuff happen to me until I shrinked wrap the wires seperately
now it only shuts down when the bms gets wet
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I use GM lights like these:
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-74-led_front_bicycle_light_with_horn#to_products
http://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-32/c-38-wiata_rowerowe_led/product-75-led_rear_bicycle_light#to_products
I had no problems with using these lights with internal controller. But it seems that the only way I can use the throttle while the lights are on is to connect them directly to the battery wires and find some other lights switch?
I'm wondering whether you may have a bad connection on one of the throttle wires where they plugs into the external controller harness?
If you leave the feed from the switch direct to the lights, but don't use the ground connection on the harness, and then ground your lights direct to the battery - connection on the controller instead to see if it overcomes your throttle problem.
If that doesn't work you can simply fit another switch. One of these handlebar switches on ebay should work fine with those LED lights:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzAwWDcwMA==/z/WjYAAOSwPe1T0h7J/$_12.JPG) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331089046891) (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDYwMA==/z/-kYAAOSw8cNUNRT5/$_12.JPG) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Universal-Handlebar-Motorcycle-Kill-Switch-ON-OFF-Button-Bullet-Connector/281462370655) (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAxMFgxMDEw/z/gAYAAOSwQM9UZBmL/$_57.JPG) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Handlebar-Motorcycle-Accident-Hazard-Light-Switch-ON-OFF-Button-SY/221604118180)
Alan
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So my modded MPIII stopped working again after riding in rain...
This time it was very unlikely that the water caused any damage to the controller. I've opened the waterproof controller box and I haven't found any water inside. The battery seems also to be OK - I've installed Cycle Analyst and it shows the right voltage when I turn the battery on. Almost everything works - the LEDs on the throttle light up, lights and the horn work, the wheel turns easily (but regenerative braking works if I squeeze the brake lever). Except that the motor doesn't work. Indeed, while riding my e-bike in rain a few weeks ago, once I pressed the throttle, but there was no response from the motor. And nothing changed up till now.
I thought that the water came inside the throttle and that's why it doesn't work. The problem is that I performed the throttle test (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4599.msg26581#msg26581) and the motor didn't run either. Also, I measured the resistance between the relevant pins on the throttle plug and my multimeter showed 0.12 when the throttle was released (the scale was set to "200MOhm"). I thought that the resistance should change when I press the throttle, but it didn't. Does it mean that the throttle doesn't work? And what else could be wrong? Is it possible that the controller is damaged, but the rain had nothing to do with it?
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It sounds to me like water has found its way into either the throttle unit itself or perhaps one of the connectors on the main harness and is allowing electricity to flow between the battery feed and the throttle signal through the water (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4625.msg26695;topicseen#msg26695).
As you now have an external controller it should be easy to confirm this with a simple check using a voltmeter to measure the voltage on the throttle signal connection "T2":
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/BAC028controller.JPG)
With the battery turned on, place the black negative meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection and the red positive probe into the "T2" connection. If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.
If water is allowing electricity to flow from the battery feed wire in the harness or throttle, the throttle signal voltage at "T2" is likely to be higher than 0.8V, and if the reading is higher than 1.25V with the throttle released, the motor will be unable to run due to a power safety feature within the controller, and you will have to carefully check the connections and throttle unit to try and locate where the water has found its way in.
Thoroughly dry the connections and apply some petroleum jelly (Vaseline) on the connector plugs to try and prevent any water from re-entering the connector.
You can easily test the motor on the external controller by carefully following these instructions:
- Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
- Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it suddenly spins.
- Turn on the battery power.
- Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to momentarily make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
If the battery, controller and motor are all OK, you should find that the wheel will instantly spin at maximum speed while the two connections remain joined.
The battery must be turned on before the wire is used to bridge the two connections, if the wire is already in place before the battery is turned on the motor will not run!
Measuring the resistance across throttle pins may work with a simple variable resistance throttle, but is not a good way of checking a hall sensor throttle. You really need to check the voltage on the output signal wire as previously mentioned above.
Alan
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It seems that the problem is more complicated...
With the battery turned on, place the black negative meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection and the red positive probe into the "T2" connection. If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.
If water is allowing electricity to flow from the battery feed wire in the harness or throttle, the throttle signal voltage at "T2" is likely to be higher than 0.8V, and if the reading is higher than 1.25V with the throttle released, the motor will be unable to run due to a power safety feature within the controller, and you will have to carefully check the connections and throttle unit to try and locate where the water has found its way in.
I measured the voltage between "Z/0V" and "T2" and I had a reading of 0V (actually it was ~0.6mV, but it wasn't very different from when the probes are not touching anything at all), no matter if the throttle was operated or not. It was very difficult to insert the probes into the connector (so that they touched metal parts of connections) so I can't guarantee that I measured the voltage correctly, but I tried many times and the result was always the same.
You can easily test the motor on the external controller by carefully following these instructions:
- Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
- Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it suddenly spins.
- Turn on the battery power.
- Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to momentarily make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
If the battery, controller and motor are all OK, you should find that the wheel will instantly spin at maximum speed while the two connections remain joined.
The battery must be turned on before the wire is used to bridge the two connections, if the wire is already in place before the battery is turned on the motor will not run!
After many trials at least the wheel was spinning for a fraction of second, but I couldn't reproduce that effect. I think I made a good connection between the "T1/5V" and "T2", because the controller makes quiet high-frequency sound while it's turned on and that sound changed when I made a connection (it's very quiet, but I have good hearing :) ). The voltage between "T1/5V" and "T2" was 5V (at least when the connector plug was unplugged).
Can any conclusions be drawn from these tests?
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I suggest you re-check the voltage on the "T1/5V" connection with the 12 pin connector plugged in by inserting the black meter probe into the "Battery B-" connection (ensuring it has good contact with the metal connector) and then use a paper clip or safety pin etc. to get far enough into the connector housing to make a good contact with the "T1/5V" metal contact inside the 12 pin connector.
If you cannot get a 5V reading with the 12 pin connector plugged in, try unplugging the pedelec (PAS) connector before checking the voltage again.
If you can consistently get 5V with the pedelec connector unplugged, but it falls to 0V when the connector is plugged in, I would suspect a short circuit between the 5V feed "P1" and the ground connection "P2" somewhere on the pedelec sensor wiring.
If you cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with the pedelec unplugged, try unplugging the 12 way connector at the same time and then check the voltage on "T1/5V" again.
If it then reads 5V, I would suspect there is a short between the +5v throttle feed and the throttle ground connection either on the throttle lead/throttle unit or the main harness (dependant upon how your throttle connects to the controller).
However, if you still cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with both the pedelec and 12 pin connectors unplugged, try also unplugging the hall sensor plug and checking the voltage on "T1/5V" yet again.
If you now find a good 5V reading on "T1/5V" (which was not present when the hall sensor plug was plugged in) you will need to look for a short circuit somewhere on the hall sensor wiring between the red 5V feed and the black ground connection.
Please note that as the throttle unit, pedelec sensor and motor hall sensors all share the same common 5V supply and ground connections, so a short circuit to ground on any one of these 5V supplies will prevent the motor from running.
It should be possible to test run the motor in sensorless mode by carefully following these instructions:
- Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
- Unplug the pedelec (PAS) connector plug from the controller.
- Unplug the Hall sensor connector plug from the controller.
- Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it hopefully spins.
- Turn on the battery power.
- Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
- Spin the wheel very carefully by hand to start it running, but make sure that you keep your fingers etc. well away from the spokes and the motor itself.
Alan
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I suggest you re-check the voltage on the "T1/5V" connection with the 12 pin connector plugged in by inserting the black meter probe into the "Battery B-" connection (ensuring it has good contact with the metal connector) and then use a paper clip or safety pin etc. to get far enough into the connector housing to make a good contact with the "T1/5V" metal contact inside the 12 pin connector.
If you cannot get a 5V reading with the 12 pin connector plugged in, try unplugging the pedelec (PAS) connector before checking the voltage again.
If you can consistently get 5V with the pedelec connector unplugged, but it falls to 0V when the connector is plugged in, I would suspect a short circuit between the 5V feed "P1" and the ground connection "P2" somewhere on the pedelec sensor wiring.
If you cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with the pedelec unplugged, try unplugging the 12 way connector at the same time and then check the voltage on "T1/5V" again.
If it then reads 5V, I would suspect there is a short between the +5v throttle feed and the throttle ground connection either on the throttle lead/throttle unit or the main harness (dependant upon how your throttle connects to the controller).
However, if you still cannot get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" with both the pedelec and 12 pin connectors unplugged, try also unplugging the hall sensor plug and checking the voltage on "T1/5V" yet again.
If you now find a good 5V reading on "T1/5V" (which was not present when the hall sensor plug was plugged in) you will need to look for a short circuit somewhere on the hall sensor wiring between the red 5V feed and the black ground connection.
Please note that as the throttle unit, pedelec sensor and motor hall sensors all share the same common 5V supply and ground connections, so a short circuit to ground on any one of these 5V supplies will prevent the motor from running.
I get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" every time (regardless of what's connected), it seems to be no problem with that.
However, I've done my best, but I still get a reading of 0V on "T2" (not "T1/5V") no matter if throttle is operated or not. It seems that I insert the probe into the connector correctly, because I immediately got a reading of 5V on "T1/5V", but 0V "T2".
It should be possible to test run the motor in sensorless mode by carefully following these instructions:
- Unplug the 12 way connector plug from the controller.
- Unplug the pedelec (PAS) connector plug from the controller.
- Unplug the Hall sensor connector plug from the controller.
- Make sure the powered wheel is securely raised off the floor and unable to touch anything when it hopefully spins.
- Turn on the battery power.
- Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to make a connection between the "T1/5V" pin and the "T2" pin on the controller socket.
- Spin the wheel very carefully by hand to start it running, but make sure that you keep your fingers etc. well away from the spokes and the motor itself.
Alan
Unfortunately, the motor doesn't work in sensorless mode even if everything is disconnected (Hall sensors, PAS, 12 pin connector) - I've tried sensorless mode before so I know how it works. It seems that something is bad with the battery, the motor, the controller or with connections between these. Which is strange because I can't see how it's related to the rain.
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I get a 5V reading on "T1/5V" every time (regardless of what's connected), it seems to be no problem with that.
However, I've done my best, but I still get a reading of 0V on "T2" (not "T1/5V") no matter if throttle is operated or not. It seems that I insert the probe into the connector correctly, because I immediately got a reading of 5V on "T1/5V", but 0V "T2".
I think you may have a problem with either the throttle hall sensor or the wiring that connects it to the controller (unless the controller has somehow shorted out the throttle signal internally).
If the throttle hall sensor is receiving a 5V supply but its signal output is still 0V, either the hall sensor has failed and is no longer sending out the correct signal voltage (between 0.8 and 4.5V) or the signal output wire is shorted to ground somewhere which is causing the 0V reading.
If you have a soldered connection on the signal wire between the throttle unit and the controller connection "T2", I would suggest unsoldering it first and then re-checking the output voltage on the throttle side with the wires separated.
If the voltage is still 0V on the throttle signal wire (with the wire separated from the controller) it is probably just a failed hall sensor and not a controller fault. But if the signal voltage is between 0.8 and 4.5V (with the wire separated from the controller) the throttle signal wire going to the controller will be shorted to ground somewhere in the controller's external wiring or even inside the controller.
If you have the thumb throttle, it can be taken apart quite easily (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5324.msg30501;topicseen#msg30501) to check voltage readings on the three wires connected to the hall sensor.
In the following picture the Hall sensor wires are as follows:
- White = +5V
- Black = Ground (0V)
- Green = Signal output (0.8-4.5V)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Thumbthrottle_zps774f14c4.JPG)
Use a clean sharp dressmaking pin or small safety pin to puncture the insulation of the wires to allow the voltage to be measured by touching the voltmeter's red probe against the pin (black probe connected to "Battery B-" terminal again).
Unfortunately, if you have the twist throttle, it is very difficult to take it apart without damaging the plastic cover, so it is not very easy to check the wiring inside.
Alan
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And yet it moves! :)
I begin to understand how this stuff works, so I decided to conduct my own experiment :)
You wrote that:
If everything is working correctly you should have a reading of ~0.8V with the throttle released and it should vary between ~0.8V and ~4.5V when the throttle is operated.
Actually, 5V is a bit higher than 4.5V which may prevent the motor from running. So I wanted to try with voltage which indeed is not higher than 4.5 V, but not lower than 0.8V. So I took a standard battery with a voltage of ~1.5V, connected the negative pole to "Z/0V" and the positive pole to "T2". The wheel moved a bit, but just a few millimetres. So I tried with two batteries connected in series. This time the wheel began to spin pretty fast! Now at least I know that the controller is OK.
Thanks for all the information and the pictures of a throttle. I'll open it up and will try to fix it :)